You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 04, 2016, 12:17:54 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: EU Referendum / BREXIT  (Read 9191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stan'

  • The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!
  • Lord
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Location: Glasgow
  • Gender: Male
  • The Ultimate RP Warrior!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #125 on: June 25, 2016, 01:29:33 PM »
As much as it pains me to say it, no, I wouldn't vote for independence again.  There's a lot of theories doing the rounds at the minute, and one of them seems to be Scotland being able to take Britain's place in the EU.

Nope.  That's not going to happen.  It seems to be mostly young people that voted remain, but I'm in my mid-20s and suddenly I'm painted out to be the bad guy because I wanted to leave.

The top brass of the EU have made it clear that they will make Britain (regardless of what part, whether it is Scotland, England, Wales or N. Ireland) regret voting to leave.  Sure, the majority of Scots and Irish voted to stay in, but that doesn't mean anything to the Europeans.  If Scotland go independent, we'll have as much influence on the European stage as Andorra (no offence to them).  We'll need to adopt the Euro, which will be devastating for the economy, as well as bending over backwards to every rule and regulation that the EU wants to impose to new members.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #126 on: June 25, 2016, 01:31:51 PM »
How many popular referendums in a hot question *ever* got settled with more than sixty percent on one side? Gee, I'd say it's almost normal that the margin turns out to be fairly slim when it's a heavyweight issue. The very dynamics of a direct appeal to the people on a single question seems to drive it that way.

Not quite the same thing, but there are certain measures in the U.S. that have to be decided by a 2/3s majority vote by the Congress.  It's a difficult majority, but it is achievable.

Offline Nachtmahr

  • Glorious Fiend.
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Location: Always out of sight, never out of mind.
  • The curse of life is the curse of want.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #127 on: June 25, 2016, 01:34:24 PM »
I think that's the crux of the argument. I think the EU is just a mess - maybe that's cynical, but yeah... I just didn't see any chance in the EU. Got to try out of it.

And I almost fully agree with you, except I don't think giving up on it is the right thing to do, especially not at this particular point in time. I believe there is hope in the EU, and that's really where we disagree I suppose. :)

Offline TaintedAndDelishTopic starter

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #128 on: June 25, 2016, 02:18:42 PM »

Regarding this bit about wanting to vote again ( and presumably again and again ), I see a few issues. The biggest is that you can't un-ring a bell. They may be able to re-vote and change it's outcome, but that won't do anything about all the consequences of the original vote and it certainly would not change things back to the way they were.







Offline Nachtmahr

  • Glorious Fiend.
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Location: Always out of sight, never out of mind.
  • The curse of life is the curse of want.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #129 on: June 25, 2016, 03:07:06 PM »
See, the thing about this whole "Vote again until the people in charge the result they want"-thing is that this is basically how democracy works nowadays. For all of those thinking that it would be unfair to vote again because then leave might loose.. Well, that's an indication the leaving is not actually what the majority wants after all, so how come you only want to be democratic and go with the majority when it benefits you?

I'm only saying this because of people took to me suggesting that a second vote wouldn't be a bad idea before making the final decision. Democracy is to carry out the will of the people through a majority, and if the majority has switched sides in a month or a year, then leaving is obviously not the right thing to do. People claimed (Or to some extent perhaps insinuated) that I was saying this as a Remain-supporter who just wanted to keep rolling the dice until I got the result I wanted, but that's not true.

Things have already been set in motion and opinions are changing. It was so incredibly close to begin with, and lots of people appear to have come forwards saying they "Didn't Really mean it" (That's a very irresponsible way to vote, by the way, regardless of what side you're supporting.) and of course there's this whole NHS-thing that's cropped out with some blatant lying on the behalf of the Leave-campaign.

Alright then, I accept that I may be biased by my opinion, but so are all of you who are against a second vote. As much as I am for it because "My side" (I'm not a UK citizen, nor do I live there) lost, you're against it because your side won. Neither of us, in this case, actually care about democracy and we just want our way. You simply can't mean to tell me that you care about democracy if you would ignore a potential shift in majority before the UK officially leaves the EU. I don't think my interpretation of democracy and the importance of having a true majority is unjust, and if Remain won a second vote by a similar 1-3% margin I'd be all for giving it a bit more time and having a third vote if need be. On the other hand, if Leave were to win a second vote once more, I will happily accept that it is genuinely how the dedicated majority feels.

I just think this is too big a matter to be settled by a less than 2% majority in a single referendum with obvious lies now being unearthed on the winning side. Uninformed people will have voted for something they were immediately told they weren't actually going to get, and I don't think it's right to just ignore that.

Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #130 on: June 25, 2016, 03:19:48 PM »
For me at least, it's not that I'm worried the leave will loose. If the Remain side had won I wouldn't be gunning for another vote. It's just not democratic - you can't say that certain people's votes are more important than anyone else's, just as I can't say mine is.

The thing is, I highly doubt that a win would be by anything like a 'clear' majority. It's just too much of a divisive issue for there to be a big difference. People have dug their heels in and won't change their minds - if they do it will probably just be 2% the other way, or closer to the middle which wouldn't help at all.

Opinions are changing, but opinions will be changing ever day while things are up in the air the way they are. The pound plummeted yesterday and today it's gone steady _- even going up a little bit. So it's impossible to judge how people are going to feel in the long term with so much mess flying everywhere.

Sorry if I'm not debating well. I'm pretty sleepy and have a cat sat on one of my hands.

Offline Nachtmahr

  • Glorious Fiend.
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2009
  • Location: Always out of sight, never out of mind.
  • The curse of life is the curse of want.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #131 on: June 25, 2016, 05:07:01 PM »
Well, I think I've said everything I needed to say. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. Maybe we'll see another vote, maybe this is the best thing to ever happen, we simply don't know enough yet, and I guess my 24 hours of despair and moaning ordained by Jeremy Clarkson are over.

It was a good debate, but unless something big happens I doubt I can add anymore to it, thus I will probably withdraw for the time being.

In conclusion my stance is that there is a lot wrong with the EU, but I don't believe that leaving and/or ultimately dissolving it is the answer. At least, not yet. And I don't think less than 2% lead is enough to justify going ahead with a change of this magnitude without a follow-up vote or an official national poll of registered voters at some point in the future. (Not tomorrow, but two months or a year, but before the process becomes irreversible.)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 05:09:09 PM by Nachtmahr »

Offline Stan'

  • The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!
  • Lord
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Location: Glasgow
  • Gender: Male
  • The Ultimate RP Warrior!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #132 on: June 25, 2016, 05:23:06 PM »
Forcing another vote will make a mockery of democracy (which itself, is a joke these days anyway).

The reason they want another vote is because they are going about, interviewing thousands of people then when they find three people who go "I voted to leave but I didn't think my vote would count!" they suddenly paint the "leave" voters as incompetent idiots.  I'm just surprised that so many of my intelligent friends believed in the scaremongering from the "remain" side.  British MPs are *far* from the most reliable and trustworthy of people, so why believe what they have to say?  These are the same people that made a mockery of the expense system, and are clearly only interested in what benefits them.

I'm with Khoraz.  If we lost, then I would man up and accept it.  I certainly did when Scotland didn't go independent (and I'm an *extremely* proud and passionate Scot who, when signing up to internet forums, constantly scrolls down hoping to find "Scotland" and reluctantly has to select "United Kingdom" as my country). 

It's playing the waiting game now, really.

Offline AmberStarfire

  • Rogue Starlight ~ Fantasy Novelist ~ This Is Who We Are ~ Scully to his Mulder
  • Dame
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Aug 2008
  • Location: Somewhere that makes me smile
  • Gender: Female
  • ❤ Snuggler of the Wyld and Hairy ❤
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2016, 05:51:25 PM »
British MPs are *far* from the most reliable and trustworthy of people, so why believe what they have to say? 

That's actually a comment I've heard expressed from some of those who did vote for leaving (or at least was reported in the news). They voted leave on the basis that all this additional funding would be put back into the countries infrastructure, like the NHS.

Now the leave politicians are going 'Oops, wasn't actually as much as we were saying in the first place, and we didn't say we WOULD put it back there.', so those who voted leave are feeling very cheated. The financial upheavels, the situation with Scotland, N Ireland and now Gibraltar as well, there seems to be a hell of a lot of buyers remorse, as it were.

http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/belfast-post-office-runs-out-of-irish-passport-application-forms-34833135.html

I found the above story somewhat amusing, but then Norn Iron folk do have a dark sense of humour :)

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #135 on: June 25, 2016, 05:53:40 PM »
Now I'm curious, what are the reversals and backtracking/take-backsies from the Leave-oriented politicians that people are talking about?

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2016, 05:56:40 PM »
This seems to be one of the main ones

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/nigel-farage-350-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-was-a-mistake/

I'll have a quick look, see if I can find links to any of the other stuff.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2016, 06:01:40 PM »
Well that's pretty scummy.

Levity moment:

https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/746262774133702656/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

This is the cake Mr. Farage apparently celebrated his victory with/had prepared for the victory party. Someone please tell me I'm not the only person who doesn't see a 'champagne bottle' as the first thing that design resembles.

Offline Stan'

  • The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!
  • Lord
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Location: Glasgow
  • Gender: Male
  • The Ultimate RP Warrior!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2016, 06:03:29 PM »
Yup, the "leave" parties were also full of lies and exaggerated claims.  Though I've yet to meet or talk to any one who believed that the entire 350m (or whatever the correct figure is) would be put right back in to Britain.  Whenever you vote for a particular party, you always take a lot of it with a pinch of salt.  Britain has always been been the same (the Lib Dems with their Tuition Fees backtrack for example) and I'm sure the likes of America is exactly the same.

I do think that the MPs who voted leave are actually stunned that it happened, and yes, I agree that they probably don't have a concrete plan in place for what happens next.  But the way the vote was portrayed, it was made out as if the moment we voted "exit", the country would implode inside a black hole.  Yes, the markets are down, but there is already signs of recovery.  We're still here.  We're all still alive.  And I think that as soon as the young people stop parading about like hippies, and sit down and realise it's not the end of the world, then in retrospect, it'll go down as the best decision the United Kingdom has made in decades.

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2016, 06:06:19 PM »
That remains to be seen, but no one is going to know the full effects for years, and at least in the short term there is going to be a lot of pain by the looks of things.

Offline Stan'

  • The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!
  • Lord
  • Enchanted
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Location: Glasgow
  • Gender: Male
  • The Ultimate RP Warrior!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2016, 06:09:39 PM »
Yeah, and I think that's why there was such a split.  There was going to be a lot of short term pain, but long term gain.  The uncertainty was how much short term pain there was actually going to be, and we've yet to see it.  One country had to get the ball rolling, but the biggest question now is -- will the United Kingdom even exist by the time the country actually leaves the EU?

Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2016, 06:12:24 PM »
I don't think the Kingdom has been United for a long time. I was surprised that the Scots didn't vote for independence before - pretty sure they will now. Maybe even Northern Island.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2016, 06:26:01 PM »
I'm sure the likes of America is exactly the same.

They are.  Some of the most successful candidates over here are the ones promising all kinds of magical, wonderful things.  Fortunately there were enough of us who saw through one attempt to peddle snake oil to block him.   With luck, we'll have enough people who see through the second before November.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2016, 06:28:51 PM »
Indeed. One side peddling snake oil, the other pounding hard on the drums of fear. Remarkably similar now that you point it out.

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2016, 06:40:02 PM »
Yeah, and I think that's why there was such a split.  There was going to be a lot of short term pain, but long term gain.  The uncertainty was how much short term pain there was actually going to be, and we've yet to see it.  One country had to get the ball rolling, but the biggest question now is -- will the United Kingdom even exist by the time the country actually leaves the EU?

The amount of long term gain also remains to be seen. I think there's a fair chance this could lead to Scotland splitting off, which means any prior economic forecasts will be voided. Northern Ireland brings another set of issues as with Ireland still in the EU you have a long border there to secure, so good luck with that one. The spectre of renewed violence has also been raised as a possibility for the future. Spain is talking joint sovereignty for Gibraltar. Given that over 95% of the population there voted remain, that isn't going to be cut and dried either.

There may be long term gain. I don't know enough to do more than make guesses based on news stories I've read. But if there are gains, there are going to be losses as well, short and long term, I would say.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #145 on: June 25, 2016, 07:09:26 PM »

The top brass of the EU have made it clear that they will make Britain (regardless of what part, whether it is Scotland, England, Wales or N. Ireland) regret voting to leave.  Sure, the majority of Scots and Irish voted to stay in, but that doesn't mean anything to the Europeans.  If Scotland go independent, we'll have as much influence on the European stage as Andorra (no offence to them).  We'll need to adopt the Euro, which will be devastating for the economy, as well as bending over backwards to every rule and regulation that the EU wants to impose to new members.

Well, in all fairness, compared to what Britain was a century ago, I am going to go out on a limb and say that this is probably going to happen whether or not they decided to remain in the EU.

Honestly though, I think the overall impact of Brexit is going to prove relatively minor. Sure, some investors will lose money somewhere, and possibly the UK may decide to break apart if the Scottish really are that sore over it, but I don't see this impacting me personally in a big way, or at all.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #146 on: June 25, 2016, 10:01:37 PM »
Quick update, it looks like the EU is actually welcoming the idea more than was originally thought: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/uk-faces-brexit-crisis

Kinda reminds me of a bad breakup as a matter of fact.

Offline eyeshield22

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #147 on: June 26, 2016, 01:09:05 AM »
An interesting quirk in the entire process is a report from the house of lords on the entire "Brexit" process  is the fact that Scotland and the rest of the devolved nations in the UK are going to need to give consent too the entire process via the Scotland Act of 1998. It isn't a veto over the process per say, but it does add an extra layer of complexity on the situation in addition to the economic issues. Depending on whoever the new prime minister happens to be they will have to negotiate a rather thorny situation.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201516/ldselect/ldeucom/138/138.pdf house of lord's report specifically section 70 and 71

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/06/15/brexit-devolution-and-legislative-consent-what-if-the-devolution-statutes-were-left-unchanged-after-brexit/

https://constitution-unit.com/2016/06/13/removing-references-to-eu-law-from-the-devolution-legislation-would-invoke-the-sewel-convention/

blog by a London law professor who extrapolates on the legal side of the problems that Brexit will have to answer and the pitfalls those answers might enjoin.

Offline TaintedAndDelishTopic starter

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #148 on: June 26, 2016, 01:40:02 AM »

Offline HairyHeretic

  • Lei varai barbu - The true bearded one
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Location: Ireland
  • Gender: Male
  • And the Scorpion said "Little frog .. I can swim."
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #149 on: June 26, 2016, 05:11:51 AM »
I'm starting to see a lot anti immigrant nastiness showing up in social media stories now. "We voted out, so f**k off back to your own country"

Additionally, the petition for a second vote is now over 2.5 million . IIRC once a petition reaches 100k it has to be debated in Parliment, so it will be interesting to see what happens there as the fallout from this continues to grow.