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Author Topic: Will feminism really bring women happiness?  (Read 9197 times)

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Offline MonfangTopic starter

Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« on: February 14, 2013, 03:44:25 AM »
I won't be able to sleep till I type this up, so here goes.

First off, yes I am a male but I am also someone who studies the culture and the effect of different movements on the population. And something I noticed is that Feminism might have started with good intentions, but it has done more harm to women and the family than good.

Feminists like to paint the traditional family as one where the man held all the power and the woman slaved to serve him and see to all his needs above her own. They painted these images of women in utter misery and frustration that women lived in these restricted lives. But as I look at the effect it has on our culture, I wonder if perhaps that isn't true? If it was, then wouldn't we see divorce rates drop as women get such a sense of freedom that they seek out their partners and everyone becomes happy? Yet, I find that at the start of the second wave of feminism around the 1960's the divorce rate skyrockets and hasn't fallen sense then.

And then I look at the effect it has on women, their self confidence couldn't have been lower with feminists doubletalking on how 'liberated' women should dress and behave and such. I wonder if any woman feels liberated as much as they feel trapped in following what they say. Then lastly I see how it effects honest Equality. Instead of women being judged as equals to men, they want to put in rules that says that there must be a set ratio of men to women no matter the qualifications of ether.

I'm sure I might be mistaken as a misogynistic man who wants to put women 'back in their place' and if you believe that then I doubt I will reach you at all. But if you are willing to take in what I have to say, perhaps we can find common ground.

1) Women in the Culture:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Nothing irritates me more than people crying 'sexist' at anything involving men and women they don't like. The most recent case I heard was about what marking executives said about the cover art of the game 'The Last of Us'. They said that because there wasn't a powerful male figure or a sexually appealing female figure as the main figure on the game, it won't sell as well. It didn't take long for people to call them sexist for saying such a thing. There is just one problem:

They aren't wrong.

Ignorant, yes. But not wrong. Lets get a few facts in; First, most gamers are male. Second, most gamers are also in a sexually high point of their lives. Powerful men and sexualized men are attractive to them because they ether get a rush from the women or like pretending they are the men. It's a primal part of how we function and it won't change. Now, they are ignorant in that most gamers look past the cover art and find what appeals to us inside the game. However, this does speak to how feminists want to change how women are portrayed in the culture into something that isn't true like trying to make Wonder Woman not wear her trademark one-piece.

Here's a shocker folks, women are sexy. Most of that physical sexiness comes from their breasts and hips. You can't change that. However feminists want to make women believe that if they dress sexy for anything other than to show how 'liberated' the woman is, she is just feeding the evil men what they want. And it's even worse if it's for a husband.

So here's my suggestion. Women, if you want to dress sexy.. do it! I know the honest reason why you dress sexy, it's because you are trying to attract a male! You don't have to do anything else than to show men that you have breasts and hips and they will do the rest. In nature, this is why males have prominent features so that they do all the work and can attract the females. In human culture, Men do this by making themselves seem strong, seem powerful, seem wealthy, or seem smart. Nature already had it so that men had to do all the work to get your permission to mate, you don't need feminism to do it.

TL;DR: Nature already gave women all the power, you don't need feminism for that.

2: Women in the family unit
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Nothing tickle's feminists pink more than a chance to rant on about how women were slaves to their husbands before the liberation movement. How they were nothing more than breeding machines, cooks, maids and sources of the man's pleasure. I honestly couldn't believe that those are true without stretches of imagination. Yet, to this day they paint housewives as enslaved women wanting to break free and work just like a man when most housewives I've spoken to are actually turned off by the idea of working like her husband does.

When it comes to the role of Men and women in marriage, I look to the Bible. While some might picture that as being the biggest source of repression, the reverse is actually true. The text gives 7 responsibilities to men and 5 to women in marriage that I will list here:

Men:
  • To love his wife
It seems to be the most obvious, but it defines the love in two ways. First: it is as Christ loves the Church and Second: it is as Man should love his body. The former means that just like Christ came to the Church to clean it of blemishes and sacrificed Himself for it's betterment, so too must Man to his Wife. He must give everything of himself to his wife for her betterment. The latter refers to how a man would keep his body clean, healthy and appealing so too a man must to his wife as they are now of 'one flesh'. A man would not punish his own body, so too a man should not punish his wife. If a wife is tired, a man should insure she gets rest. If she is lonely, he must insure that she gets attention.
  • To admire his wife
Most of us know what Adam said when he first saw Eve:
Quote
The man said, ”This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”
This is very important because the phrase 'This is now' speaks to his admiration of her. He had waited and wanted for her for so long and now is in awe of her. So too a man must of his wife not only when they are married but every day of their lives. It is how I say: Treat her like a Person, then a Princess, then a Greek Goddess, then a Person again.
  • To separate from his parents
Something I see way too often is a husband who has overbearing parents sticking their noses in everything. This has been a cliche in so many movies, I won't stay for long. Just know when it says in the Bible 'Separate from his parents', it means more than just moving out, it means drawing a line in the sand.
  • To be joined to his wife
This speaks to more than just the husband taking the intuitive in approaching his wife sexually, it also means that he should take intuitive on everything concerning building the relationship with his wife. We like to pretend that there are women out there for the shy men, but there honestly might not be. Men should strike first when it comes to building a relationship both before and after a marriage. A woman should never feel wanting for her husband. It also means that when something happens in the family, men should be the first to act if he can. If the children are misbehaving, he should get up first and solve the problem. If there is a problem with the home, then he should move first to make it better. A slothful husband is a bad husband.
  • To be transparent in the relationship with his wife
Usually it takes therapy for a couple to learn that the moment ether side starts hiding something, things fall apart. This is repeated with women, of course because they aren't immune to it ether. It is a sad development in our culture when men are taught to hide things from their significant other. This also means that men should be open to things that women say to them.
  • To be the head of woman
Now I might be getting women burning their bras over this one. But I ask that you put the match down and wait just a moment. I said this already but it is laid out that men are the head of the family like Christ is the head of the Church. Jesus didn't come to give orders and force change and nether should a husband. A husband should care for, protect and sacrifice for his wife like Christ did for the Church.
  • To show honor to his wife
This is actually the easiest. Open the door for her, pull out the seat for her, help her across puddles. Everything we attribute to chilvery. Men are naturally stronger than women. There is no way around this. But rather than a man using this to control his wife, he should use this strength to assist her in her life.
[/list]

Those are the seven things that, according to the Christian Philosophy, a man should do for his wife. And here are the five things that it says a woman should do for her husband.

  • To be a suitable helper for the husband
A narrow view of this would make it seems that a woman is to be a caretaker for the husband, however this isn't true. It is a request that first, a couple should have the same goals in life so that the woman can actively partake in achieving those goals with her husband. Second, a couple should also have activities that they both actively enjoy. She will also help him with his individual goals by giving helpful advice and guidance in doing so.
  • To respond actively to the good initiatives of her husband
Above, we saw a man be told to take initiative in doing good things for his wife. Here, we see that it is the wife's duty to respond positively to those good things. Nothing frustrates a man more than to have his good initiatives responded with nothing or worse a negative reaction. It is actually this that lead to the separation of my parents and it's why I can barely stand my own mom. She never showed any positive reaction to the good things I've done. She always found the things I did wrong instead. If you want a husband to do good things, a wife should show that she appricates the good things.
  • To be open with the husband
Just like with men above, a wife must be open about her desires, wants and needs or else the husband will feel separated from her or be unable to complete his duties to her. This means no double talk or 'dropping hints'. It means flatly stating what the wife wants or needs.
  • To be subject to the husband
Put those matches down! Just like i said in the man's section, this does not mean a wife is a slave or a servant. It means that she respects his role as the head so long as he respects his duties to her. It doesn't mean the wife is inferior to man in any stretch of the imagination.
  • To love her husband with love and affection
The men got the same message but in three different forms, but it is important to get this clear. Nothing tears a family apart as much as a husband and wife that doesn't show they love each other. A wife might use the excuse that there are too many worries such as little children. But when children see a love and affection from their parents, they grow stronger for it. They feel safe and loved as well. Besides, it is the duty of the man to assist his wife with her worries so a little appreciation goes a long way.
[/list]

I expected to have more, but honestly that's all I wanted to get out from my research. It's out in the public so what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Agree with some but not all? Disagree with some or not all? Or am I going to get picketed outside my home soon?

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 05:02:26 AM »
Feminism for one is about equality of both men and women.  A feminist is someone that looks for equality for both men and women in all aspects of life.  That truth does become lost amidst the glaring spectacle of media but that is the simple truth of the word feminism.  The movement began not just to uplift women but to also bring about awareness in men about not only the plight of women but also of their own restrictions.  Feminism has certainly expanded the notion of men as fathers in the lives of their children, as care givers in their roles as nurses and teachers and in their roles as important members of a child’s life with paternity leave.  So please do not paint feminism as a movement that is solely focused on women.

The traditional family in the United States of America was a patriarchal one.  Men controlled the finances and the distribution of wealth across their family.  This is a powerful factor in any family as this means that the male of the family unit can monitor what the money is spent on, who has access to the money and any decisions involving the income of the family (which almost all decisions involve income to some extent from buying items to having children).  A woman deprived of the bread winner was left with little recourse in her financial life and even less culturally.  This indeed painted women as enslaved to their husband and male counterpart.  An extension of this are with female dominated jobs and pay, even to this day, where those jobs still suffer from a lack of competitive pay and a sense of professionalism.  Why?  Largely this is due to those jobs being thought of as a supplemental income to a man’s salary.

Legally and culturally this standard was upheld.  Women were seen as having been the one responsible for the marriage falling apart.  The woman did not perform her duties well enough, keep herself up enough or other various rationales.  Marital rape was not recognized as even possible at one time and domestic violence was nearly without prosecution.  Which also ties into the divorce problem brought up in the original post.  Divorce in the 1970s did skyrocket to around where that rate now rests, about 40-50%.  At the time before the 1970s a divorce could only be granted for cruelty in the marriage or adultery.  If marital rape is not an option and domestic violence is largely ignored there is little chance of being granted divorce for the former and the latter is even more difficult to prove.  During the 1970s a “no fault” divorce was recognized as an option which allowed both parties to sue for divorce regardless of a provable reason.  Keep in mind how long a “no fault” divorce took to earn through all the feminists movements prior.

So now both the man and women that are unhappily married can sue for divorce without much reason to fear denial.  Keep in mind this applies to both sexes.

Fashion is an interesting approach to take in regard to a display of women being constrained.  Traditionally the concept of women purchasing, participating in and being interested in fashion is the hallmark of a liberal and independent woman (I mean liberal as in free of thought, not a political mindset).  This can be seen in the modern day Middle East as women experiment with fashion while at the same time still donning culturally appropriate clothing.  Feminists have pushed an agenda in the past regarding fashion and some sects of feminism do push for a very “gender neutral” style.  I do not see this as necessarily because this also pushes for women to be comfortable in their own skin and dress.  What causes most young women and in truth women of all ages depression are issues of body image.  Breast size, hip size, shape of the lips, skin tone and texture, etc. etc. are all issues women wrestle with that causes depression.  While a woman might be depressed she can’t fit into a size 2 dress, she is depressed because she cannot fit into the dress not because of the dress.

The fashion industry and those that are behind the body image cultivation are to blame for much of this depression.  A woman that is comfortable and feeling independent wears clothing that expresses themselves and often times is more revealing of their body.  Modern fashion in the United States points toward women feeling more liberated and free, not less.  This is because a woman wants to draw attention to themselves, wants to make their presence known and look appealing to others.  Often times these things are constrained in traditionally patriarchal societies.  So fashion and dress are hallmarks of feeling independent, not constraint.

The debate over equality presented seems to be one regarding Affirmative Action.  Companies and jobs that are traditionally male dominated and desire to remain that way have to be forced to accept women.  There is little point in fighting for women to be free in the workplace if the people running the workplace are not willing to allow women to work there.  Women are still vastly underrepresented in many fields despite being the largest group in school.  Sometimes the legal system needs to step into the field in order to ensure that a level playing field is being had.

Now onto the two areas kept separate from the initial post.

Sex does sell.  This is a true statement in advertising and one proven many times over.  A woman in a bikini holding a can of soda sells the soda.  That does not make the statement “not sexist” just because it’s true.  The poster with the woman on the front holding the can of soda draws the eye.  A person spends their time admiring the woman and then associates that feeling of desire with the soda because that is how the brain works.  Naked woman  leads to sexual desire, sexual desire leads to stimulation, image of soda being held associated with stimulation, more incentive to buy the can of soda.   Advertising pays very well for a reason.

Also, they are not ignorant of how gamers think.  If gamers did judge a game purely on quality over advertising then so much wouldn’t be spent on advertising and marketing.  Look at television commercial and magazine advertising for games.  The graphics of the game are often not even show cased.  Instead the commercial shows computer generated images that display a scene, play music in the background that may not even be in the game and give a possible glimpse of the story.  This tactic was employed by Blizzard for many of their initial successes and is reproduced now by almost every major game company.  Were gamers to solely base their purchase off content then reviews would be waited on and games would come in black boxes with only the title.  Commercials would show the actual game play instead of stylized versions of actors.  Hype is a massive thing generated by marketing and advertising that drives the sale of games.  Considering how much money is now generated by video game companies, I would say it’s working. 

Sidenote:  You are wrong about breast and hips.  That is a cultural thing, not necessarily biological and universal.  Studies are showing facial features (such as facial symmetry) and skin conditions are more of a sexual attraction.  Oddly enough there is more commonality among women about physical attractiveness than among men.

Women do not dress sexually to attract a man.  Women dress sexy and revealing to give off confidence which does attract men.  Yes, there are times when the attention of a certain man is desirable and a woman will dress to impress.  More often than not, except on those special occasions, a woman dresses in such a way to make themselves feel better.  My favorite jeans are my favorite because I like the way my body looks in them.  I prefer certain cuts in my tops to others because of how my breasts look in them.  I prefer certain styles over others because of how beautiful and confident I feel wearing those clothes as opposed to others.  Put another way.  Men that have money and feel confident in their bodies do the same.  More expensive shirts are bought that show off different aspects of the person, better jeans purchased for the same and nicer shoes.  Confidence is gained by looking in the mirror and feeling good about the clothes worn and the image presented.  Confidence is attractive.

Once more courting rituals are a cultural thing and not a reflection of biology.

The second part I will have to get into later. 

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 06:27:15 AM »
Ignorant, yes. But not wrong. Lets get a few facts in; First, most gamers are male. Second, most gamers are also in a sexually high point of their lives. Powerful men and sexualized men are attractive to them because they ether get a rush from the women or like pretending they are the men. It's a primal part of how we function and it won't change. Now, they are ignorant in that most gamers look past the cover art and find what appeals to us inside the game. However, this does speak to how feminists want to change how women are portrayed in the culture into something that isn't true like trying to make Wonder Woman not wear her trademark one-piece.

Most gamers are not male, and the misrepresentation this statement permits is damaging in an already-sexist gaming industry. Women are between 45 and 50% of the market. Perhaps I'm taking this the wrong way, but kindly spend some time browsing #1reasonwhy to see why people might want the media perception of women changed, especially in the gaming industry.

Or, if the tweets are too confusing (as tweet feeds can sometimes be), just Google the crap Anna Sarkeesian has had to put up with because of her legitimate gripes with how women in video games are portrayed.

There is a problem, and a big one, especially in this industry, with the way women are portrayed. Saying "most gamers are horny men" doesn't excuse any of it.

Offline Lilias

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 06:53:12 AM »
I think the problem is in the very title of this thread.

No ideology will ever make happiness fall, ready formed, in anyone's lap. Feminism just allows women to work at their own happiness, like any human being should.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 07:01:24 AM »
The problem with "traditional households" is that it has expectition of everyone fitting into tiny boxes. And that simply isn't true. Some women want to have careers or don't want to settle down and have children. Without gender equality we don't have opportunity to choose live outside those boxes when they don't fit us.

Becouse thats what sexism is: putting people into tiny boxes based on their sex. Women are kind and nuturing and are expected to take care of household while men men are strong and though and bring food home. How on earth could this bring happiness to a woman who isn't nuturing in the slightest and wants to spend her life researching physics? Or to kind soft man who loves working with children and teach them while watching them grow?

Gender equality is about choices. About freedom to choose living outside that tiny box the traditional views of gender tells you you should fit in.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 07:03:25 AM »
Feminism for one is about equality of both men and women.  A feminist is someone that looks for equality for both men and women in all aspects of life.  That truth does become lost amidst the glaring spectacle of media but that is the simple truth of the word feminism.  The movement began not just to uplift women but to also bring about awareness in men about not only the plight of women but also of their own restrictions.  Feminism has certainly expanded the notion of men as fathers in the lives of their children, as care givers in their roles as nurses and teachers and in their roles as important members of a child’s life with paternity leave.  So please do not paint feminism as a movement that is solely focused on women.

Personally, I disagree with this, Pumpkin Seeds. There are various branch of feminism - and I can tell you that the feminism I'm familiar with is definitely anti-male. I mean, one of the leading feminists in my country voiced an opinion that women are better suited for ruling than men, as women are naturally altruistic and men are egoists. If that a pro-equality, men-respecting statement, then I'm an ostrich  >:(

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 07:12:43 AM »
Personally, I disagree with this, Pumpkin Seeds. There are various branch of feminism - and I can tell you that the feminism I'm familiar with is definitely anti-male. I mean, one of the leading feminists in my country voiced an opinion that women are better suited for ruling than men, as women are naturally altruistic and men are egoists. If that a pro-equality, men-respecting statement, then I'm an ostrich  >:(

Could it be that you are familiar with that branch of feminism (often known as radical feminism and from what I have seen, mostly ignored by the rest) is because outrageous statements get more attention? And they sell better aswell so the news outlets are more likely to focus on them? And that those who oppose fenimisn keep bringing up these fringe elements as if they represented all feminists.

(Relevant video: #6 The Straw Feminist (Tropes vs. Women) I thoroughly recommend this channel, especially those who say that fenimisn is no longer needed should read the abuse Sarkeesian went through)

Radical feminists are to feminism what Westboro is to Christianity.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 07:16:48 AM »
Personally, I disagree with this, Pumpkin Seeds. There are various branch of feminism - and I can tell you that the feminism I'm familiar with is definitely anti-male. I mean, one of the leading feminists in my country voiced an opinion that women are better suited for ruling than men, as women are naturally altruistic and men are egoists. If that a pro-equality, men-respecting statement, then I'm an ostrich  >:(

While there are various branches of feminism, the core tenets of the movement are espoused quite correctly by Pumpkin Seeds.  It is not without its faults however as evident by those people who are anti-male (and thus sexist) who identify themselves as feminists.  But these people are NOT feminists; they label themselves this and give forth an agenda of anti-progressive rhetoric under the guise of feminism.  I would hardly give these people any creditability or consider them feminists in any regard.  Those who follow the idea of feminism see it as a means of equality, not a means of oppression or exclusion. 

Otherwise, I find nothing but false sentiments and conclusions posted by the OP in this thread.  No disrespect but I suggest you do a bit more research into feminism instead of drawing conclusions based on assumptions and what values it subscribes to.  Not everyone is going to fit into your definition of the "traditional family" or what role women should play. Pumpkin Seeds and the others hit all my own points against it rather nicely. 

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 08:08:45 AM »
Guys, the woman I mentioned is not some nutty radical who's ignored by all other feminists. She's genuinely one of the leading voices in my country's feminist circles and she has a weekly column in our main liberal newspaper. I get that there are other feminists out there - but don't delude yourself into thinking that misoandrist sentiments in feminism come only from nutters. Sorry, it's not that simple - at least back here.

I will tell you this: years ago, I was very sympathetic to feminist cause. It really seemed simple to me: I am pro-equality, so it seemed natural that I should side with feminists. But then, after years of listening to feminists and participating in a feminist Internet forum, I eventually ran away screaming, as I couldn't take the hate and the one-sidedness anymore.

Again, it may be the matter of my country's brand of feminism - still, that's my experience.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 08:25:30 AM »
Guys, the woman I mentioned is not some nutty radical who's ignored by all other feminists. She's genuinely one of the leading voices in my country's feminist circles and she has a weekly column in our main liberal newspaper. I get that there are other feminists out there - but don't delude yourself into thinking that misoandrist sentiments in feminism come only from nutters. Sorry, it's not that simple - at least back here.

As I said, radical statements sell, so of course mainstream media focuses on those.

Quote
I will tell you this: years ago, I was very sympathetic to feminist cause. It really seemed simple to me: I am pro-equality, so it seemed natural that I should side with feminists. But then, after years of listening to feminists and participating in a feminist Internet forum, I eventually ran away screaming, as I couldn't take the hate and the one-sidedness anymore.

Again, it may be the matter of my country's brand of feminism - still, that's my experience.

My experience has been completely different, and I'm part of minority that is hated by the radical feminists. I don't think the voice of more moderate feminists should be ignored just because of the bad apples are more visible.

Offline BlackestKnight

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 08:28:00 AM »
I don't know how I feel about this topic. While I won't go as far as to dismiss feminism and call it superfluous movement, from a mans point of view I can see why a lot of dudes are frustrated. It seems like there were more security and commitment in the good ol' days, but that's only because women were financially dependent on men and whatever he said she had to go along with it. Relationships are definitely harder now, no doubt. While I wouldn't advocate that men go out here and kill to establish themselves professionally only to give their non- contributing spouses equal or primary share of their fortunes , that would be stupid and women who expect  their man to  adhere to traditional standards while she adheres to whatever standard is conveniently beneficially to her interests, without committing to any expectations that would naturally go along with that. Know that you are the reason why men are reluctant to marry women. Committed relationships aren't about being free and independent and doing what you want under someones elses dime.

Me personally I don't think I'll ever get married because I don't think people value commitment itself anymore. Partially feminism,  partially other reasons. There really is no reason for a man to get married in the current system we're under unless he's doing so to secure his own needs whatever they may be, but why get the milk when you can get the cow?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:31:00 AM by BlackestKnight »

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 08:30:52 AM »
As I said, radical statements sell, so of course mainstream media focuses on those.

My experience has been completely different, and I'm part of minority that is hated by the radical feminists. I don't think the voice of more moderate feminists should be ignored just because of the bad apples are more visible.

+1.  Just because you have had a bad experience with it doesn't mean the feminism doesn't work or what this radical woman is espousing is really feminism. 

I don't know how I feel about this topic. While I won't go as far as to dismiss feminism and call it superfluous movement, from a mans point of view I can see why a lot of dudes are frustrated. It seems like there were more security and commitment in the good ol' days, but that's only because women were financially dependent on men and whatever he said she had to go along with it. Relationships are definitely harder now, no doubt. While I wouldn't advocate that men go out here and kill to establish themselves professionally only to give their non- contributing spouses equal or primary share of their fortunes , that would be stupid and women who expect  their man to do adhere to traditional standards while she adheres to whatever standard is conveniently beneficially to her interests, without committing to any expectations that would naturally go along with that. Know that you are the reason why men are reluctant to marry women. Committed relationships aren't about being free and independent and doing what you want under someones elses dime.

Me personally I don't think I'll ever get married because I don't think people value commitment itself anymore. Partially feminism,  partially other reasons. There really is no reason for a man to get married in the current system we're under unless he's doing so to secure his own needs whatever they may be, but why get the milk when you can get the cow?

Wait, what?  Marriage isn't just about "securing your own needs"; the whole mentality around marriage should be anything but.  Call me a romantic or what have you but people do value commitment just as much as they did in the past.  Generalizations do nothing but add to broad stereotypes and give the wrong idea of something.  You may see no value in it but that does not mean that commitment is dead or that feminism is frustrating to all men.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 08:34:20 AM »
Quote from: ofDelusions
As I said, radical statements sell, so of course mainstream media focuses on those.

Sorry, it's more than that. As I mentioned, the lady has a weekly column in a major liberal newspaper - a newspaper that is definitely pro-feminism and pro-LGBT. So, the woman isn't there just because she sells - it's because she's genuinely believed to be a feminist leader.

It's not only a case of a bad apple being more visible. As I said, things may be different in your country - back here, that's what feminism is like.

Offline Moraline

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 08:34:50 AM »
Guys, the woman I mentioned is not some nutty radical who's ignored by all other feminists. She's genuinely one of the leading voices in my country's feminist circles and she has a weekly column in our main liberal newspaper. I get that there are other feminists out there - but don't delude yourself into thinking that misoandrist sentiments in feminism come only from nutters. Sorry, it's not that simple - at least back here.

I will tell you this: years ago, I was very sympathetic to feminist cause. It really seemed simple to me: I am pro-equality, so it seemed natural that I should side with feminists. But then, after years of listening to feminists and participating in a feminist Internet forum, I eventually ran away screaming, as I couldn't take the hate and the one-sidedness anymore.

Again, it may be the matter of my country's brand of feminism - still, that's my experience.
I have to largely agree with Beorning. The Feminist movement is out of touch with reality and is generally defined with this sentiment of "equality for all - especially women." Which isn't really equality. The Feminist Movement is about 50 years out of date and the extremism that's often vocalized by the leadership within the movement is disappointingly and more harmful then half of the stuff that they think they are fighting against.

Now with that said, I can say that the original poster is extremely misguided in many of his assumptions so most of what was said against his post is also correct.

I prefer to not support any of these one sided causes. The world should in my opinion be following a more idealized and true "Equality for All" format with no appendages to that sentiment.

I don't know. I'm not really a brain on this stuff at all. However, I know what I like, I know what I've experienced, and I've rarely if ever been mistreated or looked down on because I am a woman. Maybe we are just more equal here where I live.  ... That's been my personal experience. (East Coast - Canada)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:35:55 AM by Moraline »

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 08:39:28 AM »
Quote from: Silverfyre
+1.  Just because you have had a bad experience with it doesn't mean the feminism doesn't work or what this radical woman is espousing is really feminism. 

Guys, come on. She's not a *radical*. Not here.

I've been on a feminist message board for years. No participant ever called this woman a radical or criticised her for not being a real feminist!

Why don't you believe me? Just because it doesn't sit well with your view that real feminism is always nice and sensible?

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 08:46:32 AM »
No, feminism is not all "nice and sensible" to me.  It's about equality between all genders and giving women an equal place in society; there is nothing fluffy about the struggle to do as such even if the ideal is, for some reason, considered lofty by society at large.  The way you have presented this woman in your own context would make her considered radical by those who subscribe to the brand of feminism that I have been talking about.  That's why I am labeling her as such. 

So yes, in my own interpretation and experiences with feminism, she would be someone who is labeled "radical".  Your mileage and labeling of her may vary so take that as you will. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:48:30 AM by Silverfyre »

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 08:49:42 AM »
Guys, come on. She's not a *radical*. Not here.



The view that women should rule and that patriarchy is source of all evil is what radical feminism means. So if she espouses these views, doesn't that make her radical feminists.

Where I live, I have seen actual feminists bashed much more based on what mainstream believes feminism to be than I have seen anyone voice actual radical feminist views.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 08:53:28 AM »
Quote from: Silverfyre
No, feminism is not all "nice and sensible" to me.  It's about equality between all genders and giving women an equal place in society; there is nothing fluffy about the struggle to do as such even if the ideal is, for some reason, considered lofty by society at large.  The way you have presented this woman in your own context would make her considered radical by those who subscribe to the brand of feminism that I have been talking about.  That's why I am labeling her as such.

The problem is, not all feminists subscribe to the notion of feminism you seem to believe in. That doesn't make their feminism any less "real" than yours.

Let me reiterate this: I've been discussing feminism on the Internet for years. At least once, I pointed out that lady's views to women who called themselves feminists. I don't think I recall *any* of them saying that her opinions were wrong, bigoted or radical. Not all feminists seemed to share them, but none of them actually bothered to criticise them.

Google "Magdalena Środa", guys. Believe me, if you came over here and tried to convince *anyone* that she's not a real feminist, you'd get laughed at. Especially by feminists themselves.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 08:55:51 AM »
The view that women should rule and that patriarchy is source of all evil is what radical feminism means. So if she espouses these views, doesn't that make her radical feminists.

No, if most of the other feminist either subscribe to the same views, or at least find them acceptable.

What this woman says might considered radical and nutty back where you live. Back *here*, it seems to be accepted among our feminist circles.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 08:58:06 AM »
May I ask a question here in all this talk about women being happy and our future, what about boys and men they seem to be losing out their own identities as males in all this.

Seriously I see issues with K-12 education becoming more feminized leaving out how boys and young men learn and mature, in colleges women are getting more degrees than men and going on to further education or getting better chances and good jobs where mens labor is losing out. Many men they are hands-on workers some go to college but it seems to me more are inclined to labor (factory work, trades like construction or just honest sweaty back work) and those jobs are going. The skilled factory work requiring a degree is going to women more and more. And even in the home there are issues if a man cannot be a good provider or bring something to the table women won't likley choose them as a companion. With more men than women an issue. A college educated woman is less likely to want to be with a mechanic or a factory worker or a hard working laborer as a wife if she is making more money and therefore is above them. Men on the other hand have few issues marrying someone "beneath them" on the same scale a woman who worked in an office was not undesireable due to her work.

Can women be happy when men slowly become unhappy, what are feminists doing to help men in this transition to a economy and system favoring them it seems in the long run?

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 09:00:39 AM »
I googled her, but only English page I found was the wikipedia page and only things mentioned in that that related to Feminism was about she spoke about the Violence against women and more liberal abortion laws. Both of which look sane to me.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 09:03:48 AM »
I googled her, but only English page I found was the wikipedia page and only things mentioned in that that related to Feminism was about she spoke about the Violence against women and more liberal abortion laws. Both of which look sane to me.

Yeah, I know. The Wikipedia page doesn't present some other of her views, which include her rabid dislike for football / soccer and her notion that political parties who are in favour of death penalty should be banned (I mean, I'm against death penalty myself, but WTF?)...

Anyway, believe me: if you came over here and claimed that Magdalena Środa is not a real feminist, you'd just make a fool out of yourself. She is one of leading feminists here, no-one disputes that.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:05:49 AM by Beorning »

Offline BlackestKnight

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 09:12:22 AM »
+1.  Just because you have had a bad experience with it doesn't mean the feminism doesn't work or what this radical woman is espousing is really feminism. 

Wait, what?  Marriage isn't just about "securing your own needs"; the whole mentality around marriage should be anything but.  Call me a romantic or what have you but people do value commitment just as much as they did in the past.  Generalizations do nothing but add to broad stereotypes and give the wrong idea of something.  You may see no value in it but that does not mean that commitment is dead or that feminism is frustrating to all men.

Your brand of romantic idealism doesn't change the fact the people often do marry for selfish reasons. I have no problem with this as long as people know what they're signing up for. I look at marriage from a pragmatic business mind because when I'm in the court of law. The judge doesn't take half my character as reimbursement in the proceedings, they don't take half of my love, my good name or anything like that. That tells me all I need to know about marriage as an institution. I'm not shitting on married people, I'm just saying that marriage itself offers nothing for me that I can't get out of a co-habitating relationship and I definitely don't support blood diamonds so it's a title, nothing more. I don't need the government or church to validate my relationship.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:16:54 AM by BlackestKnight »

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 09:13:51 AM »
Your brand of romantic idealism doesn't change the fact the people often do marry for selfish reasons. I have no problem with this as long as people know what they're signing up for. I look at marriage from a pragmatic business mind because when I'm in the court of law. The judge doesn't take half my character as reimbursement in the proceedings, they don't take half my good name or anything like that. That tells me all I need to know about marriage as an institution. I'm not shitting on married people, I'm just saying that marriage itself offers nothing for me that I can't get out of a co-habitating relationship and I definitely don't support blood diamonds so it's a title, nothing more. I don't need the government or church to validate my relationship.

Fair enough.  I see what you are saying then.  Thank you for clarifying. 

The problem is, not all feminists subscribe to the notion of feminism you seem to believe in. That doesn't make their feminism any less "real" than yours.

Let me reiterate this: I've been discussing feminism on the Internet for years. At least once, I pointed out that lady's views to women who called themselves feminists. I don't think I recall *any* of them saying that her opinions were wrong, bigoted or radical. Not all feminists seemed to share them, but none of them actually bothered to criticise them.

Google "Magdalena Środa", guys. Believe me, if you came over here and tried to convince *anyone* that she's not a real feminist, you'd get laughed at. Especially by feminists themselves.

You keep saying you have been on the internet discussing feminism for years as though it is what gives you this incredible validity into the whole ideal; good for you.  I'm glad you are discussing it but the subjectiveness of such forums and discussions does not make you or any one else the "be all, end all" in defining feminism.  I apply that same mode of thought and judgment towards my own opinions, of course. 

As far as my own credibility goes for using such an approach, I have a minor in Women's Studies and have spent several years in undergraduate level course work studying feminism as both a literary and social movement.  That hardly qualifies me as an expert but I did feel it worth mentioning that I am not just speaking out of some tentative intellectual grasp of the subject.

I define feminism and use it in the context presented here in the textbook manner; I am using what most scholars of feminism define it as. The definition, in its basic form, is this:

The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

If this person is calling for the elevation of women over men, then yes by this definition, she is a radical and not necessarily a feminist.

So view it how you want and through your country's lens; I don't pretend to know what it is like to live in your nation or see things through your eyes.  However, from the way you describe this woman and using the textbook definition of feminism as it has been presented to me, I would see her views as radical.

I will definitely do my own research into it however, so thank you for the name.

May I ask a question here in all this talk about women being happy and our future, what about boys and men they seem to be losing out their own identities as males in all this.

Seriously I see issues with K-12 education becoming more feminized leaving out how boys and young men learn and mature, in colleges women are getting more degrees than men and going on to further education or getting better chances and good jobs where mens labor is losing out. Many men they are hands-on workers some go to college but it seems to me more are inclined to labor (factory work, trades like construction or just honest sweaty back work) and those jobs are going. The skilled factory work requiring a degree is going to women more and more. And even in the home there are issues if a man cannot be a good provider or bring something to the table women won't likley choose them as a companion. With more men than women an issue. A college educated woman is less likely to want to be with a mechanic or a factory worker or a hard working laborer as a wife if she is making more money and therefore is above them. Men on the other hand have few issues marrying someone "beneath them" on the same scale a woman who worked in an office was not undesireable due to her work.

Can women be happy when men slowly become unhappy, what are feminists doing to help men in this transition to a economy and system favoring them it seems in the long run?

Any statistical data to support these conclusions?  Any sort of social or economical research that shows this as been as you stated?  To me, this sounds like a great deal of speculation and what has been called "bro-nism"; a ideology in which people, usually men, vocalize against feminism because they feel as though women are overthrowing all male interests and feminizing everything to the point of destroying masculinity in all its forms and values.  Not only is this idea ridiculous in its implications based solely on the fact that feminism has yet to really achieve its own goal of equality let alone destabilizing the patriarchy but it has no statistical or sociological data behind it.  It sounds like a great deal of "the sky is falling!" mentality rather than anything logical or supported by rationality.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 09:35:50 AM »
Dude.

Feminism has never been, is not, and will never be about men. No more than supporting gay rights is about straight people. No more than the civil rights movement in the US is about whites. Men are part of the ideology and movement surrounding it (fantastic), men are affected by the ideology (happens), but men are a tangential thing. At its core, feminism is about improving the opportunities, livelihoods, and access for women to the ability to do that whole 'pursuit of happiness' thing.

People who try to make it about men a) are confused, b) have an agenda, or c) banana.

That is where I stand on it, anyway.