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Author Topic: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?  (Read 12891 times)

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Offline Sabre

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #450 on: January 14, 2015, 02:36:29 PM »
The Middle East was using slaves faaaaaar before the West. In fact, the Muslim Barbary Corsairs were raiding European coasts for slaves long before Europe went over and started taking their own.

Slavery was prominent in Western Europe long before the rise of Islam.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #451 on: January 14, 2015, 02:38:26 PM »
Referring to them as "Muslim only zones" is a flat out anti-Islamic propaganda lie.

If you examine the demographics of these zones, and the fact that the indigenous ethnicity is fleeing these areas (as has been documented by white flight in major cities like London and Brussels), it's clear that the same phenomenon that DarkAngel111 is describing in Muslim-majority countries is occurring the West as well - with one culture voluntarily or involuntarily usurping the native cultures of certain areas.

Offline Life in Color

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #452 on: January 14, 2015, 02:39:06 PM »
I'm gonna bow out of the discussion here; I have essays to write and an early morning three hour lecture tomorrow, so I don't have the time to write the long posts that I like to write, haha. I'm gonna go back to silently lurking...at least until I figure out how to "Unwatch" a thread. Seriously, I still get threads that I haven't posted on in months popping up in my "Unread Replies" list. It's slightly frustrating. Heh.

Anywho! Bowing out, for now at least...toodlepip, and you all have a nice evening :-) Or morning. Or lunchtime. Or whatever timezone you're in. See ya! :D

Word.

I'm going to step out, too. I need to go throw hundreds of dollars at the money scheme that is textbooks.

Salaam.

Offline Vergil Tanner

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #453 on: January 14, 2015, 02:42:38 PM »
Just a quick addendum:

Yep, Sabre, you're right, which is why I used "Middle East" instead of "Islam." ;) Also, the second part of that quote bit is accurate; Europeans were mostly using European slaves before they went over to Africa. :P Except the Romans. They enslaved everybody who weren't Roman. XD


Anyway! Bowing out for real now. See ya! :D

Online DarkAngel111

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #454 on: January 14, 2015, 02:48:07 PM »
it is 2 am here, But even as I see through this thread, I see a lot of your arguments falling back on you Vergil. Slavery is one example.

As for the rest, I will reply when I come to from my sleep.

Salaam to all.

Online Avis habilis

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #455 on: January 14, 2015, 02:50:58 PM »
If you examine the demographics of these zones, and the fact that the indigenous ethnicity is fleeing these areas (as has been documented by white flight in major cities like London and Brussels), it's clear that the same phenomenon that DarkAngel111 is describing in Muslim-majority countries is occurring the West as well - with one culture voluntarily or involuntarily usurping the native cultures of certain areas.

None of which makes describing them as "officially designated no go zones for anyone who isn't Muslim" any less dishonest.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #456 on: January 14, 2015, 02:57:45 PM »
None of which makes describing them as "officially designated no go zones for anyone who isn't Muslim" any less dishonest.

Sorry, I wasn't insinuating that there was some type of legal prohibition to enter these areas.  It's "no go" in a cultural sense of places to avoid (which in the official sense, have been designated as places which need urban development - or ZUS) - areas which used to be decent places to live and raise a family, which now have dissolved into areas to avoid due to urban decay and white flight.  It just so happens that many of these areas are also hot beds for fundamentalism - but there is nothing legally preventing a non-Muslim from walking these areas, if that is what you assumed I was referring to.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #457 on: January 14, 2015, 03:40:48 PM »
Not legally, no, you're right.  Egypt is a signatory to various conventions and in a strictly legal understanding of the term "rights" then you're correct, sure.  I have no idea what if anything the ramifications of that fact are/will be.  That does raise other issues of course - which parts of the world do you imagine have the power to force cultural values in to international law?  But, interesting as that is, its a side issue.

If you're not talking about legal definitions, though, then we return to this just being a statement.  This is true because it is.  And the situation is clearly not obvious from inspection as shown by the fact that entire regions of the world have examined the same facts and come to a different conclusion.  They might be wrong, sure, but the situation doesn't have an immediately obvious answer is my point.

And so, if freedom of religion is "right " on an objective level then places that disagree need convincing.   And there's bucket loads of research (links if you want them, shout up) saying that the way misconceptions are addressed isn't shouting "I'm right" over and over again, its engaging with and dispelling the misconceptions.  Which means its essential to engage with the specific cultural milieu which disagrees.

If, however, freedom of religion isn't "right" on an objective level then a good way of discovering that fact would be engaging with people/regions/cultures that disagree.

You're right, but note that the point of my post wasn't coming up with ways of convincing the population of Egypt that religious freedom should exist... I'm just trying to learn what the majority of Muslims think of an issue that is really important to me... and to most of people in the West, I suppose. So, I really don't understand why, in reaction to this question, I mostly get the "Why is religious freedom actually important?" counter-question?

I admit I'm allergic to such questions, as I fear that they often to lead to moral relativism and excusing the things happening in Muslim countries as "different cultural values, we have to accept it". The thing is... no, we don't have to accept it. I'm totally for cultural diversity, but some things are just wrong. And I refuse to accept that people getting jailed (or killed) for not wanting to be Muslims anymore is, somehow, a situation of uncertain moral value. Sorry, punishing people for their beliefs (as long as these beliefs don't include hurting other people) is objectively wrong. I just won't debate that.

So, my question is: is punishing apostates something inherent and inseparable from Islam? Also, is the majority of Muslims supporting it? I really would like to see that answered, instead of *me* having to explain the obvious issue of why the religious freedom is a good thing.

I mean... it's as if I asked "What do modern Germans think of the Holocaust?" and only got the replies in the vein "But why do you think that the Holocaust was a bad thing? Explain yourself...".
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 03:42:17 PM by Beorning »

Offline Kythia

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #458 on: January 14, 2015, 03:46:32 PM »
You're right, but note that the point of my post wasn't coming up with ways of convincing the population of Egypt that religious freedom should exist... I'm just trying to learn what the majority of Muslims think of an issue that is really important to me... and to most of people in the West, I suppose. So, I really don't understand why, in reaction to this question, I mostly get the "Why is religious freedom actually important?" counter-question?

I admit I'm allergic to such questions, as I fear that they often to lead to moral relativism and excusing the things happening in Muslim countries as "different cultural values, we have to accept it". The thing is... no, we don't have to accept it. I'm totally for cultural diversity, but some things are just wrong. And I refuse to accept that people getting jailed (or killed) for not wanting to be Muslims anymore is, somehow, a situation of uncertain moral value. Sorry, punishing people for their beliefs (as long as these beliefs don't include hurting other people) is objectively wrong. I just won't debate that.

So, my question is: is punishing apostates something inherent and inseparable from Islam? Also, is the majority of Muslims supporting it? I really would like to see that answered, instead of *me* having to explain the obvious issue of why the religious freedom is a good thing.

I mean... it's as if I asked "What do modern Germans think of the Holocaust?" and only got the replies in the vein "But why do you think that the Holocaust was a bad thing? Explain yourself...".

Well, the question I responded to (linkie) was:

I didn't know about that, but still... punishing someone for admitting to being an atheist is just wrong, isn't it?

So, no.  It would be like saying "I think the holocaust was wrong, isn't it?" and getting the reply "why do you think that?"  If the issue is so obvious, why did you ask if it was obvious or not?

Sure, if you misstated then I apologise.  But your question wasn't addressed to Muslims (or solely to Muslims) and was specifically asking if such actions were wrong.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #459 on: January 14, 2015, 04:01:41 PM »
Well, the question I responded to (linkie) was:

So, no.  It would be like saying "I think the holocaust was wrong, isn't it?" and getting the reply "why do you think that?"  If the issue is so obvious, why did you ask if it was obvious or not?

Sure, if you misstated then I apologise.  But your question wasn't addressed to Muslims (or solely to Muslims) and was specifically asking if such actions were wrong.

Well... there is such a thing a *rherorical* question.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #460 on: January 14, 2015, 04:10:18 PM »
Well... there is such a thing a *rherorical* question.

There is.  And if that was how you meant it then sorry.  You can see, though, that that wasn't immediately obvious from your phrasing?

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #461 on: January 14, 2015, 04:25:02 PM »
I guess it was less obvious than I thought it was...

Offline Vekseid

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #462 on: January 14, 2015, 04:47:57 PM »
It's a Western concept, though.

You cannot apply the same kind of thinking to a region where that thinking isn't applied.

Yes we can. Even if being public about your beliefs was western concept - which it is not (India embraced such centuries before the West did). These laws exist solely to subjugate non-Muslim populations. Muslims are certainly free to make their statements in such regions, and go about their lives making statements regarding Muhammad, Islamic law, and the ilk.

Not much different than Catholic-dominated Europe (it's not like Muslims tolerated pagans, either, but nor did Christians go about slaughtering pagans more than Muslims did). It did not fail because the Papal See magically became enlightened, it failed because people finally rose up and threw off that nonsense.

We can and certainly do judge certain practices of other cultures as not only inferior, but abhorrent, barbaric, and worthy of annihilation. To quote Napier:

Quote
"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."


We hold our freedom of expression very dear, here in the United States.

Believe it or not there is no other country in which I could legally, safely run this forum.

None. Not in Canada, not in Sweden, not in Japan.

I've looked. The Netherlands and New Zealand come the closest.

But for some reason, the legal protection afforded to sites like this in the US is felt in these countries. So sites like this exist elsewhere despite, technically, being illegal.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #463 on: January 14, 2015, 09:17:03 PM »
Tell me then, Is suddenly Being a Muslim has become a Crime in this world?. Because from the way I see it, it really has become a crime to even tell people I am Muslim.

I wouldn't argue with that. This is so often the case in the modern world, with a great deal of prejudice both from individual people and from global powers directed towards muslims.

However in regards to the previous discussion as to why freedom of religion should exist as a universal value. As you have observed that this causes you suffering, surely it requires nothing more than an appeal to basic empathy and fairness that this a wrong thing to do to others.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #464 on: January 15, 2015, 12:48:57 PM »
Something I just read on the news: apparently, French government wanted to have a "one minute of silence" event in French schools to commemorate the victims of last week's attacks. But trouble appeared: some Muslim students refused to participate in it, claiming that the attacks were justified.

This is deeply troubling  :-(

BTW. I'm really not hunting for anti-Muslim news or anything... I'm simply sharing what I stumble upon. For me, it would be easier to believe that all those fears people have about Islam were unfounded... I'm naturally inclined to believe that people can love each other and live together regardless of the cultural differences. But then, I happen into such news and... I don't know anymore...

Online Silk

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #465 on: January 15, 2015, 01:01:32 PM »
Given the scale of the riots and protests a few weeks back during the last cartoonists got shot because of pictures of Muhammad, I'm not surprised to find some people still hold similar sentiments. But it only serves to do nothing but reinforce some peoples beliefs that you don't need to be a terrorist to support the terrorists. In this case it just gives more legitimacy to their "cause" from other Muslims and hardly helps matters.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #466 on: January 15, 2015, 01:15:32 PM »
Something I just read on the news: apparently, French government wanted to have a "one minute of silence" event in French schools to commemorate the victims of last week's attacks. But trouble appeared: some Muslim students refused to participate in it, claiming that the attacks were justified.

This is deeply troubling  :-(

BTW. I'm really not hunting for anti-Muslim news or anything... I'm simply sharing what I stumble upon. For me, it would be easier to believe that all those fears people have about Islam were unfounded... I'm naturally inclined to believe that people can love each other and live together regardless of the cultural differences. But then, I happen into such news and... I don't know anymore...

You should link to your sources then when you find this stuff, so we can evaluate them and use that to help you figure out if it's true, technically true but slanted, or outright lies. If it's just something you got reTweeted or Facebooked, it's probably nonsense.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #467 on: January 15, 2015, 01:22:44 PM »
You should link to your sources then when you find this stuff, so we can evaluate them and use that to help you figure out if it's true, technically true but slanted, or outright lies. If it's just something you got reTweeted or Facebooked, it's probably nonsense.

Actually, I found the news on a major Polish news website. The website is tied to a big liberal daily, so it's most probably not some kind of nonsense. Unfortunately, I can't find any English-language version of the article...

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #468 on: January 15, 2015, 01:23:48 PM »
You should link to your sources then when you find this stuff, so we can evaluate them and use that to help you figure out if it's true, technically true but slanted, or outright lies. If it's just something you got reTweeted or Facebooked, it's probably nonsense.

From what I just searched, it seems true.  Apparently over 80% of students in one school claimed that the Charlie Hebdo staff "deserved what they got."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/they-are-not-charlie/2015/01/13/7c9d6998-9aae-11e4-86a3-1b56f64925f6_story.html
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/14/french-muslim-students-yell-allahu-akbar-dishonor-moment-of-silence-for-charlie-hebdo-victims/

Offline consortium11

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #469 on: January 15, 2015, 03:54:46 PM »
You should link to your sources then when you find this stuff, so we can evaluate them and use that to help you figure out if it's true, technically true but slanted, or outright lies. If it's just something you got reTweeted or Facebooked, it's probably nonsense.

While it's obviously best to include links with the original posts it took typing "refuse minutes silence France" into google and about a minute to find the original source on the story.

One could also go to the Independent which carried that story (along with others) combined with an interview with young Muslims.

Or a video which briefly mentions how the minutes silence wasn't respected in certain schools:


Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #470 on: January 15, 2015, 04:08:00 PM »
While it's obviously best to include links with the original posts it took typing "refuse minutes silence France" into google and about a minute to find the original source on the story.


Hence why I suggested he provide the links if possible. Not for us to verify if they exist, but to verify for him if they are trustworthy or not.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #471 on: January 15, 2015, 07:13:23 PM »
So basically the image of Allah and Muhammed is above the sanctity of human life in Islam? These students wouldnt' have come up with this by themselves after all, their parents or their mosques must have taught them these values.

Offline Skynet

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #472 on: January 16, 2015, 12:59:06 PM »
From what I just searched, it seems true.  Apparently over 80% of students in one school claimed that the Charlie Hebdo staff "deserved what they got."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/they-are-not-charlie/2015/01/13/7c9d6998-9aae-11e4-86a3-1b56f64925f6_story.html
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/14/french-muslim-students-yell-allahu-akbar-dishonor-moment-of-silence-for-charlie-hebdo-victims/

Breitbart's a notoriously unreliable "news" source.  They're not above falsifying things to pass off as factual.  And let's not forget that one of their writers (Milo Yiannopoulos) is encouraging and aiding the harassment of women in the gaming industry via the GamerGate movement.

It might be true, but consider that the Washington Post says that many French Muslims are "deeply torn" and mentioning that only some of them were disrespectful and that others condemned the killings even if they viewed Charlie Hebdo as blasphemous; whereas Breitbart portrays them all as terrorist sympathizers.  Even if they cover the same story, these 2 pieces paint a very different impression of Muslims.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 01:03:20 PM by Skynet »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #473 on: January 16, 2015, 01:07:12 PM »
Breitbart's a notoriously unreliable "news" source.  They're not above falsifying things to pass off as factual.  And let's not forget that one of their writers (Milo Yiannopoulos) is encouraging and aiding the harassment of women in the gaming industry via the GamerGate movement.

If you read that breitbart article I mentioned, it links to Le Figaro, which is a reputable French source - and which cites the 80% figure I mentioned.  I didn't want to link directly to that since it is in French, but the source is within that article.

Offline feu0follet

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #474 on: January 17, 2015, 11:57:58 AM »
le figaro says that in an elementary school ( pupils from 6 to 10 years) 80% of the children were against the moment of silence.
Eventally the teacher managed to bring half of the classroom  to be silent a moment


it says too that a lot of pupils had never seen Charlie 's drawings.

-----------------------

In my point of view, a lot of young muslims have the feeling they are disliked in our society. Some run in a provocative attitude.