At What Point Does A Protest Become A Riot?

[Lustful Bride]

The national guard are doing the same sort of horrible acts against civilians, against those they're allegedly supposed to be protecting. I don't see bringing them in as a solution. A good solution would be upending our police and prison systems, but they don't want to even entertain that. They want to keep up appearances, do photo ops kneeling with protestors then soon after put on masks and teargas everyone there. The state simply does not care.

Fair point. The law shouldn't pick favorites or kick others down, neither should the guard. But that kind of honesty and care is rare even in the best of times.

[Formless]

That is literally what's failed to happen for years now. See my previous remarks about Rice, Castile, and Garner. See what I said about how the response of authority to murders of this kind is to slow-walk it through the courts (much more slowly than Floyd was slow-walked through due process). How district attorneys throw the matter to grand juries with conflicting information and make weak cases and then throw their hands up in helplessness when those grand juries fail to return bills of indictment.

Convince me that if a member of the public had been the subject of that video instead of Chauvin, if it had been a carpenter kneeling across the neck of a bound man, that the prosecutor would have been concerned with process and a careful, slow, deliberate investigation. Convince me that the prosecutor wouldn't have lied by omission and implication with that very statement, because anyone who knows anything about the process of prosecution knows that investigations don't stop when charges are filed and arrests made. In short, convince me that the police aren't permitted to wage systematic injustice and inequality and I will agree with your assessment.

I don’t need to convince you because I already agree with you.

My point from the start was not to damage property of people who had nothing to do with the crime you’re protesting against.

No. You're supposed to be angry at the people that commit murder and get away with it and leave the people no choice but to rise up and demand answers.

As I said, a protest is encouraged. Its one tool to make changes.

Just don’t hurt others in your quest for justice.

[MiraMirror]

 I would also like to point out that there are more people there than just protestors.  You've got groups such as the infamous "Proud Boys" stirring the pot.  You've got police, who are being arguably more violent than anyone else by shooting people who aren't even protesting, targeting news crews, blocking cell signals to keep stuff from getting out, shooting people on their own porches, macing kids, destroying gallons of water and milk that friendlies have left for people getting gassed, etc.  Let's also bring up that it started as a peaceful protest.  What ignited it was one person who set fire to the Autozone, and is heavily suspected to be a cop.  His ex-wife identified him, even. 

You also have cops who are purposefully leaving old cop cars ahead of where the riots are and vandalizing them to try framing peaceful protestors and thus turn people against each other.  After the protestors move, they tend to get set on fire by a different group.  It's fucked. 


I'm not a violent person.  I really wish things could always be settled peacefully.  However, I can very clearly see what's wrong with the system in the U.S., why people are frustrated, and why it's come to this.  There have been numerous forms of protest against systemic racism and police brutality.  Taking a knee, attempting to appeal to lawmakers, peaceful protests, etc.  None of them made a lick of change, and that lack of empathy and care, and lack of real punishment for the killers pissed people off.  Stonewall has been mentioned a few times, and yeah.  Police bullied and raided queer people over and over again until finally, it erupted into riots.  That's how things go.  I'm seeing all this and yes, I value human lives over property.  It's unfortunate when someone only has so much to their name, and I do empathize, but the way I see it, if things don't change, there's just going to be more and more lives lost.


Tl;dr:  Don't blame protestors for all the bull going on, multiple factions are present.

Police
Groups trying to incite violence/racial violence
Undercover cops trying to discredit protestors
Protestors
Looters (which also include the aforementioned racist groups, and are largely made up of those individuals).

[Regina Minx]

My point from the start was not to damage property of people who had nothing to do with the crime you’re protesting against.

I won't. But I'm also not going to be more outraged about Targets and Auto Zones that are looted and burned than I am about the injustice that caused the riot. I can deplore those that explore with the long rage of deprivation and hurt the innocent at the same time I empathize with the intolerable conditions under which they live.

[Formless]

I won't. But I'm also not going to be more outraged about Targets and Auto Zones that are looted and burned than I am about the injustice that caused the riot. I can deplore those that explore with the long rage of deprivation and hurt the innocent at the same time I empathize with the intolerable conditions under which they live.

Life is priceless, I'm not contesting that. And what was done can fuel a lot of emotions. For the record, I am not downplaying the tragedy of Floyd's murder. But I hope it doesn't lead up to more tragedies.

Actually now that I think about it, part of me wished the same would happen after the Christchurch incident. I guess that's only human ...

I'll end my contribution to this topic now.

[RedPhoenix]

But I hope it doesn't lead up to more tragedies.

Already has.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867281529/louisville-police-chief-fired-after-black-man-is-shot-to-death

David McAtee used to give the police free food. They let his body rot for half a day in the streets after shooting him.

[Formless]

Already has.

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867281529/louisville-police-chief-fired-after-black-man-is-shot-to-death

David McAtee used to give the police free food. They let his body rot for half a day in the streets after shooting him.

I'm speechless ...

[Aiden]

It is really hard to give the boys in blue the benefit of the doubt when shit like this surfaces.

The worst part about all of this, it has always been the same we just have cameras to catch it now.

[la dame en noir]

I just got from a protest. The police, not only escalated, they arrested peaceful protestors. I was almost arrested myself.

And now Trump has declared protests violent and have called for military interference.

[CrownedSun]

I will freely admit that, personally, I don't think-- even property damage,- is a good thing. I'm totally against any kind of taking a life, or violence, and I generally believe in civility. Hell, I was sad and upset when Osama Bin Laden died because that was the death of a human being and I will never view that as a victory.

...but, at the same time, I don't..

I'm not outraged at the fact that riots are happening. (Even before I realized that a LOT of the problems are caused by police tear gassing peaceful crowds, and worse, which mostly just leaves me feeling sad and feeling like we haven't learned anything in the last 60 years.) I'm, frankly, amazed that they don't happen more. Hell, I'm fairly sure that if things don't radically change, this is going to get worse not better. n' the radical change that I believe needs to happen to prevent that is not greater militarization, martial law, naming antifa as terrorists, or anything of that sort.

I really really hope that no innocents are hurt in this stuff. I even hope that guilty folk aren't hurt in this! In my city, apparently, a cop had a sharp object thrust into his neck. I really REALLY wish that hadn't happened, and I feel bad for him-- for his family and friends,- even if he somehow 'deserved' it. But, at the same time, I don't somehow expect this sort of thing to not happen. I hope Targets aren't burnt down, I was hugely affected when I saw a homeless man lose his shit because someone had started throwing his few personal possessions on a bonfire, I don't want anyone's car to be hurt.

...but, this kind of shit is going to happen..

Because of this society that we've made, because of this system that we've allowed to endure.

It's not a problem that is going to get better by cracking down on the peope protesting, by making them out to be the bad guys. Just like the people getting up and telling spoiled little white kids, "No! Stop! You're going to get us killed! This isn't the way!", that isn't going to make this problem better. It's going to make it worse. I've already heard credible stories from people stuck much closer to these things than I am, about people being chased into dark holes, people fearful of their lives and worried about their safety because of the chaos in the streets. My neighbor, who is maybe a bit crazy, sincerely wishes she could be on the front lines with her husband (who is a cop) and just shoot anyone who gets near to her. n', like, I understand that even if I don't agree with it.

Terrible things lead to terrible things.

n' the fact that we're handling this so badly? It scares me.



Anyway, just my words on the subject.

[Dice]

I have been watching this from the outside (Australian) and getting more and more angry. Like, watching the cops walk down a street, yell at some people standing on their front landing to go inside (Not a legal order) and then living out their fucking COD fantasies (They yelled "Light em up" then shot) when the people stay on their own front landing? Fucking hell. What the fuck do you think the reaction is going to be when you escalate the situation? Hey cops, you look like the bad guys for murdering a man, know what will help? Excessive force. Yea, good one!

So do I condemn the riots? Seems like peace is not an answer, even if you want to be peaceful your going to get shot at. Even if your just press on the sidelines your going to get shot at. Even if your peaceful your going to get abused. As some point the peace just cant hold when one side is looking for a fight and think its owed to them.

The cops are just dam lucky that the people who are protesting are not the kind of fuckwits that LARP with AR15's while screaming about liberty. Because a burnt cop car is different from some moron opening fire on police. Thank fuck that has not happened... yet.

[RedPhoenix]

Yup. So many people getting hurt by the police, not even all protesters. A woman in dallas was just walking home with groceries and the police shot her in the face with that "non lethal" bullet, a reporter lost an eye to one when they shot her in the face too.

Another answer to the question "when does a protest become a riot?" when you tear gas a church for a photo op.

This is from the facebook of a priest from the church Trump just posed in front of.





When you treat Americans this way you make radicals, not doormats.

[CaptainNexus616]

That's just fucking disgusting to do for a photo op

[Thera Regina]

I think a protest becomes a riot when the police use unnecessary force.

[Anouk Daae]

I can't speak for every city, but I know that in mine there are protesters and there are agitators. The protesters are out peacefully. They're sitting, silently, or kneeling in front of an army of police in death-squad-cosplay riot gear. They're terrified, frustrated, and stressed, but they know this is something that NEEDS to be fought for.

The Agitators, however at least here, are alt-right factions coming out with guns, mingling through the protester crowds, shouting threats to the cops or blatantly shouting out racial slurs to instigate violence. THEY are the ones looting in an aim to change the protester narrative. The protesters in my city stop the agitators whenever they see them. They sometimes physically restrain them from burning cars or breaking into storefronts. The protesters are also out there every morning after, to help clean the streets and help shop owners board up their windows.

The agitators know these protests are getting media coverage, so they're trying to incite violence to make the Protesters look like they're something they're not. Here, the protests stay protests. Peaceful but pissed. I'm willing to bet we're not the only city where this is happening.

[Beorning]

Some thoughts / questions:

1. Has anyone tried to make some wide-scale study / interview on what do the American cops think about this situation? These events don't show them in good light. But I can't imagine that a typical police officer in the US is a brute who happily gasses and shoots innocent people... And if the majority of the US cops currently *are* like that, then how did this happen? Who allowed for the US police to degenerate in such a way?

2. It should really be examined how many people taking place in these protests are genuine peaceful protesters and how many are there for other reasons. I have no doubt that the majority of the people there *are* honest, but the media seem to report that there are both far right and far left activists present, both trying to cause riots. Not to mention the possibility of undercover cops, as well as of violent people with no agenda who join in just to trash and loot... I think that the media should try weed all these people out, so that honest protesters won't get confused with them.

3. If Trump honestly believes that using pure force will solve anything, then he's terribly ignorant - and dangerously so.

[Regina Minx]

2. It should really be examined how many people taking place in these protests are genuine peaceful protesters and how many are there for other reasons. I have no doubt that the majority of the people there *are* honest, but the media seem to report that there are both far right and far left activists present, both trying to cause riots. Not to mention the possibility of undercover cops, as well as of violent people with no agenda who join in just to trash and loot... I think that the media should try weed all these people out, so that honest protesters won't get confused with them.

I can at least shed a bit of light on that one.

It's bullshit.

Utter bullshit.

[Beorning]

Hm. Not sure what you mean by "bullshit"? The first article seems to confirm that there people latching onto these protests for sketchy reasons.

I don't have a WP subscription, sadly :\

[Regina Minx]

Hm. Not sure what you mean by "bullshit"? The first article seems to confirm that there people latching onto these protests for sketchy reasons.

I don't have a WP subscription, sadly :\

What I was referring to was the allegation that most people involved in the protests or the bedrock of instigators were out-of-staters who came to cause trouble. The vast majority of them, according to the investigation, were residents of Utah with no prior criminal histories beyond traffic infractions. There was no evidence to support an allegation that they were part of any sort of organized resistance or anti-government movement stoking fires of public outrage. They were just people in a protest.

[Beorning]

What I was referring to was the allegation that most people involved in the protests or the bedrock of instigators were out-of-staters who came to cause trouble. The vast majority of them, according to the investigation, were residents of Utah with no prior criminal histories beyond traffic infractions. There was no evidence to support an allegation that they were part of any sort of organized resistance or anti-government movement stoking fires of public outrage. They were just people in a protest.

Hm. On the other hand, back here, I've literally a few minutes ago seen some news about white supremacists trying to pose as antifa people and inflitrate one of the protests... Also, are you saying that MiraMirror is wrong when mentioning cops setting fires to make the protesters look bad?

[Regina Minx]

Hm. On the other hand, back here, I've literally a few minutes ago seen some news about white supremacists trying to pose as antifa people and inflitrate one of the protests... Also, are you saying that MiraMirror is wrong when mentioning cops setting fires to make the protesters look bad?

I can only speak for myself

[RedPhoenix]

Hm. On the other hand, back here, I've literally a few minutes ago seen some news about white supremacists trying to pose as antifa people and inflitrate one of the protests... Also, are you saying that MiraMirror is wrong when mentioning cops setting fires to make the protesters look bad?

It happens, yes, but the whole "it's a few white instigators from out of town causing problems" is a fairly blatant propaganda tactic meant to make the protests self-segregate. The cops who have been caught breaking things are doing it far away from protests usually, and then counting on the media to conflate things.

As an example, in my city, the police in a certain area fell for the Identity Evropa fake antifa accounts threatening to go into suburbs and thus completely abandoned the retail centers. At the encouraging of a rich white youtube star a bunch of teenagers looted the mall.

Meanwhile, more than an hour away, an actual protest was happening.

The news has been running footage of the teenagers breaking the windows while talking about the protests non-stop ever since. They were two completely un-related things.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'm quite frankly terrified and waiting on baited breath for the first dead cop. That's going to set this entire thing absolutely berserk in retaliations and counter-retaliations.

[Beorning]

It happens, yes, but the whole "it's a few white instigators from out of town causing problems" is a fairly blatant propaganda tactic meant to make the protests self-segregate. The cops who have been caught breaking things are doing it far away from protests usually, and then counting on the media to conflate things.

As an example, in my city, the police in a certain area fell for the Identity Evropa fake antifa accounts threatening to go into suburbs and thus completely abandoned the retail centers. At the encouraging of a rich white youtube star a bunch of teenagers looted the mall.

Meanwhile, more than an hour away, an actual protest was happening.

The news has been running footage of the teenagers breaking the windows while talking about the protests non-stop ever since. They were two completely un-related things.

Of course, I can see the dangers of "All these protests are just a few strangers with political agenda" propaganda - it might convince the people that there's nothing wrong going, nobody is getting discriminated against, there's no racism and everybody is happy with how things are. I can see that.

On the other hand, what you wrote actually *does* confirm that there are some outsiders trying to cause trouble by infiltrating / co-opting the protests. And that the media should be careful not to conflate genuine protests with these outsiders.

And seriously, if the police are involved in provocations, smearing the protestors by staging fires etc., then the media should definitely bring this to light. Something like this is heinous.

[TheGlyphstone]

Did you see the posts upthread showing the media is working with the police to stage propaganda photo-ops of 'support' for protestors? There won't be any exposes from them on police provocateurs.