At What Point Does A Protest Become A Riot?

[RedPhoenix]

I have also seen a lot of very worrisome personal accounts of people’s experiences at protests, where peaceful protesters have been assaulted and tear gassed by the very people who are supposed to be protecting them. Also had the misfortune of clicking on a video which is widely circulating now, where police shove over an elderly man, causing him to pass out and bleed all over the concrete below.. and the police just walk by. From what I’ve seen, it does seem like a great majority of the violence is coming from police (and a bit of it from non-POC escalating things, as well), though I know social media does not always portray an accurate picture of what is actually going on. Still, I am worried and disgusted.

My social media has also been filled with posts about defunding the police because of all the above. I’ve never seen this point of view before, and I have no idea what a future without police would look like. But my knowledge of the Stanford prison experiments does make me stop and think.  I’m curious if anyone can speak to this?

Here's a very basic summary in easy to digest cartoon form.



Look at the budget of your local city/county/etc, you'll be stunned how much money goes to law enforcement.

There's a reason our teachers are going broke buying supplies, our doctors are using trash bags to keep safe from covid, but the police have an endless supply of riot gear and chemical weapons.

[AzureRain]

Thank you for posting this red! *Cue bitter laughter at the ongoing shortage of N95 masks while police roll around with assault rifles*. Just can’t help but think that these protests might be better “policed” by non-police.. maybe some conflict de-escalation specialists, mental health providers, and a couple of dudes that know karate for extreme situations.

[Fox Lokison]

There are many leftist organizations that would happily provide security, except they are all now classified as Antifa, and thus terrorists. They show up armed to protect people, or even just ready to do it, they can be hauled away with no charges. Plenty of organizations have specific branches and training for this. Black Panthers did for a while too. It's just that now, if they do, they too will get hauled off, and we lose those assets. Which is a fucked up way of looking at this but this is fucked up.

[Remiel]

This piece. The training I am suggesting is so we don't get all these cases of them 'fearing for their lives.' Like a cop can point a gun in my face, and panic. I am on the business end of said gun, and I have to remain calm? They need to be trained to better deescalate as well. Military absolutely has better trigger discipline, and a lot of cops view themselves as a junior army. They view themselves as combatants, and people that look like me? As essentially being enemy combatants. When you have a bunch of skittish assholes with guns viewing the neighborhoods they police as enemy territory? You wind up with a startling lack of accountability, and officers that are very willing to abuse their authority.

Yes! Absolutely. Could not agree more.   I think a significant part of the problem is that a lot of white police officers think, even if they are not aware that they do, of black people--particularly black men--as the "Other", as a Threat, and are thus possessed of an itchy trigger finger when conflict, or even the potential for conflict, occurs.  When I lived in southern California, I once talked to a female LAPD officer who told me that she was once called to the house of a Latino man.  He was armed, and a tense standoff occurred,  but he never raised the gun at her and eventually surrendered the weapon.  It turned out that he was in a highly agitated state because he had caught his wife cheating on him earlier that day.  The point was, she could very easily have shot him, but because she saw him as a human being instead of the Enemy, the situation was de-escalated and eventually resolved peacefully.

I think we, as the civilian public, need to start demanding mandatory "de-escalation training" for all police officers.

I think that, in part, is one of the contributing factors to the problem. After 9/11, the rush to over-fun police and protect against terrorists led to the police departments being able to buy all sorts of military-grade or near-military-grade equipment. APCs, full-auto rifles, body armor, helicopters...the list goes on and on, giving us cops who have military weapons and materiel without military discipline and training - they have their shiny expensive toys, and so there's an impulse to use them so spending the money was justified.

Correct, but I think this started before 9/11.  Adam Ruins Everything devoted an episode to it, in fact (linked because of child actor in the video).

But my knowledge of the Stanford prison experiments does make me stop and think. 

Excellent observation.  For those unaware of what she's talking about, the Stanford Prison Experiments were an infamous 1971 experiment in which one-half of a group of white Stanford students were randomly placed in the role of "prison guards", while the other half were made to be the "prisoners".  After a disturbingly short amount of time (only a couple of days), the "guards" began to internalize their roles, going above and beyond the suggested tactics and taking it upon themselves to terrorize and abuse the "prisoners"--their fellow students who were, in all other aspects, just like them.  The abuse and psychological distress of the prisoners grew to such an extent that the experiment had to be stopped after only six days.*

On a somewhat related topic, I am reminded of an experiment conducted in 2012 in which subjects were tasked with playing the game Monopoly.  However, one of the players was gifted with a significant advantage (twice as much starting money, twice as much "income" for passing Go) over the other players.  The surprising part wasn't that the player with the advantage inevitably won.  The surprising part was that, when the subjects were interviewed about the experience afterward, most of the players who had received the advantage failed to mention the obvious inequity or attribute to it their victory.  Instead, they seemed to believe that their victory was an inevitable result of their skill at playing the game, that they were just savvy Monopoly players.  In other words, they believed they won because they deserved to win.

I bring this up because I think it may explain why a lot of white people are deaf and blind to the systematic racism going on all around us.  We don't want to see it, therefore we don't. 

But for all of my white friends who are reading this, and are still confused as to why people are rioting,  I urge you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8jUA7JBkF4





*yes, I am aware that there is some controversy surrounding Zimbardo's methology and that some experts have cast doubt on whether the participants' reactions were genuine.  I am merely making the point that there is a temptation, when finding one's self placed in a position of power and authority, to mis-use that power.

[Twisted Crow]

To be fair, it is difficult to perceive that which doesn't directly effect us. It becomes easier to notice when you have friends in that position. It is hard to have friends in that position because it is also systemically discouraged via cultural segregation over past generations.

[Regina Minx]

My social media has also been filled with posts about defunding the police because of all the above. I’ve never seen this point of view before, and I have no idea what a future without police would look like. But my knowledge of the Stanford prison experiments does make me stop and think.  I’m curious if anyone can speak to this?

Zimbardo's prison experiment was a brief (6-day long) study of 22 non-random young men of a similar demographic in which the experimenter was an active participant. In other words, a very bad one to draw any sort of conclusion from.

[TheGlyphstone]

Zimbardo's prison experiment was a brief (6-day long) study of 22 non-random young men of a similar demographic in which the experimenter was an active participant. In other words, a very bad one to draw any sort of conclusion from.

I was just about to post this - Stanford's never been successfully replicated because Zimbardo was actively coaching and directing the guards, rather than letting the cruelty 'spontaneously' erupt.

[AzureRain]

Thank you guys for those comments, I actually wasn’t aware that the experimenter participated in the experiment himself. Definitely questionable 

On a somewhat related topic, I am reminded of an experiment conducted in 2012 in which subjects were tasked with playing the game Monopoly.  However, one of the players was gifted with a significant advantage (twice as much starting money, twice as much "income" for passing Go) over the other players.  The surprising part wasn't that the player with the advantage inevitably won.  The surprising part was that, when the subjects were interviewed about the experience afterward, most of the players who had received the advantage failed to mention the obvious inequity or attribute to it their victory.  Instead, they seemed to believe that their victory was an inevitable result of their skill at playing the game, that they were just savvy Monopoly players.  In other words, they believed they won because they deserved to win.

I bring this up because I think it may explain why a lot of white people are deaf and blind to the systematic racism going on all around us.  We don't want to see it, therefore we don't. 

Ooh this is interesting. I wonder what makes this so. Some sort of psychological defense mechanism.

[Twisted Crow]

Yeah, I found that interesting, too. Could be that. Could just be plain ignorance.

Then again, I haven't played Monopoly in ages. How does one not know they are starting with more money than other players?

[TheGlyphstone]

It doesn't say they didn't know - it says that they failed to mention it, so they must have known. It just means they ignored/forgot/discounted it.

[Beorning]

But for all of my white friends who are reading this, and are still confused as to why people are rioting,  I urge you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8jUA7JBkF4

Thank you! That was excellent.

[Twisted Crow]

I don't really know what to make of Houston, right now. The headline of this one looks ominous, but I would encourage one to read past it. I am not a big fan of Art Acevedo for a number of reasons. The gist being that he seems a bit... counter-productive to Slyvester Turner's goals for Houston. *shrug*

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc13.com/amp/its-our-city-dont-let-em-take-it-chief-acevedo-says/6228112/

Then we have articles like this one below, telling me that my city is less 'wild' than other cities regarding the protests. I really don't know what to make of all this, honestly.  If this is true, I kinda get it. It's Houston. We get smacked with a hurricane every now and then; we band together in force and form our own damn rescue teams. When it comes to sports? We're the biggest jackasses on the planet. But when shit gets real? We kinda just... come together, you know?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/criminal-justice/2020/06/04/375116/why-are-protests-in-houston-typically-more-low-key-compared-to-other-cities/amp/

Then again, some of you folks know me. I am skeptical about trusting journalism in general. *sigh* 

[stormwyrm]

Yeah, so it does seem that the "boogaloo" movement of far-right provocateurs attempting to incite violence at the protests is real:

https://www.businessinsider.com/3-boogaloo-men-terror-charges-george-floyd-protest-riot-conspiracy-2020-6
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/far-right-extremists-charged-with-inciting-violence-as-us-protests-enter-a-ninth-straight-evening

No evidence so far of leftists doing anything remotely similar despite many allegations.

[HannibalBarca]

My son and I arrived in Los Angeles a day early to be ready for his top surgery.  We're staying at a hotel around Hollywood, and protestors were streaming down the street, so we joined them.  My son staged a protest for trans rights at his high school a few years ago (making dad uber proud), but being that he was living with his mom in a very conservative community, only eight other students joined him.

This was his first big protest.  There were signs, there were cops, there were a lot of peaceful people.  I don't count people raising their voice as violent, because people have a reason to be pissed.We even saw some LGBTQ signs and gave those people props.  Lots of cars driving by with people honking and cheering and raising fists in solidarity.  Very few people acting pissed.

I didn't do a lot of explaining or teaching history, which is hard because I'm a teacher.  Instead I let the experience do the teaching.  You don't get much more multimedia than being at an event in person.  After, back in our room, we talked about it a lot.  He's 18, and damned smart as well as empathic.  Sometimes, to move the bar, we need events like these to both inspire our side, and to open the eyes of those who are reachable.

[TheGlyphstone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4cea5oObY

No jokes from John Oliver this week, the man is more (justifiably) pissed off than I have ever seen him.

(Trigger warning on the video, it has footage of police brutality at protests.)

[Timeless]

I watched that video - especially because I'm a huge fan of John Oliver. It broke my heart seeing him sounding so defeated at the end, but it's plainly obvious he's just fed up and just tired of seeing all the bullshit happening all around. I even remembered watching his video of police militarization like a while back too.

[clonkertink]

Holy crap. I mean, they've still gotta vote it through, but Minneapolis city council apparently has a veto-proof majority to disband the current police department.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/protests-today-george-floyd-video.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur#link-512cff3a

[Aiden]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_FE78X-qdY

[TheGlyphstone]

Let's wait and see them actually pull it off before we celebrate, though. Like John pointed out, police unions are powerful and have a lot of money to throw at keeping their power.

[Aiden]

Being proud/happy that people are being heard should be celebrated. I just want the momentum to keep going.

[Tolvo]

Btw a great site for learning more about demilitarization, defunding, disbanding of the police, as well as prison abolition, and more related matters, here is a link.

https://www.8toabolition.com/

[CrownedSun]

I found this a very good Twitter thread about MLK and other civil rights leaders.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1270076281040797699.html

[Sara Nilsson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arzTB4ji_Ig&feature=emb_logo

Video about Camden NJ who actually did major police reform.

[Remiel]

Awesome find, Sara.

[Oniya]

I think most people are feeling a little ragged mentally.  It's important to remember self-care and look at what we, as individuals can do.  Taking time off of social media instead of letting yourself be immersed entirely, reaching out in our individual communities to find help - and helpers.  Fred Rogers once said, 'When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping." To this day, especially in times of "disaster," I remember my mother's words and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in this world.'