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Author Topic: EU Referendum / BREXIT  (Read 9238 times)

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Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #150 on: June 26, 2016, 05:52:22 AM »
I'm starting to see a lot anti immigrant nastiness showing up in social media stories now. "We voted out, so f**k off back to your own country"

Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.

Aye to that! Cameron is probably wishing he hadn't gambled on a referendum, but actually saying "we won't act on this because it's an unwise road to go down, and too many people are having second thoughts about this stuff now" would be the nail in the coffin for the PM's credibility as far as he/she would be doing any negotiations with other European leaders.

(I could easily see that petition gathering something like ten million signatures in a few weeks time...)  :P

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #151 on: June 26, 2016, 06:11:35 AM »
Maybe, maybe not. The referendum isn't legally binding, and until the government request to leave the EU, things don't change. On top of that, I'm seeing news stories that indicate Scotland and potentially Northern Ireland could refuse to ratify any leave decision. I don't know if that would block things entirely, or just add a lot more paperwork to the process.

It seems a number of the other EU counties are indicating a 'good riddance, now get out' attitude towards the UK, so they may have maneuvered themselves into pretty much a no win situation at this point. There's a part of me wonders if the whole Leave side was just a political gamble to get other demands met, and now they actually got it, they find themselves riding the tiger.

Either way its a mess, and it's getting messier by the day. Backtracked promised, the possibility of the UK coming apart at the seams, and the economic shockwaves likely to continue for some time.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #152 on: June 26, 2016, 06:36:13 AM »
Maybe, maybe not. The referendum isn't legally binding, and until the government request to leave the EU, things don't change. On top of that, I'm seeing news stories that indicate Scotland and potentially Northern Ireland could refuse to ratify any leave decision. I don't know if that would block things entirely, or just add a lot more paperwork to the process.


Scotland potentially choosing to block it outright would be a very interesting move - after all it's the United Kingdom, and Scotland should be able to throw some hard spanners in the works...

Offline Nachtmahr

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2016, 07:08:02 AM »
I'm starting to see a lot anti immigrant nastiness showing up in social media stories now. "We voted out, so f**k off back to your own country"

Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.

Apparently it seems to be 3.1 million at this point, and climbing.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #154 on: June 26, 2016, 08:57:00 AM »
.

It seems a number of the other EU counties are indicating a 'good riddance, now get out' attitude towards the UK, so they may have maneuvered themselves into pretty much a no win situation at this point. There's a part of me wonders if the whole Leave side was just a political gamble to get other demands met, and now they actually got it, they find themselves riding the tiger.

I would say that the sentiment is similar to what is fueling the Trump campaign in my side of the world. A gamble, for sure! But it is part of a larger backdrop of general conflict between the working class and the elites.

Quote
Either way its a mess, and it's getting messier by the day. Backtracked promised, the possibility of the UK coming apart at the seams, and the economic shockwaves likely to continue for some time.

Indeed. We are up for some pretty interesting times ahead. It would seem that the End of History thesis  has been discredited!

Offline hamish1024

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #155 on: June 26, 2016, 09:17:06 AM »
I did find some grim humour in the fact that the "2nd Referendum" petition was actually started by a supporter of the Leave side and a campaigner for the English Democrats, who started the petition when they thought their side was going to lose.

Predictably, he's backtracked on his position pretty fast! Seems to be a common theme on the Leave side.

https://www.facebook.com/Oliver.Healey.English.Democrats/posts/1741575492720794

I wasn't going to sign the petition, but if this is really it's origin, it's too funny not to.


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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #156 on: June 26, 2016, 09:24:37 AM »
I saw that myself. Apparently Farage also said that he would be pushing for a second reforendum if the results were close, and Leave lost by say 52/48 or so. Funny he doesn't seem to be making such a big noise about it being 'unfinished business' now.

Offline Lilias

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #157 on: June 26, 2016, 09:57:01 AM »
I saw that myself. Apparently Farage also said that he would be pushing for a second reforendum if the results were close, and Leave lost by say 52/48 or so. Funny he doesn't seem to be making such a big noise about it being 'unfinished business' now.

He's too butthurt because he was left out of the negotiations committee. 'I never get credit for anything!' Well, history will give him all the credit he's due, probably Boris' share too.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #158 on: June 26, 2016, 10:01:42 AM »
Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.
If it reaches 100,000 it will be considered for debate by a committee of MPs. They don't have to pass it on to debate by parliament, far as I can tell (https://petition.parliament.uk/help).

Besides, the petition was started before the referendum, so it was clearly about something that has now been done. Implementing the petition - as it is worded - would be retroactive legislation, and that could run into a lot of legal trouble.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2016, 10:12:41 AM »
If it reaches 100,000 it will be considered for debate by a committee of MPs. They don't have to pass it on to debate by parliament, far as I can tell (https://petition.parliament.uk/help).

Besides, the petition was started before the referendum, so it was clearly about something that has now been done. Implementing the petition - as it is worded - would be retroactive legislation, and that could run into a lot of legal trouble.

It's already got around three million signatures - even if some of the signers have stated their location in places like the South Shetland Islands (Antarctica) and the Vatican City...  :P

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2016, 10:38:17 AM »
I doubt this petition will amount to anything in the immediate run. Nope, looks like they'll have to live with this decision. I'm sure in the year 2100 historians will look at this event and say it marks the final stage in the decline of the British on the world stage.

Offline Neroon

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2016, 12:04:42 PM »
The only clear thing the referendum tells us is the the British public is split on the EU.  Here are the accurate results, according to the Electoral Commission's statitstics.

The registered electorate for this referendum was 46,500,001 voters 
Leave vote = 17,410,742
Leave vote = 51.853% of the vote of which total votes cast = 33,577,342 or  72.209% of eligible voters
Leave vote = 37.442% of eligible voters
Remain vote = 16,141,241
Remain vote =  48.072% of the vote
Remain vote =  34.712% of eligible voters
Rejected votes = 25,359
Rejected votes = 0.076% of the vote
Rejected votes = 0.054% of eligible voters
Did not vote = 12,922,659
Did not vote = 27.791% of eligible voters

In other words, 62.558% of the UK electorate did not vote to leave the EU.  Unlike a general election, for which the consequences of a vote only last 5 years, the consequences of this vote will last for decades.  The pro-Brexit side started the petition when they thought they were going to lose, so I am under no illusions that we would have heard the end of this had Remain won.  Such has been the way of the small-minded bigots who engineered the campaign (note I am NOT calling those who voted to leave small minded bigots but those who ran the campaign to leave over the last 20 years), to refuse to accept that any view but their own matters and to repeatedly lie and cheat and misrepresent the truth.

The biggest lie in this referendum wasn't the lie about £350,000,000 a week going to the EU from Britain or the lie that if we exited the EU we would end immigration or even the lie that we could walk away from the EU and continue to have excellent trading relations with other nations.  Already the dire forecasts of the consequences of Brexit which are now starting to come true were scaremongering.  It is not scaremongering to tell the people the truth and to warn them of the consequences of stupid choice.

It is lying, however, to suggest that by voting leave we will get Great Britain back.  Great Britain has never been gone, but it will be gone soon.  Even if we somehow stay in the EU, the Scots will never stay in the UK and in all likelihood the Northern Irish won't either.  With the costs of Brexit weighing heavily on the treasury the UK government will not be able to afford the cost of the troops in Northern Ireland that kept that it in the UK during the euphemistically named "troubles".

The only way that someone could see this vote as the best thing that could happen to Britain would be either if that person sought the destruction of the UK as it stands or if they were following Caesar's maxim that "men believe what they will no matter what evidence to the contrary they see."  By leaving the EU, we will be destroying the chances of a prosperous future for ourselves and our children. What have we gained in return?  Another recession, the scorn of the civilised world and the destruction of the union.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:08:42 PM by Neroon »

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2016, 12:12:41 PM »
small-minded bigots who ... refuse to accept that any view but their own matters and to repeatedly lie and cheat and misrepresent the truth.

Alas, this sounds like every politician I know... 


OT:  Actually, I have a question.  What was it that the Leave people were hoping to accomplish by voting to get out of the EU?  Freeing up money to spend on UK only programs?  Not having to comply with EU rules regarding accepting immigrants?  Something else?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:44:19 PM by Cycle »

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2016, 03:26:18 PM »

OT:  Actually, I have a question.  What was it that the Leave people were hoping to accomplish by voting to get out of the EU?  Freeing up money to spend on UK only programs?  Not having to comply with EU rules regarding accepting immigrants?  Something else?

Here's an article which attempts to explain it somewhat: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-why-did-people-vote-leave-immigration-nhs-a7104071.html

Mostly for cultural or nationalistic reasons.

Offline Derwaysh

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #164 on: June 26, 2016, 06:08:27 PM »
OT:  Actually, I have a question.  What was it that the Leave people were hoping to accomplish by voting to get out of the EU?  Freeing up money to spend on UK only programs?  Not having to comply with EU rules regarding accepting immigrants?  Something else?

Here's an article which attempts to explain it somewhat: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-why-did-people-vote-leave-immigration-nhs-a7104071.html

Mostly for cultural or nationalistic reasons.

Freeing up money was huge on their agenda too, but the approaches that would eventually yield said money in the case of UK's successful departure were often disproven to actually work in the end.

Of course now that all is said and done, sirrah Farage asserts it was a mistake on the campaign's part to make that promise, something he would have never done.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #165 on: June 26, 2016, 06:20:40 PM »
Here's an article which attempts to explain it somewhat: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-why-did-people-vote-leave-immigration-nhs-a7104071.html

Mostly for cultural or nationalistic reasons.

This article makes it sound like the Leave voters are mostly poor angry old white men who hate women, minorities, and young people...  Is this right???  O.o 

So they were hoping to accomplish what?  Hurt everyone who isn't them?

Offline Lilias


Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #167 on: June 26, 2016, 07:01:29 PM »
This article makes it sound like the Leave voters are mostly poor angry old white men who hate women, minorities, and young people...  Is this right???  O.o 

So they were hoping to accomplish what?  Hurt everyone who isn't them?

Yep, that pretty much sums it up! There really are some people out there who don't have your best interests at heart, and it looks like they have been emboldened in recent years.


Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #169 on: June 26, 2016, 07:05:29 PM »
Yep, that pretty much sums it up! There really are some people out there who don't have your best interests at heart, and it looks like they have been emboldened in recent years.

Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #170 on: June 26, 2016, 07:27:49 PM »
Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

You personally may not be part of that particular demographic, but it is necessary to understand what exactly that side represents before you jump onboard. Politics is all about power relations after all, not just the economy.

Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #171 on: June 26, 2016, 07:30:35 PM »
I also did understand what I was voting for. I don't agree with all of what was said, but I thought more of leaving than remaining. He ce my vote.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #172 on: June 26, 2016, 07:47:31 PM »
Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

I'm not labeling you as such, and I am questioning the article's suggestion that the majority of the Leave voters fall within that definition.  You say you don't fit that description and I have no reason to disbelieve you. 

So back to my question.  What were the Leave voters, including you, hoping to accomplish?  That is what I am curious about.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #173 on: June 26, 2016, 10:21:06 PM »
Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

On the other hand, Khoraz, you are stood in the middle of a bunch of 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people' and saying "Hey, I voted the same as these guys".  It's not entirely unreasonable of people to assume you are part of that group.  While I can understand that it might be upsetting for you, it's something you're just going to have to suck up.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #174 on: June 26, 2016, 10:43:07 PM »
On the other hand, Khoraz, you are stood in the middle of a bunch of 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people' and saying "Hey, I voted the same as these guys".  It's not entirely unreasonable of people to assume you are part of that group.  While I can understand that it might be upsetting for you, it's something you're just going to have to suck up.

Come on, Kythia - you wouldn't want to be lumped in with all the feudal dross and corrupt politics in large parts of Pakistani society. If someone flung that kind of crap at you in connection with some other topic of discussion you would have every right to say: I'm not "guilty" of what happens in those ranks of a culture I still count as mine.

"You're hanging out with/thinking just like them angry white men", because you...voted for the same ballot as they did? That's an ethnic slur too, at least in some contexts. Even if it can be made to look better than the other way around.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 10:46:31 PM by gaggedLouise »