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Author Topic: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?  (Read 12851 times)

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Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« on: September 07, 2014, 05:51:19 AM »
Hello.

This has probably come up  before. If so I apologise, because the last topic related to this hasn't been active for a month or two. Unless I missed something.

Anyway! I'd like to make this OP short and to the point. While I could point a finger at what the so called extremists are doing right now(ISIS, unrest in Germany, Norway, Sweden etc) I'd rather target the religion itself. Or rather its trilogy: the Quran, the Sira and the Hadith.

Now, I'm not claiming to be an expert in the field. Perhaps the stuff I'm saying is out of ignorance. But I believe there is one hard fact everybody will agree upon with me. And that is that in order to be a Muslim you must recognize Allah as your only God(and Allah basically means God in Arabic anyway), and Muhammad as his last prophet.

This is a very hefty topic so I'd like to begin with a fairly short argument as to why I think Islam is not a religion of peace. If we look at some of the major religions, many of them have a founding figure, fictional or not, that sets an example how one should act if one is to practice their faith. This is one aspect of these religions that I think makes them more successful compared to purely polytheistic religions of the past. In case of Christianity it is Jesus. In case of Buddhism it is Buddha. And in case of Islam it is said in the Quran that the followers are needed to emulate Muhammed's behavior. In each case the founder, or the head figure that is described in the scriptures sets an example for his followers.

Jesus taught humility and forgiveness. In all of his journeys Jesus said only a few controversial things. Claiming to be a son of God could be considered one. And then he said something about conquest once but hey... in general Jesus leaves the impression of a narcissistic but harmless hippie(from an atheist's perspective). He didn't exactly hurt anybody on purpose.

Buddha was fairly similar in his ways. Although Buddhism is vastly different from the Abrahamic religions, Buddha's strategy was similar to Jesus'. He traveled from village to village and spoke to those who were willing to listen. He's probably the least controversial figure of all. It is pretty hard to find anything remotely violent in Buddhist teachings, the Sutras. Impossible, I'd say.

What about Muhammed though? An overwhelming amount of sources suggest that he was a bloodthirsty warlord who spread his religion through violence and deceit, unlike the other two figures I mentioned before. Here are some of the verses taken from Quran that cannot be associated with a 'religion of peace' on any level:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
47:4 So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

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8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

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9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

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2:286 Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

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4:101 And when you travel throughout the land, there is no blame upon you for shortening the prayer, [especially] if you fear that those who disbelieve may disrupt [or attack] you. Indeed, the disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy.

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48:6 And [that] He may punish the hypocrite men and hypocrite women, and the polytheist men and polytheist women - those who assume about Allah an assumption of evil nature. Upon them is a misfortune of evil nature; and Allah has become angry with them and has cursed them and prepared for them Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

As you can see an alarming number of verses are dedicated to indoctrinating Muslims about Kafirs(unbelievers) and how they should be dealt with. The Quran is very clear about the distinction between Muslims and everybody else. The verses are hateful, and militant, and while some of them might have a bit of wiggle room for interpretation it would be extremely difficult to fit them into the context of an allegedly peaceful religion.


But there are also quite a few peaceful verses that Islamic apologists are so fond of. So the usual excuse I see most often is that well, Muhammad was a man of his time and thus what he did and said could be excused. Surely we wouldnt' do anything of the sort nowadays. To that I have to ask why didn't Jesus ride a dragon to raze Rome to the ground? Surely Jesus was a product of his time too. And so was Buddha. Yet they could still maintain a fairly peaceful message throughout their journey despite the hostile reception they might have received. Not Muhammad though. That guy simply wouldn't turn the other cheek.

It simply doesn't work this way as evident by what is going on today, in the Muslim world. Not to mention if you look at history it is even bloodier. There is no excuse for what Muhammad did, in or out of his historical context. Even if we assume that the verses which preach Jihad are 'outdated' there's obviously an alarming number of Muslims who believe the Jihad verses override the peaceful ones. This conflict will never end simply because Islam is dualistic and rotten at its core. And if you ignore roughly half of what the Quran tells you to do, as a Muslim, can you even be considered a Muslim anymore? That's not how religion works. It's all or nothing.

There's also this alarming habit of pointing at other religions and saying they are just as murderous to somehow diffuse responsibility. It is true that perhaps some of the Crusades(although I personally believe they were launched in defense against the Muslim invaders, unlike what the mainstream sources tell us) were unnecessary and caused many deaths. But we can safely say that these were radical measures and the people who did this were contradicting the peaceful message of the New Testament. But can you say the same about extremist Islamists? Because unlike Jesus, Muhammad conquered with violence too back in his day. So within the context of Islam, the extremists aren't doing anything wrong compared to the crusaders.

In any case, if you think I'm wrong in any of this feel free to correct me. And I'd really like to see a sound argument for Islam that can somehow prove that it could be a religion of peace.

http://quran.com/
http://www.politicalislam.com/pdf/WebSitePDF/Hadith.pdf


Offline Dice

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2014, 06:19:56 AM »
I do not see this going anywhere good, and I am not about to start pulling out a list of bible verses that show that the bible is not much better (I will just leave Luke 19:27 here and nothing more). I would sum it up like this. All these books are written by men that existed in a time unlike our own and offer good and bad for us to draw from. The issues are not about the choice of religion you follow, but about the Fundamentalist whom see things only thought one lenses. Islam is no more of a danger to the world than Christianity is, its the people whom are blinded by there faith (Regardless of what it is) that are a danger.

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2014, 06:44:46 AM »
Dice
I do not see this going anywhere good, and I am not about to start pulling out a list of bible verses that show that the bible is not much better (I will just leave Luke 19:27 here and nothing more). I would sum it up like this. All these books are written by men that existed in a time unlike our own and offer good and bad for us to draw from. The issues are not about the choice of religion you follow, but about the Fundamentalist whom see things only thought one lenses. Islam is no more of a danger to the world than Christianity is, its the people whom are blinded by there faith (Regardless of what it is) that are a danger.

I would like to second every word Dice said. Well said and put.

However , for the benefit of everyone here , I'd like to point out on thing about this argument.

Bring me one verse in Qur'an that demanded Muslims to start war. Any ' Militant ( as you've called it ) verses were brought within the context of war.

There's also the idea that Mohammad was a bloodthirsty person. The only battles he did were the conquest of Makkah , Medinah and the lands around them. And for the record , Jews were living in Medinah along side the Muslims during his days. With no bounds , shackles of any sort.

And the battles just mentioned were a necessity since Mohammad was almost killed when he first started preaching peacefully about his religion. But other than those battles , there were none.

Its up to you how you want to view a religion and its figures.

That is all I'll have to say on this matter as I don't need to even acknowledge the goons of ISIS as Muslims. Just because someone wears the same shirt I do , doesn't mean I have to defend what my shirt represents.

Offline Shjade

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 07:40:01 AM »
There's also this alarming habit of pointing at other religions and saying they are just as murderous to somehow diffuse responsibility. It is true that perhaps some of the Crusades(although I personally believe they were launched in defense against the Muslim invaders, unlike what the mainstream sources tell us) were unnecessary and caused many deaths. But we can safely say that these were radical measures and the people who did this were contradicting the peaceful message of the New Testament. But can you say the same about extremist Islamists? Because unlike Jesus, Muhammad conquered with violence too back in his day. So within the context of Islam, the extremists aren't doing anything wrong compared to the crusaders.

I find the hypocrisy of accusing one religion of being inherently violent while claiming others are not based solely on choice lines from their respective scriptures more alarming.

The answer to your question is, "Yes." Does that mean everyone who claims to be Islamic is peaceful? No, of course not, no more than everyone who claims to be Christian loves his/her neighbor as themselves. This is a fault of the people, not the religion.

Glad I could help clear that up for you.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2014, 07:45:12 AM »
I would argue that one has to admit that ISIS is Islam.

To deny it like Formless had done is to evoke the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. After all no true Muslim would be in ISIS, right?

It doesn't matter that you don't acknowledge them, they themselves do, and they are currently the face of Islam right now in the news.

I do not see this going anywhere good, and I am not about to start pulling out a list of bible verses that show that the bible is not much better (I will just leave Luke 19:27 here and nothing more). I would sum it up like this. All these books are written by men that existed in a time unlike our own and offer good and bad for us to draw from. The issues are not about the choice of religion you follow, but about the Fundamentalist whom see things only thought one lenses. Islam is no more of a danger to the world than Christianity is, its the people whom are blinded by there faith (Regardless of what it is) that are a danger.

Christianity isn't a religion of peace either. But Christianity isn't dictating the laws of countries at the moment like Islam is in some of the Arabic countries.

Offline Dice

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2014, 07:49:45 AM »
That is only because the nations that Christianity are strong no longer let Religion dictate laws. I would ask that you look at history, stating with the Papal States and then we can have that talk.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 08:12:56 AM »
Islam as religion scripture is arguably no more violent than other monotheistic religions.  However, it often plays a far stronger sociocultural role among its followers.  I appreciate Islamic moderates like Formless, and know there are many of them in Western society also - friends, colleagues, and neighbors.   However, there are a vast number of moderate Muslims who often do not realize the historical context of certain verses in the Qu'ran - and there lies the problem.

For example, those criticizing Islam as promoting slavery of women, cite verses such as "“O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom they right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee” (33:50) and, "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses” (4:24).

Recently, I was watching this documentary which features exploratory dialogue between Tommy Robinson of the EDL and Mohammed Ansar (a self-proclaimed moderate British Muslim commentator in the UK). 

Whether or not the Qu'ran encourages sexual slavery was analyzed by Usama Hasan, a senior researcher of Islam Studies in the UK.  He states that while this does refer to sexual slavery in past years, this was also part of ancient culture.  He also mentions that all the "dos and donts" in the Qu'ran are framed within periodic cultural norms of justice, and all are liable to change.  Tom Holland, author of In the Shadow of the Sword, states that Islam does have a problem because the holy scriptures originate from an ancient period in history (as is the case with other monotheistic religions).  He mentions that this is problematic in our contemporary, mainstream society which takes it for granted that "slavery is a wrong."  He asks rhetorically how we square this with direct scripture from the Bible and Qu'ran which seem to justify slavery.

If you read the Qu'ran, many of the verses seem to discriminate against women, but for that time period, many of the verses regarding women were actually revolutionary in nature, and actually improved women's rights.  As a result, both Hasan and Holland agree for the vital importance to "historicize" the Qu'ran, and situate verses within the particular time period to avoid confusion.  Holland continued on to say that the basic principles of brotherhood are eternal, while the details about slavery and killing homosexuals can be phased out - because humanity has moved on.  He states this is the way ahead for a "British form of Islam."

However, most troubling within this interview is that the Muslim moderate (Mohammad Ansar) disagreed.  Also troubling was the fact that Usama Hasan mentioned receiving death threats for his truly moderate views from the greater Muslim community of the UK. 

Why would moderate Muslims be opposed to this?  Shockingly, Mohammed Ansar said that this value system does not need reform - almost reinforcing the fact that he seems to truly take these verses to heart as a way of life.  We can be as politically correct as we want, but if moderate Muslims are denouncing such efforts, there is truly an issue that needs to be addressed.  The child grooming that is almost exclusively an issue within the Muslim community in the UK should then come as no surprise.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 08:17:30 AM by Valthazar »

Offline Dice

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2014, 08:19:18 AM »
I think talking about editing the Qu'ran is about as necessary as editing the bible. I mean both are filled with gender inequality, slavery and other social issues. No one is asking that the bible be changed, I see no reason that the Qu'ran should be either.

The issue for both books is reading too deeply into the parts that are outdated. The Bible says gays a bad, then the second paragraph after says if your son disobeys you, stone him to death. Personally I am happy to just disregard both of these verses and move on with my day. No reason this can not be the same for others.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 08:29:13 AM »
This isn't a competition between whether it is verses of the Bible or the Qu'ran which are 'more wrong.'

The problem is that there is a sizable number of moderate Muslims who are taking an extreme reading of the Qu'ran, yet parading under the banner of 'moderate Islam.'  I recently read the book, While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer, which describes how European governments subscribe to the worst kind of political correctness.  "From Norway to Italy, governments shower immigrants with benefits, yet corral them into ghettos, prevent them from becoming real citizens and turn a blind eye to Muslim attacks on women."

He describes how Europe's greatest enemy is not Islam, or even radical Islam.  It is its self-destructive passivity and softness towards tyranny.  In other words, immigrants from Muslim nations bring with them many tribal customs that are flagrantly inconsistent with a Western understanding of human rights, which lead to potential conflict between the Muslim immigrant communities and their host societies.

As I said earlier, the issue isn't the religious scripture of Islam - but rather, its implementation in a sociocultural way of life.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 09:20:20 AM »
The problem is that there is a sizable number of moderate Muslims who are taking an extreme reading of the Qu'ran, yet parading under the banner of 'moderate Islam.'  I recently read the book, While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer, which describes how European governments subscribe to the worst kind of political correctness.  "From Norway to Italy, governments shower immigrants with benefits, yet corral them into ghettos, prevent them from becoming real citizens and turn a blind eye to Muslim attacks on women."

He describes how Europe's greatest enemy is not Islam, or even radical Islam.  It is its self-destructive passivity and softness towards tyranny.  In other words, immigrants from Muslim nations bring with them many tribal customs that are flagrantly inconsistent with a Western understanding of human rights, which lead to potential conflict between the Muslim immigrant communities and their host societies.

I'm actually in the middle of reading this book right now! A fairly eye-opening read. Although sometimes it feels like he praises the US too much.

This isn't a competition between whether it is verses of the Bible or the Qu'ran which are 'more wrong.'

As I said earlier, the issue isn't the religious scripture of Islam - but rather, its implementation in a sociocultural way of life.

But the scripture is the source. I think they should be required to secularise if they want to bring their religion to Europe because otherwise it just doesn't work. That or the scriptures need to be heavily edited at this point in order to be more compatible with western views of equality, freedom of speech and so forth. Because if you accept a group of people into your western secular country and allow them to keep their religion in tact you are bound to have problems later. Not to mention the government actually funds the mosques.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 09:37:55 AM »
But the scripture is the source. I think they should be required to secularise if they want to bring their religion to Europe because otherwise it just doesn't work. That or the scriptures need to be heavily edited at this point in order to be more compatible with western views of equality, freedom of speech and so forth. Because if you accept a group of people into your western secular country and allow them to keep their religion in tact you are bound to have problems later. Not to mention the government actually funds the mosques.

I entirely agree with you.  Europe (and the US) is in for a world of trouble with multiculturalism without any efforts of assimilation.  But again, their views can't definitely be attributed to Islam.  It is a cultural problem.

Look at India for example.  India has a human rights record which is appalling in comparison to western standards - and even the average Indian has value sets which differ from Western norms.  If you transport 10,000 Indians Hindus into a UK town without any efforts of integration or assimilation, you'll basically get the same result as what you have now in Europe with Muslims.  People who don't share western views of equality, freedom of speech, and so forth.

It's as ludicrous as suggesting that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are crossing the border into the US for a chance to be part of a democratic republic, upholding Constitutional values.  This may be true for some, but the vast majority just want an easier life.  Reality is that they don't share these same values (unless it is instilled in them through schooling, community, etc.)

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2014, 11:10:55 AM »
Something I've noticed when it comes to these accusations that Islam is inherently violent: They're pretty much always thinking about very specific parts of the Middle East. Nobody's ever talking about, say, Indonesia, or the huge numbers of Muslims living peacefully in Western nations.

Maybe this violence has more to do with... being constantly surrounded by violence and given graphic and visceral demonstrations that might makes right?

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2014, 01:49:43 PM »
QT
I would argue that one has to admit that ISIS is Islam.

To deny it like Formless had done is to evoke the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. After all no true Muslim would be in ISIS, right?

It doesn't matter that you don't acknowledge them, they themselves do, and they are currently the face of Islam right now in the news.

Christianity isn't a religion of peace either. But Christianity isn't dictating the laws of countries at the moment like Islam is in some of the Arabic countries.

Perhaps you should review my other topic linked here

A Muslim commits apostasy when they attack and kill another Muslim. Which is exactly what the ISIS is doing. Hence why I said just because someone wears the same shirt I wear , doesn't mean I have to defend what my shirt represents.



@ Valthazar : Correction would start by calling the likes of me as Muslims and not ' moderate '.

Second , Correction and any editorial effort should come from within in order to bring out the true peaceful essence of Islam. Matters of beliefs needs someone who understands that belief to begin with , and not someone who follows a manual of ' peace '.

In the end , everyone chooses their own judgment upon what they see , be it religion or whatever it is. All I ask is to view me as another human being , and take me for what I do , and not for what someone else does.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2014, 01:59:12 PM »
Quote
A Muslim commits apostasy when they attack and kill another Muslim. Which is exactly what the ISIS is doing. Hence why I said just because someone wears the same shirt I wear , doesn't mean I have to defend what my shirt represents.

Except they firmly believe that the other Muslims they are killing are the apostates that have betrayed the sacred doctrine of Islam, the Quran. So we're back to square one nonetheless. Who is a real Muslim in our world?

Perhaps with most certainty we could say that Muhammad was a Muslim. That is pretty much undisputed. He was the founder of Islam, after all. Next come the people he personally accepted into Islam and called his brothers.

But what about today? Who is a real Muslim? One that says the violent passages of Quran are just a relic of the past or one that actually practices them and does exactly as the Quran says?

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 02:10:39 PM »
Except they firmly believe that the other Muslims they are killing are the apostates that have betrayed the sacred doctrine of Islam, the Quran. So we're back to square one nonetheless. Who is a real Muslim in our world?

Perhaps with most certainty we could say that Muhammad was a Muslim. That is pretty much undisputed. He was the founder of Islam, after all. Next come the people he personally accepted into Islam and called his brothers.

But what about today? Who is a real Muslim? One that says the violent passages of Quran are just a relic of the past or one that actually practices them and does exactly as the Quran says?

You still have not replied to my first question in my first post in this thread.

Perhaps you should answer that question and then you'll find the answer you seek.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2014, 02:27:05 PM »
Buddha was fairly similar in his ways. Although Buddhism is vastly different from the Abrahamic religions, Buddha's strategy was similar to Jesus'. He traveled from village to village and spoke to those who were willing to listen. He's probably the least controversial figure of all. It is pretty hard to find anything remotely violent in Buddhist teachings, the Sutras. Impossible, I'd say.

Well, you'd be wrong to.  See for example the discussion of holy war in the Kalachakra or the teachings about Icchantikas in the Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa just off the top of my head.

Quote
That's not how religion works. It's all or nothing.

[citation needed].  Or, less sarcastically, why is it up to you how religion works.  You're not religious and as various people have pointed out - including my comment about Buddhism above - you have gaps in your factual knowledge about religion.  Frankly, if we're having a worldwide vote on who gets to decide how it works, I probably won't be voting for you.

Quote
There's also this alarming habit of pointing at other religions and saying they are just as murderous to somehow diffuse responsibility. It is true that perhaps some of the Crusades(although I personally believe they were launched in defense against the Muslim invaders, unlike what the mainstream sources tell us) were unnecessary and caused many deaths.

You will need to provide evidence of Muslim invaders for that to be the case.  They really are a sine qua non of your theory and you'd think someone would have noticed and mentioned them at the time.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2014, 02:41:01 PM »
You will need to provide evidence of Muslim invaders for that to be the case.  They really are a sine qua non of your theory and you'd think someone would have noticed and mentioned them at the time.

Adding to Kythia's statement here, there are many documentaries on the Crusades available online that point rather specifically at the Franks (Europeans) being the aggressors until it became necessary for the local populace to defend themselves.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2014, 02:50:01 PM »
@ Valthazar : Correction would start by calling the likes of me as Muslims and not ' moderate '.

What do you mean by this?

Which term should we use to differentiate between Muslims who live in peace versus Muslims who are actively trying to overthrow or transform Western institutions?

Tahir Alam, the chairman of the Park View Educational Trust which runs six schools in Birmingham, was found to have written a 72-page document for the Muslim Council of Britain in 2007 detailing a blueprint for the "Islamisation" of secular state schools.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trojan_Horse

This is a mainstream Muslim, in a position of importance in Britain, trying to teach Islamic beliefs in British schools.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2014, 03:34:23 PM »
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Well, you'd be wrong to.  See for example the discussion of holy war in the Kalachakra or the teachings about Icchantikas in the Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa just off the top of my head.

That's interesting, thank you for correcting me.

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[citation needed].  Or, less sarcastically, why is it up to you how religion works.  You're not religious and as various people have pointed out - including my comment about Buddhism above - you have gaps in your factual knowledge about religion.  Frankly, if we're having a worldwide vote on who gets to decide how it works, I probably won't be voting for you.

It is a fairly simple equation, the less you practice your religion the less of a believer in that certain religion you are. Otherwise you might as well be a hedonistic gay man with three husbands and have never read the Bible or stepped into a real church in your life yet still be considered as much of a Christian as the most devout church-goer as long as you claim to be one. Since Gods have not sent any new prophets with new scriptures to override the old ones, how do we know if being secular doesn't mean being less of a Christian or Muslim?

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You will need to provide evidence of Muslim invaders for that to be the case.  They really are a sine qua non of your theory and you'd think someone would have noticed and mentioned them at the time.

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Bring me one verse in Qur'an that demanded Muslims to start war. Any ' Militant ( as you've called it ) verses were brought within the context of war.

I'll get back to you on that one once I find that article or video that claimed Muslims started the war.

As for the militant verses, does it matter if they were written to justify self-defense or not? Too much of the Quran is devoted to war with the unbelievers. If they had separated the two Qurans, one that governs the peaceful religion, and one that supposedly covers the violent history, that would have made more sense. But it is all packed into this one thick book and it causes a whole lot of confusion. If it were two different books we wouldn't be having so many arguments about it this day, and there would probably be less extremist Islamists around.

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2014, 03:38:56 PM »
As for the militant verses, does it matter if they were written to justify self-defense or not? Too much of the Quran is devoted to war with the unbelievers. If they had separated the two Qurans, one that governs the peaceful religion, and one that supposedly covers the violent history, that would have made more sense. But it is all packed into this one thick book and it causes a whole lot of confusion. If it were two different books we wouldn't be having so many arguments about it this day, and there would probably be less extremist Islamists around.

I rest my case.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2014, 03:42:13 PM »
It is a fairly simple equation, the less you practice your religion the less of a believer in that certain religion you are. Otherwise you might as well be a hedonistic gay man with three husbands and have never read the Bible or stepped into a real church in your life yet still be considered as much of a Christian as the most devout church-goer as long as you claim to be one. Since Gods have not sent any new prophets with new scriptures to override the old ones, how do we know if being secular doesn't mean being less of a Christian or Muslim?

Except of course for all the new prophets that have been sent.  Simply within the umbrella of Christianity alone the Orthodox churches believe we are literally still in the patristic period, the Roman Catholic Church (and related) believe in the infallibility of Ecumenical decisions, the LDS believe in continuing revelation, the Anglican Communion have a weak belief in ongoing revelation etc etc etc.   I get a bit weaker outside Christianity and I'll defer to Formless on this but my understanding is that the Fatwa system serves a similar purpose.

Religion is a complicated subject and there are many issues where two people can, in good faith, hold opposite views.  This isn't one of them.  While there are certainly Christian sects that do believe the Bible is the final word they are, numerically, vastly the minority.  That is not the belief of the majority of Christians and your claim that its "not how religion works" is demonstrably incorrect.

In fact - and this is a weak argument because I dislike the "this doctrine came first" argument (Anglican self -defence  ;D) - this view that the Bible wasn't the final word and other sources were valid long long long predates the alternate (in Christianity, I mean.)  How do you imagine something like the idea of Saints could have developed in a faith which believed everything that would be said has been said? 

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2014, 03:55:45 PM »
Which term should we use to differentiate between Muslims who live in peace versus Muslims who are actively trying to overthrow or transform Western institutions?

The same term that we use for those people that want to put creationism in US text books?

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2014, 04:03:52 PM »
The same term that we use for those people that want to put creationism in US text books?

Yeah, I think we would call them radical Christians, even though we are aware that many Christians are more moderate in their thinking than this.  That's why I was asking Formless why he took issue with the term moderate Muslim, and which term we should be using in its place to differentiate mainstream Muslims from radical Muslims.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2014, 04:07:29 PM »
Well, we don't call moderate Christians 'moderate'.  We don't even really call them 'mainstream' Christians.  We call them Christians, and leave the differentiating adjectives to the ones that are the exceptions.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2014, 04:14:51 PM »
Except of course for all the new prophets that have been sent.  Simply within the umbrella of Christianity alone the Orthodox churches believe we are literally still in the patristic period, the Roman Catholic Church (and related) believe in the infallibility of Ecumenical decisions, the LDS believe in continuing revelation, the Anglican Communion have a weak belief in ongoing revelation etc etc etc.   I get a bit weaker outside Christianity and I'll defer to Formless on this but my understanding is that the Fatwa system serves a similar purpose.

Religion is a complicated subject and there are many issues where two people can, in good faith, hold opposite views.  This isn't one of them.  While there are certainly Christian sects that do believe the Bible is the final word they are, numerically, vastly the minority.  That is not the belief of the majority of Christians and your claim that its "not how religion works" is demonstrably incorrect.

In fact - and this is a weak argument because I dislike the "this doctrine came first" argument (Anglican self -defence  ;D) - this view that the Bible wasn't the final word and other sources were valid long long long predates the alternate (in Christianity, I mean.)  How do you imagine something like the idea of Saints could have developed in a faith which believed everything that would be said has been said?

Fair enough. The amount of interpretations and confessions is mind-boggling indeed. But what do you mean by 'Except of course for all the new prophets that have been sent'? What kind of prophets were sent to Earth, according to the mainstream holy scriptures, after Muhammad? Joseph Smith Jr.? I mean, in case some Christian confessions actually think some priests among them are new prophets I wasn't aware of that.

Still the question remains unanswered despite you poking holes in my posts. Is it a religion of peace then or not? Or is it what you make it out to be? Because in this case many will make it a religion of war anyway, as they have done and are doing right now.