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Author Topic: EU Referendum / BREXIT  (Read 9432 times)

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Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #175 on: June 26, 2016, 11:04:34 PM »
Come on, Kythia - you wouldn't want to be lumped in with all the feudal dross and corrupt politics in large parts of Pakistani society. If someone flung that kind of crap at you in connection with some other topic of discussion you would have every right to say: I'm not "guilty" of what happens in those ranks of a culture I still count as mine.

But that's not what I'm saying, is it.  I'm not denying Khoraz his right to try to distance himself from that element, I am simply saying that it's not unreasonable that he has to do so.  It's not unreasonable for people to assume I'm Muslim.  I'm not, as you know, but it's not reasonable for me to get upset about others making a pretty sensible assumption.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #176 on: June 26, 2016, 11:21:33 PM »
But that's not what I'm saying, is it.  I'm not denying Khoraz his right to try to distance himself from that element, I am simply saying that it's not unreasonable that he has to do so.  It's not unreasonable for people to assume I'm Muslim.  I'm not, as you know, but it's not reasonable for me to get upset about others making a pretty sensible assumption.

Just because Khoraz voted for a Brexit doesn't mean anyone has the (moral) right to claim: yeah, he did so for the same reasons as Nigel Farage and some of the cartoon angry grandpa types you would associate with the UKIP inner circle.

I've long been of the opinion that the French ban on the burqa in public makes sense, that doesn't mean I have to show everyone and his brother, again and again, that I am not an admirer of Jean-Marie le Pen (or his daughter). My reasons for supporting it are completely different from tne muddy anti-Muslim talk of the FN, besides they were not the ones who initiated that law.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 11:23:03 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #177 on: June 26, 2016, 11:30:04 PM »
Just because Khoraz voted for a Brexit doesn't mean anyone has the (moral) right to claim: yeah, he did so for the same reasons as Nigel Farage and some of the cartoon angry grandpa types you would associate with the UKIP inner circle.

I've long been of the opinion that the French ban on the burqa in public makes sense, that doesn't mean I have to show everyone and his brother, again and again, that I am not an admirer of Jean-Marie le Pen (or his daughter). My reasons for supporting it are completely different from tne muddy anti-Muslim talk of the FN, besides they were not the ones who initiated that law.

I think we might just straight up disagree here, Louise.  If I see someone wearing a normal t-shirt but sat with thirty people in Newcastle tops at a bar frequented by Newcastle fans and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope Newcastle win today" then I'm going to assume that they are a Newcastle fan.  I'll believe them if they say otherwise, but I don't think my assumption was unwarranted.

Similarly, if I see someone of unknown racistness joining a group characterised by racism at a time when they have the opportunity to express that racism and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope these racists win" then I'm going to assume they're a bigot.  Again, believe them if they're not but not an unfair thing to think. 

Being associated with the Brexit campaign massively raises the a priori chances you are a bigot.  You can't reasonably object to people noticing that fact and raising it.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #178 on: June 26, 2016, 11:51:44 PM »
Yes, I would (amicably) disagree with that position. People can have all sorts of reasons for deciding they have had enough of the EU as it exists now, that they think it's damaging to their country or to the lives of many people they know. Good or bad reasons, decent, logical or ridiculous reasons. I agree with you that a Brexit would be very damaging (especially if it is managed by the likes of Boris Johnson) but it doesn't mean everyone who voted for it is in some sense like Boris and Nigel or the most racist and bigoted of their fans.

A political party or a campaign isn't simply like a hardline football supporter club (and unless I've missed something, he didn't say he had actually been a serious activist for the Brexit campaign). Maybe it is that tight sometimes on a very local level in some places, but not overall. We're entitled to our own reasons.

Maybe I am irritated by this because I'm so sick of hearing quick-fix arguments in the vein of "you're either 100% for us and anything we say or you're against us, and then you're a racist/misogynist/ whatever".  >:(

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #179 on: June 26, 2016, 11:55:19 PM »
Oh yes, he's absolutely entitled to his own reasons.  And as I say, I'd believe someone if they said that those weren't their reasons (all else being equal).  But none of that makes the initial assumption inherently unreasonable.

I can understand your irritation with the black and white nature of some arguments, but that's not the one I'm making.

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #180 on: June 27, 2016, 12:09:13 AM »
Also, please remember that you are talking to/about an individual person here, and not some vague, undefined 'someone'.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #181 on: June 27, 2016, 12:14:23 AM »
Also, please remember that you are talking to/about an individual person here, and not some vague, undefined 'someone'.

Oh yes, he's absolutely entitled to his own reasons.  And as I say, I'd believe someone if they said that those weren't their reasons (all else being equal).  But none of that makes the initial assumption inherently unreasonable.

I can understand your irritation with the black and white nature of some arguments, but that's not the one I'm making.

I think we might just straight up disagree here, Louise.  If I see someone wearing a normal t-shirt but sat with thirty people in Newcastle tops at a bar frequented by Newcastle fans and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope Newcastle win today" then I'm going to assume that they are a Newcastle fan.  I'll believe them if they say otherwise, but I don't think my assumption was unwarranted.

Similarly, if I see someone of unknown racistness joining a group characterised by racism at a time when they have the opportunity to express that racism and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope these racists win" then I'm going to assume they're a bigot.  Again, believe them if they're not but not an unfair thing to think. 

Being associated with the Brexit campaign massively raises the a priori chances you are a bigot.  You can't reasonably object to people noticing that fact and raising it.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #182 on: June 27, 2016, 12:25:18 AM »
Also, please remember that you are talking to/about an individual person here, and not some vague, undefined 'someone'.

*nods* As an aside, one reason that I pushed this line of argument is because I happen to know that Khoraz has been through some unenviably tough times in the past, perhaps more recently too. From talking to him in the past, and from some forum postings.

But it's about principle for me, as well. I really don't like arbitrary guilt by association of that kind, it's a cheap kind of trick.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:27:04 AM by gaggedLouise »

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #183 on: June 27, 2016, 12:32:56 AM »
It is indeed.

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #184 on: June 27, 2016, 12:33:29 AM »
For my part, as I hinted at above, the conversation very much is about a vague undefined someone.  That's why I used 'someone'.  Sure, Khoraz has been used as an example but both Louise and I have used me as an example and Louise used herself as an example.  It's very much not about Khoraz per se.

Online Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #185 on: June 27, 2016, 02:40:59 AM »
I think the main reason I'm being used as an example is because very few people who voted leave seem prepared to discuss it, because of the automatic assumptions that people leap to. I know that whenever I hear family or friends talking about it, I just keep my mouth shut because I don't want to have that conversation.

From what I've seen of the Remain side through all this, I could say that they're all over-privileged teenagers who enjoy being offended and look for ways to seem smug and superior and informed. But I don't. A lot of my friends voted remain, and I know that that's not true - you can't just judge everyone because of a few vocal idiots.

Still,  waaaay back Cycle asked what I hoped to accomplish as a leave voter and ill try to answer.

Basically in my opinion, I've been watching Europe steadily decline for years; I can't stand Merkel (sp?) and I think it's wrong that Germany effectively holds the pursestrings for 27/8 countries - which it did.

For me there are a few main issues and I might as well start with the obvious one which is immigration. There's a lot of statistics that say the UK takes in only 3% of the world's migrants,  but we're such a tiny country, that makes much more of an impact that you'd expect. When there are so many homeless people, people struggling to make ends meet every day, already here... it doesn't seem right or sensical that we keep opening our arms to other people who will also be struggling. I'm not immune to the suffering that's going on... but the world isn't fair or nice. Before we can help anyone, surely we need to be in a state where all the people already here are okay? Hence my desire to curb the numbers.

Then there's the NHS. I blame the conservative government just as much as Europe for this one, but both have taken money that the health service desperately needs and pumped it into less important areas. I can't remember where I read it, but the UK was NATO's largest contributer - that isn't right when we're struggling with domestic issues, why on earth are we giving so much money away?

Essentially I saw a sinking ship headed in a direction that made me worried for the future - and I chose to try and leap from it. I can understand people being terrified of such a massive change, it's only natural, but for people to be shouting about how it's all going to  rumble and how doomed we are is just... its silly. The crash of the pound has already settled and gone up a little bit. Some company profits have risen again in the wake of the panic.

If anything we should be more worried about the political mess this has left. Boris Johnson or Theresa May as PM scares the crap out of me, but I'll put up with it until I can try and vote them out come election day.

I hope it explained myself at least a littlw bit - it's 8.30 in the morning and I just woke up to see this flood of posts,  so I wanted to defend my position.

I'm not a racist, old or uneducated. The very fact that those statistics are being shoved out is insulting because it has no baring on the result - are the newspaper's trying to say that uneducated people's votes should be worth less? That's not how democracy works, and it's wrong to talk down to anyone because of how they use their vote.

Edit: I realised I'd missed another thing. That is, I don't like being told what to do, by a group of people that I don't know about - there is no transparency in the EU in regard to how they debate issues, which I think is an inherently bad thing. If we think there's too many secrets flying around Westminster (which there are) there are a hundred more in the EU. Everyone should be able to awe how the people speaking for them debate and argue... The fact that the EU has been very secretive doesn't sit well with me.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 03:53:52 AM by Khoraz »

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #186 on: June 27, 2016, 06:20:01 AM »
Trading in RBS and Barclays was briefly suspended this morning to try to prevent a total collapse. Ouch.

Offline Cycle

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #187 on: June 27, 2016, 10:05:22 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to respond, Khoraz.

Offline hamish1024

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #188 on: June 27, 2016, 10:22:44 AM »
OK, I do respect that someone has actually posted some pro-Leave defenses. And I do acknowledge that bickering after the fact is probably not going to help now. But I still have to take issue with some of the things being said there, sorry. Put it down to me being a terrible person, if you like.

Before we can help anyone, surely we need to be in a state where all the people already here are okay? Hence my desire to curb the numbers.

So at some point in the future, you envisage Britain being able to announce "Yup, literally everyone on this island is doing okay! Let's go help some foreigners now!"? The real reason that not everyone is okay is nothing to do with immigration, it's to do with inequality in our economic model and underinvestment in social welfare. Both of which will get worse now. (Please consider that Victorian Britain didn't need *any* immigrants around to make life a shitty living hell for the white working class).

I can't remember where I read it, but the UK was NATO's largest contributer - that isn't right when we're struggling with domestic issues, why on earth are we giving so much money away?

Well, obviously not, the USA will be far and away the biggest NATO contributor, I'm guessing the UK and France will be second and third due to their UN security council seats. I'd never expected to see a Leave argument which classed "having an army" as "giving money away". I'm actually with you on the scope to reduce the UK's military budget, with one caveat - this has no place in an anti EU argument as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

I'm not a racist, old or uneducated. The very fact that those statistics are being shoved out is insulting because it has no baring on the result

Not everything that you don't like the tone of should be taken as a personal insult. Those statistics do have a bearing on *understanding* the result. Especially in the absence of coherent arguments on what leaving the EU will actually achieve, or how it will address the problems that the Leave group have cited (i.e. immigration. Leaving the EU will not stop, or even help to stop, immigration. I can't stress that enough).   

The fact that the EU has been very secretive doesn't sit well with me.

*Is* it secretive though? I completely agree that most people don't know about its inner workings, myself included, but I always put that down to it simply being as boring as fuck. No conspiracy there, surely?

The EU is being used as a scapegoat for problems that are simply nothing to do with it.

Online Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2016, 10:35:26 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to respond, Khoraz.
No problem~

OK, I do respect that someone has actually posted some pro-Leave defenses. And I do acknowledge that bickering after the fact is probably not going to help now. But I still have to take issue with some of the things being said there, sorry. Put it down to me being a terrible person, if you like.

So at some point in the future, you envisage Britain being able to announce "Yup, literally everyone on this island is doing okay! Let's go help some foreigners now!"? The real reason that not everyone is okay is nothing to do with immigration, it's to do with inequality in our economic model and underinvestment in social welfare. Both of which will get worse now. (Please consider that Victorian Britain didn't need *any* immigrants around to make life a shitty living hell for the white working class).

Well, obviously not, the USA will be far and away the biggest NATO contributor, I'm guessing the UK and France will be second and third due to their UN security council seats. I'd never expected to see a Leave argument which classed "having an army" as "giving money away". I'm actually with you on the scope to reduce the UK's military budget, with one caveat - this has no place in an anti EU argument as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

Not everything that you don't like the tone of should be taken as a personal insult. Those statistics do have a bearing on *understanding* the result. Especially in the absence of coherent arguments on what leaving the EU will actually achieve, or how it will address the problems that the Leave group have cited (i.e. immigration. Leaving the EU will not stop, or even help to stop, immigration. I can't stress that enough).   

*Is* it secretive though? I completely agree that most people don't know about its inner workings, myself included, but I always put that down to it simply being as boring as fuck. No conspiracy there, surely?

The EU is being used as a scapegoat for problems that are simply nothing to do with it.
I don't know how to break up quotes so I'll do my best here.
  • No I don't expect a sudden idealised version of Britain to come out of this - it just feels like common sense to prioritise what problems we already have before welcoming in more. I know that the class system is utter BS and has nothing to do with immigration,  but I don't think you can say that the ever-increasing population has nothing to do with the quality of life going down either. And again, I know that isn't down to immigration, but it plays a role for sure.
  • Okay, second-highest, sorry. Somehow I forgot about America. Still, I think the fact that you never expected a Leaver to think we're putting too much money into the army is an example of the sweeping generalisation going on. It has got to do with Europe because of how much money/troops we've been pumping into it in the form of aid. I'm not saying that it's entirely the EU, but like I said above - it plays a massive role in things from what I've seen.
  • I haven't taken everything as a personal insult. There's just been some... unpleasant tones in this thread that weren't so great, but I'm pretty happy to debate and stuff. Hence this reply. I think leaving the EU will impact on immigration; if you think about free-movement, combined with the fact that countries like Turkey, Syria, and others are top candidates for joining the EU... that leaves the door open for a lot more people to move around, and not all of them would be refugees. I like the idea of being able to draw our own line on things, rather than someone else drawing it for us.
  • It is pretty damn secretive. I've certainly struggled to find much information from Brussels about the meetings that go on - I don't think it's a conspiracy, there's just a lack of transparency that I have a problem with. If you're governing 28 countries then they need to be able to hear what you're talking about
  • The EU has been making its own bed for a long time... though I blame Merkel for that. She's out of touch and I believe that opinion polls in Germany have shown her going out of favour. It's not a scapegoat - it's a big contributor to a lot of issues, at least that's how I see it.
Phew. Think that's everything?

Offline Kythia

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2016, 11:21:09 AM »
No problem~
I don't know how to break up quotes so I'll do my best here.

When you click quote you get the header across the top, this one looks like:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=Khoraz link=topic=250347.msg12451043#msg12451043 date=1467041726]
for example.  That's the start of each code block.  Then use:

Code: [Select]
[/quote]
at the end.  Putting them together:

Code: [Select]
[quote author=Khoraz link=topic=250347.msg12451043#msg12451043 date=1467041726]
Blah blah blah
[/quote]

looks like

Blah blah blah

Anyway, just quickly.

Okay, second-highest, sorry. Somehow I forgot about America. Still, I think the fact that you never expected a Leaver to think we're putting too much money into the army is an example of the sweeping generalisation going on. It has got to do with Europe because of how much money/troops we've been pumping into it in the form of aid. I'm not saying that it's entirely the EU, but like I said above - it plays a massive role in things from what I've seen.

No.  NATO is nothing to do with the EU.  We're still in NATO (well, we're still in the EU but you get what I mean).  Our commitments to NATO have not changed in any way.  Hamish is right, this is utterly unrelated.  Could I ask what you've seen?  Do you have any links or sources or facts or anything?

...fact that countries like Turkey, Syria, and others are top candidates for joining the EU...

No, again this is totally untrue.  Turkey applied in 1987 and still hasn't, hardly a top priority.  Syria has never applied, never expressed an interest, never been invited, never...never anything.  It may be that this is the first time that has even been suggested.  Again, sources?

It is pretty damn secretive. I've certainly struggled to find much information from Brussels about the meetings that go on - I don't think it's a conspiracy, there's just a lack of transparency that I have a problem with. If you're governing 28 countries then they need to be able to hear what you're talking about

Have you tried their website?  That's where I get mine from.  As a general rule, when looking for information about an organisation their website is often the first place I look.  Let me know what you're having problems locating and I'll link it for you.

I'm kinda with Hamish on the "is this worth it" line of arguing about this post facto but on the other hand I don't see any benefit to not correcting misconceptions.  After going to and fro for a bit...well, see above.

Online Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #191 on: June 27, 2016, 11:41:59 AM »
My sources tend to be seeing it on the news.

In the build up to the referendum there was a programme on the BBC that tried to be an impartial advice-giver; that's one of the main things that I remember. There was Turkey, Syria and 3 other countries that have applied for membership, and Turkey by itself has been in the news loads about its desire to join the EU, and Cameron has been saying for ages that he supports said membership. Granted that means little now, but still.

With regard to NATO it is relevant because the EU has a target amount of funding to put into it - the UK has consistently met this obligation (which I think is too much) whereas many other EU states have not. Why is that okay? It doesn't seem fair to me that ohrr countries are expected to take up the slack. Not to say that I think NATO is great, but there's very uneven spending going on.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/nato-calls-for-rise-in-defence-spending-by-alliance-members-1434978193
The source goes on and on about other things, but yeah. Not good.

Also this might be a bit paranoid of me, but I never go to the website of whatever it is I'm researching - there's going to be obvious bias and it makes it difficult to find anything impartial. But that's true with everything.



I don't know if it's worth it either - like I've said before people really dig their heels in and it takes a lot to change ge their minds. I think I'm right and you think you're right - that's how debates work. ^^;

Offline Trevino

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #192 on: June 27, 2016, 01:37:52 PM »
I think we might just straight up disagree here, Louise.  If I see someone wearing a normal t-shirt but sat with thirty people in Newcastle tops at a bar frequented by Newcastle fans and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope Newcastle win today" then I'm going to assume that they are a Newcastle fan.  I'll believe them if they say otherwise, but I don't think my assumption was unwarranted.

Similarly, if I see someone of unknown racistness joining a group characterised by racism at a time when they have the opportunity to express that racism and saying things like "Boy, I sure hope these racists win" then I'm going to assume they're a bigot.  Again, believe them if they're not but not an unfair thing to think. 

Being associated with the Brexit campaign massively raises the a priori chances you are a bigot.  You can't reasonably object to people noticing that fact and raising it.

I agree with this!

It is particularly telling that racism is coming out in the open following the referendum. To give another example: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html

Not to mention the reaction of Trump and his elk back in the States.

I'll have to say, recent events have led me to rethink Britain's relationship with the EU,  that there was just more to staying with the EU than just economics, even though I'm not in Europe!

Online Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #193 on: June 27, 2016, 01:43:54 PM »
All the racist stuff going on does need to be stopped. I'm thinking that once the politics settle down those assholes will be put in check. No good.

Offline Stan'

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #194 on: June 27, 2016, 01:44:11 PM »
And of course, the whole 'Turkey takes in all these refugees' deal was no doubt done in a way for Turkey to get on good terms with the EU, as well as the Schengen visa-free deal on the horizon.  This sounds like them wanting to join the EU to me.

This debate is starting to go the way of the discussions on people's facebook.  I honestly think this thread is starting to get dangerously close to personal attacks and groundless assumptions.

Online Khoraz

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #195 on: June 27, 2016, 01:47:40 PM »
It's just a hot topic of discussion. Impossible not to get a bit worked up over it, you know?

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #196 on: June 27, 2016, 01:49:50 PM »
It is, but the way I'm reading this thread, those who are defending the 'leave' result are being implied to be racist bigots unless we actually come out and say we're not.

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Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #197 on: June 27, 2016, 02:17:12 PM »
I will clearly state that I know many people who voted leave and not one of them is a racist.  Voting leave did not make someone a racist but then pointing out that racists are trying to use the vote for their own ends.  I never make assumptions about someone's character for the company they keep but instead I look at their actions or inactions.  When people are persecuted, it is not  enough to stand by wringing one's hands, one must stand up for what is right.  Those non-racists I know who voted for Brexit did that and I respect them for it.  They were wrong, but I respect that they acted with their consciences.  The reasons they made the wrong choice is because they were misinformed.

The truly sad thing about the vote, though, is the way that the UK population were lied to and by both sides. However, the fact remains that the remain side was fundamentally more honest than the leave side.  We are already starting to see the justified warnings of the remain side coming true and the empty promises of the leave side being broken. 

Why did people vote for Brexit?  Simple, Project Lie was more convincing then Project Fear. 

The trouble is, Project Lie is still at it.  The act of parliament that set up the referendum stated that the referendum was non-binding.  Yet it is repeated over and over that the Prime Minister, either Cameron now or whoever emerges as leader after a Tory leadership battle, will have to invoke Article 50 of the EU referendum.  Yet this too is a lie.  Firstly the only valid conclusion one can take from last week's vote is that the UK population is split on Europe.  Britain may have spoken but pretty much what it said was "er...".  Secondly, the wording of the Brexit referendum's act was very specific and did not make any reference to the decision of the referendum having to be taken by parliament.  For a referendum to be binding it has to be specifically stated in that referendum's associated act that the referendum result must be followed.  Without that, the only way Britain can legally leave the EU is if the House of Commons passes an act to leave the EU since the preamble to Article 50 states,  “Any member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.”  And that's ignoring the fact that sections 29 and 57(2) of the 1998 Scotland Act grants the Sottish parliament a veto.

Now an obscure part of the Maastricht Treaty could allow the Brexiteers to get round this, as it does allow for members having referenda to leave the EU. However, it states that a referendum regarding departure from the EU would require a 75% turnout and a 65% mandate.  The referendum we just had neither meets the criteria in terms of turn out nor does its result.  It might be that the pro-Brexit group want to ignore this as "another case where Europe is telling us what to do" but I suspect the reasons are less honourable. They are hoping that inertia will carry people through and that we will sleepwalk away from the EU.

It is time for Boris, Gove and Farrage to stop lying us their lies and the only way to ensure this is to make sure the truth is known.

Offline Polymorph

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #198 on: June 27, 2016, 02:31:45 PM »
I voted LEAVE. I would vote that way again without a shadow of doubt if need be.

That said, Kythia I believe to be perfectly correct that the EU's own website is an excellent source of easily accessible information. It took me less than 30 seconds to source and copy and paste this.

The countries currently negotiating or preparing for negotiations

Turkey was recognised as a candidate country at the December 1999 Helsinki European Council. The EU launched accession negotiations with Turkey at the General Affairs Council in Luxembourg on 3 October 2005.

The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia received the status of candidate country by the European Council in December 2005. In October 2009, the Commission further recommended launching negotiations with the country. This has, however, not yet been agreed by the Council.

Montenegro applied in 2008 and was granted candidate country status at the December 2010 European Council. Negotiations will however be launched only upon satisfactory compliance with a set of policy conditions.

Albania applied for EU Membership in 2009 and was granted candidate country status at the June 2014 European Council.

Iceland applied on 16 July 2009. The European Council granted Iceland candidate status in June 2010 and negotiations were formerly opened in July 2010. In mid-2013, the new government decided to put negotiations on hold.

Serbia applied in 2009 and was granted candidate country status at the May 2012 European Council.


Offline Polymorph

Re: EU Referendum / BREXIT
« Reply #199 on: June 27, 2016, 02:38:43 PM »
Turkey quite frankly has in the 11 years since it applied failed completely to make headway on reaching the criteria for joining. There was never any chance of Turkey joining in the foreseeable future. Politicians certainly said they hoped Turkey might one day join, but the prospect was more wishful thinking than realistic.