Coronavirus: Discussion and Information

[Laughing Hyena]

My own mother, and aunt haven't and more than likely won't listen to me. It makes me sad so I'm using myself as the proverbial guinea pig. I got the full Pfizer booster so, I'm doing what I can to prove that it's not as unsafe as molehill news leads them to think.

[CopperLily]

I got my Pfizer booster at the same time as my seasonal flu shot. And I'm still masking in public and soft quarantining. I take this newest surge seriously and recommend everyone does likewise.

<3

[AmberStarfire]

I've had the Pfizer booster too. However, I have a firm belief in personal choice, and that people should have the right to determine whether or not they're vaccinated. A government shouldn't have control over people and what they put into their bodies.

Being vaccinated and getting the booster was the right choice for me (and yes, those around me). I think people need a sense of liberty in what they choose to do though, and while I might disagree with their choice not to get vaccinated, I believe it is absolutely their right to make that choice.

And I know there are people who are bound to disagree with me, and have before. But I feel as I do about that.

[stormwyrm]

All the same, it is well within the power of the government to impose restrictions on the unvaccinated. Don't want to get vaccinated, fine. Just don't expect to be able to do things like eat in restaurants, drink in bars, attend live concerts, go to the theatre, use public transportation, shop in supermarkets, physically go to school, shop in supermarkets, or work in jobs that require you to be in close proximity to other people, etc. Don't like it, get vaccinated. The rest of society shouldn't have to be hobbled by the incorrect beliefs of some of its members when these beliefs present a grave risk to society as a whole.

[Oniya]

One would think that a sense of self-preservation would result in a general preference to be vaccinated.  'I don't want to get this, therefore, I will get vaccinated.'

One would also think that a sense of empathy towards one's immediate community would cover another good-sized chunk. 'I don't want dear Mrs. F___, who's on chemo, to get this, therefore, I will get vaccinated.'

Instead, there are people that say 'Screw all of you, I'm too much of a bad-ass to get sick.  I'm now going to cough in that poor McDonald's worker's face because the ice cream machine wasn't working.'

[CopperLily]

One would also think that a sense of empathy towards one's immediate community would cover another good-sized chunk. 'I don't want dear Mrs. F___, who's on chemo, to get this, therefore, I will get vaccinated.'

One of the things I've been struggling with the most is the feelings that come from realizing some substantial proportion of our population simply lacks empathy as a response.

[Azy]

I'm with storm on this one.  I wouldn't support strapping people down and injecting them, but it is definitely becoming a matter of public health.  It's a little irritating that people seem to want to have their cake and eat it too.  They've decided they don't want the vaccine.  Fine, I do believe in choice.  However, as with most things in life, consequence comes with choice, and the consequence of not being vaccinated is not being able to be out among the people who are.  I can choose to run a stop sign, but if a cop sees me do it I'm probably gonna get a ticket, and everything that comes with that. 

[TheGlyphstone]

I'd say driving drunk would be a better, or at least closer, analogy than running a stop sign? You are free to drink, you are free to get drunk. Heck, you are free to give yourself alcohol poisoning. But when your drunkenness endangers other peoples' lives, not only yours, then it becomes actionable.

So yes, I'd also be opposed to some sort of compulsory/forced vaccination program. But I won't weep a single tear for people who can get vaccinated, choose not to, and are forced to accept the secondary consequences of this. Their freedoms do not override ours.

[AmberStarfire]

Well, if you believe that the government shouldn't have the power to force people, it's a matter of choice no matter what people's reasoning is.

But on that level of reasons, there are people who are choosing not to have it out of wariness (especially minority populations), because they have chronic health problems (and aren't sure how their problems or medications will interact with the vaccination), women who are pregnant and don't want to risk endangering their babies (despite the fact it's supposedly okay), younger people (whose parents don't want to risk getting them vaccinated, because they're not sure if it could cause problems in the long term) etc. Some people haven't decided yet, and some have.

The vaccines are probably okay, or at least they are for the vast majority of people, but lack of empathy isn't the only reason people are choosing not to get them.

Even if people are vaccinated, they can still catch and transmit the virus (though the odds of it are lower).

[AmberStarfire]

Besides, there are people out there with mental health concerns like anxiety who might not want to be vaccinated. Just because it would be easy for some people doesn't mean it would be for everyone. There are a range of reasons not everyone is getting vaccinated.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer though. I'm triple-vaxxed. I'm just pro-choice.

[Azy]

Drunk driving probably would be a better analogy.  The biggest problem seems to be misinformation as always though.  Pregnant women are hesitant because someone put it out there that the spike protein we are being vaccinated against has some similarities to the spike proteins an embryo uses to attach to the mother's uterus and could make women infertile.  The ironic thing is not getting vaccinated and contacting Covid seems to be killing the unborn children the mothers are refusing the vaccine to protect. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/hard-hit-states-add-another-concern-stillbirths-unvaccinated-women-rcna1952 

There's no concrete proof, and correlation isn't necessarily causation, but it seems safer for pregnant women to get the vaccine. 

[AmberStarfire]

Azy: They're saying now that it's safer (and a good idea for pregnant women to get vaccinated), but at the time I got the Pfizer one (before my age group in the country I'm in), they were only starting to approve it for pregnant women around that time. My nurse wasn't able to get it at the time they were vaccinating medical personnel (because she was pregnant), and they weren't entirely sure it was safe at that time. I think the wariness stems from around that time when people weren't entirely sure. At the time I first got vaccinated, I was told to use birth control or ensure I didn't get pregnant for at least two months. They don't say that now.

[Oniya]

Also, people with conditions that weigh against getting the vaccine are probably more likely to be complying with things like mask mandates, social distancing, etc.

[Thufir Hawat]

There's now good odds France might replace the sanitary pass with a vaccine pass. Here's hoping they would, and that the other countries in the EU would soon follow suit !
Freedom comes with responsibility towards oneself and towards others, and that one is sorely lacking lately.

Also, yes, drunk driving is good enough an analogy as far as I'm concerned.

[Azuresun]

I've had the Pfizer booster too. However, I have a firm belief in personal choice, and that people should have the right to determine whether or not they're vaccinated. A government shouldn't have control over people and what they put into their bodies.

Being vaccinated and getting the booster was the right choice for me (and yes, those around me). I think people need a sense of liberty in what they choose to do though, and while I might disagree with their choice not to get vaccinated, I believe it is absolutely their right to make that choice.

And I know there are people who are bound to disagree with me, and have before. But I feel as I do about that.

And that's fine, so long as the choice was based on the evidence. Anti-vaxxers love to say "freedom of choice" as code for "don't you dare question my quackery and lies".

Instead, there are people that say 'Screw all of you, I'm too much of a bad-ass to get sick.  I'm now going to cough in that poor McDonald's worker's face because the ice cream machine wasn't working.'

"Natural immunity" seems to be the anti-vaxxer rallying cry at the moment, with silly claims that it lasts all your life, and it's 14x more effective or whatever. (Never mind that all immunity is natural, and only the method of inducing it varies.)

There's a definite element of machismo in that--no, you don't need to rely on some wimpy vaccine, you can fight and beat it like a REAL MAN and be rewarded with SUPERIOR natural immunity, which is superior because we used the word "natural"! And so what if you infect someone else and they die? It just means they weren't TOUGH ENOUGH and probably led a dissolute (sinful) lifestyle to boot!

One of the things I've been struggling with the most is the feelings that come from realizing some substantial proportion of our population simply lacks empathy as a response.

My favourite is when they say Covid is harmless because it's got a 1% mortality rate. In the UK, that's about 660,000 dead, or roughly equal to the cities of Belfast & Cardiff being wiped off the map with no survivors.

[elone]

Another one. Seat belts are mandated and it is illegal to drive without one.  One reason is to protect the driver and passengers.  So why can't we mandate the vaccine? You must buy insurance for your vehicle. There are a lot of mandates out there we don't even think about anymore, some controversial and called out for interfering with our freedom.  Personally, I think insurance rates should be raised for the unvaccinated, and they should be the ones to wait for a hospital bed while others go first. Their choice, vaccines in the US are readily available for all.

[Lilias]

My favourite is when they say Covid is harmless because it's got a 1% mortality rate. In the UK, that's about 660,000 dead, or roughly equal to the cities of Belfast & Cardiff being wiped off the map with no survivors.

When an American says that I challenge them to say out loud and proud, 'A minimum of 3 million dead is an acceptable price to pay for my personal convenience' and watch them squirm. 'But I didn't...' 'Yes, you did, now say it.' No one ever has.

[Saria]

Even if people are vaccinated, they can still catch and transmit the virus (though the odds of it are lower).

I don’t think it’s been stressed enough just how much lower the odds are.

Last I bothered to check was with the “delta” variant, so I don’t know what the “omicron” numbers are like… but with the delta variant, if you are vaccinated, you are 63% less likely to transmit the virus to unvaccinated people.

However, that number is actually the low-end estimate, because it doesn’t take into account that if you’re vaccinated, you’re less likely to get infected in the first place. All told, I’ve heard the overall effectiveness of being vaccinated against infecting unvaccinated people is in around 90%.

And again, that’s 90% effectiveness against infecting unvaccinated people. Because vaccinated people are less likely to be infected, the effectiveness for vaccinated→vaccinated people would be even higher.

Once again, that’s all stuff from the delta wave. I haven’t bothered to do any research since omicron became a thing.

Well, if you believe that the government shouldn't have the power to force people, it's a matter of choice no matter what people's reasoning is.

The “personal freedom”-slash-“government overreach”-slash-“matter of choice” framing is bullshit.

Look, I’m the first person in line to rage against the machine. Freedom from coercion is my jam. I’m not only left, I’m far left… so far left I’ve gone past communist and run right into anarchist. Personal liberty is so fundamental and important to me that I even call out libertarians as being too authoritarian. In my view, for as much as the right likes to claim they’re all about personal freedom, I don’t think they’d know what real liberty was if it walked up and smacked them right in the face; they seem to think it’s nothing more than a weapon to be used to oppress others.

So of course I say that no one should ever be FORCED to get a vaccination, under any circumstances, whether by the government, or their religion, or whatever else. I’m an anarchist; I abhor all coercive power.

The problem here isn’t the bare facts that getting vaccinated should be a choice, or that personal freedom should be respected. The problem is making “personal choice” or “liberty” the framework through which vaccination is viewed and discussed.

Just because something is factually true, that doesn’t make it good to say, or a good foundation to view a topic from, or to start discussions about that topic from. It’s factually true that people of colour in the US are far, far more likely to be criminals than white people… but to simply drop that fact on the table, stripped of context, is stupid, dishonest, and wrong. Yes, you can absolutely be stupid, dishonest, and wrong when simply stating a true fact. That’s because some facts, stripped of context, are disingenuous, misleading, and even flat-out wrong. Some facts need their context to be sensible, illuminating, or meaningful. Without the context, they can actually lead away from proper understanding and correct conclusions.

And bad people know very well how to wield those kinds of facts to sow confusion and misunderstanding to their own benefit. When someone points out the rate of criminality of people of colour (in the US) like that, they absolutely should be suspected of being ignorant, deceptive, or straight-up white supremacist. They may later be discovered to be an honest idiot, but this fact—stripped of its context—is so dangerous, and so specifically dangerous (that is, its harms are targeted at a specific group) that for the overall good of society the default assumption should be that it is being used offensively, as a weapon. On its own, it naturally implies that there is likely something about people of colour that makes them more likely to be criminals. Stated just on its own, it gives too much weight to that inference. It’s only when all the context surrounding that fact is explained that the correct conclusion becomes apparent: no, there’s nothing about the people (of colour) that makes them more likely to be criminals, it’s the society—the justice system, the culture, the history—that disproportionately forces criminality on them (for example, by making them much more likely to be prosecuted than white people).

So simply stating that “black/brown people are more likely to be criminals”, and using that as the lens through which you talk about stuff—like the justice system, or the general culture, or whatever—is stupid. It’s dishonest. And it’s wrong. It doesn’t matter that it’s factually true. It’s a fact that needs so much context to be legitimate, that it cannot and should not be used on its own.

The same goes for stating the moronically obvious fact that a basic respect for human rights, bodily autonomy, and personal liberty means that vaccination should be a choice. Yes, duh, everyone gets that. But that fact, stripped of context, seduces one toward the misapprehension that what’s at issue here is a violation of personal liberty… when it’s not. This is a health issue. What’s at issue here is literally fucking life-or-death… just the life or death of someone other than oneself.

And just as it’s not only reasonable, but prudent to assume that someone basing an entire conversation on the rates of criminality among people of colour without context is actually secretly being racist, it’s both reasonable and prudent to assume that someone basing their entire vaccination position on a context-free assertion of personal liberty is secretly anti-vax.

That shouldn’t even be controversial. I mean, it’s obvious. Framing the conversation around “choice” or “freedom” is the universal play by anti-vaxxers. You know what the number one anti-vax organization is Canada is called? It’s called “Vaccine Choice Canada”. The tactic is literally spelled out in their fucking name.

As an aside, of course I understand that there are many people who have legitimate reasons to not get vaccinated, or at least reasons to be wary. Yes, obviously that includes medical reasons like compromised immune systems, and anxiety and phobias… because mental health is health. It also includes minorities and the poor; I actually pointed out elsewhere that government vaccination programs have been used many times in the past to commit genocides, or at the very least to “experiment” on people without their knowledge or consent. But bringing them up in a framework based on “personal choice” or “liberty” is transparently dishonest, and disingenuous. Because their “choice” not to take the vaccine is not an exercise in personal liberty; even calling it a “choice” is being dishonest. They’re not taking the vaccine for legitimate reasons… not simply because they felt like it. Their “choice” is qualitatively different from the “choice” in “Vaccine ‘Choice’ Canada”.

Indeed, making “liberty” the basis for your vaccine position is pretty dumb all the way through. It’s like: “Getting vaccinated is a personal choice!” Yeah, no shit, Sherlock, so is eating. No one’s forcing food down people’s throats, or denying them from eating any food they can get. Yet somehow they all still manage to make the choice to put stuff in their upper noise holes, and somehow just the right amount of stuff to keep themselves alive and healthy. Funny how their personal choices always seem to keep them, personally, alive and healthy, but when it comes to being concerned about the health of others…? Oh, but of course, they’ll freak out if I point out how that implies a sociopathic lack of empathy.

Vaccination is a discussion that requires adult intelligence, non-egocentric social awareness, and maybe even a little empathy. Whatever starting point one chooses—whatever framing for the discussion one chooses—it should be one that has baked-in the context that we’re talking about community health here. We’re primarily talking about not killing other people more so than our own, personal well-being. Whatever starting point or framework you choose for the discussion it needs to embrace or at least suggest all that context. “Personal liberty” fails abysmally at that, and, worse, it actively implies a framing that denies social awareness or community concerns.

If people want to talk about vaccination meaningfully, they need to start from a better place than personal freedom. Yes, yes, yes—I know I have to keep repeating this because 100% someone will say “Saria doesn’t believe in personal liberty!!!1!11!”—you (should) have absolute personal freedom to do anything that doesn’t violate the rights of others, all forms of coercive power are bad, and fuck the government. Yes, getting vaccinated is a private choice each person should make on their own free from coercion. All those things are true. But using those things as the basis, as the starting point for talking about vaccination is stupid, dishonest, and wrong. And anyone who does that should naturally be suspected of being anti-vax, and has no right to complain or be offended when they are assumed as such.

It’s like they say: If you don’t want to be assumed racist, maybe don’t say racist things. Similarly: If you don’t want to be called anti-vax, maybe don’t talk like an anti-vaxxer. And a good place to start would be to stop with all the “personal liberty” and “choice” bullshit.

[Azy]

Personally, I think insurance rates should be raised for the unvaccinated, and they should be the ones to wait for a hospital bed while others go first. Their choice, vaccines in the US are readily available for all.

I don't remember where I read it, but I did read that some really hard hit cities in Texas were doing just that.  They were running out of beds, so they chose to prioritize those who had been vaccinated but were having breakthrough cases.  A lot of people are getting fed up with hospitals being full and saying you know what, if you don't trust doctors enough to get the damn vaccine that they're telling you to get, then why the fuck do you suddenly trust those very same doctors when you get sick and run to the hospital to take up a bed that a vaccinated person with another serious ailment might need?  It speaks to the serious frustration felt by a lot of people at this point.   

[stormwyrm]

The decision not to get vaccinated really affects everyone, and not just because of the still somewhat scientifically sketchy reduction in disease transmission that the vaccines grant us The vast majority of people who are clogging up hospitals and taking up ICU beds these days are unvaccinated COVID-19 cases, and that means that there are less medical resources available for those who need them for other reasons. People can still fall from high windows, get hit by cars, bit by poisonous snakes, wounded by gunfire, trampled by cattle, experience heart attacks and strokes, etc.  All of those other non-COVID-19 reasons to need medical attention didn't stop happening just because of the pandemic. If enough people got vaccinated the stress on the health care system would not be as high as it is and perhaps more of those people who need medical assistance can get it properly. So unless you have an actual, science-based reason not to get vaccinated, you really should get it, so that you have less of a chance winding up clogging the hospitals and needlessly taking up the painfully finite resources of the medical system.

[Azuresun]

Saria, thank you for all of that! And on this point specifically--

It’s like they say: If you don’t want to be assumed racist, maybe don’t say racist things. Similarly: If you don’t want to be called anti-vax, maybe don’t talk like an anti-vaxxer. And a good place to start would be to stop with all the “personal liberty” and “choice” bullshit.

Talk to an anti-vaxxer, and see how long before "I'm parroting anti-vaxxer talking points totally uncritically, but I'm not an anti-vaxxer!" comes up. It's like clockwork.

[Mellific]

A lot of people are focused on the vaccine and booster, which I agree are our best defense against COVID currently and the more vaccinated people we have in our countries, the better. But what about the anti-maskers (the people who never wore a mask and never will and still get to go conduct their business at any store of their choice because management and employees won't tell them that they can't) and, the newer development, vaccinated people who decided that being vaccinated is good enough and now they are refusing to wear masks in public too?

I'm the person who's worn a mask from the start, who continues to wear a mask now, who probably wears a mask even when it's not necessary (like outside, but near other people). And I've been to grocery stores, pizza places, convenience stores, fast food restaurants and the like. Before Omicron, most people were wearing their masks. I think the majority of people still are wearing masks. But to see someone at the self checkout line without a mask on at all, with a minor who's old enough to be wearing one too, who also isn't wearing one... is just such a jarring thing.

I can't help but to feel like those of us wearing masks are doing what is expected of us. We're following the rules and we're obeying the mask mandates. But then, some people just can't even be fucked enough to consider wearing a mask to protect not only themselves, but the people around them. It just screams 'I don't give a shit about anyone else!' And maybe it hits me hard because I've lost an uncle to COVID, and he lived in a nursing home and he was a special needs person his entire life. And I can't imagine someone not caring about him. He needed us to do better, so that maybe he would've had a fighting chance.

[Annaamarth]

So, I've been playing Spinnortality lately (related, I swear) - it's a niche indy cyberpunk business management game that's all about being The Corp and trying to ensure immortality for yourself and the board and to remake the world in your image - whether you go the NGO equality-and-reform route or Corporate Imperialist or whatever.

Every region has a set of values that are weighted - material wealth vs spirituality, xenophobia versus multiculturalism, and ... here's where the relation comes in:

Collectivism vs. Individualism

Security vs. Freedom.

This is a videogame, but ... the ideas are applicable here.  Rabid individualism doesn't mean being an individual, it means only the individual matters, and fuck everyone else.  It's Objectivism.

I believe that no man is an island and we are all part of a greater social fabric - things that affect my neighbors affect me, and I should not put them at risk irresponsibly.

When someone says they are anti-mandate to me, I agree with them in principle, but follow along with "if people had the personal responsibility to be personally responsible, we would not need an nanny-state.  Unfortunately, a lot of people are personally irresponsible. By the way, could you please pull your mask over your nose? Thanks."

I wish I had only had this conversation once, but I get to perennially revisit it with coworkers.

The point is, we are seeing values-dissonance.  I would recall to the Freedom-of-choice movement that, once upon a time there was a great big war - a World War, in point of fact - and during that time a group of people Americans call the Greatest Generation made sacrifices, pulled together, cut fuel usage, cut power usage, tightened belts.  Taxes were raised, especially on the rich, and we got through that short war.

Today, these people - who often laud that generation - balk at being asked or expected to do anything.

It upsets me. It feels like cultural sociopathy.

[Oniya]

Mr. Oniya works in a sporting goods store (the one with the unfortunate name that you see in memes).

They have an employee mask mandate, and even have company-branded masks for the employees.  Corporate has said it's part of dress-code.  And yet, he and one of the managers (possibly others) now have a catch-phrase:  'I see noses in [department]' - meaning that some of the employees aren't wearing their masks correctly.  There's one guy who even wears it as a chin strap.  There have been complaints from customers that people aren't wearing them correctly.

He's brought it up to his manager, who recently had a quick meeting about vaccinations (boosters aren't required, but if you don't have a card, you have to have weekly testing) - 'Hey, it's a new year, Christmas rush is over*.  Are we going to start enforcing it?  Like, with write-ups for being out of uniform and such?'

I'll keep y'all informed.

*

During Christmas rush, they were so swamped that 'having a pulse and three brain cells' seemed to be the employment conditions.

[Beorning]

Back here, Jarosław Kaczyński (Poland's de facto dictator) said in one recent interview that there's no point in introducing any further restrictions in our country, as people won't be obeying them anyway. And the government has no way on enforcing them. You know, the same government that, last year, was sending plainclothes cops with telescopic batons to beat up women who were protesting against the abortion ban... with the justification that these women were creating a pandemic risk. 

Once again, it shows that our government gave up regarding Covid and the anti-vaxer demands...

BTW. What are your countries' policies regarding New Year's Eve celebrations? Because back here, the state TV organized a concert for 30 000 people... Which seems insane to me. Also, in my cities people are gathering tonight in public spaces - drinking, shouting etc. Am I paranoid or is it kind of irresponsible?