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Author Topic: EU Referendum / BREXIT  (Read 9449 times)

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Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2016, 04:43:01 AM »
Also, I can recognize the lofty ideal ambitions of the EU, but I can't see any realistic way of getting there from the state the EU has been digging into over the last ten years or so. It's only getting more bureaucratic, more jumbled and less accountable (even corrupt sometimes).
National governments have always been bureaucratic, jumbled, and unaccountable, even way before the EU. The EU is just an easy target to blame all that on while ignoring the fact that national governments are just as messed up. I think for many people claiming that "our government could be great if only for the EU" is just a way to excuse themselves for electing politicians who supported those "bad" decisions in the first place. The politicians you elected didn't reign in the EU? Who is to blame? The EU, or just maybe you for electing those politicians? Really? Me? My vote? Of course not!

(Please note that I am employing a wee bit of hyperbole here and do not intend to use "you" in the sense of adressing any specific reader personally.)

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2016, 04:44:18 AM »
National governments have always been bureaucratic, jumbled, and unaccountable, even way before the EU. The EU is just an easy target to blame all that on while ignoring the fact that national governments are just as messed up. I think for many people claiming that "our government could be great if only for the EU" is just a way to excuse themselves for electing politicians who supported those "bad" decisions in the first place.

I agree, the problems won't magically disappear now.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2016, 04:54:31 AM »
Initial market reaction seems to have settled. Cost us around two hundred billion pounds today so far and I'd imagine that number will go up not down.

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2016, 05:44:06 AM »
There's a slight silver lining to that - it's a taste of what will happen if the UK does leave (this vote was nothing more than a strawpoll, and as legally binding) which will hopefully keep the MPs from voting 'leave' right out the gate. The debate will probably be batted around for a couple of years to give the illusion they are considering it, then quietly shot when the public find something else to freak out over. 

*crosses fingers*

(also, wow, Farage does the fastest U-turn on his over inflated promise real fast)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:48:49 AM by Dim Hon »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2016, 06:03:23 AM »
It would be like the Eagles put it, "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave".  :P

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2016, 06:04:45 AM »
* Dim Hon laughs

thank you, Louise, I needed that~

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2016, 06:19:29 AM »
There's a slight silver lining to that - it's a taste of what will happen if the UK does leave (this vote was nothing more than a strawpoll, and as legally binding) which will hopefully keep the MPs from voting 'leave' right out the gate. The debate will probably be batted around for a couple of years to give the illusion they are considering it, then quietly shot when the public find something else to freak out over. 

*crosses fingers*

(also, wow, Farage does the fastest U-turn on his over inflated promise real fast)

I'd be very very surprised if that's what happens. Hope to hod it does and we're granted a second chance but that's not really what is being suggested.

Offline Dim Hon

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2016, 06:21:26 AM »
shhhh I'm in denial

Offline Lilias

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2016, 06:26:19 AM »
Well, Little Britain doesn't exactly have the same kind of ring, does it? ;D

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2016, 06:34:08 AM »
Well, Mr.Juncker said just before the referendum that if there was a Remain win there would be nothing further that Cameron could get in negotiations with the EU, no further whittling down on anything (and this likely helped the Exit side) but he may just have been trying a tough tactic. perhaps showing off that "if the Brits vote out, they won't be getting an easy ride either, so watch your step" .- without coming right out and saying it.   ;)

Maybe have to count in that some of the things politicians would be saying, in the UK and in Europe, will be more about position fighting or about trying to stick to a certain line than about their real limits to what they're gonna accept.

Also, I think Kythia had a very good point somewhere up this thread that there's no way the Commonwealth could really make up for the EU, not as trade partners, nor as political brothers on the world stage. Not in the short term anyway, let's say the next decade or two.

Offline AmberStarfire

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2016, 07:27:05 AM »
This concerns me personally. The only reason I can live and work here in Ireland is because I have EU treaty rights. I'm not sure what this means for me being here. At the moment I have my papers in order until 2019, but after that (I don't think before it) I may lose all rights to be here.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2016, 07:48:26 AM »
This concerns me personally. The only reason I can live and work here in Ireland is because I have EU treaty rights. I'm not sure what this means for me being here. At the moment I have my papers in order until 2019, but after that (I don't think before it) I may lose all rights to be here.

My wife has similar concerns. We live in Belgium, but she's a UK resident. She has a temporary card that got permanently extended because we're married and have a child. Normally there shouldn't be an issue, but she might be in bureaucratic hell for a bit, including for travel in and out of the country on her id card -or- her UK passport...
I'm going to have to check whether I need to get a passport too, since the UK normally fell under the Treaty of Shengen so my id could just function as my passport. I doubt this will change, but you never know. I hope you get some clarity soon; my wife's nervous, either way.

Offline AmberStarfire

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2016, 07:56:02 AM »
I'm sorry to hear your family are facing this situation too, RV. Looking up information online, it seems like British ex-pats won't need to leave other countries overnight, but I'm not sure to what extent it varies by country. Is the Brexit vote decided now or is it still ongoing?

I'm in the Republic of Ireland so it's not a part of the UK, but my husband has a UK passport, which is why I can be here. I probably could apply for a UK passport myself, but again that isn't going to help me. I'm looking online to find out how it will affect me but so far I haven't found the information I'm looking for.


Offline Lilias

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2016, 08:07:08 AM »
I'm looking online to find out how it will affect me but so far I haven't found the information I'm looking for.

This might help, concerning the ROI. The UK literature hasn't been updated yet, which is only to be expected. Whenever the break is implemented, it is likely to mean residence cards for all at first.

Offline AmberStarfire

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2016, 08:23:33 AM »
Thanks Lilias. I've been legally resident for over 8 years, so I could likely remain on those grounds. However, when I was going from temporary visas to the EU Treaty Rights, it was the latter that I needed, so I'm not sure.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #90 on: June 24, 2016, 08:24:14 AM »
Well, Mr.Juncker said just before the referendum that if there was a Remain win there would be nothing further that Cameron could get in negotiations with the EU, no further whittling down on anything (and this likely helped the Exit side) but he may just have been trying a tough tactic. perhaps showing off that "if the Brits vote out, they won't be getting an easy ride either, so watch your step" .- without coming right out and saying it.   ;)

Maybe have to count in that some of the things politicians would be saying, in the UK and in Europe, will be more about position fighting or about trying to stick to a certain line than about their real limits to what they're gonna accept.
If EU officials make any concesions to the Brits during exit negotiations they will shoot themselves in the foot. If the UK is, essentially, allowed to be "in" while being "out" everyone would go that way and it would be the end of the EU. Or, at least, that's the conventional wisdom, far as I can tell.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2016, 09:51:23 AM »
If EU officials make any concesions to the Brits during exit negotiations they will shoot themselves in the foot. If the UK is, essentially, allowed to be "in" while being "out" everyone would go that way and it would be the end of the EU. Or, at least, that's the conventional wisdom, far as I can tell.

Yes, but Juncker meant Cameron's bid to "renegotiate" some key parts of Britain's membership deal after a win. Which he had hoped to get, but didn't, of course. So it would have been "in, but better off" not "out but still in". Of course "in, but with a revamped deal" could have been a puller for more countries to try to go the same way, but the UK is a much bigger player in the EU than Slovakia, Hungary or Belgium, so it's always had better chances of getting its own way.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:09:31 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Kythia

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Offline Lilias

« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:21:17 PM by Lilias »

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2016, 03:36:18 PM »
Until The Donald is elected, at least.

http://fusion.net/story/318640/delete-your-golf-course/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fusion&utm_content=link

That's true, there's light on the horizon. Fingers crossed they're stupider than us when given the chance. I do enjoy making fun of them.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2016, 03:37:01 PM »
Apparently Cameron is resigning.  Well, at least the man has class. 

If he were in the U.S., he'd be calling for a recount, accusing the system of being rigged, demanding that his supporters go out and protest, seeking the ouster of every election official, and insisting that regardless of the math he can still win!!!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2016, 03:56:02 PM »
To be fair, if Cameron had to pay millions of pounds out-of-pocket to become Prime Minister in the first place, in addition to whatever donations and supporters he accumulated, he might be a bit less rational/more emotionally invested in keeping what he'd "won".

Some days I'm envious of countries like the UK for having what looks like a far more sensible form of government. Other times I'm more keenly aware of the flaws that parliamentary government has. I'm not sure which one today is.

Offline Azrael

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2016, 04:00:20 AM »
the result is an unmitigated disaster, and one that nobody has got anything from.  Farage is marching around like a smug twat declaring victory, and the Leavers are thrilled.  except that everything the Leave campaign promised was a lie that they withdrew hours after winning.  So even if you were a small minded racist, you still haven't won, because Britain will not be cutting immigration.  or cutting EU red tape, or funding the NHS.  the referendum has done nothing but cause severe harm economically, and for the future.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #98 on: June 25, 2016, 04:24:06 AM »
The fastest route to applying some kind of damage control, once they start negotiating (in July or in a few months time?), might be to go for putting Britain inside the EEA sphere, like Norway and Iceland. A kind of margin "quarter-member status". But it would really mean most of the supposed goals of the Brexit campaign - taking back a firmer control of what laws apply in the UK, cutting red tape, stopping free movement of people with Europe - would effectively vapourize. Norway is a rich country because of its oil fields, but it still has to accept a lot of what the EU decide about trade and economy, without much of a chance to pitch its own demands. If they pushed their feet into the ground and made definite demands, the EU would just be able to threaten cutting down on their EEA status and the trade agreements they are enjoying. Plus the UK, as an EEA but non-EU country, would still be paying most or all of its EU membership fee, but getting no investments, no support in return. That would be a real nail in the eye to Farage, Boris and most people from the Brexit campaign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/24/the-sky-has-not-fallen-after-brexit-but-we-face-years-of-hard-la/

Offline Azrael

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2016, 06:22:44 AM »
all of those goals have gone already, Leave abandoned them yesterday.

the 'Norway option' is the best chance we have left, and that is just ending up with a much worse version of what we had to begin with.