Coronavirus: Discussion and Information

[Saria]

There's the old adage called Hanlon's razor: never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. Based on what we know, I think many of the elites and political leaders really are idiots, Trump foremost among them, and that is a better explanation of their behaviour than 4D chess-style long-range planning. Postulating that runs afoul of another more famous philosophical razor, one attributed to William of Ockham.

Truth.

I’d add that not only are most of the political elite dumb as fuck, they also think the general population is dumb as all hell too. (This is pretty standard, though; when someone is a thing, they tend to think everyone else is too. Selfish assholes invariably think the whole world is full of selfish assholes, contrary to all the evidence.) Of course there are some smart people among them—and of course there are many who are smart in very limited contexts or capacities, that just happen to be things that work well for them as politicians. But most politicians are dumb as bricks. You learn that pretty quickly once you start meeting a bunch of them.

It’s probably true that large numbers of politicians and political fixers really did (do?) believe the pandemic was no big deal, blinded by their own hyper-partisan ideology and information bubbles. Certainly enough of them did monumentally stupid and dangerous things—like having big, mask-less rallies—that no-one would do if they really believed in the threat of the disease.

But even those that didn’t disbelieve the pandemic warnings probably weren’t scheming about asymmetric rural/urban death rates or anything so clever. More likely they just thought they’d make things difficult for the Democrats by being contrarian, and figured that if/when they had to answer for it, they’d just deny, deflect, and dissemble… and since the population has the attention span of a goldfish (in their view), they’d ride it out until it passed. That seems to be a pretty standard modus operandi for politicians of all stripes. It’s almost a trope that opposition politicians mock/downplay the seriousness of the decisions the ruling party has to make… and then when they take power, suddenly they’re making exactly the same decisions, but now they pretend it makes perfect sense. Or vice versa: politicians who were just booted out of power relentlessly criticize the government… for carrying on with the exact policies the politicians had implemented when they were in power.

[Oniya]

It turns out that the US Supreme Court has already ruled on the constitutionality of vaccine mandates.

In 1905.

“There is, of course, a sphere within which the individual may assert the supremacy of his own will and rightfully dispute the authority of any human government,” Harlan, writing for the majority, acknowledged. “But it is equally true that, in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.”

[Azy]

Truth.

I’d add that not only are most of the political elite dumb as fuck, they also think the general population is dumb as all hell too. (This is pretty standard, though; when someone is a thing, they tend to think everyone else is too. Selfish assholes invariably think the whole world is full of selfish assholes, contrary to all the evidence.) Of course there are some smart people among them—and of course there are many who are smart in very limited contexts or capacities, that just happen to be things that work well for them as politicians. But most politicians are dumb as bricks. You learn that pretty quickly once you start meeting a bunch of them.

It’s probably true that large numbers of politicians and political fixers really did (do?) believe the pandemic was no big deal, blinded by their own hyper-partisan ideology and information bubbles. Certainly enough of them did monumentally stupid and dangerous things—like having big, mask-less rallies—that no-one would do if they really believed in the threat of the disease.

But even those that didn’t disbelieve the pandemic warnings probably weren’t scheming about asymmetric rural/urban death rates or anything so clever. More likely they just thought they’d make things difficult for the Democrats by being contrarian, and figured that if/when they had to answer for it, they’d just deny, deflect, and dissemble… and since the population has the attention span of a goldfish (in their view), they’d ride it out until it passed. That seems to be a pretty standard modus operandi for politicians of all stripes. It’s almost a trope that opposition politicians mock/downplay the seriousness of the decisions the ruling party has to make… and then when they take power, suddenly they’re making exactly the same decisions, but now they pretend it makes perfect sense. Or vice versa: politicians who were just booted out of power relentlessly criticize the government… for carrying on with the exact policies the politicians had implemented when they were in power.

What bothered me though was in order to attend these rallies without masks one had to sign a waiver that they wouldn't sue if they did get the virus at the rally. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/trump-rally-supporters-sign-coronavirus-waiver

People signed these.  If it really wasn't a big deal, why did they find this necessary?  That would have given me a lot of pause. 

[TheGlyphstone]

Think how many people check "I Agree" at the bottom of the EULA without ever reading it.

Or look at it this way - if its harmless and not a big threat, why worry about signing your rights to sue for something that won't happen away? Its not like you'll want or need to do it anyways, so no harm done. [/logic]

[Azy]

I'm guilty of not always reading the fine print.  It's become a part of modern life, and it's small, and probably intentionally technical.  Not that I'm the type to ever go to a rally like that in a pandemic in the first place, but that was just one of the many what the fuck moments for me. 

[Oreo]

Hubby did that at church. Made me mad because he could still bring it home to me, no matter what he signed. I would never sue someone because it is not in me to do that, but dang ...it doesn't just affect yourself. It affects everyone you come in contact with.

[BlueOrange]

Think how many people check "I Agree" at the bottom of the EULA without ever reading it.

Or look at it this way - if its harmless and not a big threat, why worry about signing your rights to sue for something that won't happen away? Its not like you'll want or need to do it anyways, so no harm done. [/logic]

The supporters sign because they don’t think it’s a big deal. Trump asks them to sign because he’s a liar, whose first priority has always been avoiding liability.

[Lustful Bride]

So now the choice is A: Get the Free Government Vaccine.  or B: Get the Horse Medicine that leaves you impotent.   This just got funny.

https://www.latintimes.com/ivermectin-causes-impotence-men-study-shows-poisoning-caused-horse-dewormer-168-amid-485417

[stormwyrm]

So now the choice is A: Get the Free Government Vaccine.  or B: Get the Horse Medicine that leaves you impotent.   This just got funny.

https://www.latintimes.com/ivermectin-causes-impotence-men-study-shows-poisoning-caused-horse-dewormer-168-amid-485417

My irony meter would have exploded again if I ever bothered to fix it... Of course there have long been unfounded claims that vaccines are going to sterilise women, long ago for the HPV vaccine, respun for the COVID-19 vaccines.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-vaccines-are-going-to-sterilize-our-womenfolk-take-2/

All bullshit naturally, but that's the way these people roll.

[TheGlyphstone]

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-executive-branch-18fb12993f05be13bf760946a6fb89be

New regulations from OSHA are going to mandate any business with more than 100 employees have vaccines or weekly testing conducted.

The howls of furious rage have already begun, and it's not even implemented yet.

[Annaamarth]

So, this probably won't be most people's favorite source - but the new line coming out of Breitbart - and look forward to this line coming out of other right-wing US outlets - is that telling conservatives to take the vaccine is a plot to convince conservatives to not take the vaccine.

Link here.

Some of the text in here, but there is some, well ... Breitbart-y language in there. Read with caution.

If I wanted to use reverse psychology to convince people not to get a life-saving vaccination, I would do exactly what Stern and the left are doing… I would bully and taunt and mock and ridicule you for not getting vaccinated, knowing the human response would be, Hey, fuck you, I’m never getting vaccinated!

And why is that a perfectly human response? Because no one ever wants to feel like they are being bullied or ridiculed or mocked or pushed into doing anything.

Who wants to cave to piece of shit like Howard Stern (or Jimmy Kimmel or these repulsive doctors refusing to treat the unvaccinated or Bette Midler or, or, or…) Who wants to feel like they’re caving to a guy who’s such a piece of shit he publicly mocks people who have died. And he’s not just a piece of shit mocking them; he’s a piece of shit hurting the families the dead men left behind.

No one wants to cave to a piece of shit like that, or a scumbag like Fauci, or any of the scumbags at CNNLOL, so we don’t. And what’s the result? They’re all vaccinated, and we’re not! And when you look at the numbers, the only numbers that matter, which is who’s dying, it’s overwhelmingly the unvaccinated who are dying, and they have just manipulated millions of their political enemies into the unvaccinated camp.

This, quite frankly, flabbergasts me.  The mental gymnastics behind turning the advice to just take the damn vaccine into some kind of  ... elementary school reverse psychology idiocy? That is incredible to me.

Not the ... "us vs. them", strongman vs. weakness mentality of the language, of course. I totally understand that's a core part of both the current authright mindset and radicalizing propaganda, so there is no surprise there.  It doesn't thrill that the language is there, but I understand it.  It's the premise that boggles me.

[clonkertink]

So, this probably won't be most people's favorite source - but the new line coming out of Breitbart - and look forward to this line coming out of other right-wing US outlets - is that telling conservatives to take the vaccine is a plot to convince conservatives to not take the vaccine.

Link here.

Some of the text in here, but there is some, well ... Breitbart-y language in there. Read with caution.

This, quite frankly, flabbergasts me.  The mental gymnastics behind turning the advice to just take the damn vaccine into some kind of  ... elementary school reverse psychology idiocy? That is incredible to me.

Not the ... "us vs. them", strongman vs. weakness mentality of the language, of course. I totally understand that's a core part of both the current authright mindset and radicalizing propaganda, so there is no surprise there.  It doesn't thrill that the language is there, but I understand it.  It's the premise that boggles me.

I'm trying to imagine the conversation they had in the boardroom.

"Okay, so vaccine denial is actively killing our subscriber base, but if we tell people to get vaccinated, they'll brand us a liberal media outlet and leave."

"We just gotta go back to basics. The new conspiracy is that liberals don't want conservatives to be vaccinated."

"But they're literally telling everyone to get vaccinated."

"EXACTLY! And what's the one thing our subscribers would never do? Listen to a liberal."



Next up: Universal healthcare is a liberal conspiracy to keep conservatives from wanting free healthcare.

[Laughing Hyena]

As a person that has to listen to Fox News among other propaganda news networks from the far right, (Mother and Aunt are religiously watching it in the living room, whenever they think nothing else is on.) I can tell you thats accurate in terms of what they said in a nutshell, clonkertink.

[TheGlyphstone]

Man, if only it was that easy.

"Hey, please don't jump off that bridge over shark infested waters!"

"Screw you, I have my freeeeeedommmmssss....sploosh"

[Dhi]

Weird that they feel pressure now, six months after the actual pressure, now that the strategy has changed from convincing the unvaccinated into protecting society from antivaxxer fallout. There's a fantasy at play that God and Satan and all of us care so deeply about their hearts and minds that we'll keep this fight going forever. No. It was over in July. Now each of us numbly waits for enough weaponized partisans to die that the danger subsides.

[Azy]

One reason I will not go to my local Wendy's is the owner has Fox News playing in the lobby.  I had to be in there once for like an hour waiting for someone.  Thankfully the loss of IQ was temporary.  If the liberal people saying get the vaccine is them really trying to discourage people from getting vaccinated, then 'own' them and get vaccinated. 

https://thegailygrind.com/2020/05/25/in-disturbing-trend-conservative-men-are-pointing-loaded-guns-at-their-crotches-to-own-libs/

This was last year, but the stupidity coming from these people just.... how do they function by themselves?  Okay, you shot yourself in the crotch, great job 'owning' me.....

[Oreo]

It all comes down to do what is right for you in the end. This blaming others isn't helping the conditions. What has me concerned is the vicious hate that spills from the far end of both sides.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.” Or so said the fifteenth-century monk and poet, John Lydgate.

[Azy]

There is this giant wall of frustration though.  The vaccine was supposed to put an end to the pandemic, but because it go so politicized I fear it is the pandemic that will never end.  A new variant will pop up while using these unvaccinated people as breeding hosts, and we'll need a vaccine update to deal with it.  The government doesn't seem to want to shell out any more money, leaving millions just screwed. 

https://www.cnet.com/personal-finance/the-federal-eviction-moratorium-is-gone-what-renters-should-know-now/

The article says aid will be made available, but I know a few people who tried to apply for programs and just never heard back.  I know, part of the problem is everyone needs help and these offices can only do so much at a time, but that's just making things worse.  I am usually pro responsible government budgeting, but this is a major disaster.  It makes me wanna scream because if people would just stop playing games then something could be done.   

[Annaamarth]

It all comes down to do what is right for you in the end. This blaming others isn't helping the conditions. What has me concerned is the vicious hate that spills from the far end of both sides.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.” Or so said the fifteenth-century monk and poet, John Lydgate.

I'm ... not positive a both-sides argument is entirely plausible - yes, there are extremists on both sides, but the mainstream ideologies are not similar - defining "mainstream" as prominently voiced across the party and represented in governemnt.

On the left-mainstream you have BLM, CRT, universal healthcare, vaccines, lgbtq pride and maybe something so extreme as a universal basic income. It's not all sunshine and rainbows - I don't think Harris or Biden are saints on racial justice for example, and AOC has been consistent in her ideals and messaging.

On the right-mainstream you have Q, widespread gaslighting re: election and 06Jan, "western civilization" pride, and a prominence of strongman language - as seen in the Breitbart article and regularly on Tucker Carlson, as casual examples. Oh, and "my body my choice" for vaccines, but not abortions, and Blue Lives Matter, until those blue lives are enforcing against them- a common example there being the contradiction displayed by a thin blue line flag window sticker adjacent to a "you can have my guns, bullets first" sticker.

You could try to include far-left antifa organizers and demonstrators in the left group, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate to call them "mainstream," any more than I would describe proudboys and threepercenters as mainstream - except that we have representatives Greene and Boebert to serve as mainstream examples who might be described as proudboy-adjacent.

So. In the case of COVID (the primary subject of this thread), I think it is entirely appropriate to blame antivaxx, the vaccine-hesitant, antimask and the thoughtlessly unmasked - who all tend to trend right - for spreading conditions.  That said, things aren't so bad in my jeck of the woods as in other parts of the US, so I don't go out of my way to spew vitriol.

I hope I have read as even and measured here.

There is this giant wall of frustration though.  The vaccine was supposed to put an end to the pandemic, but because it go so politicized I fear it is the pandemic that will never end.  A new variant will pop up while using these unvaccinated people as breeding hosts, and we'll need a vaccine update to deal with it.  The government doesn't seem to want to shell out any more money, leaving millions just screwed. 

https://www.cnet.com/personal-finance/the-federal-eviction-moratorium-is-gone-what-renters-should-know-now/

The article says aid will be made available, but I know a few people who tried to apply for programs and just never heard back.  I know, part of the problem is everyone needs help and these offices can only do so much at a time, but that's just making things worse.  I am usually pro responsible government budgeting, but this is a major disaster.  It makes me wanna scream because if people would just stop playing games then something could be done.   

An additional barrier to vaccination boosting - which would be beneficial - is the need for other nations to get initially vaccinated.  The USA does not exist in a vacuum and is not the main character of this story.

[Oreo]

You came across just fine, Annaamarth. I am a vaccer, but me shaming an anti-vaccer is not going to make them get a vaccine. Same in reverse. I will not be shamed into not getting vaccinated. It's all so frustrating. Sad thing is the stress cannot be conductive to good health if someone does get sick. All the hurt and hate out there is affecting me.

[stormwyrm]

The pandemic is probably going to end in another year or two give or take, no matter what we do, no matter how many people get vaccinated or not. A rapidly spreading respiratory pandemic will eventually burn itself out when enough people become immune, either from wild type infection or vaccination. Vaccination will only affect how many dead bodies and chronically ill will be needed to get to that point. The more people get vaccinated, the less death and maiming will be needed to burn it out. It may then become endemic after that, requiring childhood vaccination, but no longer causing severe illness among adults, who are no longer immunologically naïve.

[Azy]

You came across just fine, Annaamarth. I am a vaccer, but me shaming an anti-vaccer is not going to make them get a vaccine. Same in reverse. I will not be shamed into not getting vaccinated. It's all so frustrating. Sad thing is the stress cannot be conductive to good health if someone does get sick. All the hurt and hate out there is affecting me.

You do have a point.  When I last spoke to my therapist over video one of the things we talked about is that mental health is suffering most of all.  Everyone on both sides is just seriously stressed out.  And no, the US doesn't exist in a vacuum.  The delta variant originally popped up in India I think.  Or was it England?  But a much better job could be done when it comes to handling it if people weren't being so....  I don't even know what the word is.  I know some very liberal people who think the vaccine is the government's way of getting us to submit into slavery, so....   

[Annaamarth]

You came across just fine, Annaamarth. I am a vaccer, but me shaming an anti-vaccer is not going to make them get a vaccine. Same in reverse. I will not be shamed into not getting vaccinated. It's all so frustrating. Sad thing is the stress cannot be conductive to good health if someone does get sick. All the hurt and hate out there is affecting me.

Totally understandable!  I won't use shame to convince someone to change.  I will set boundaries and tell someone who is living in a way that is not compatible with my own what those boundaries are.  I can't welcome someone unvaccinated and without precautions under my roof, for example - and some people may have felt shamed by that.  Unfortunately, I cannot control how my message is heard - only what I say as best as I can.

You do have a point.  When I last spoke to my therapist over video one of the things we talked about is that mental health is suffering most of all.  Everyone on both sides is just seriously stressed out.  And no, the US doesn't exist in a vacuum.  The delta variant originally popped up in India I think.  Or was it England?  But a much better job could be done when it comes to handling it if people weren't being so....  I don't even know what the word is.  I know some very liberal people who think the vaccine is the government's way of getting us to submit into slavery, so....   

India is correct, last October.  Pre-vaccine.  As for the word to describe what some segments of the population are being, I like "intransigent."

The pandemic is probably going to end in another year or two give or take, no matter what we do, no matter how many people get vaccinated or not. A rapidly spreading respiratory pandemic will eventually burn itself out when enough people become immune, either from wild type infection or vaccination. Vaccination will only affect how many dead bodies and chronically ill will be needed to get to that point. The more people get vaccinated, the less death and maiming will be needed to burn it out. It may then become endemic after that, requiring childhood vaccination, but no longer causing severe illness among adults, who are no longer immunologically naïve.

When word of NCoV19 first started spreading in January, I thought "no big deal, just another flu, it'll join the ecosystem and we'll ride it out - like SARS, MERS and the others."  I was wrong then.  I hope you're right today, but I'm not sure.  The mechanism of damage of COVID is different from a flu - the autoimmune responses are particularly different, and that makes me wonder whether this will fade to the background the way a "simple" respiratory flu does.

I don't want to say it's hopeless - I'm just feeling cautious.  I hope that makes sense.

[stormwyrm]

It looks like DeSantis has appointed Dr. Joseph Ladapo, of the COVID-19 quackery-promoting America's Frontline Doctors as Florida's new Surgeon General. His predecessor seems to have resigned in disgust after the many pro-COVID-19 policies DeSantis instituted. Seems he needed someone to rubber stamp a medical imprimatur on policies that no doctor who still accepted science would countenance.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/dr-joseph-ladapo-of-americas-frontline-doctors-is-now-in-charge-of-public-health-in-florida/

Take care, all you folks there.

[Azuresun]

It all comes down to do what is right for you in the end. This blaming others isn't helping the conditions. What has me concerned is the vicious hate that spills from the far end of both sides.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.” Or so said the fifteenth-century monk and poet, John Lydgate.

As an adult with autism, I can say that Andrew Wakefield and the other anti-vaxxer ringleaders are the closest thing to pure evil you will find in the world, and have not had enough vicious hate directed their way. This is not a both-sides issue.