What's in the news?

[gaggedLouise]

So Economic Crimes are now a thing in China I wonder how long until they will openly start charging people with Thought Crimes?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-bars-us-citizens-from-leaving-over-economic-crimes/ar-BBQ6uhe?ocid=spartandhp

Well, they already did implement it once... ^_ ^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_reform_in_China

[Tolvo]

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3438202/women-hating-incel-trolls-organise-viral-campaign-to-report-sex-workers-and-cam-girls-for-dodging-taxes/

Oh yeah don't know if people already saw but shitty people are trying to report sex workers to the IRS and get them in trouble. I saw it early on though I actually didn't know that the rapist Roosh was involved too though it isn't surprising.

[RedRose]

The pictures are incredible. I suppose a TW is in order for some blood and a sicko who brought his kid to the riot. Politicians are talking of "war scenes" caused by the red or brown plague - words I didn't hear for quite some time. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6424117/Paris-riot-police-blast-water-cannon-demonstrators-protesting-Macrons-fuel-tax-rise.html

[Tolvo]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gm-slash-over-14-000-jobs-north-american-workforce-n940091?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

General Motors is closing down factories and getting rid of thousands of jobs.

[Yvellakitsune]

I know this is just depressing. Especially since while the USA did just commit illegal war crimes against children

"War crime".  Exactly what are you referring to?

[Tolvo]

Border Agents fired tear gas across the border which landed around many families which had children with them. Which is a war crime as tear gas is considered a chemical weapon that is banned, though you can use it on your own citizens when you use it outside of your border on people who are not your own citizens it is recognized as a war crime. Though likely the people who did it won't be prosecuted and the USA has Bush era laws to protect members of US Law Enforcement from being prosecuted in international courts.

[Sara Nilsson]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46350307

Alabama police say a black man mistaken for an active shooter during a mall shooting had "heightened the sense of threat" by drawing his own firearm after shots rang out.

Emantic Fitzgerald Bradford Jr, 21, had "brandished a gun" as police responded to Thursday's incident at the shopping centre near Birmingham, they said.

but but.. good guy with a gun!! Oh wait, black good guy with a gun. Carry on. nothing to see here, just another black man shot and killed by cops who at first had the gall to claim he was the shooter and then backing on that.

ffs. So tired of it all. And I know nothing will change, people will still cry "good guy with a gun would have stopped it" as more black good guys with guns are gunned down. And I say this as a gun owner myself. Before someone cries that I am anti gun.

[Sara Nilsson]

Border Agents fired tear gas across the border which landed around many families which had children with them. Which is a war crime as tear gas is considered a chemical weapon that is banned, though you can use it on your own citizens when you use it outside of your border on people who are not your own citizens it is recognized as a war crime. Though likely the people who did it won't be prosecuted and the USA has Bush era laws to protect members of US Law Enforcement from being prosecuted in international courts.

its ok. Pepper spray is safe. /s

https://www.theroot.com/fox-friends-guest-claims-pepper-spray-is-so-safe-you-1830654492

“To clarify, the type of deterrent being used is O.C. pepper spray,” Colburn told host Steve Doocy. “It’s literally water, pepper, with a small amount of alcohol for evaporation purposes. It’s natural. You could actually put it on your nachos and eat it. So it’s a good way of deterring people without longterm harm.”

[Tolvo]

Oh don't worry I was joking about that with others minutes after that happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=EDm15yVx-Fs

I'd love to see him eat nachos covered in it. Thankfully so many things are safe because they're natural. Ghost peppers. Hemlock. Anthrax. You can clearly put that in someone's eyes and they'll be fine. /s

[Yvellakitsune]

Border Agents fired tear gas across the border which landed around many families which had children with them. Which is a war crime as tear gas is considered a chemical weapon that is banned, though you can use it on your own citizens when you use it outside of your border on people who are not your own citizens it is recognized as a war crime. Though likely the people who did it won't be prosecuted and the USA has Bush era laws to protect members of US Law Enforcement from being prosecuted in international courts.

Tear gas is banned as a "means of warfare." 
This is not warfare.  It is not an invasion I am sure you would agree.  It is not an effort by two opposing armies in a war.  The US Border Patrol is not a military force, it is a law enforcement agency.  The people the tear gas was used on were engaged in a riot and attempting to use force to breach police lines and an international border. 

There is no specification on using it on foreigners or citizens, its "means of warfare" or "peaceful use" distinction. 

Chemical agents are allowed to be used for "peaceful uses."  For example, herbicides are illegal as a means of war, but not farming.  Riot control is considered a "peaceful use." I understand you may not personally agree with that, but legally it is. That is the legal reason why it can be used by law enforcement and even the military for riot control, but not in war.   

So, this doesn't look like a war crime legally.

There may be an issue because of the border aspect of it, but not a war crime issue.   But even a Vox article I saw on the incident specifically stated that US and Mexican law enforcement agencies are working together.  https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/26/18112474/tear-gas-border-patrol-caravan-rocks  The Vox article from what I see is incorrect that tear gas is illegal to use internationally, the specific illegal use is for warfare.

Here is an analysis piece on it in regards to Ferguson, Missouri. https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/xwpkj7/yes-tear-gas-being-used-in-ferguson-is-banned-in-warfare-but-not-in-war-zones  It talks about the "means of warfare" versus "peaceful uses."

I'm trying to find a paper I saw on how both sides are using the Law of Warfare to expand or limit its jurisdiction based on how modern and unconventional warfare is unfolding.  That appears to be happening with this.

This is an unusual circumstance with the border though, but it doesn't look like a war crime.  You could argue that it is something that should be illegal, but it doesn't currently look illegal.   

[Tolvo]

It is debatable whether or not they were a riot, but in either case it was still not domestic use which is the legal exception. Both articles mention the domestic use and I have read the original writing which also states domestic use is the legal exception.

[Yvellakitsune]

It was a crowd control situation and law enforcement on both sides of the border were in coordination.  But this still is not use of chemical agents as a “means of war.”  It is still a peaceful use. 

As for the riot, what do you call breaking through a police line then?  I’m not claiming the entire caravan was in a riot, but an element attempted to force their way past police to cross a border.  Either way, it is still law enforcement and a “peaceful use.”

[Tolvo]

And this is still clearly not domestic, and I'd not call people seeking asylum and being forcibly prevented from doing so rioters. Especially the families including children who were not trying to push through and who were across the border and were tear gassed.

[Icelandic]

And this is still clearly not domestic, and I'd not call people seeking asylum and being forcibly prevented from doing so rioters. Especially the families including children who were not trying to push through and who were across the border and were tear gassed.

No one is forcing asylum seekers from gaining asylum. The process has been slow, but this is a large caravan at a single checkpoint. Of course the process is going to get clogged up due to the sheer amount of people waiting.

We are also working with Mexico on figuring out how to resolve the issue faster, with Mexico also agreeing to offer the migrants asylum.

[Oniya]

I actually know some people who built up enough capsaicin tolerance that over-the-counter pepper spray no longer affected them.  This included military, law enforcement, and simple hot sauce aficionados.  I've also read about people who had such a severe anaphylactic reaction to capsaicin that a bit of Tabasco sent them to the hospital because their throat closed up.

[Tolvo]

I mean I like to eat spicy food but I don't know that I'd ever quite want to build up such a level of tolerance for that haha.

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-public-backs-plans-for-legal-recognition-of-non-binary-third-gender/

Also hell yeah Scotland.

[Skynet]

No one is forcing asylum seekers from gaining asylum. The process has been slow, but this is a large caravan at a single checkpoint. Of course the process is going to get clogged up due to the sheer amount of people waiting.

We are also working with Mexico on figuring out how to resolve the issue faster, with Mexico also agreeing to offer the migrants asylum.

The Trump Administration tried to very recently, but a federal judge struck it down.

[Icelandic]

The Trump Administration tried to very recently, but a federal judge struck it down.

So there ya go. They can even cross the border illegally and still gain asylum.

[Oniya]

I mean I like to eat spicy food but I don't know that I'd ever quite want to build up such a level of tolerance for that haha.

The hot-sauce guy was something else - Dave's Insanity Sauce was 'okay, but more heat than actual flavor.'  That casual.

[Tolvo]

I feel that way about a lot of things, that they're going for heat over flavor when I like a nice balance. Though maybe that'd go better in a food discussion thread. Do we have one of those?

[Skynet]

So there ya go. They can even cross the border illegally and still gain asylum.

That isn't what you intended by your last message; given your earlier comments in PROC defending President Trump revoking a reporter's White House Press credentials, you have a habit of downplaying the actions of his administration.

The ordering of US troops to the border, along with the President's previous comments denigrating Latinos*, as well as the fears of paramilitary militias wanting to go to the border to turn back immigrants at gunpoint,** along with this last incident in the news give the message and actions that American conservatives are doing everything in their power to keep out Latinos from entering the USA. Trump's Muslim travel ban was temporarily blocked, but later upheld.*** So it's not necessarily a permanent solution

*https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/21/trump-says-fans-are-very-passionate-after-hearing-one-of-them-allegedly-assaulted-hispanic-man/?utm_term=.008baad10b1b

**https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/10/31/deployed-border-troops-are-preparing-for-militias-stealing-their-gear-protester-violence-documents-show/

***https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban

[Tolvo]

https://thinkprogress.org/twitter-removes-far-right-account-calling-for-breakup-of-america-and-world-war-b16fd639497d/

Ironically Jesse Kelly's desire matches a lot with accelerationist views, I've actually run into certain communist revolutionaries that actually want a similar thing to happen so things will get so bad people will be forced to take part in a revolution to save themselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/26/revealed-matthew-whitaker-anti-abortion-policies?CMP=share_btn_tw

Also it looks like the person who replaced Jeff Sessions might be even worse.

[Icelandic]

That isn't what you intended by your last message

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. The military is there to keep people from crossing illegally, and I'm definitely not concerned with milita members somehow stealing supplies from the United States military. That is not to say that the US does not have it's own domestic threats, but I don't see how that fact shows that it's unreasonably difficult for the asylum seekers to apply for asylum.

given your earlier comments in PROC defending President Trump revoking a reporter's White House Press credentials, you have a habit of downplaying the actions of his administration.

I dunno how revoking a reporter's press credentials to the White House has anything to do with the conversation either.

But funny enough, I'm not even a supporter of Trump. I can name a number of things I disagree with, but I think the media overall is taking their feud with Trump far too personally. They are not used to people in power so blatantly calling them out, and that hurts their ego, which in turn causes them to put too much emotional stock in opposing Trump, when that's not necessarily their job.

But again, I don't know what that has to do with anything about asylum seekers either.

[Skynet]

I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. The military is there to keep people from crossing illegally, and I'm definitely not concerned with milita members somehow stealing supplies from the United States military. That is not to say that the US does not have it's own domestic threats, but I don't see how that fact shows that it's unreasonably difficult for the asylum seekers to apply for asylum.

The military is strong, but by no means invincible. The sheer size of the US-Mexico border means that ranks being spread thing are plausible occurrences. If the Viet Cong can repel the US Army, and al-Qaeda can shelter bin Laden for years in spite of the CIA's best efforts, small-scale domestic sabotage is not out of the question.

The US military treats them, organized crime, and protestors gone wrong as legitimate threats; otherwise they wouldn't brief soldiers on it. Again you're downplaying the bad actions of people on the right.

I dunno how revoking a reporter's press credentials to the White House has anything to do with the conversation either.

But funny enough, I'm not even a supporter of Trump. I can name a number of things I disagree with, but I think the media overall is taking their feud with Trump far too personally. They are not used to people in power so blatantly calling them out, and that hurts their ego, which in turn causes them to put too much emotional stock in opposing Trump, when that's not necessarily their job.

But again, I don't know what that has to do with anything about asylum seekers either.

Even Fox News disagreed with the revoking of press credentials, and the man in question wasn't doing anything disruptive beyond asking legitimate questions. Vekseid and others had good responses to this.

If you're not a Trump supporter, then there's no good reason to defend his revoking of press credentials, nor does it behoove one's credibility on future topics involving the President and his supporters, thus my reason for bringing it up in the context of you brushing off questionable actions by the man.

[Tolvo]

So I just saw trending Baroness Trumpington and thought to myself "Oh great did John Oliver come up with some new name for Trump everyone is spreading?"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1050754/baroness-trumpington-dies-jean-barker-house-of-lords-tributes

I didn't know it was actually the name of a pretty cool lady who sadly has passed.