At What Point Does A Protest Become A Riot?

[Beorning]

Hm. Does this mean that American media are so naive..?

[RedPhoenix]

Hm. Does this mean that American media are so naive..?

A five year old wanting to go to the zoo to ride a hippo is naive.

Licking the boots of racist authoritarians to further the hate that keeps the police state alive is not naive in the slightest.

[Blythe]

Hm. Does this mean that American media are so naive..?

Personally, I don't think the media is naive.

But their utility is going to be...limited. And sometimes unhelpful.

Sometimes that's going to be because there are going to be right-wing leaning media willing to help police with the fake positive photo ops, and because any halfway decent media may find themselves in a situation similar to CNN's Omar Jimenez. Anyone who believes in free speech in the USA should be absolutely terrified at the First Amendment violations that come from arresting Jimenez while covering the protests. 

[RedPhoenix]

There are so so many examples. This is just a handful. The press is being deliberately targeted.

Australian news crew assaulted by police in DC - https://7news.com.au/news/north-america/prime-minister-scott-morrison-calls-for-investigation-after-7news-reporter-and-cameraman-assaulted-in-us-riots-c-1074160

Syracuse police shove photographer to ground - https://www.syracuse.com/news/2020/06/syracuse-police-officer-shoves-news-photographer-to-the-ground-during-protest-video.html

Louisville metro pd shoots pepper balls right at reporter - https://www.wave3.com/2020/05/29/lmpd-officer-fires-pepper-balls-wave-news-reporter-photographer-during-louisville-protest/

CNN reporter arrested while live in Atlanta - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/arts/television/cnn-arrest.html

Photographer loses an eye in Minneapolis - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-press.html

Minnesota state police fire on reporters at close range - https://twitter.com/mollyhf/status/1266911382613692422

Denver news photographer shot twice with pepper balls, says cop aimed at him - https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/29/denver-post-photographer-pepper-balls-george-floyd-protest/

Los Angeles, media pepper sprayed in the face - https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-01/they-came-toward-us-firing-pepper-spray-and-rubber-bullets

Seattle reporter, flashbangs and teargas shot right at her - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8379089/Scary-moment-MSNBC-reporter-hit-flash-bangs-tear-gas-live-air-Seattle.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many more examples.

[MiraMirror]

I'd like to clarify a thing in my last post.  When I said cops were leaving bait cars (and now bait bricks, it seems), I wasn't trying to say that other groups weren't also sowing chaos and/or trying to de-legitimize the protestors.  I apologize if I worded it in a way that made it sound like that. 

[Formless]

There are so so many examples. This is just a handful. The press is being deliberately targeted.

Australian news crew assaulted by police in DC - https://7news.com.au/news/north-america/prime-minister-scott-morrison-calls-for-investigation-after-7news-reporter-and-cameraman-assaulted-in-us-riots-c-1074160

Syracuse police shove photographer to ground - https://www.syracuse.com/news/2020/06/syracuse-police-officer-shoves-news-photographer-to-the-ground-during-protest-video.html

Louisville metro pd shoots pepper balls right at reporter - https://www.wave3.com/2020/05/29/lmpd-officer-fires-pepper-balls-wave-news-reporter-photographer-during-louisville-protest/

CNN reporter arrested while live in Atlanta - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/arts/television/cnn-arrest.html

Photographer loses an eye in Minneapolis - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-press.html

Minnesota state police fire on reporters at close range - https://twitter.com/mollyhf/status/1266911382613692422

Denver news photographer shot twice with pepper balls, says cop aimed at him - https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/29/denver-post-photographer-pepper-balls-george-floyd-protest/

Los Angeles, media pepper sprayed in the face - https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-01/they-came-toward-us-firing-pepper-spray-and-rubber-bullets

Seattle reporter, flashbangs and teargas shot right at her - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8379089/Scary-moment-MSNBC-reporter-hit-flash-bangs-tear-gas-live-air-Seattle.html

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many more examples.

At which point did the authorities think these acts were right?

[RedPhoenix]

At which point did the authorities think these acts were right?

Precisely the moment they understood they'd get away with it.

[CyrodilicBrandy]

Lives of countless POC > property.

[clonkertink]

At which point did the authorities think these acts were right?

I don't think right or wrong entered into their thinking. "The strong do as they will, and the weak suffer what they must." This isn't about morality, it's about the exercise and retention of power.

They already steamrolled right over George Floyd's right to life, so why not trample on the free press while they're at it? It's hard to love the police right now, and if those who wield power can't be loved, then they'll settle for being feared.

[Markus]

At which point did the authorities think these acts were right?

Suppressing journalists is the sort of thing that I imagine would have Trump's approval. He's certainly railed against fake news networks long enough. This would appear to be an attempt to control the media narrative. Ultimately whosoever dominates the media determines how people perceive events. Press 'regulation' is an oft used tool employed by authoritarian regimes all across the world. I didn't think this sort of thing would happen in America, and this overtly. I suppose its all part of the might is right doctrine. Morality, ethics, right or wrong, these are all irrelevant.

[midnightblack]

Something similar to this happened in my country as a drawn out series of protests and general unrest lasting from late 2016 to mid 2019. Not at the magnitude seen now in the US, for a number of reasons. Among others, my country is a lot smaller, civilians are unarmed, racial and social divides aren't as pronounced, though still quite present. The parliamentary elections of late 2016 were won by a bunch of ex-communist bastards with a personal agenda very different from any of the country's actual legitimate interests. We have a long standing partnership with the US, and the election of Donald Trump at around a similar time was seen as a business opportunity for them, in the sense that they imagined they could do whatever they wanted as long as whatever interests Trump or his friends had locally were satisfied.

In short, they acted so brutally and transparently against any kind of democratic values and common sense that they triggered the first large scale protests seen here in almost 30 years. As soon as the protests became of significant size and began to spread throughout the country, the entire media was mobilized against them. Aside of a handful of journalists (who were hunted down, threatened, harassed, fired and in some cases physically abused) there wasn't a single news channel or newspaper that didn't vilify protesters, sometimes returning to tried and tested totalitarian reflexes: among other nonsense, they were  called the enemies of the people and "proof" was shown that they were in fact serving the unseen enemy who wanted to deny the country's bright future. As a second measure, violent/extremist groups or other weirdos were infiltrated among the protests and given voice so as to try and hijack their purpose and tarnish their credibility in the eyes of the public, both here and abroad. The violent groups in particular were either well-known gangs from the football scene or fighters from security companies owned by various politicians. In several instances, they were used as an excuse for the riot police to disperse the crowds.

The most appalling such instance was on the 10th of August 2018, when a large protest was organized by our diaspora. Depending on how you count, between a quarter and a third of our citizens live outside the country and many of them  return here once or twice a year to visit their families. In any case, they had been vilified for weeks prior to the protest, branded as traitors who ran away in difficult times and now returned only to sabotage the nation's plans for greatness at the drive of foreign powers. The protest was infiltrated by a handful of agitators and the riot police acted with a violence unseen from the days of the anti-communist revolution. Aside of following borderline insane orders, an incident was staged so as to make it look like protesters nearly killed a young female officer, and this was used to manipulate the police into acting with exceeding brutality.

In any case, after roughly 3 years of constant turmoil and bleak perspectives, things came to an almost comical end. The party in question eroded gradually due to its actions and generally poor management of the economy and society (as on top of being malevolent they were also incompetent) and this led to them losing the elections for the European parliament in the spring of 2019. The very next day their leader was sent to prison at the end of a trial which he constantly sought to delay and escape from for the past 3 years, and that was all she wrote.

[Beorning]

Something similar to this happened in my country as a drawn out series of protests and general unrest lasting from late 2016 to mid 2019.

Hey, out of curiosity: what country are you referring to?

Lives of countless POC > property.

I admit that I can't fully understand this attitude (and I feel I spotted it a few times in this thread).

Just to make it clear: I have no problem with the protests and I fully empathize with them. The racial situation in the US definitely seem bad and police brutality against POC is absolutely disgusting. As is Trump's handling of the situation (in fact, this whole "gas the protesters so that I can have my photo shoot" is crossing the moral event horizon so hard that, in a sane world, it would've been the end of him). And I fully agree that systemic racism is the far more important problem here, not property damage.

That said, I just cannot agree with the attitude that seems to say that people being (rightfully) angry gives them the justification for destroying random property. I fully support the protests, I can even understand the protesters getting into fights with the police (especially as the police seems to be unnecessary brutal when handling these protests), but burning random shops and cars? If its the protesters doing that, not some third-party instigators, then it's not right. And I can't understand dismissing the harm such behaviour does to the property's owners with the reasoning of "People are angry and are forced to rise up against injustice, so property damage is justifiable". Yes, a burned car is just a car, not a person - but, as Formless said, destroying it definitely negatively impacts someone...

[RedPhoenix]

You're creating a strawman. Nobody is saying smash everything you like and we're happy with it.

What we're saying is, and really, read this:

In many cases the property damage has nothing to do with protests but is unfairly attributed to them.

In the cases where there is a connection, the fact that people have to protest because unarmed black Americans keep getting murdered by the police is the problem.

What is turning peaceful protests into riots that cause damage to property, and creating a state of lawlessness where opportunists have the chance to commit crime, is the fact that the police keep devoting all of their resources to  attacking peaceful protesters.

Put the blame where it belongs. If you want to say "How can the police keep killing innocent Americans and create this situation where windows might get smashed" go nuts, I think most of us just question the need for the second clause in that sentence.

[GermanCake]

Lives of countless POC > property.

This.

I see more and more liberals arguing over whether or not the looting is justified rather than keep the conversation on police brutality. I've seen this come up as far back as the LA riots over the Rodney King beating. We all agree that cops shouldn't straight up murder and abuse POC. But there's a line that they won't cross. Their support for minorities voicing their anger vanishes as soon as a protester smashes a window.

Taking one look at the news, you'd think every city in the US is on fire. I live in LA, and my city issued a curfew because of the riots. While I'd like to be seeing something done about putting cops that murder citizens in jail, we are having this conversation. When does a protest become a riot? In reality, the vast majority of protests are peaceful. Of the ones that turned violent, there is evidence that they were caused by people not there to support the protest. Yet we seem to connect the whole movement to the looters in every article.

What is turning peaceful protests into riots that cause damage to property, and creating a state of lawlessness where opportunists have the chance to commit crime, is the fact that the police keep devoting all of their resources to  attacking peaceful protesters.

Huge point that a lot of people are missing. Most seem to assume the cops are fighting looters in these chaotic scenes when in fact cops are cracking down on the peaceful protesters *instead* of the looters. But rather than focus on the real problem, people are pulling the conversation that is only a symptom. I have some well meaning liberal friends, but they hesitate support BLM because property was damaged. They are sending me the message that brick and mortar are more important than ending systemic racism.

Also, stop telling Martin Luther King jr's kids what their dad would say.

     

[Markus]

While people are raking up the property damage issue I trust everyone is also aware that police have been on the receiving end as well.

- A retired police captain David Dorn has been shot and killed while trying to prevent a pawn shop looting.

- Officer Shay Mikalonis of the Las Vegas Police Department has been shot while responding to a group of rioters and is in critical condition.

- In St Louis, four police officers have been shot and wounded.

- In New York, onlookers cheered as a solitary officer was set upon by a group of men. Another officer was hit by a speeding car while responding to a break-in. While two others were run over by a minivan while responding to protests. I've seen videos for these three incidents, not pleasant.

[Tolvo]

https://twitter.com/letsgomathias/status/1268177816526499840

https://twitter.com/HuffPost/status/1268170822490787842

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-york-protests-nypd-riot-journalist-arrest_n_5ed6eb28c5b637216742e215

Christopher Mathias of Huffington Post told the story of his arrest, after identifying himself as a journalist and following every order given to him by police, and being wrestled to the concrete and screamed and sworn at with his propety being left behind(Thankfully another journalist found it). Turned out his phone was still recording as well and had the audio of the officers mistreating him. Police are doing this to journalists regularly and are silencing any press they can recording their acts of brutality and violence(As we've seen with examples such as CNN's black reporter being arrested live on air for standing where he was told). As Mathias mentions in at the end as well, while what is happening to journalists is horrible as well this is happening to many people in the streets who aren't press. People are being attacked, crushed, brutally hurt, and killed by police. Journalists being targeted can make for some good headlines but this is happening to a ton of people and many of them don't have the resources to survive it.

[RedPhoenix]

Yeah, the journalists we hear more about because they tend to be the ones recording and who have access to a way of telling us it happened, and even that is limited to those journalists who actually go into the areas being attacked by police to see what happened - the networks that don't want to create bad footage  for the police which is most of them are staying far away as they can. The scale of what is happening to ordinary people is just insane.

[Beorning]

You're creating a strawman. Nobody is saying smash everything you like and we're happy with it.

Not trying to create a strawman - I'm just commenting on what I seem to be perceiving in this thread. Of course, I can be misreading you - and if so, I'm sorry.

What we're saying is, and really, read this:

In many cases the property damage has nothing to do with protests but is unfairly attributed to them.

Okay, wait a minute. You're saying that the property damage often isn't caused by the protesters. Yesterday, Regina was telling me that there are rarely outsiders that take advantage of the protests to cause mischief. So... which one of these statements should I think is true? This is an honest question - I am a non-American and I'm trying to understand this...

In the cases where there is a connection, the fact that people have to protest because unarmed black Americans keep getting murdered by the police is the problem.

What is turning peaceful protests into riots that cause damage to property, and creating a state of lawlessness where opportunists have the chance to commit crime, is the fact that the police keep devoting all of their resources to  attacking peaceful protesters.

Put the blame where it belongs. If you want to say "How can the police keep killing innocent Americans and create this situation where windows might get smashed" go nuts, I think most of us just question the need for the second clause in that sentence.

I wholeheartily agree that the root of the problem and the much more bigger issue is police racism and the general discrimination against POC in the US. I'm just saying that, while the riots and violence are just a reaction to these huge problems, they are becoming a problem themselves, too. Also, while I understand the sociological mechanisms of group frustrations being vented through violence and the mechanics of mass gatherings, I'm not entirely comfortable with excusing everything the protesters are doing with "They are protesting injustice, let's not talk about it at all, let's talk only of said injustice".

I don't know, maybe it's because I'm naturally a non-violent person - but I just can't make that mental and ethical leap from "I need to protest being bullied and oppressed by the racist system" to "The cops are trying to violently stop me from my protest, I'll smash some random windows and trash some random shop to show my anger". But maybe I just don't get how these things work during protests... (not being sarcasting, I honestly think I might not be getting something here)

And there's the matter of cops being hurt in these protests, too - as Markus mentioned in the post below...

[Regina Minx]

Okay, wait a minute. You're saying that the property damage often isn't caused by the protesters. Yesterday, Regina was telling me that there are rarely outsiders that take advantage of the protests to cause mischief. So... which one of these statements should I think is true? This is an honest question - I am a non-American and I'm trying to understand this...

There's no inherent contradiction between the two statements. You can believe that both are true.

[RedPhoenix]

Okay, wait a minute. You're saying that the property damage often isn't caused by the protesters. Yesterday, Regina was telling me that there are rarely outsiders that take advantage of the protests to cause mischief. So... which one of these statements should I think is true? This is an honest question - I am a non-American and I'm trying to understand this...

To be frank I don't think you're trying very hard, but I'll humor this a little more.

There are many different things happening in many different places. Different things happen for different reasons. If you can mentally walk and chew gum at the same time, you can grasp the concept that property damage is being done differently in different incidents. It's not that hard. You're flailing to find an inconsistency in what you're being told when there isn't one, instead of listening to what you're being told.

I wholeheartily agree that the root of the problem and the much more bigger issue is police racism and the general discrimination against POC in the US.

I don't think you do, or the loss of life would be what bothers you and you wouldn't keep harping on about broken windows. That seems to be what you think the biggest issue here is and from your posts thus far it seems like it's the only issue you have with any of this.

We can fix the windows. We can't fix a dead body. We need to make sure that never happens again first and foremost, because it's a problem we can't fix after the fact. Everything else is so far secondary it's hardly on the radar, unless you take the mindset that fixing centuries of racial injustice isn't worth it if the display outside a luxury car dealership gets knocked over in the process.

I'm not entirely comfortable with excusing everything the protesters are doing with "They are protesting injustice, let's not talk about it at all, let's talk only of said injustice".

The discomfort you feel for the broken windows should pale in comparison to the discomfort you feel for a dead man, to such a degree that you shouldn't even care about the windows. They don't have feelings. They can be rebuilt. The dead body can't be. 

I don't know, maybe it's because I'm naturally a non-violent person - but I just can't make that mental and ethical leap from "I need to protest being bullied and oppressed by the racist system" to "The cops are trying to violently stop me from my protest, I'll smash some random windows and trash some random shop to show my anger". But maybe I just don't get how these things work during protests... (not being sarcasting, I honestly think I might not be getting something here)

For the last time, nobody is saying this. You're creating a position to attack and then not listening to what is actually being said. If you want me to believe you're trying, then actually try. Read what people are telling you. These words here indicate to me you are not. You have an idea of what is happening stuck in your head that you refuse to depart from despite being universally told you're wrong, and at a certain point this "gosh I don't know" is just strategic ignorance. There are many ways you can educate yourself if you don't want to accept what you're being told here.

And there's the matter of cops being hurt in these protests, too - as Markus mentioned in the post below...

The police, that have been hurt during the last week, are victims of the police state here too. They have been either

1) victims of opportunistic acts made possible by the state of lawlessness caused as a direct result of the government's decision to create riots, or
2) they have been hurt by people they are attacking fighting back, or
3) it has been completely unrelated and conflated with the protests to suit the agenda of the media.

Again, all of these things are possible because multiple incidents have different explanations. Also worth noting here that protesters are dying and being killed by the police too, and completely uninvolved people are being hurt as well. The state of lawlessness is to blame, and the government is responsible for that.

But why are the police in a dangerous situation? Because the government would rather create riots than arrest police officers who commit murder and hold them accountable. Sure I have much less sympathy for those hurt as a direct result of attacking protesters, as they always have the choice of saying no when told to do these things, but that doesn't change that they are pawns in this too and their health is viewed as expendable and a perfectly fine price to pay to ensure that police officers aren't held accountable for murdering black people. I'm not okay with that, and if you aren't either, you should be angry at the government.

Again, the solution to all of this? What puts a stop to all of this? End the lack of accountability for police. End the racist practices of police. Demilitarize the police state.

Wagging your finger at a few broken windows is just a staggering level of not understanding what the problem is or the solution.

Or maybe Marx really was just right about the bourgeois stepping over the bodies of the proletariat to weep for brick and mortar.

[CyrodilicBrandy]

It's funny cause I didn't actually say that property means nothing, or that destroying small business is right. And the fact that people jump straight to 'so destroying property is okay to you then?' is telling. Countless of POC's lives are more important than property.

[Remiel]

I think this needs to go viral.  Not because I think this guy is a hero, but because this sort of attitude needs to permeate every police station and sheriff's office until we're all on the same page.

CNN's interview with St. Paul police chief Todd Axtell

CNN (Poppy Harlow):  You've said, in the last few days, integrity, respect for all, compassion, empathy--these are qualities that are non-negotiable as law enforcement professionals and human beings.  I wonder if you could share with us if those are conversations you are having with your officers, some of whom are coming to you in tears.  What are you saying to them right now about the humanity of all of us that needs to be respected?

St. Paul Police Chief Todd Axtell:  I've visited with hundreds of officers over the last few days within the St. Paul Police Department at roll calls and other venues.  My message is very simple:  that I'm proud of the great officers that we have in this agency, we have been dealing with traumatic and challenging times.  But I'm also very clear, and I want to make sure that all chiefs and sheriffs throughout this country, join me in this clarion call to our officers, when they watch that video, if they think in any way, shape or form, that that's acceptable or reasonable uses of force, I told my officers, if they think that's reasonable, I want you to turn your badge in to me and do it immediately.

[Beorning]

There's no inherent contradiction between the two statements. You can believe that both are true.

I can't see how, really. This might a language barrier issue, but from what I gather, RedPhoenix is saying that in many cases, the property damage isn't caused by the protesters. Yesterday, you said that the instances of non-locals coming to protests to stoke the fires are rare - which suggests (if I understand correctly) that the property damage does happen because the actual protesters are doing that. These two statements are contradictory at least in a part - unless, as RedPhoenix said, different things happen in different places. Which is sensible, but it's not what either of you said... At least I didn't get that from what I read. But again - I could be reading you wrongly. I admit that. Mostly, I feel genuinely confused.

To be frank I don't think you're trying very hard...

And I really do like when people make assumptions about me and my attitudes... 

I don't think you do, or the loss of life would be what bothers you and you wouldn't keep harping on about broken windows. That seems to be what you think the biggest issue here is and from your posts thus far it seems like it's the only issue you have with any of this.

Again, you're making assumptions. Also, you are forcing your thought processes on me. Can't you imagine that one can be deeply disgusted by racism and, at the same time, be concerned when well-justified protests turn violent? This isn't an either / or situation.

As for me "harping about broken windows" - it's not my only issue, but I keep mentioning it, because this whole thread is about the specific issue of protests and rioting.

We can fix the windows. We can't fix a dead body. We need to make sure that never happens again first and foremost, because it's a problem we can't fix after the fact. Everything else is so far secondary it's hardly on the radar, unless you take the mindset that fixing centuries of racial injustice isn't worth it if the display outside a luxury car dealership gets knocked over in the process.

You are right: we can't resurrect a victim of murder and we can fix windows. So yes, of course the loss of life is more important. But you need to remember that the broken windows are connected to businesses or homes of actual living people - who will have to pay serious money to get them fixed. And money doesn't grow on trees, you need to earn it. And if you spend money on fixing your broken windows, you might not have enough money for the other needs you and your loved ones might have...

In other words: you're absolutely correct, a car doesn't have feelings. But a person who is paying off a bank loan they took to buy said car does. Did you consider that?

The discomfort you feel for the broken windows should pale in comparison to the discomfort you feel for a dead man, to such a degree that you shouldn't even care about the windows. They don't have feelings. They can be rebuilt. The dead body can't be. 

Again, "should"? You really think it's fair from you to dictate the specifics of how people should feel?

The police, that have been hurt during the last week, are victims of the police state here too. They have been either

1) victims of opportunistic acts made possible by the state of lawlessness caused as a direct result of the government's decision to create riots, or
2) they have been hurt by people they are attacking fighting back, or
3) it has been completely unrelated and conflated with the protests to suit the agenda of the media.

Again, all of these things are possible because multiple incidents have different explanations. Also worth noting here that protesters are dying and being killed by the police too, and completely uninvolved people are being hurt as well. The state of lawlessness is to blame, and the government is responsible for that.

No, you cannot just blame the state of lawnessness. The state of lawnessness isn't a conscious entity. People are conscious entities and they are to blame for their actions, too. George Floyd wasn't murdered simply by "racism", he was murdered by a racist cop. And if cops are being hurt in these protests, they aren't hurt by some abstract "state of lawnessness", they are hurt by actual people who are crossing the line between lawful protests and violence. If you say that the blame for cops being hurt should fall strictly on the "state of lawnessness" and the government behind it, you are actually freeing actual people who do the hurting from any responsibility. And I really do find it concerning.

(and before you jump at me: yes, I do find racism even more concerning)

Again, the solution to all of this? What puts a stop to all of this? End the lack of accountability for police. End the racist practices of police. Demilitarize the police state.

Actually, I agree.

Or maybe Marx really was just right about the bourgeois stepping over the bodies of the proletariat to weep for brick and mortar.

I'm a bourgeois now?

[Tolvo]

Looting and property damage is currently being over reported. In a lot of cases totally unrelated incidents happening nowhere near protests are being attributed to protests. Nearly any time any fire happens, even if no protests are around for miles, they say protestors started the fires. Looting and such things is an incredibly small amount of what is going on, and often cops are ignoring the small fraction of people using the chaos to carry out theft to beat down people protesting. In addition to the cops themselves smashing and looting(Though be careful as there are some misleading videos going around showing that). Cops are also often corralling groups of protestors into suburbs, they want them out of commercial areas with property the government cares about, they're fine with smashing homes and local businesses.

[RedPhoenix]

Again, "should"? You really think it's fair from you to dictate the specifics of how people should feel?

When it's something as universally basic as people matter more than property? Yes. Absolutely. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

People are conscious entities and they are to blame for their actions, too.

Final strawman. Nobody ever said otherwise, and until you concede that and start actually having a conversation with anyone other than the imaginary pro-looting and violence person in your head there's no point in continuing this. Adios.