At What Point Does A Protest Become A Riot?

[Beorning]

I wholly agree that sending in the military would be insanely stupid and absolutely immoral. Whatever one thinks of the violent side of these protests, people are rising up because of genuine injustice. A responsible government interested in the good of all citizens should work to deescalate and, then, to solve the issues the protesters fight against. Sending in the military solves nothing and only makes the situation even more violent. Even assuming the military would stamp out these protests, what next? The anger over this would be nightmarish. You want to cause a wound that might divide the Americans for decades? Send in the troops against desperate citizens...

[Brittlby]

Again, I think having discussions about prejudice and systemic racism is important but we can not ignore the buildings around us burning to have those conversations. Those conservations are best had when this country as it peace and  it is not at peace at the moment.

They really aren't.

I mean, I understand. It's my knee jerk reaction too to say we should discuss it when things aren't on fire. But the sad truth is, we just won't have the conversations when the country is at peace. It sounds good, but we won't. We never do.

Cut and paste keynotes from the civil rights debate from the 60's into now and it still fits like a glove. Not saying we haven't made strides, but after 80 years, the fact that the distance we've come can be measured in centimeters is pretty fucking disheartening.

It's time like this, I wish I wasn't stupid! I usually stay out of posting in this forum because I've just never been able to marshal all of the facts to make a cogent point, and asking questions just seems to get me in trouble or make me look foolish. But let me try and explain my perspective in the hopes that it can clarify things. I'm white, cis-gendered, and straight, so I'm sure everyone is waiting with baited fucking breath for my thoughts on the matter! But it is the way of my people to give our unsolicited advice on all things after all!

Paraphrasing MLK, he said that "the Negro's greatest stumbling block" is the moderates who are more devoted to order than justice. I really think more broadly, it's the greatest stumbling block to progress for all marginalized groups. He was right in the 60's and it hasn't changed much almost eighty years later. At the end of the day, people prefer a "negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice".

If it doesn't effect people directly, they have trouble understanding. The lip service allies to injustice are almost worse in my opinion, donating pocket change to causes, changing their profile on Facebook and decrying the horrible things happening to others with the same zeal and attention to detail they spend picking out a hallmark card for the grandparents they don't call enough.

There's a massive percentage of the population that just doesn't give a shit. And there's another big group that cares... but not enough to really do much besides send thoughts and prayers towards your cause while they're on the crapper. I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone in here, nor pretending to know what you in the forum as people value and think. But in a broader sense, I think we can agree, those people are out there in the world and they are legion.

I think that that may be the fundamental misunderstanding, when folks say the media is on the left or the right. It's really more geared towards this silent majority that enjoys "comfort news", an echo chamber that reaffirms their perceptions. And let's not forget, they have to fill 24 hours with news, and while the murder of a black man was a fucking atrocity, it was only nine minutes of footage. People want to see the protests and the riots less for elucidation and more to further cement their view of the world. They want to be reassured that they know what's going on in the world and affirm for themselves that they're on the right side of history... without putting any effort into it. It's sort of like rooting for a sports team as far as I can tell.

Again. That's just my perspective on the state of affairs and I warned you at the beginning, that I'm not very bright. But I do know this and it's key to understanding. The Watts Riots are going to be 75 years old in August. Through out that crisis, "outside agitators" were blamed, but upon investigation, it was the marginalized community that had suffered under a burden of a system of oppression. Riots occur where there is disillusionment in the system. They would occur again and again through the 60's and only really stopped with the Civil Rights Act of 1968. I don't think as a nation we lived up to the promise of that document, but that's another discussion.

The pertinent point here is that if the system fails a portion of the population consistently, then you have to expect that they are going to operate outside of the system. I'm not excusing property damage or lives lost, but it all could have been averted if we had done something to address the African American population's concerns. These protests did not spring up in a vacuum but as a nation we did not address the problem when it WAS "fixable"? I don't think that's the right word, but what I'm getting at is that we had warnings and a chance to enact policy change that has been desperately needed for decades (centuries if we're honest) as recently as 2016. People were being murdered with the blessings of the state and moderate allies bought Nikes to show their support while the Racists and apathetics were more upset that BLM was fucking up Monday night football.

The riots suck, but we did not address the room full of gasoline until someone lit a match. And history has shown if we don't strive for policy change NOW, it's just another lip service promise that kicks the can down the road a few years or decades. We like to think that cooler heads will prevail, but a lot of the "cooler heads" just don't give a fuck. They're watching Tiger King and are more invested / pissed that Baskin is free than that three of the officers weren't charged.

Awful fucking people with their prejudices are still going to be awful. You're not going to change those. It really does fall to the lazy moderates and FB activists to get interested and put their money where their mouth is. They were there in 63' with MLK, those who "paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season.""

There is no convenient season. There never was and never will be. These conversations are best had now.

TLDR

(Speaking of my own perspective) The media is the new opiate of the masses and history tells us we have to sort shit out DURING the protests or it won't ever get sorted out. Riots suck but it's supposed to suck, so that the well intentioned but apathetic portion of the population pay the fuck attention long enough for positive legislation and change.

[RedPhoenix]

Beautiful post Brittlby!

Paraphrasing MLK, he said that "the Negro's greatest stumbling block" is the moderates who are more devoted to order than justice. I really think more broadly, it's the greatest stumbling block to progress for all marginalized groups. He was right in the 60's and it hasn't changed much almost eighty years later. At the end of the day, people prefer a "negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice".

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

For those who don't know the reference, Letter from a Birmingham Jail. One of those things every white person should be required to read before we even dream of talking about MLK like we know him.

[Beorning]

Love your post, Brittlby! Excellent points.

And yeah, the whole "let's wait for a more convenient time" is a bane of any social change.

[Hades]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

President Kennedy said those words in 1962.  And they still apply today just as they did then.  Blacks tried sitting in silent protest at diner counters.  They were beaten and dragged off by police.   They walked peacefully across a bridge.  They were beaten, attacked by police dogs, and then dragged off.  They raised their fists in protest, and their Olympic medals were stripped from them.  They kneel for the national anthem, and they lose their jobs and called "sons of bitches" by the President.  And they are killed day after day after day, their names spoken only by the families that are left because their deaths weren't worthy of the national narrative.  The only thing that has changed now is practically everyone carries a camera in their pockets now and this shit can't stay hidden and buried anymore by corporations with a monopoly on the news.

So saying we should wait until this country is at peace to discuss the systemic racism that is interwoven in every part of society, is like saying we can't look at the sun until it's cool enough to touch. 

[Hades]

*Correction, Tommie Smith and John Carlos were only expelled from the Olympics following raising their fists, but they were not stripped of their medals.  Apologies for that error making past me the first time around.

[MiraMirror]

Just going to mirror what others have said already here.  PoC have tried multiple routes to bring this issue of systemic racism and police brutality/racial profiling to the forefront many different times.  And yet, it seems like every time it gets brought up, non-PoC talk about how they should do it some other way. 

I'm also going to repeat yet again, that these were peaceful before the cops escalated it.  Yes, it's sad that anyone is dying.  But I can virtually guarantee you that for every cop that's been killed, multiple protestors or innocents have been killed in return.  Alt-right groups are escalating things and again, protestors =/= looters.  It's super convenient for people to spin it that way, but it's not the case.

Police have escalated this every step of the way, and even after I had a little hope that some cops weren't complicit in the brutality going on, I was proven wrong.  It's not difficult to see the cases where they posed for a group photo op with protestors, and then proceeded to gas them and/or beat the living hell out of them.  Tell me how that's right.   And now the threat of military force is here?  You want to talk about how it's a tragedy that people are dying?  Take a guess at how many people are going to die when the military comes in on its own citizens.

[CrownedSun]

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

For those who don't know the reference, Letter from a Birmingham Jail. One of those things every white person should be required to read before we even dream of talking about MLK like we know him.

I'd not read that before; thanks for sharing Red. Good read. Very very relevant.



Oh and yes, just to echo everyone, GREAT post Brittleby.

[la dame en noir]

What I find most unsettling is that the few black folx that do speak up in these political threads (me and a few others), are ignored. Hell, no one even engages with us.

I was a protestor for 2 days so far. And I plan on going again. I have hands on experience as a black woman. But even in talking about these things, no one wants to conversate with me or listen to what I have to say.

[CrownedSun]

What I find most unsettling is that the few black folx that do speak up in these political threads (me and a few others), are ignored. Hell, no one even engages with us.

I was a protestor for 2 days so far. And I plan on going again. I have hands on experience as a black woman. But even in talking about these things, no one wants to conversate with me or listen to what I have to say.

What is it like out there where you are? I've mostly only gotten snippets from twitter.

Kinda wish I could go myself, but I can hardly drag my 86 year old wheelchair confined gramma downtown with me.

[MiraMirror]

What I find most unsettling is that the few black folx that do speak up in these political threads (me and a few others), are ignored. Hell, no one even engages with us.

I was a protestor for 2 days so far. And I plan on going again. I have hands on experience as a black woman. But even in talking about these things, no one wants to conversate with me or listen to what I have to say.

For what it's worth, I've been seeing everything you're saying here and I take it with respect simply because you're the one facing the issues.  I'm white, and while I can show support and argue against the police bullshit, I can't say I have to fear for my life with police. 

It's just that when I reply here, it's to argue a point against someone else, not necessarily to directly quote someone else.  For whatever that counts for.

[Tolvo]

What I find most unsettling is that the few black folx that do speak up in these political threads (me and a few others), are ignored. Hell, no one even engages with us.

I was a protestor for 2 days so far. And I plan on going again. I have hands on experience as a black woman. But even in talking about these things, no one wants to conversate with me or listen to what I have to say.

The politics section can be very white. This thread has honestly been refreshing for me because I see a lot more speaking up about these things that usually get buried in dismissals, concern trolling, and strawman arguments. To a degree people speak about issues but not to the degree people have passionately done so in this thread(Or for example the firsthand accounts in the recent thread on fetishization which is something usually brushed under the rug when discussed).

[la dame en noir]

What is it like out there where you are? I've mostly only gotten snippets from twitter.

Kinda wish I could go myself, but I can hardly drag my 86 year old wheelchair confined gramma downtown with me.

Atlanta on Monday was fine. Perfectly fine until we were boxed and trapped by the APD, national guard, and Georgia State Patrol. They told us to leave, but wouldn't let us leave. Then they started snatching protestors and arresting them.

I tried pulling a 17-19 year old black male from the hands of police officers. I was pushed into the crowd of officers and almost arrested. The media says we are the problem, but we aren't. They make unjustified arrears, instigate, and mock the people wanting simple rights as human beings.

It got worse at night.

When I protested yesterday in Macon, it was incredibly peaceful. We had the Macon PD to protect and escort us.

[CrownedSun]

Atlanta on Monday was fine. Perfectly fine until we were boxed and trapped by the APD, national guard, and Georgia State Patrol. They told us to leave, but wouldn't let us leave. Then they started snatching protestors and arresting them.

I tried pulling a 17-19 year old black male from the hands of police officers. I was pushed into the crowd of officers and almost arrested. The media says we are the problem, but we aren't. They make unjustified arrears, instigate, and mock the people wanting simple rights as human beings.

It got worse at night.

When I protested yesterday in Macon, it was incredibly peaceful. We had the Macon PD to protect and escort us.

God that's terrifying. :(

Glad that things were better in Macon, but seriously.

[RedPhoenix]

dame I am so glad you are safe and so sorry you had to go through that and I'm so sorry I didn't engage with you :(

thank you for being strong enough to say something. I hear you, I believe you.

Things at the local marches here have been peaceful today and yesterday, but like you said it gets a lot worse after dark and I'm so worried for everyone braver than me who is still out there :(

[la dame en noir]

dame I am so glad you are safe and so sorry you had to go through that and I'm so sorry I didn't engage with you :(

thank you for being strong enough to say something. I hear you, I believe you.

Things at the local marches here have been peaceful today and yesterday, but like you said it gets a lot worse after dark and I'm so worried for everyone braver than me who is still out there :(

it's okay! I just feel that it's so important that black voices are heard.

[RedPhoenix]

it's okay! I just feel that it's so important that black voices are heard.

You are so right. Thank you for sharing yours. <3

[Tmii3]

As a black guy living in the south. Ive always struggled with racism. Not because of mean or derogatory terms thrown at me, but because I was thought as less than my peers. My dad told me when u was no older than 7 or 8 that people will just hate me for no good reason. Now I'm coming up on 22, and I'm still struggling with this.

And the question is why? Why the fuck are we still having this issue where black people gotta be afraid of walking out the door. I live in a predominantly white neighborhood, and have throughout most of my life. I stick to myself, and try to come off as harmless as humanely possible. Just last year I was walking through my neighborhood and I got stopped by a cop. He asked me if I was lost. He hassled me for a good 25 minutes, and if I didn't have my ID on me I probably would've been detained. Just cause my skin has melanin it?

Isn't that fucking crazy? Its absurd to think about even now. I've had it pretty good with cops, but I can't imagine how bad it is for others who look just like me.

The whole thing with the riots. How could it not be a riot. Black people have been going through the same bullshit since we were stolen and brought here. America is built on the blood and tears of Black and Native American people. There's been no reconciliation attempt. Not even a fucking sorry. Its crazy to me that we have to have a big ass debate in 2020 about black lives matter. We should not be here still. That anger that we have now. That anger is to be treated like equals. We're not terrorists or anything like that. We just want the same opportunities as others, and yet we are treated so fucking poorly by the people who are meant to protect us.

Its heartbreaking, and yet we still want the same thing. We want to be treated equal and apparently to some. A building or two is more important than an 13% of the population getting treated fairly.

As for answers.. I'm not the guy. I just like writing smutty stories like everyone else on this site. I just wish that we could all be treated the same.

[RedPhoenix]

Tmii3 thank you so much for sharing and I'm so sorry you have to go through this. :(

I just like writing smutty stories like everyone else on this site. I just wish that we could all be treated the same.

Me too. But I'm glad you're here with us, and thank you, again. :)

Trying to bite my tongue to not co opt the messages here. But I want to post just so you know you are being heard and you matter.

[Tmii3]

We are all going through this. Me, you, everyone. When one group suffers we all suffer in this country. At least that's what I want to believe.

[CrownedSun]

As for answers.. I'm not the guy. I just like writing smutty stories like everyone else on this site. I just wish that we could all be treated the same.

I hear you there, at least.

it's okay! I just feel that it's so important that black voices are heard.

It is incredibly important.

[Timeless]

Just have to share this video by Hasan Minhaj, especially when he vocalized how I really feel about what had been happening recently.

We Cannot Stay Silent About George Floyd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_FE78X-qdY

[midnightblack]

It's heartbreaking to see people who are opposed to bringing in the militarily at this point. Our cities are burning, innocent people are being murdered by blood-thirsty mobs every night nd yet people are opposed to do almost anything to stop this. How many people need to die before we stop this? How much blood has to be spilled? I'm not saying that unleashing the militarily on our streets won't cause more bloodshed but at least then we'd have a chance of stopping this chaos. If we do nothing, this chaos will just continue and it will spread not just throughout the country but the world.

This has gone beyond just church burning and looting. A retired police chief was shot to death the other day. An active Federal Marshall was shot in the head in Las Vegas.

These are disgusting acts of violence and the fact that so many people in this country seem completely fine with this is frightening to me.

Something has to be done to stop this. If the Governor of these states can not protect their own citizens then what other choice do we have?

What other solutions are there? Do you really believe appeasing this mob will do anything to quell the violence?

I feel like I’m going insane. I feel like I’m living in a world that has gone completely mad. When people who are trying to stop violence and chaos are considered evil, I don’t know what to make of the world anymore.


I understand people’s grievances, I understand the calls for equality but we can not allow countries to burn in the name of idealism.

The world is not perfect, this country is not perfect but we can not allow our country to be destroyed simply because we disapprove of intolerance and bigotry. That’s cutting off your own nose to spite your own face.

At this point, I don’t even feel like my words or my opinion matters, it feels like this country is under mob rule and no one is allowed to speak out about it or oppose it. This is no way for a country to function.

Again, I think having discussions about prejudice and systemic racism is important but we can not ignore the buildings around us burning to have those conversations. Those conservations are best had when this country as it peace and  it is not at peace at the moment.

I've seen this happening before in my own country whenever there was a great social or political turmoil, long after our transition to democracy, and I see it happening now as well with the situation in the US. The mass-media paints a parallel version of reality, rooted in events that can be either real or imaginary, which generally serves any other purpose except the actual interest of the nation and its citizens. In one of the incidents that I described in my previous intervention here, the media tried to convince the public that elders, women and children attempted to break into the government and throw a coup, hence why it was necessary to send the riot police in full combat gear against them. One of the usurpers who got gassed was a philosopher 101 years old at the time.

The most insane attempt to discredit the US protests that I've seen so far is the claim that we're actually witnessing a communist uprising that's been prepared for decades. Not that there wouldn't be a bunch of marxist crackpots attempting to profit from the situation, but I doubt they hold any relevance in the grand scheme of things. I think that at this point it would take an extreme effort of will and denial of reality to not see the truth for what it really is. The sad part is that positive changes don't happen overnight. They take generations and I see how in my own country three decades of freedom haven't been enough to completely wash away failed ideologies and misguided beliefs. But I guess you need to start somewhere. Also, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to detach yourself from news bulletins at this time. They're about as honest in their attempt to inform you as Minitrue.

[Beorning]

What I find most unsettling is that the few black folx that do speak up in these political threads (me and a few others), are ignored. Hell, no one even engages with us.

I was a protestor for 2 days so far. And I plan on going again. I have hands on experience as a black woman. But even in talking about these things, no one wants to conversate with me or listen to what I have to say.

I honestly hope you and other Black people here don't feel that I am ignoring you... I'm genuinely not doing this. With us using screen names and avatars, most of the time I don't actually know whether I'm interacting with a POC or not.

Also, I'd like to stress that, even though I voiced some concern / questions over the rioting in this thread previously, I honestly do care about what POC have to face in the US and it's not like I think it's less important than property damage. I agree that you're facing some terrible injustice and you are absolutely right to protest!

And the question is why? Why the fuck are we still having this issue where black people gotta be afraid of walking out the door. I live in a predominantly white neighborhood, and have throughout most of my life. I stick to myself, and try to come off as harmless as humanely possible. Just last year I was walking through my neighborhood and I got stopped by a cop. He asked me if I was lost. He hassled me for a good 25 minutes, and if I didn't have my ID on me I probably would've been detained. Just cause my skin has melanin it?

This sounds idiotic and infuriating      Possibly naive question, but could you sue?

[HannibalBarca]

I've posted them before, years ago, but these three images sum up my feelings on things:











The United States has a unique position among the nations of the world as far as its origins.  It was founded by some of the most vehement of religious fanatics, the greediest of gold-hungry opportunists, as well as tolerant dreamers and oppressed serfs seeking a simple plot of land to call their own.  Insert into that the annihilated remnants of hundreds of native civilizations, and the diaspora of a kidnapped, raped, and enslaved ethnicity, followed by wave after wave of immigrants from every corner of the globe.  It's no surprise this nation suffers from multiple personality disorder.

Numerous polls show a majority of white Americans simply fail at the basic empathy necessary to understand the suffering of ethnic minorities--or even the poor of their own ethnicity.  It's not just gated communities that create the insulation from others, but the two-edged sword of the internet and the ability to tailor-match media sources to your own echo chamber and reinforce bad information until it inures you from all facts and reality.

Add to this what I consider the mental illness of wealth, which precludes the sufferer from feeling empathy for those with less material possessions.  If power corrupts, and money is power, then the very existence of the millionaire and billionaire classes will always present the opportunity for those in power to set those less fortunate against one another.  The twin scourges of racism and "endless growth" capitalism go hand in hand in the United States.