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The Elliquian Herald & Post
Issue 74 ~ April thru July 2017

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Author Topic: EU Referendum / BREXIT  (Read 15007 times)

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Offline Neroon

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #175 on: June 26, 2016, 12:04:42 PM »
The only clear thing the referendum tells us is the the British public is split on the EU.  Here are the accurate results, according to the Electoral Commission's statitstics.

The registered electorate for this referendum was 46,500,001 voters 
Leave vote = 17,410,742
Leave vote = 51.853% of the vote of which total votes cast = 33,577,342 or  72.209% of eligible voters
Leave vote = 37.442% of eligible voters
Remain vote = 16,141,241
Remain vote =  48.072% of the vote
Remain vote =  34.712% of eligible voters
Rejected votes = 25,359
Rejected votes = 0.076% of the vote
Rejected votes = 0.054% of eligible voters
Did not vote = 12,922,659
Did not vote = 27.791% of eligible voters

In other words, 62.558% of the UK electorate did not vote to leave the EU.  Unlike a general election, for which the consequences of a vote only last 5 years, the consequences of this vote will last for decades.  The pro-Brexit side started the petition when they thought they were going to lose, so I am under no illusions that we would have heard the end of this had Remain won.  Such has been the way of the small-minded bigots who engineered the campaign (note I am NOT calling those who voted to leave small minded bigots but those who ran the campaign to leave over the last 20 years), to refuse to accept that any view but their own matters and to repeatedly lie and cheat and misrepresent the truth.

The biggest lie in this referendum wasn't the lie about £350,000,000 a week going to the EU from Britain or the lie that if we exited the EU we would end immigration or even the lie that we could walk away from the EU and continue to have excellent trading relations with other nations.  Already the dire forecasts of the consequences of Brexit which are now starting to come true were scaremongering.  It is not scaremongering to tell the people the truth and to warn them of the consequences of stupid choice.

It is lying, however, to suggest that by voting leave we will get Great Britain back.  Great Britain has never been gone, but it will be gone soon.  Even if we somehow stay in the EU, the Scots will never stay in the UK and in all likelihood the Northern Irish won't either.  With the costs of Brexit weighing heavily on the treasury the UK government will not be able to afford the cost of the troops in Northern Ireland that kept that it in the UK during the euphemistically named "troubles".

The only way that someone could see this vote as the best thing that could happen to Britain would be either if that person sought the destruction of the UK as it stands or if they were following Caesar's maxim that "men believe what they will no matter what evidence to the contrary they see."  By leaving the EU, we will be destroying the chances of a prosperous future for ourselves and our children. What have we gained in return?  Another recession, the scorn of the civilised world and the destruction of the union.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:08:42 PM by Neroon »

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #176 on: June 26, 2016, 12:12:41 PM »
small-minded bigots who ... refuse to accept that any view but their own matters and to repeatedly lie and cheat and misrepresent the truth.

Alas, this sounds like every politician I know... 


OT:  Actually, I have a question.  What was it that the Leave people were hoping to accomplish by voting to get out of the EU?  Freeing up money to spend on UK only programs?  Not having to comply with EU rules regarding accepting immigrants?  Something else?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 12:44:19 PM by Cycle »

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #177 on: June 26, 2016, 03:26:18 PM »

OT:  Actually, I have a question.  What was it that the Leave people were hoping to accomplish by voting to get out of the EU?  Freeing up money to spend on UK only programs?  Not having to comply with EU rules regarding accepting immigrants?  Something else?

Here's an article which attempts to explain it somewhat: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-why-did-people-vote-leave-immigration-nhs-a7104071.html

Mostly for cultural or nationalistic reasons.

Offline Derwaysh

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #178 on: June 26, 2016, 06:08:27 PM »
OT:  Actually, I have a question.  What was it that the Leave people were hoping to accomplish by voting to get out of the EU?  Freeing up money to spend on UK only programs?  Not having to comply with EU rules regarding accepting immigrants?  Something else?

Here's an article which attempts to explain it somewhat: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-why-did-people-vote-leave-immigration-nhs-a7104071.html

Mostly for cultural or nationalistic reasons.

Freeing up money was huge on their agenda too, but the approaches that would eventually yield said money in the case of UK's successful departure were often disproven to actually work in the end.

Of course now that all is said and done, sirrah Farage asserts it was a mistake on the campaign's part to make that promise, something he would have never done.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #179 on: June 26, 2016, 06:20:40 PM »
Here's an article which attempts to explain it somewhat: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-eu-referendum-why-did-people-vote-leave-immigration-nhs-a7104071.html

Mostly for cultural or nationalistic reasons.

This article makes it sound like the Leave voters are mostly poor angry old white men who hate women, minorities, and young people...  Is this right???  O.o 

So they were hoping to accomplish what?  Hurt everyone who isn't them?

Offline Lilias

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Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #181 on: June 26, 2016, 07:01:29 PM »
This article makes it sound like the Leave voters are mostly poor angry old white men who hate women, minorities, and young people...  Is this right???  O.o 

So they were hoping to accomplish what?  Hurt everyone who isn't them?

Yep, that pretty much sums it up! There really are some people out there who don't have your best interests at heart, and it looks like they have been emboldened in recent years.


Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #183 on: June 26, 2016, 07:05:29 PM »
Yep, that pretty much sums it up! There really are some people out there who don't have your best interests at heart, and it looks like they have been emboldened in recent years.

Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #184 on: June 26, 2016, 07:27:49 PM »
Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

You personally may not be part of that particular demographic, but it is necessary to understand what exactly that side represents before you jump onboard. Politics is all about power relations after all, not just the economy.

Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #185 on: June 26, 2016, 07:30:35 PM »
I also did understand what I was voting for. I don't agree with all of what was said, but I thought more of leaving than remaining. He ce my vote.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #186 on: June 26, 2016, 07:47:31 PM »
Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

I'm not labeling you as such, and I am questioning the article's suggestion that the majority of the Leave voters fall within that definition.  You say you don't fit that description and I have no reason to disbelieve you. 

So back to my question.  What were the Leave voters, including you, hoping to accomplish?  That is what I am curious about.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #187 on: June 26, 2016, 10:21:06 PM »
Just to say, I voted leave and I'm not a 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people'. It's getting both annoying and upsetting to be constantly labelled all these things.

On the other hand, Khoraz, you are stood in the middle of a bunch of 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people' and saying "Hey, I voted the same as these guys".  It's not entirely unreasonable of people to assume you are part of that group.  While I can understand that it might be upsetting for you, it's something you're just going to have to suck up.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #188 on: June 26, 2016, 10:43:07 PM »
On the other hand, Khoraz, you are stood in the middle of a bunch of 'poor angry old white man who hate women, minorities, and young people' and saying "Hey, I voted the same as these guys".  It's not entirely unreasonable of people to assume you are part of that group.  While I can understand that it might be upsetting for you, it's something you're just going to have to suck up.

Come on, Kythia - you wouldn't want to be lumped in with all the feudal dross and corrupt politics in large parts of Pakistani society. If someone flung that kind of crap at you in connection with some other topic of discussion you would have every right to say: I'm not "guilty" of what happens in those ranks of a culture I still count as mine.

"You're hanging out with/thinking just like them angry white men", because you...voted for the same ballot as they did? That's an ethnic slur too, at least in some contexts. Even if it can be made to look better than the other way around.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 10:46:31 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #189 on: June 26, 2016, 11:04:34 PM »
Come on, Kythia - you wouldn't want to be lumped in with all the feudal dross and corrupt politics in large parts of Pakistani society. If someone flung that kind of crap at you in connection with some other topic of discussion you would have every right to say: I'm not "guilty" of what happens in those ranks of a culture I still count as mine.

But that's not what I'm saying, is it.  I'm not denying Khoraz his right to try to distance himself from that element, I am simply saying that it's not unreasonable that he has to do so.  It's not unreasonable for people to assume I'm Muslim.  I'm not, as you know, but it's not reasonable for me to get upset about others making a pretty sensible assumption.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #190 on: June 26, 2016, 11:21:33 PM »
But that's not what I'm saying, is it.  I'm not denying Khoraz his right to try to distance himself from that element, I am simply saying that it's not unreasonable that he has to do so.  It's not unreasonable for people to assume I'm Muslim.  I'm not, as you know, but it's not reasonable for me to get upset about others making a pretty sensible assumption.

Just because Khoraz voted for a Brexit doesn't mean anyone has the (moral) right to claim: yeah, he did so for the same reasons as Nigel Farage and some of the cartoon angry grandpa types you would associate with the UKIP inner circle.

I've long been of the opinion that the French ban on the burqa in public makes sense, that doesn't mean I have to show everyone and his brother, again and again, that I am not an admirer of Jean-Marie le Pen (or his daughter). My reasons for supporting it are completely different from tne muddy anti-Muslim talk of the FN, besides they were not the ones who initiated that law.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 11:23:03 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #191 on: June 26, 2016, 11:30:04 PM »
Just because Khoraz voted for a Brexit doesn't mean anyone has the (moral) right to claim: yeah, he did so for the same reasons as Nigel Farage and some of the cartoon angry grandpa types you would associate with the UKIP inner circle.

I've long been of the opinion that the French ban on the burqa in public makes sense, that doesn't mean I have to show everyone and his brother, again and again, that I am not an admirer of Jean-Marie le Pen (or his daughter). My reasons for supporting it are completely different from tne muddy anti-Muslim talk of the FN, besides they were not the ones who initiated that law.

I think we might just straight up disagree here, Louise.  If I see someone wearing a normal t-shirt but sat with thirty people in Newcastle tops at a bar frequented by Newcastle fans and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope Newcastle win today" then I'm going to assume that they are a Newcastle fan.  I'll believe them if they say otherwise, but I don't think my assumption was unwarranted.

Similarly, if I see someone of unknown racistness joining a group characterised by racism at a time when they have the opportunity to express that racism and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope these racists win" then I'm going to assume they're a bigot.  Again, believe them if they're not but not an unfair thing to think. 

Being associated with the Brexit campaign massively raises the a priori chances you are a bigot.  You can't reasonably object to people noticing that fact and raising it.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #192 on: June 26, 2016, 11:51:44 PM »
Yes, I would (amicably) disagree with that position. People can have all sorts of reasons for deciding they have had enough of the EU as it exists now, that they think it's damaging to their country or to the lives of many people they know. Good or bad reasons, decent, logical or ridiculous reasons. I agree with you that a Brexit would be very damaging (especially if it is managed by the likes of Boris Johnson) but it doesn't mean everyone who voted for it is in some sense like Boris and Nigel or the most racist and bigoted of their fans.

A political party or a campaign isn't simply like a hardline football supporter club (and unless I've missed something, he didn't say he had actually been a serious activist for the Brexit campaign). Maybe it is that tight sometimes on a very local level in some places, but not overall. We're entitled to our own reasons.

Maybe I am irritated by this because I'm so sick of hearing quick-fix arguments in the vein of "you're either 100% for us and anything we say or you're against us, and then you're a racist/misogynist/ whatever".  >:(

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #193 on: June 26, 2016, 11:55:19 PM »
Oh yes, he's absolutely entitled to his own reasons.  And as I say, I'd believe someone if they said that those weren't their reasons (all else being equal).  But none of that makes the initial assumption inherently unreasonable.

I can understand your irritation with the black and white nature of some arguments, but that's not the one I'm making.

Offline Oniya

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #194 on: June 27, 2016, 12:09:13 AM »
Also, please remember that you are talking to/about an individual person here, and not some vague, undefined 'someone'.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #195 on: June 27, 2016, 12:14:23 AM »
Also, please remember that you are talking to/about an individual person here, and not some vague, undefined 'someone'.

Oh yes, he's absolutely entitled to his own reasons.  And as I say, I'd believe someone if they said that those weren't their reasons (all else being equal).  But none of that makes the initial assumption inherently unreasonable.

I can understand your irritation with the black and white nature of some arguments, but that's not the one I'm making.

I think we might just straight up disagree here, Louise.  If I see someone wearing a normal t-shirt but sat with thirty people in Newcastle tops at a bar frequented by Newcastle fans and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope Newcastle win today" then I'm going to assume that they are a Newcastle fan.  I'll believe them if they say otherwise, but I don't think my assumption was unwarranted.

Similarly, if I see someone of unknown racistness joining a group characterised by racism at a time when they have the opportunity to express that racism and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope these racists win" then I'm going to assume they're a bigot.  Again, believe them if they're not but not an unfair thing to think. 

Being associated with the Brexit campaign massively raises the a priori chances you are a bigot.  You can't reasonably object to people noticing that fact and raising it.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #196 on: June 27, 2016, 12:25:18 AM »
Also, please remember that you are talking to/about an individual person here, and not some vague, undefined 'someone'.

*nods* As an aside, one reason that I pushed this line of argument is because I happen to know that Khoraz has been through some unenviably tough times in the past, perhaps more recently too. From talking to him in the past, and from some forum postings.

But it's about principle for me, as well. I really don't like arbitrary guilt by association of that kind, it's a cheap kind of trick.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:27:04 AM by gaggedLouise »

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #197 on: June 27, 2016, 12:32:56 AM »
It is indeed.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #198 on: June 27, 2016, 12:33:29 AM »
For my part, as I hinted at above, the conversation very much is about a vague undefined someone.  That's why I used 'someone'.  Sure, Khoraz has been used as an example but both Louise and I have used me as an example and Louise used herself as an example.  It's very much not about Khoraz per se.

Offline Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #199 on: June 27, 2016, 02:40:59 AM »
I think the main reason I'm being used as an example is because very few people who voted leave seem prepared to discuss it, because of the automatic assumptions that people leap to. I know that whenever I hear family or friends talking about it, I just keep my mouth shut because I don't want to have that conversation.

From what I've seen of the Remain side through all this, I could say that they're all over-privileged teenagers who enjoy being offended and look for ways to seem smug and superior and informed. But I don't. A lot of my friends voted remain, and I know that that's not true - you can't just judge everyone because of a few vocal idiots.

Still,  waaaay back Cycle asked what I hoped to accomplish as a leave voter and ill try to answer.

Basically in my opinion, I've been watching Europe steadily decline for years; I can't stand Merkel (sp?) and I think it's wrong that Germany effectively holds the pursestrings for 27/8 countries - which it did.

For me there are a few main issues and I might as well start with the obvious one which is immigration. There's a lot of statistics that say the UK takes in only 3% of the world's migrants,  but we're such a tiny country, that makes much more of an impact that you'd expect. When there are so many homeless people, people struggling to make ends meet every day, already here... it doesn't seem right or sensical that we keep opening our arms to other people who will also be struggling. I'm not immune to the suffering that's going on... but the world isn't fair or nice. Before we can help anyone, surely we need to be in a state where all the people already here are okay? Hence my desire to curb the numbers.

Then there's the NHS. I blame the conservative government just as much as Europe for this one, but both have taken money that the health service desperately needs and pumped it into less important areas. I can't remember where I read it, but the UK was NATO's largest contributer - that isn't right when we're struggling with domestic issues, why on earth are we giving so much money away?

Essentially I saw a sinking ship headed in a direction that made me worried for the future - and I chose to try and leap from it. I can understand people being terrified of such a massive change, it's only natural, but for people to be shouting about how it's all going to  rumble and how doomed we are is just... its silly. The crash of the pound has already settled and gone up a little bit. Some company profits have risen again in the wake of the panic.

If anything we should be more worried about the political mess this has left. Boris Johnson or Theresa May as PM scares the crap out of me, but I'll put up with it until I can try and vote them out come election day.

I hope it explained myself at least a littlw bit - it's 8.30 in the morning and I just woke up to see this flood of posts,  so I wanted to defend my position.

I'm not a racist, old or uneducated. The very fact that those statistics are being shoved out is insulting because it has no baring on the result - are the newspaper's trying to say that uneducated people's votes should be worth less? That's not how democracy works, and it's wrong to talk down to anyone because of how they use their vote.

Edit: I realised I'd missed another thing. That is, I don't like being told what to do, by a group of people that I don't know about - there is no transparency in the EU in regard to how they debate issues, which I think is an inherently bad thing. If we think there's too many secrets flying around Westminster (which there are) there are a hundred more in the EU. Everyone should be able to awe how the people speaking for them debate and argue... The fact that the EU has been very secretive doesn't sit well with me.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 03:53:52 AM by Khoraz »