At What Point Does A Protest Become A Riot?

[Iniquitous]

I am just going to put these here to point out things.





I can most certainly understand the anger that drives people to flip cars, break windows, burn buildings.  The law-abiding citizen in me doesn't condone it because there is no such thing as a victimless crime, but oh my gods yes - I can understand the absolute rage.

[Fox Lokison]

Just my two cents from things that happened in the past 48 here.

My cousin had friends out at a peaceful protest. They were sitting on a curb holding signs, waiting for a ride out so the could leave before curfew. The moment it hit curfew, they were attacked, arrested, and are being charged with felonies. For sitting on a curb with signs. They had tear gas used on them.

The charge for breaking curfew laws here is a fine. Especially just a few minutes after, in broad daylight. They're facing felony charges for sitting on a sidewalk with signs.

Peaceful protest is met with police violence. That is literally why the rioting is happening. I'm honestly frustrated at the amount of people who are more concerned with covering for the police than anything else. They are the enforcers of the law. If they abuse this power, where do you go? You sit in their cells, in their jails. You go through their officers. You deal with their people. And you either shut up and let them do what they want, or you get harmed or killed. They have all the power. And the fact that the squabbles I've witnessed in my sphere center around whether the riots are moral or not rather than the systemic abuse of a system that let's cops arrest, harm, and kill with relative impunity, breaking the law in the process and getting retroactive consent from the government AFTER the act is horrifying.

People deserve more rights and protection than profits and products and buildings.

[Tolvo]

That is also why I've been helping bail funding efforts, like The Bail Project, Minneapolis Freedom Fund, and more. An important thing people can do is help financially support people protesting by donating to orgs that will give people bail money.

[CrownedSun]

Honestly, I'm beginning to get to the point where-- as bad as everything else is,- I'm almost more mad at the MEDIA than anyone else.

I mean, you expect if from Fox, but I haven't seen any good truthful coverage from any of the news organizations. Even the ones that have had their own reporters randomly erupted, shot in the face with rubber bullets, and so on. It's absolutely disgusting, the behavior that I've seen, and yet it's just NOT COVERED.

Hell, I was randomly sharing some of the things I'd seen on Twitter with my Mom,--
I wasn't even trying to antagonize her. Or otherwise pick a fight.
--n' she just would not believe me. She will not believe that the Police are doing the things that they demonstrably are caught on video doing.

So, yeah.

I mean, the information is going out there, seriously, we shouldn't have to rely on twitter for this stuff. Why aren't the news organizations covering this in a more nuanced way? (Or, hell, just on the side of the protesters.) It's hard to get the approval of non-protestors, who are following this but don't feel attached to it, on your side if the media won't tell the story of what is actually happening. That's been what has flipped public opinion on these issues in the past.

[Fox Lokison]

Honestly I'm sitting here waiting to see if I'll be the one driving a storeful of people home today. The cops came down and said to lock the store's doors at curfew and that they couldn't really protect anyone. When asked why, no answer. When asked why they thought there was danger, no answer. And now I sit here with a sinking pit in my stomach wondering, are they unable to protect people because the protests are gonna be that bad, in our small county? Or because their focus will be on being the aggressors using violence to stop lawful, peaceful protest?

Don't know. Won't know until tonight. But considering there were no cops on the streets today where they normally are, and no sign of cars, I'm left wondering just what they're preparing for.

[RedPhoenix]

--n' she just would not believe me. She will not believe that the Police are doing the things that they demonstrably are caught on video doing.

This is a kinda cheap trick but it's worked on some family of friends of mine.

Tell them that a unarmed teenage boy was hit in the head during a nonviolent verbal confrontation with law enforcement.

Word of the incident spread and that within an hour people gathered in the area to protest. They shouted slogans and harmed nothing, but businesses owners closed up their shops for fear of unrest.

Law enforcement called for backup, and heavily armed law enforcement responded. They declare the assembly unlawful and told everyone to leave.

Tell them that in response to crowd got restless. Clods of dirt got hurled at the police. The police fired into the crowd, and a black man died.

Now, ask them what they think of that. Listen as they make excuses for police, or say that the crowd should have dispersed when ordered, or sympathize with the shopowners above the victims.

Now tell them this happened in 1770 and that anything other than being wholly on the side of the protesters is completely un-American and that they've just expressed support for the tyranny that hatred of inspired us to become a free country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre

The black man's name was Crispus Attucks. They've probably heard that one.

I think more than a few windows got smashed during the American Revolution. Never hear anyone crying about it.

[Beorning]

Just my two cents from things that happened in the past 48 here.

My cousin had friends out at a peaceful protest. They were sitting on a curb holding signs, waiting for a ride out so the could leave before curfew. The moment it hit curfew, they were attacked, arrested, and are being charged with felonies. For sitting on a curb with signs. They had tear gas used on them.

The charge for breaking curfew laws here is a fine. Especially just a few minutes after, in broad daylight. They're facing felony charges for sitting on a sidewalk with signs.

Peaceful protest is met with police violence. That is literally why the rioting is happening. I'm honestly frustrated at the amount of people who are more concerned with covering for the police than anything else. They are the enforcers of the law. If they abuse this power, where do you go? You sit in their cells, in their jails. You go through their officers. You deal with their people. And you either shut up and let them do what they want, or you get harmed or killed. They have all the power. And the fact that the squabbles I've witnessed in my sphere center around whether the riots are moral or not rather than the systemic abuse of a system that let's cops arrest, harm, and kill with relative impunity, breaking the law in the process and getting retroactive consent from the government AFTER the act is horrifying.

People deserve more rights and protection than profits and products and buildings.

What you describe is definitely a case of abuse of power by the police. Awful.

What about the courts? Is there a chance that a judge will shoot the felony charges down?

[Remiel]

Some thought-provoking words from Trevor Noah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4amCfVbA_c

[Fox Lokison]

What you describe is definitely a case of abuse of power by the police. Awful.

What about the courts? Is there a chance that a judge will shoot the felony charges down?

Who knows? Depends on the court, and on the judges. This isn't isolated here. It's happening all over. An overwhelming first assault is often the way to stop a battle before it starts. Shut down peaceful protests, slap felony charges on people for holding a sign. Makes people think twice about advocating for their rights again.

The problem here is multiplied. For one, bail money. They Re sitting in jail right now. They're poor students. No bail money. No income. No nothing behind bars, because they have to work day to day jobs to pay for degrees they hope will get them out the min wage crunch. Then you have the time between now and seeing a judge. And the cost of sitting in prison. It's not all taxpayer money. Their ability to eat, to drink, to sleep on something more than a slat depends on their ability to buy things from commissary or to survive in jail. I've had multiple family members in both jail and prison on minor charges, and a few on larger ones. It drags. Maybe months. Maybe a year. And in the meantime you sit in a cell.

And by the time they get to a judge, that's hoping they have a good attorney. Not a court appointed one who has dozens of cases a day and literally can't keep up. And they're poor, so no lawyers. Meanwhile the police have excellent lawyers, and rapport with local judges.

I could continue but what's the point? I think we all get it. The system isn't justice anymore. It's harmful and dangerous and even a "fair day in court" depends on the money and power backing you.

[CrownedSun]

This is a kinda cheap trick but it's worked on some family of friends of mine.

Tell them that a unarmed teenage boy was hit in the head during a nonviolent verbal confrontation with law enforcement.

Word of the incident spread and that within an hour people gathered in the area to protest. They shouted slogans and harmed nothing, but businesses owners closed up their shops for fear of unrest.

Law enforcement called for backup, and heavily armed law enforcement responded. They declare the assembly unlawful and told everyone to leave.

Tell them that in response to crowd got restless. Clods of dirt got hurled at the police. The police fired into the crowd, and a black man died.

Now, ask them what they think of that. Listen as they make excuses for police, or say that the crowd should have dispersed when ordered, or sympathize with the shopowners above the victims.

Now tell them this happened in 1770 and that anything other than being wholly on the side of the protesters is completely un-American and that they've just expressed support for the tyranny that hatred of inspired us to become a free country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre

The black man's name was Crispus Attucks. They've probably heard that one.

I think more than a few windows got smashed during the American Revolution. Never hear anyone crying about it.

Heh, that is a cheap trick.

...not sure it would work though..

I pointed out the 60s, and she was all, "This is not the 60s!"

...but, I did manage to get through this, mostly by owning up to-- A) I was not trying to antagonize her, or even convince her of anything, B) Just reassuring her that society hasn't proven itself invalid, which is what she'd taken my earlier statements to mean.

'n, honestly, I can't ENTIRELY blame her for B) even though that isn't my position because I am a bit divided on that point myself. But, still, making sure she understood what I was and wasn't saying helped. n' she's now much more supportive of everything. Which is good because she lives, like, not only in my house but in the bedroom next to mine. So, some peace is preferably.

<.<

(Though I wish she'd quit watching Fox all the time. That said, I have to admit, I loved her explanation of why she watches Trump TV as she put it rather than MSNBC. Heh. She's really really upset by this, obviously, and she knows that if she watched MSNBC or probably even CNN, she wouldn't be able to take it. It's a privileged take, sure, but it's acceptable to me as long as she's not claiming that the protesters are terrorists (I had to explain what ANTIFA is to her) or saying that Black Lives Matter isn't a legitimate thing (which she doesn't believe except when she's pissy at me.)

So, yeah.

<.<

But, still, I blame the Media for this. All of it. Not just Fox.

[Love And Submission]

It's heartbreaking to see people who are opposed to bringing in the militarily at this point. Our cities are burning, innocent people are being murdered by blood-thirsty mobs every night nd yet people are opposed to do almost anything to stop this. How many people need to die before we stop this? How much blood has to be spilled? I'm not saying that unleashing the militarily on our streets won't cause more bloodshed but at least then we'd have a chance of stopping this chaos. If we do nothing, this chaos will just continue and it will spread not just throughout the country but the world.

This has gone beyond just church burning and looting. A retired police chief was shot to death the other day. An active Federal Marshall was shot in the head in Las Vegas.

These are disgusting acts of violence and the fact that so many people in this country seem completely fine with this is frightening to me.

Something has to be done to stop this. If the Governor of these states can not protect their own citizens then what other choice do we have?

What other solutions are there? Do you really believe appeasing this mob will do anything to quell the violence?

I feel like I’m going insane. I feel like I’m living in a world that has gone completely mad. When people who are trying to stop violence and chaos are considered evil, I don’t know what to make of the world anymore.


I understand people’s grievances, I understand the calls for equality but we can not allow countries to burn in the name of idealism.

The world is not perfect, this country is not perfect but we can not allow our country to be destroyed simply because we disapprove of intolerance and bigotry. That’s cutting off your own nose to spite your own face.

At this point, I don’t even feel like my words or my opinion matters, it feels like this country is under mob rule and no one is allowed to speak out about it or oppose it. This is no way for a country to function.

Again, I think having discussions about prejudice and systemic racism is important but we can not ignore the buildings around us burning to have those conversations. Those conservations are best had when this country as it peace and  it is not at peace at the moment.

[Tolvo]

A thing to keep in mind is this country is under fascist rule, and people speaking out right now are actually being beat down. Whether or not you feel like speaking in support of the government and law enforcement gets people targeted, right now people actively speaking out against these injustices by the government and law enforcement are literally being beaten down and we are witnessing it.

[Fox Lokison]

People who are trying to stop violence over injustice by covering up the injustice are not solving the problem, and bringing in the military is like throwing battery acid on an open wound and getting mad when it doesn't heal.

There's a vast difference between stopping violence and covering up and problem.

We have been incredibly privileged, here in the states, to live in a country where unrest and violence over governmental misconduct are not the norm. If anything, we have grown privileged from peace. We have forgotten that when a country is unwell, when a sickness is not treated, when wounds are left open, violence erupts. For centuries we've managed to deflect violence from our own shores, and relegate it to something that happens elsewhere.

If anything, Americans have become almost immune to the idea that this is a normal part of societal growth and change. Is it good? No. Absolutely not, it's not good that violence has become the avenue to solve problems, and that people are hurt and dying. Yet that comes with a HUGE 'but'. People were already hurt and dying. The system was already taking advantage. The positive was, enough people benefited or were unaffected, that they could allow this to continue without rising up.

Every country has a tipping point. Every government crumbles. How violently that happens depends on a number of factors. Right now, we have a system that is rigid, and was built that was over centuries. It has refused to adapt properly and as a result, has turned into not a benefit, but a harm to the population. Bringing in the military to fix this has both awful historical precedent and has never solved anything.

The wounds are there. The wounds have been there, and are now growing far too large to ignore. Civil unrest is a normal part of a growing society. It doesn't need to be violent. But it is, because the system refuses to change. And if we're talking about what can't be believed, and blood spilling...

How many of our brothers and sisters have to die unjustly at police hands? How many deaths at the border, or lives lost overseas in senseless wars? How much blood needs to be on our hands before the United States realizes a change needs to happen? If you want to look at who is to blame, look at the government. Look at the system made by us, for us, that refuses to change for the very people that made and support it.

It is a privilege to ask how much blood needs to be spilled now. I have spent half my life knowing that what and who I am is enough for people to try and kill me. I have known that it is legal to kill me in a 'trans panic' defense in many places I have lived, legal to deny me critical medical care, legal to turn me away from a job, a home, or even just from shopping because there is minimal protection. Every day I read the news and hope I won't see 'Trans person killed' yet again. And that? That is just a drop in the bucket. A much larger drop, in my opinion, is the crisis now, with Black Lives Matter and police brutality. Another is the deaths of disabled people due to medical neglect. Of immigrants due to racism and bigotry. Of women due to misogyny and hate.

There has been blood for a long time. It was acceptable blood then. And now that we stand up and say 'no, you may not kill ANY of us anymore, not through violence nor hate nor neglect', there is talk of bringing in the military, of using violence to solve violence.

Violence was already happening to us.

You cannot fix a wound in this country's heart with a jackboot and a gun. You start by listening to the voices of the unheard, not closing your ears more and demanding peace. Because there wasn't peace. There was complacency with the violence. And those two are not the same.

It's a privilege to think this is violence, and what came before wasn't. It's a privilege to think this cry of outrage needs to be stopped, but not the thing that caused it. And it's a privilege to think that the current system is worth preserving. Change does not have to be violent. But change does require awareness to happen. And until America is willing to look at the problem instead of crushing it under a boot, the chaos won't ever leave.

[RedPhoenix]

I’m going insane. 

Your violent delusional fantasy needs professional attention, Elliquiy can't help you.

[CrownedSun]

I'll admit, when I read last night that the ACLU was going to be opening lawsuits against the cops for attacking members of the Media? I was happy to hear that.

https://gizmodo.com/minneapolis-cops-sued-for-shooting-beating-and-gassin-1843887290

I'd actually forgotten about it this morning, until I stumbled across this, but it still makes me happy.

The fact that so much of this is being overlooked, IGNORED, just... seriously, seriously bothers me..

[Markus]

Even if I didn't agree with someone, I'd let them say their piece, just saying.

[Remiel]

What other solutions are there?

You can do this.

And this.

And this.


A lot of people are hurt and angry right now.  Escalating the situation will not help anything, and indeed will make things worse.

This is the time to de-escalate.

[CyrodilicBrandy]

These are disgusting acts of violence and the fact that so many people in this country seem completely fine with this is frightening to me.

And yet somehow to many, the deaths of countless Black people at the hands of the police or 'concerned citizens' under systematic racism that pervades literally every day for Black people in America is less of a talking point than the minority of disgusting violent attacks by people who are using the protests to disguise their violence...

[Iniquitous]

It's heartbreaking to see people who are opposed to bringing in the militarily at this point. Our cities are burning, innocent people are being murdered by blood-thirsty mobs every night nd yet people are opposed to do almost anything to stop this. How many people need to die before we stop this? How much blood has to be spilled? I'm not saying that unleashing the militarily on our streets won't cause more bloodshed but at least then we'd have a chance of stopping this chaos. If we do nothing, this chaos will just continue and it will spread not just throughout the country but the world.

This has gone beyond just church burning and looting. A retired police chief was shot to death the other day. An active Federal Marshall was shot in the head in Las Vegas.

These are disgusting acts of violence and the fact that so many people in this country seem completely fine with this is frightening to me.

Something has to be done to stop this. If the Governor of these states can not protect their own citizens then what other choice do we have?

What other solutions are there? Do you really believe appeasing this mob will do anything to quell the violence?

I feel like I’m going insane. I feel like I’m living in a world that has gone completely mad. When people who are trying to stop violence and chaos are considered evil, I don’t know what to make of the world anymore.


I understand people’s grievances, I understand the calls for equality but we can not allow countries to burn in the name of idealism.

The world is not perfect, this country is not perfect but we can not allow our country to be destroyed simply because we disapprove of intolerance and bigotry. That’s cutting off your own nose to spite your own face.

At this point, I don’t even feel like my words or my opinion matters, it feels like this country is under mob rule and no one is allowed to speak out about it or oppose it. This is no way for a country to function.

Again, I think having discussions about prejudice and systemic racism is important but we can not ignore the buildings around us burning to have those conversations. Those conservations are best had when this country as it peace and  it is not at peace at the moment.

It's heartbreaking to see people who are opposed to bringing in the militarily at this point. Our cities are burning, innocent people are being murdered by blood-thirsty mobs every night nd yet people are opposed to do almost anything to stop this. - What fucking news are you watching/reading? Because I read the news daily, several times a day and have NOT seen any reports of bloodthirsty mobs killing innocent people.  I HAVE seen articles of police firing rubber bullets into people's faces so that they lose an eye, or have their skull broken, bloodied and in the hospital.  I HAVE seen articles of journalists being singled out and attacked by the police while they were just reporting what was going on.  I HAVE seen articles of people having tear gas cannisters fired in their faces and the police using kettle techniques to herd the protestors into an area they can't escape so they can further attack them and then arrest them.  I HAVE seen articles of police kicking and hitting people on the ground with their hands up.  But this is not the bloodthirsty mob you are talking about.

How many people need to die before we stop this? How much blood has to be spilled?  Good question.  How many black people have to be targeted and murdered by the men and women sworn to protect us?  How much of their blood has to be spilled before they are held accountable?  We are trying to get that answer RIGHT NOW.  Since simply asking politely has not gotten us an answer, the questions are now being asked more forcefully.

I'm not saying that unleashing the militarily on our streets won't cause more bloodshed but at least then we'd have a chance of stopping this chaos. If we do nothing, this chaos will just continue and it will spread not just throughout the country but the world.  One, nice hyperbole at the end there. Stop it.  The military is NOT the police.  They were never meant to be police.  They are trained differently than the police.  And you want civil war?  That is how you get civil war.   You think people will go "oh look. It's the military. Let me go back home and forget that the police continue to kill black and brown people without cause and are never held accountable."  Fuck no.  It is going to ramp up the fight.

This has gone beyond just church burning and looting. A retired police chief was shot to death the other day. An active Federal Marshall was shot in the head in Las Vegas.  Haven't read anything about churches burning.  The looting issue is separate from the protesting issue.  Not all protestors loot, most looters are not protestors. Stop acting as if a protestor and a looter are the exact same thing. As for the federal marshall and the police chief... let me raise you David McAtee - a man who was shot by the police and left dead in the street for 12 fucking hours.  A man who was not protesting or rioting, but rather was sharing food with friends and family far away from where the protests were happening. A man who was known for feeding the police for free from his own store.

Was it right for the two men you brought up to be shot? No.  No more right than it was for George Floyd to be suffocated to death by a cop.  No more right than it was for Breonna Taylor to be shot to death INSIDE her own home while she was asleep because police failed to knock nor announce themselves before bursting into her home looking for a suspect they ALREADY HAD IN CUSTODY.  This list can go on and on and on and on ad nauseum.  People are pissed.  People are exhausted.

Can you even comprehend what it is like to live black? To know you have to be on full alert when you are out in public because, at any moment, you could be murdered for simply being black?  I sure as hell can't - but I do know that my not having to live like that is my white privilege.  What I do know is NO ONE should have to live like that simply because of the color of their skin and I sure as hell understand their anger.  I sure as hell understand getting so pissed off that you want to bash something in.  And I don't fucking blame them because if I had to live that way I'd be goddamn furious.

There is no discussing this peacefully because the powers that be will NOT discuss this unless they are forced to.  This has been seen time and time and time and time again.  How many times do we have to protest before the powers that be finally listen and make the changes to the system so that EVERYONE is treated equally?  Let me see, I can remember the riots in LA after Rodney King and that was in the early 90's..... as we are STILL in the exact same place we were then.  So, obviously the powers that be haven't heard us when we weren't protesting.

[CrownedSun]

That is how you get civil war.

I will freely admit that, as far as I'm concerned, if the government sends in the military-- potentially all over the entire country- to break up these protests?

Then our government is no longer legitimate.

n' I say this as someone who understands the need for Order, and doesn't think that "abolishing the police" is a realistic or even desirable goal, for all that some major structural changes need to be made.

(We also need to root out the neo-nazi infiltrators in our various police departments and other law enforcement organizations.)

But, no, if the government uses the military to put down what are largely peaceful protests then that's it. The US had a good run but if that happens then it's over.

[CyrodilicBrandy]

I wish there was an upvote system. I'm not eloquent but you've said what I was thinking.

[Fox Lokison]

I know some far right and DEEP conservative sites and pundits have been exaggerating the damage done, but that's the only thing I've seen. Like, the kind of people who make Alex Jones look somewhat rational. A few sensationalized pieces are out there, but they're not worth taking seriously. The only time I see them is when my non American friends send them and ask "hey so how true is this". The answer is usually "not very"

Haven't heard about murderous mobs tho. Rioters threatening lives, once or twice, but that's about it. Honestly the whole murderous mobs thing sounds like a dystopian novel. Not reality.

[TheGlyphstone]

The only bloodthirsty mobs right now are the groups of Proud Boys vigilantes roaming around looking to shoot someone.

[Fox Lokison]

Honestly glad I'm not in Seattle right now... Not hearing good news from there on the alt right and white supremacist front. Things are apparently getting very heated in the PNW.

[RedPhoenix]

I'll admit, when I read last night that the ACLU was going to be opening lawsuits against the cops for attacking members of the Media? I was happy to hear that.

https://gizmodo.com/minneapolis-cops-sued-for-shooting-beating-and-gassin-1843887290

I'd actually forgotten about it this morning, until I stumbled across this, but it still makes me happy.

The fact that so much of this is being overlooked, IGNORED, just... seriously, seriously bothers me..

Good. Bless them.

There is no discussing this peacefully because the powers that be will NOT discuss this unless they are forced to. 

I agree with everything you said but I want to highlight this specifically. They made this violent. They made this about force. They made this about prioritizing power and control over human life. All because they don't want to listen. They are so threatened by united americans demanding change that they will create a fantasy world where an armed response is appropriate. And they will cling to this delusion until they have no choice but to let go.

I will freely admit that, as far as I'm concerned, if the government sends in the military-- potentially all over the entire country- to break up these protests?

Then our government is no longer legitimate.

100%.

I know some far right and DEEP conservative sites and pundits have been exaggerating the damage done, but that's the only thing I've seen. Like, the kind of people who make Alex Jones look somewhat rational. A few sensationalized pieces are out there, but they're not worth taking seriously. The only time I see them is when my non American friends send them and ask "hey so how true is this". The answer is usually "not very"

Haven't heard about murderous mobs tho. Rioters threatening lives, once or twice, but that's about it. Honestly the whole murderous mobs thing sounds like a dystopian novel. Not reality.

Fascists have violent fantasies about "needing" to mow down liberals with assault rifles and tanks. These lies play into that so they accept it without thinking.

I had this conversation with a friend who lives in Germany where they asked what was really happening because they know better than to believe American news.

I just tell them, it's Hong Kong, in every city. They understood that.

They say I thought America was better than China.

I say me too.

But we're losing focus.

Black Lives Matter.