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Author Topic: EU Referendum / BREXIT  (Read 17608 times)

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Online HairyHeretic

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #150 on: June 25, 2016, 05:56:40 PM »
This seems to be one of the main ones

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

I'll have a quick look, see if I can find links to any of the other stuff.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #151 on: June 25, 2016, 06:01:40 PM »
Well that's pretty scummy.

Levity moment:

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/746262774133702656/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

This is the cake Mr. Farage apparently celebrated his victory with/had prepared for the victory party. Someone please tell me I'm not the only person who doesn't see a 'champagne bottle' as the first thing that design resembles.

Offline Stan'

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #152 on: June 25, 2016, 06:03:29 PM »
Yup, the "leave" parties were also full of lies and exaggerated claims.  Though I've yet to meet or talk to any one who believed that the entire £350m (or whatever the correct figure is) would be put right back in to Britain.  Whenever you vote for a particular party, you always take a lot of it with a pinch of salt.  Britain has always been been the same (the Lib Dems with their Tuition Fees backtrack for example) and I'm sure the likes of America is exactly the same.

I do think that the MPs who voted leave are actually stunned that it happened, and yes, I agree that they probably don't have a concrete plan in place for what happens next.  But the way the vote was portrayed, it was made out as if the moment we voted "exit", the country would implode inside a black hole.  Yes, the markets are down, but there is already signs of recovery.  We're still here.  We're all still alive.  And I think that as soon as the young people stop parading about like hippies, and sit down and realise it's not the end of the world, then in retrospect, it'll go down as the best decision the United Kingdom has made in decades.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #153 on: June 25, 2016, 06:06:19 PM »
That remains to be seen, but no one is going to know the full effects for years, and at least in the short term there is going to be a lot of pain by the looks of things.

Offline Stan'

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #154 on: June 25, 2016, 06:09:39 PM »
Yeah, and I think that's why there was such a split.  There was going to be a lot of short term pain, but long term gain.  The uncertainty was how much short term pain there was actually going to be, and we've yet to see it.  One country had to get the ball rolling, but the biggest question now is -- will the United Kingdom even exist by the time the country actually leaves the EU?

Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #155 on: June 25, 2016, 06:12:24 PM »
I don't think the Kingdom has been United for a long time. I was surprised that the Scots didn't vote for independence before - pretty sure they will now. Maybe even Northern Island.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #156 on: June 25, 2016, 06:26:01 PM »
I'm sure the likes of America is exactly the same.

They are.  Some of the most successful candidates over here are the ones promising all kinds of magical, wonderful things.  Fortunately there were enough of us who saw through one attempt to peddle snake oil to block him.   With luck, we'll have enough people who see through the second before November.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #157 on: June 25, 2016, 06:28:51 PM »
Indeed. One side peddling snake oil, the other pounding hard on the drums of fear. Remarkably similar now that you point it out.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #158 on: June 25, 2016, 06:40:02 PM »
Yeah, and I think that's why there was such a split.  There was going to be a lot of short term pain, but long term gain.  The uncertainty was how much short term pain there was actually going to be, and we've yet to see it.  One country had to get the ball rolling, but the biggest question now is -- will the United Kingdom even exist by the time the country actually leaves the EU?

The amount of long term gain also remains to be seen. I think there's a fair chance this could lead to Scotland splitting off, which means any prior economic forecasts will be voided. Northern Ireland brings another set of issues as with Ireland still in the EU you have a long border there to secure, so good luck with that one. The spectre of renewed violence has also been raised as a possibility for the future. Spain is talking joint sovereignty for Gibraltar. Given that over 95% of the population there voted remain, that isn't going to be cut and dried either.

There may be long term gain. I don't know enough to do more than make guesses based on news stories I've read. But if there are gains, there are going to be losses as well, short and long term, I would say.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #159 on: June 25, 2016, 07:09:26 PM »

The top brass of the EU have made it clear that they will make Britain (regardless of what part, whether it is Scotland, England, Wales or N. Ireland) regret voting to leave.  Sure, the majority of Scots and Irish voted to stay in, but that doesn't mean anything to the Europeans.  If Scotland go independent, we'll have as much influence on the European stage as Andorra (no offence to them).  We'll need to adopt the Euro, which will be devastating for the economy, as well as bending over backwards to every rule and regulation that the EU wants to impose to new members.

Well, in all fairness, compared to what Britain was a century ago, I am going to go out on a limb and say that this is probably going to happen whether or not they decided to remain in the EU.

Honestly though, I think the overall impact of Brexit is going to prove relatively minor. Sure, some investors will lose money somewhere, and possibly the UK may decide to break apart if the Scottish really are that sore over it, but I don't see this impacting me personally in a big way, or at all.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #160 on: June 25, 2016, 10:01:37 PM »
Quick update, it looks like the EU is actually welcoming the idea more than was originally thought: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/uk-faces-brexit-crisis

Kinda reminds me of a bad breakup as a matter of fact.

Offline eyeshield22

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2016, 01:09:05 AM »
An interesting quirk in the entire process is a report from the house of lords on the entire "Brexit" process  is the fact that Scotland and the rest of the devolved nations in the UK are going to need to give consent too the entire process via the Scotland Act of 1998. It isn't a veto over the process per say, but it does add an extra layer of complexity on the situation in addition to the economic issues. Depending on whoever the new prime minister happens to be they will have to negotiate a rather thorny situation.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/138.pdf house of lord's report specifically section 70 and 71

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/06/15/brexit-devolution-and-legislative-consent-what-if-the-devolution-statutes-were-left-unchanged-after-brexit/

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/06/13/removing-references-to-eu-law-from-the-devolution-legislation-would-invoke-the-sewel-convention/

blog by a London law professor who extrapolates on the legal side of the problems that Brexit will have to answer and the pitfalls those answers might enjoin.

Offline TaintedAndDelishTopic starter

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2016, 01:40:02 AM »

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2016, 05:11:51 AM »
I'm starting to see a lot anti immigrant nastiness showing up in social media stories now. "We voted out, so f**k off back to your own country"

Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #164 on: June 26, 2016, 05:52:22 AM »
I'm starting to see a lot anti immigrant nastiness showing up in social media stories now. "We voted out, so f**k off back to your own country"

Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.

Aye to that! Cameron is probably wishing he hadn't gambled on a referendum, but actually saying "we won't act on this because it's an unwise road to go down, and too many people are having second thoughts about this stuff now" would be the nail in the coffin for the PM's credibility as far as he/she would be doing any negotiations with other European leaders.

(I could easily see that petition gathering something like ten million signatures in a few weeks time...)  :P

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #165 on: June 26, 2016, 06:11:35 AM »
Maybe, maybe not. The referendum isn't legally binding, and until the government request to leave the EU, things don't change. On top of that, I'm seeing news stories that indicate Scotland and potentially Northern Ireland could refuse to ratify any leave decision. I don't know if that would block things entirely, or just add a lot more paperwork to the process.

It seems a number of the other EU counties are indicating a 'good riddance, now get out' attitude towards the UK, so they may have maneuvered themselves into pretty much a no win situation at this point. There's a part of me wonders if the whole Leave side was just a political gamble to get other demands met, and now they actually got it, they find themselves riding the tiger.

Either way its a mess, and it's getting messier by the day. Backtracked promised, the possibility of the UK coming apart at the seams, and the economic shockwaves likely to continue for some time.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #166 on: June 26, 2016, 06:36:13 AM »
Maybe, maybe not. The referendum isn't legally binding, and until the government request to leave the EU, things don't change. On top of that, I'm seeing news stories that indicate Scotland and potentially Northern Ireland could refuse to ratify any leave decision. I don't know if that would block things entirely, or just add a lot more paperwork to the process.


Scotland potentially choosing to block it outright would be a very interesting move - after all it's the United Kingdom, and Scotland should be able to throw some hard spanners in the works...

Offline Nachtmahr

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #167 on: June 26, 2016, 07:08:02 AM »
I'm starting to see a lot anti immigrant nastiness showing up in social media stories now. "We voted out, so f**k off back to your own country"

Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.

Apparently it seems to be 3.1 million at this point, and climbing.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #168 on: June 26, 2016, 08:57:00 AM »
.

It seems a number of the other EU counties are indicating a 'good riddance, now get out' attitude towards the UK, so they may have maneuvered themselves into pretty much a no win situation at this point. There's a part of me wonders if the whole Leave side was just a political gamble to get other demands met, and now they actually got it, they find themselves riding the tiger.

I would say that the sentiment is similar to what is fueling the Trump campaign in my side of the world. A gamble, for sure! But it is part of a larger backdrop of general conflict between the working class and the elites.

Quote
Either way its a mess, and it's getting messier by the day. Backtracked promised, the possibility of the UK coming apart at the seams, and the economic shockwaves likely to continue for some time.

Indeed. We are up for some pretty interesting times ahead. It would seem that the End of History thesis  has been discredited!

Offline hamish1024

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #169 on: June 26, 2016, 09:17:06 AM »
I did find some grim humour in the fact that the "2nd Referendum" petition was actually started by a supporter of the Leave side and a campaigner for the English Democrats, who started the petition when they thought their side was going to lose.

Predictably, he's backtracked on his position pretty fast! Seems to be a common theme on the Leave side.

https://www.facebook.com/Oliver.Healey.English.Democrats/posts/1741575492720794

I wasn't going to sign the petition, but if this is really it's origin, it's too funny not to.


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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #170 on: June 26, 2016, 09:24:37 AM »
I saw that myself. Apparently Farage also said that he would be pushing for a second reforendum if the results were close, and Leave lost by say 52/48 or so. Funny he doesn't seem to be making such a big noise about it being 'unfinished business' now.

Offline Lilias

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #171 on: June 26, 2016, 09:57:01 AM »
I saw that myself. Apparently Farage also said that he would be pushing for a second reforendum if the results were close, and Leave lost by say 52/48 or so. Funny he doesn't seem to be making such a big noise about it being 'unfinished business' now.

He's too butthurt because he was left out of the negotiations committee. 'I never get credit for anything!' Well, history will give him all the credit he's due, probably Boris' share too.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #172 on: June 26, 2016, 10:01:42 AM »
Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.
If it reaches 100,000 it will be considered for debate by a committee of MPs. They don't have to pass it on to debate by parliament, far as I can tell (https://petition.parliament.uk/help).

Besides, the petition was started before the referendum, so it was clearly about something that has now been done. Implementing the petition - as it is worded - would be retroactive legislation, and that could run into a lot of legal trouble.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #173 on: June 26, 2016, 10:12:41 AM »
If it reaches 100,000 it will be considered for debate by a committee of MPs. They don't have to pass it on to debate by parliament, far as I can tell (https://petition.parliament.uk/help).

Besides, the petition was started before the referendum, so it was clearly about something that has now been done. Implementing the petition - as it is worded - would be retroactive legislation, and that could run into a lot of legal trouble.

It's already got around three million signatures - even if some of the signers have stated their location in places like the South Shetland Islands (Antarctica) and the Vatican City...  :P

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #174 on: June 26, 2016, 10:38:17 AM »
I doubt this petition will amount to anything in the immediate run. Nope, looks like they'll have to live with this decision. I'm sure in the year 2100 historians will look at this event and say it marks the final stage in the decline of the British on the world stage.