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Author Topic: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?  (Read 12871 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #475 on: January 17, 2015, 12:01:38 PM »
A bunch of six-year-olds didn't want to be quiet when they were told to be quiet? Unthinkable. ;)

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #476 on: January 19, 2015, 07:50:17 AM »
The teacher's response to them should've been, I think, to sit down with the class and explain murder, whatever the reason, is still murder, and murder is wrong. Devote the day's lesson to understanding each other.

still... crap... looks bad.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #477 on: January 19, 2015, 11:07:13 PM »
A bunch of six-year-olds didn't want to be quiet when they were told to be quiet? Unthinkable. ;)

I guess we cannot know how it all exactly went down but there's a difference between 6 year olds acting like 6 year olds and 6 year olds systematically and purposely protesting against something because their parents indoctrinated them.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #478 on: January 19, 2015, 11:29:50 PM »
I guess we cannot know how it all exactly went down but there's a difference between 6 year olds acting like 6 year olds and 6 year olds systematically and purposely protesting against something because their parents indoctrinated them.

And which actually happened isn't stated. The average 6-year old is barely at the age where they can understand death, I am going to be extremely skeptical of a child that age being successfully 'indoctrinated' that a specific death was a good thing.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #479 on: January 20, 2015, 01:06:54 AM »
And which actually happened isn't stated. The average 6-year old is barely at the age where they can understand death, I am going to be extremely skeptical of a child that age being successfully 'indoctrinated' that a specific death was a good thing.

Perhaps death isn't even the main point here, the main point is that the man drew Mohammed in a mocking manner and they were asked to keep silent to respect him. But we can only speculate what really happened unless there's some better source out there.

Offline Lunaboreal

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #480 on: February 08, 2015, 05:17:41 PM »
20 pages here, I'll add on more comment from this peanut gallery.

"Peace" in Islam means submission. I'm wary of the religion's intentions.

Offline Cheka Man

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #481 on: February 19, 2015, 11:39:36 AM »
Why of all the mainstream religions, is Islam the one with the most terrorists and the one most likely to behead someone, suicide bomb someone or do something else nasty? It's not the only offender amongst the world's religions, but it does seem to be the worst one.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #482 on: February 19, 2015, 11:58:41 AM »
I don't think those terrorists that behead, suicide bomb or do something else nasty are really muslims.

They are delusional imbeciles who think they understand the Quran but what they practice has nothing to do with Islam.

I'm a bit staggered still that so many people world wide don't see that.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #483 on: February 19, 2015, 12:07:20 PM »
Why of all the mainstream religions, is Islam the one with the most terrorists and the one most likely to behead someone, suicide bomb someone or do something else nasty? It's not the only offender amongst the world's religions, but it does seem to be the worst one.

Weighted publicity is a big factor - not the only one, but a large one in the perception angle. I think it was discussed upthread at least once, but there have been plenty extremely violent 'Christian' terrorist/extremist gangs operating in Africa and Asia - remember Joseph Kony? He was the leader of the 'Lord's Resistance Army'. The Troubles in Northern Ireland were primarily a nationalist conflict, but had a strong religious Protestant-v.-Catholic element as well. But groups like that operate locally, not really intercontinental, so they tend to get local press. 'Islamic' extremists have basically declared war on Western civilization, launching attacks in America and Europe, making them relevant to American and European news organizations that we as Westerners listen to. They get the publicity, which draws them funding and converts from like-minded dissidents, which lets them do more atrocities, which gets them more publicity.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 12:09:34 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #484 on: February 19, 2015, 12:19:40 PM »
Saying that terrorists and the ISIS are doing what they are doing because of their religion is about as ridiculous as saying that the Crusades were actually about liberating the Holy Land from the infidels. Or that the American Civil War was about freeing the slaves.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 12:22:12 PM by Deamonbane »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #485 on: February 19, 2015, 12:31:01 PM »
Saying that terrorists and the ISIS are doing what they are doing because of their religion is about as ridiculous as saying that the Crusades were actually about liberating the Holy Land from the infidels. Or that the American Civil War was about freeing the slaves.

Just a momentary idle diversion, but after taking some history courses in college, I've always been a little amused by the dichotomy of how many people insist slavery had absolutely nothing to do with the Civil War (not including you, since you specifically mentioned freeing slaves), and how many people on the other side insist the whole thing was a noble effort to free the slaves, and how few realize there is a middle ground. The Emancipation Proclamation was a mid-war strategic decision for economic/political benefit, but the Civil War was originally catalyzed specifically over slavery - the Declaration of Succession of South Carolina that kicked the whole thing off spends about half its wordage complaining about it.


....I was going to tie this back into modern Islam somehow, but I can't remember anymore what the relevant point I was getting out of this was. Maybe it'll come back to me.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 12:32:11 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online Oniya

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #486 on: February 19, 2015, 12:31:48 PM »
Just a momentary idle diversion, but after taking some history courses in college, I've always been a little amused by the dichotomy of how many people insist slavery had absolutely nothing to do with the Civil War (not including you, since you specifically mentioned freeing slaves), and how many people on the other side insist the whole thing was a noble effort to free the slaves, and how few realize there is a middle ground. The Emancipation Proclamation was a mid-war strategic decision for economic/political benefit, but the Civil War did originally start specifically over slavery - the Declaration of Succession of South Carolina spends about half its wordage complaining about it.

Yeah. 


Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #487 on: February 19, 2015, 12:40:09 PM »
Yeah. 



I like this guy. He's like a sarcastic Bill Nye of history.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #488 on: February 19, 2015, 03:07:10 PM »
Saying that terrorists and the ISIS are doing what they are doing because of their religion is about as ridiculous as saying that the Crusades were actually about liberating the Holy Land from the infidels. Or that the American Civil War was about freeing the slaves.

Some contemporary sources give the reason for the first crusade as liberating the holy land, others as helping the Greeks.  The truth is likely somewhere in between, but saying "the Crusades were actually about liberating the Holy Land from the infidels" is certainly not ridiculous, it's just telling only a part of the story.

Oniya and Glyphstone have mentioned the American Civil War.

Long story short, ISIS are pretty unquestionably motivated by their religion.  Whether you want to accept their religion as Islam is, I guess, debatable, but claiming that people who specifically and without ambiguity state "This is about my religion" are somehow lying/mistaken isn't helping anyone.

Offline Noonshadow

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #489 on: February 19, 2015, 06:47:12 PM »
Well, the idea of liberating the Holy Lands as part of the Crusades is really only the propaganda version of them.  It's what the church was telling people to get them to buy in:  much like propaganda during the Cold War described it as an attempt to prevent the Russians from taking over the world.  It is true that many people who fought in the Crusades did it because they thought they had been sent on a task to liberate the Holy Land, but it was never what anybody truly desired.

The Byzantine Empire had experienced a long period of decline.  The Komnenoi Dynasty gave it a bit of new life in the 11th century, and they wanted to retake some of the historical lands that been owned by the Byzantine Empire, but they lacked the manpower.  They decide to extend an olive branch back to the Western Church and requested aid.  They point to some of the Islamic events, portraying them as recent offenses, even though most of the events they described were over a hundred years old.  At best, the Byzantine Emperor wanted some mercenaries who might fight on the cheap for a supposedly noble cause.

Urban II (the pope) however, saw this as an attempt to reassert his power, since there was an ongoing struggle between church and secular leaders.  Knights-which have often been portrayed in histories as possessing a code of chivalry and a certain nobility-were often thuggish and disruptive, causing lots of infighting in Western Europe.  The idea was that they would stop infighting in Europe, strengthening Christianity-and with that, the church and the Pope-by attacking non-Christians.

The leaders of any given Crusade were just looking for power and loot.  They tried to carve out their own little fiefdoms in the Middle East, attacking cities that had mostly Christian inhabitants like Nicaea.  The Byzantines tried to make everyone swear an oath that any lands they took would be returned to the Byzantine Empire since their entire reason to CALL for support was to retake their own lands.  It didn't work out that way.

This idea of "retaking the holy lands" was cooked up at the time.  There certainly WAS some concern when the Church of Holy Sepulchre was burned down by a caliph in the early 11th century.  For hundreds of years prior to that, though, it represented a protected community of Christians within the Caliphate.

Offline Dice

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #490 on: February 19, 2015, 07:24:06 PM »
If ISIS is following Islam, it is a very corrupted version of it. Other religions were welcome in early Islamic states (with a small tax placed upon them) and this: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html letter shows how Muhammad himself treated Chistians.

Online Skynet

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #491 on: February 19, 2015, 07:41:26 PM »
If ISIS is following Islam, it is a very corrupted version of it. Other religions were welcome in early Islamic states (with a small tax placed upon them) and this: http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html letter shows how Muhammad himself treated Chistians.

There's also the fact that they're screwing over a lot of fellow Muslims by killing them, and their recent statement on sending half a million immigrant spies into Italy is going to screw over countless more Muslim immigrants in said country.

I can't remember if it was on this thread or another, but E! user Formless once described Osama bin Laden as dragging 1.5 billion of his kin into a conflict they did not choose or want.

I kind of think that IS and a lot of Islamist terrorist groups deliberately do things which result in shittier lives for Muslims so they can build themselves up as 'freedom fighters against Christian/Western/etc' oppression.  Oppression which inevitably results as a reaction to their deeds.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 07:46:04 PM by Skynet »

Offline Silk

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #492 on: February 19, 2015, 08:17:33 PM »
My issue with this sort of arguement is the mix between no true scotsman and the whole "But that wasn't the actual agenda!" arguements. For the former, it doesn't matter if you don't think they are following the true tenants of Islam, what matters is that THEY do, as far as they're concerned, your not the ones following the true tenants, can argue that point till your blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that they believe that they represent true Islam.

Which also leads to the latter, it's an arguement I saw fairly regularly when used to "argue" that Hitler was an Athiest. Could be and he used it to push his agenda, or he genuinely believed his spiel, again, the problem is that what the person at the tops agenda doesn't nessercarily matter in this case, like with the crusades can say "Oh but it's just a land grab yada yada" But the frontline soldiers, the actual armies, they genuinely believed they were doing this, not everyone was in on the "grand scheme" So by treating it as if they were, again will achieve nothing.

Be they true followers of Islam in our opinion or not, they believe they are. So trying to argue that is like trying to argue a no-nuclear missle treaty when your enemy has already launched it's salvo's.

Online Oniya

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #493 on: February 19, 2015, 08:23:04 PM »
But when the question is 'Is Islam a religion of peace?', and the focus is put entirely and solely on the extremists, then it's just as narrow-sighted as asking if Christianity is a religion of peace and focusing solely on the Troubles in Ireland or the wars of the Crusades.

Offline Dice

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #494 on: February 19, 2015, 09:47:54 PM »
When you live in the West, you tend to get the outlook that is custom for that location. The way news filters to you will be framed in such a way to confirm your biases because that is what keeps you watching. Thats the best way to earn a dollar on the TV's side of things. I mean, why not ask if Christianity is a Religion of peace while focusing on the KKK at the same time? What about the issues in Africa near on daily where you can still be killed for being a "Witch". Why is it that we focus the light so harshly on one people and forgo the need to examine our own? The question I feel would be better framed as "Which Religion if any is peaceful in nature" and start from there. Lest we forget that once apon a time, if you were in Spain and were asked "Is Jesus Christ divine" you better answer yes or you were all kinds of fucked.

Online Oniya

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #495 on: February 20, 2015, 09:58:20 AM »
I may just be a skeptic, but I sincerely doubt that the pope of the time, one of the most powerful men in the continent, would have moved thousands of soldiers to a different continent because he felt it was what Jesus would do.

The Pope was making for a territory-grab, but what he told the grunts on the ground was that they would secure their place in heaven by 'saving the Holy Land from the infidels'.  As Kythia said, the truth is more complex.  If you had asked anyone in the company of Peter the Hermit, they would have said they were freeing the Holy Land from infidels.  You might have needed to press them a bit on who the 'infidels' were, though. The Papal decree about remitting all sins of those who took part in the Crusade would have also been a powerful motivator.   People like Baldwin of Boulogne, however, were seeking lands of their own.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #496 on: February 20, 2015, 11:54:40 AM »
Has Deamonbane removed his post?

Regardless, I'm not even certain calling it a "land grab" by the pope is accurate.  The start was the call for help from the eastern church..  The knightly classes were bored after the Peace and Truce.  Urban II desperately needed to show France and the HRE (HRE in particular following the Investiture Controversy) that the Papal States were capable of mustering military might if they felt the need.  Iberia was under Muslim control and the Western Church had a well-developed theology of Holy War by that point, successes in Otremer were likely felt to be a warning to the Iberian Muslims.  Urban II was a reformer who wanted the Eastern Church back under Rome's aegis.  Etc etc etc.  Narrowing it down to "Urban II wanted the First Crusade because of this" is necessarily missing out a shedload of factors.

Plus, Deamonbane, there almost certainly were religious reasons.  Revelation 20 talks about Christ's reign of a thousand years.  Various projected dates - the anniversary of His birth, death, etc - had come and gone without any noticeable apocalypses (apocalypsi?  Spellcheck prefers the first) and current thinking was that it was a thousand years from the death of the last person to see Him in the flesh which, although noone knew the exact date, was looking pretty imminent by 1095.  There was certainly an element of "Fuck, Jesus is gonna be pissed if he comes back and we've lost Jerusalem.  Quick, before He notices". 

It's easy to view the medieval Church, and the papacy in particular, as inherently and irredeemably corrupt and secular, but don't forget that there were devout people there who were taking actions motivated by their faith.  Whether Urban II was one or not is a little open for debate, but a blanket statement like "The Pope wouldn't have done things for purely religious reasons" is incorrect.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #497 on: February 20, 2015, 02:10:06 PM »
*nods* I removed my post because, when I reread it, I didn't like the tone it carried, feeling too argumentative and passive aggressive.

And you make some very good points.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #498 on: April 02, 2015, 11:28:04 AM »
But when the question is 'Is Islam a religion of peace?', and the focus is put entirely and solely on the extremists, then it's just as narrow-sighted as asking if Christianity is a religion of peace and focusing solely on the Troubles in Ireland or the wars of the Crusades.

No, because all of the atrocities of Christianity combined do not come close to the atrocities that Islam has inflicted on the world. It's not even a contest. In terms of policies, raw population slaughtered - by whatever measure you choose, Islam is the most brutal ideology Earth has ever known.

Go ahead. Compare extremists. Find me one Christian with Timur's bodycount. The only man to exceed him is Genghis Khan and his respect for Nestorian Christianity - and certainly, he made use of religion in his decrees. ("I have been sent by God to punish you for your sins!") but he himself was not Christian. Hitler may have been Christian, but Timur was still worse (if only because Hitler got beaten), and unlike Hitler, Timur was specifically religious in his ideology.

Islam is a religion founded in violence. You would not even mention the crusades (at least with respect to Islam) were it not for the conquests of the Rashidun and Umayyad caliphates. That the crusades are used as any response to Islam's atrocities is almost a sick a joke as people crying 'Islamophobia' and equating a distrust of Islam with racism because apparently Islam = Arab.

Arabs being the ones who invented racism as we now have it, and who still practice their racism without shame.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #499 on: April 02, 2015, 11:41:57 AM »
For those still under the illusion that Christianity is some holy, peaceful religion:

"And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him."

Genesis 4:8


Genesis is the first book of the Bible, Cain and Abel were the sons of Adam and Eve. The 3rd person ever to set foot on this planet, according to the bible, killed his brother. The whole bible is full of murders and rapes and other kinds of atrocities. The Quran is not.

So perhaps, modern day muslims are more violent than Christians, which I very much doubt, but purely based on the religion, nothing ever beats Christianity in terms of violence and cruelties.