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Author Topic: Will feminism really bring women happiness?  (Read 9185 times)

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Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2013, 02:50:43 PM »
Ah! But, if it's allowed for a woman to be really in charge of the household, why the insistence that the man should be the "head"? Isn't it better to say that the smarter person should be the "head"?

And what about situation, when the man doesn't want to listen to his smarter wife and give up the power? Should the wife obey him, according to the traditional model? If so, why?

I was working on the assumption we were speaking of finances.

No one person is smarter on all subjects in another. In your scenario, though the wife might know more about handling money, the husband knows how to cook or how to maintain and upkeep the house and cars. Thus, he would make the decisions on those while taking in anything the wife might have to say about them just like the wife would take in what the husband would say on the finances.

The second situation is covered. If ether a wife or a husband fails in their duties, they are allowed to divorce if there is no other recourse to be found.

I've been married for ten years. Requiem and I have equal voices as a whole, and individual responsibilities. As he is a stay-at-home father, I usually defer to him in regards to grocery needs and household chore schedules, as he is the one who is home taking care of it. As I am the one who has employment and manages the budget, he defers to my need to know what expenditures the households needs. Were I a stay-at-home mother, and he the working father, the roles would be reversed.

When these were written, it is was true that men where usually the ones who did most of the work. If the man owned his own business, then the wife would work along side him. Otherwise, she would tend to the home or help in some other manner. In this more modern era where it is much more easy for a wife to work and it isn't seen so much as an obligation for the husband to work, then that can just as easily be reversed so long as the duties that can be reversed are reversed. I don't see any reason why it can't be done.

@Caeli:

My statements about women dressing sexy to garner attention was built from my personal experience. Around the house, my own mom wouldn't dress in any such way. Even when we made quick grocery stops. However, when there was any situation where she would be around men she'd want to date, she would dress in her best dresses and heels and did her best to excentuate her body. I spoke to her and she flat out admitted to doing it to gain their attention.

Until I see a woman dress in a sexy manner for just being around the house, then I won't buy that a woman does it for her own confidence.

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2013, 02:56:39 PM »
Until I see a woman dress in a sexy manner for just being around the house, then I won't buy that a woman does it for her own confidence.
I have some pretty and sexy lingerie that I wear at home because it makes me feel feminine and lovely.  No man has ever seen it.  :-)

Offline Caeli

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2013, 03:03:14 PM »
Until I see a woman dress in a sexy manner for just being around the house, then I won't buy that a woman does it for her own confidence.

Welp, you're in luck - both BeMi and I dress in pretty and sexy lingerie at home that nobody but us know we have on and that only we have seen.

I'll wear cute underwear and sexy lingerie underneath my work clothes (jeans and a sweatshirt/t-shirt, pretty standard for IT and what I do), and it's not like I tell everybody at work what I'm wearing for their attention. It's something for myself, not for anybody else.

Even when I dress up to look pretty, and even for a date - that is for my own confidence factor, not so much my SO's appreciation. I know I stand taller, have better posture, smile more often, and am generally in a better mood when I know I look great. Men can appreciate confidence in a woman, whether that's something constructed from the way they dress, or whether it's an inherent part of them.

As a side note, the SO has told me that he appreciates the confidence I have when I dress nicely/sexy, not so much the clothing as it looks on me.



Note that I was going to add before I got called away:

There's a world of difference between dressing to look attractive, and dressing to look attractive for a man. I'm not saying that there aren't women who do the latter, because there are certainly situations in my own life that would qualify under both categories, but there's a lot more to it than "I'm dressing sexy because I want a man to look at me."
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 03:13:06 PM by Caeli »

Offline Lilias

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2013, 03:13:32 PM »
Until I see a woman dress in a sexy manner for just being around the house, then I won't buy that a woman does it for her own confidence.

I used to wear my best lingerie under my work uniform. Nobody ever saw the stuff, but the fact it was there made a huge difference to my head (which was noticed).

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »
Firstly, and with respect, I don't think a man has any place commenting on feminism because he cannot understand it.  You can study it, you can read up on issues that effect woman, and you can make your own assumptions (this threads male assumptions are typical male assumptions, but I've seen pro-feminist males before) but you have no perspective. 

As a woman who feels feminism is important but often fights the wrong fights, I'm really frustrated when I see guys even approach the issue in all honesty, because you don't understand.  It's also frustrating that these topics always seem to move onto the subject of lingerie.  It's quite offensive to be honest.

Regarding the original question, will feminism bring woman happiness?  Well it already has.  The BIG question is, is feminism still needed?  And simply put it is.

For instance, lets say we are both interested in an accounting job, and the rate is 20k PA.  In the past, before feminism, originally I wouldn't be allowed to apply.  Then I would have been allowed to apply but my rate would be 18k PA, and it likely would be a female only role.  Now today, I can apply, so you can, the best interview wins, and if it was me, I would get 20k PA.

The problem today comes when we apply for a promotion, or it is time for a raise.  There is very little legal legislature that can force that we are treat equally at work.  Being promoted to head accountant likely requires an interview and agreeing salary, which in theory is meant to be based on performance.  Recent surveys have clearly showed that women in top jobs get paid less than their male counterparts in very large percentages.  This is due mostly to old fashioned ideals that men should be paid more, or it's easier to get the woman to accept less.  It can never be proven as sexism, but are the majority of females worse at their jobs than males?  I don't think so.

Feminism's goal is and always has been equality.  This is just one genre I have touched on, but equality has not been reached.  Will guaranteeing I get paid exactly the same, or more than a man if I'm worth it make me happy?  Yes.  As will many other goals of the feminist movement.


Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2013, 03:28:38 PM »
@At the three women who proved me wrong:

I would normally say that the burden of proof lies on you, but.. I doubt that someone would lie in such a casual setting. I retract my earlier statements in light of this new evidence.

Now, we have been talking a lot on the female half of the ideal family according to this philosophy. What about the male half? Would it be too much to ask that if a man fulfilled all his duties, (all 7 of them) that he be the head of the household? Just to serve as a reminder, they were:

  • To love his wife
  • To admire his wife
  • To separate from his parents
  • To be joined to his wife
  • To be transparent in the relationship with his wife
  • To be the head of woman
(Remember, this context means that the man takes care of, protects and sacrifices for his wife)
  • To show honor to his wife

Is there any of these that a woman wouldn't want her husband to do for her?

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2013, 03:38:04 PM »
For a new member hoping to join the site you may wish to stay away from comments that can be perceived as sexist or misogynistic.

As for "is there any of these a woman..."? it is a ridiculous question.  My friend may want love and affection and I may not want marriage full stop and I certainly wouldnt need a man to "be head of woman". 

You cannot generalize an entire sex into "all of you think this".  It also has little to do with the topic, which was feminism, and which despite your opening claims of how you were qualified to talk about it, you showed a complete lack of understanding or compassion towards.  In fact I doubt this is research, just yet another sexist opinion from a sexist man who believe women should be under his feet and dress for men.  Almost all of the "facts" your provided as gospel in your opening post are actually wrong.  Effective feminism would be about stopping girl gamers being harrassed for being female, not about covers and artwork, and that in turn would make those women happy, whether they knew it had been influenced by feminism or not. 

I don't mean to be rude, but I find this whole thread a bit sexist and offensive.  As trieste says, feminism has NEVER been about men, and you are ridiculously missing the point which is to defend us from injustice related to being born a female instead of a male, and there are plenty of injustices left to resolve and viewpoints to change or push into the wilderness where they belong.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:05:57 PM by Brittany »

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2013, 03:43:06 PM »
@At the three women who proved me wrong:

I would normally say that the burden of proof lies on you, but.. I doubt that someone would lie in such a casual setting. I retract my earlier statements in light of this new evidence.

Now, we have been talking a lot on the female half of the ideal family according to this philosophy. What about the male half? Would it be too much to ask that if a man fulfilled all his duties, (all 7 of them) that he be the head of the household? Just to serve as a reminder, they were:

  • To love his wife
  • To admire his wife
  • To separate from his parents
  • To be joined to his wife
  • To be transparent in the relationship with his wife
  • To be the head of woman
(Remember, this context means that the man takes care of, protects and sacrifices for his wife)
  • To show honor to his wife

Is there any of these that a woman wouldn't want her husband to do for her?

Yes. Because a good few women don't have husbands. They have wives, or partners, or boyfriends, or roommates in a FWB relationship. Your fallacy is that you're still regarding a woman as single-paired to a man. What of those of us with multiple partners? What of single women who are quite happy to be that way?

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2013, 03:46:03 PM »
And I still don't get what "being the head of the woman" means...

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2013, 03:48:45 PM »
And I still don't get what "being the head of the woman" means...

In the context he admits he looked to, the Bible, being the head of the woman means that the man is the head of the household and his word is unto law. He can try and say "protect and take care of and sacrifice for", but that's a prettied-up, sanitized version of saying the woman is subservient to the man and needs to be taken care of and protected.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2013, 04:05:41 PM »
@At the three women who proved me wrong:

I would normally say that the burden of proof lies on you, but.. I doubt that someone would lie in such a casual setting. I retract my earlier statements in light of this new evidence.

Now, we have been talking a lot on the female half of the ideal family according to this philosophy. What about the male half? Would it be too much to ask that if a man fulfilled all his duties, (all 7 of them) that he be the head of the household? Just to serve as a reminder, they were:

  • To love his wife
  • To admire his wife
  • To separate from his parents
  • To be joined to his wife
  • To be transparent in the relationship with his wife
  • To be the head of woman
(Remember, this context means that the man takes care of, protects and sacrifices for his wife)
  • To show honor to his wife

Is there any of these that a woman wouldn't want her husband to do for her?

Many wouldn't want a husband in the first place. Which is why traditional family model fails. It expects everyone to fit this one model. I for one, don't want a husband.

Of course the last two are what not all would like. Not every man is stronger than his wive. Not every woman is softer or more nurturing than her husband. Any system that is too inflexible to deal with these fails.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2013, 04:19:03 PM »
For a new member hoping to join the site you may wish to stay away from comments that can be perceived as sexist or misogynistic.

As for "is there any of these a woman..."? it is a ridiculous question.  My friend may want love and affection and I may not want marriage full stop and I certainly wouldnt need a man to "be head of woman". 

You cannot generalize an entire sex into "all of you think this".  It also has little to do with the topic, which was feminism, and which despite your opening claims of how you were qualified to talk about it, you showed a complete lack of understanding or compassion towards.  In fact I doubt this is research, just yet another sexist opinion from a sexist man who believe women should be under his feet and dress for men.  Almost all of the "facts" your provided as gospel in your opening post are actually wrong.  Effective feminism would be about stopping girl gamers being harrassed for being female, not about covers and artwork, and that in turn would make those women happy, whether they knew it had been influenced by feminism or not. 

I don't mean to be rude, but I find this whole thread a bit sexist and offensive.  As trieste says, feminism has NEVER been about men, and you are ridiculously missing the point which is to defend us from injustice related to being born a female instead of a male, and there are plenty of injustices left to resolve and viewpoints to change or push into the wilderness where they belong.

As a member with more than three years under your belt you know that Elliquiy is a site where members are encouraged to speak their mind as long as it is done in a respectful manner when discussing remarks of other posters in a thread.

We also like to show our newest members a welcoming and friendly attitude.

When you disagree with anyone or anything please show the respect and civility you expect from others.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:20:36 PM by Beguile's Mistress »

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 04:45:27 PM »
In the context he admits he looked to, the Bible, being the head of the woman means that the man is the head of the household and his word is unto law. He can try and say "protect and take care of and sacrifice for", but that's a prettied-up, sanitized version of saying the woman is subservient to the man and needs to be taken care of and protected.
There is no evidence of the bolded statements.

I got these seven directly from the source, this one comes from various sources, but directly from this:
Quote
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:3)


A cynical look at this makes it seem like woman is lower than man. This is untrue. When Christ came, He elevated women from their lower standing in society. This is seen in EPHESIANS Chapter 5 22:33

Quote
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 ďFor this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.Ē[c] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Yet again, we see women get the shorter of the instructions. The largest burden is always played on the males. It is the husband's duty to see that the wife is provided with all the means to be cleaned physicly, to be healthy in both body in mind, to be well fed and well clothed and has the accessories that they desire. How this is done depends on the household in question. And if any of these fail to occur, it is the fault of the husband.

This is another effect of being the head of the household, it is his duty to make sure the family has everything it needs (again, how that is done is up to the family) and should the family not have everything it needs, it is the fault of the husband for he is the head.

Now to put away the horrific images some might be having of these sorts of households, remember that it puts in order: God is above Christ, Christ is above the Husband. When the Husband submits to Christ, he acts Christly himself. So he would act Christly to his wife. The moment a husband stops acting Christly, then he fails in his duties and they can not be resolved, the wife has full grounds to divorce him for abuse. This is often the case when we look at Biblical records. It is found that women often went to temples and churches to seek refuge until the issue is resolved or the divorce is finalized.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 04:51:17 PM »
The OP has asked a question about happiness and whether feminism will result in such a state for women.

Please keep on topic.  If you wish to discuss something else please take that to a new thread so we don't derail the theme here. 

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2013, 04:59:33 PM »
Okay, I have a question to Monfang: let's compare this traditional family model and the partnership / feminist model. What would the most important differences be?

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2013, 05:05:12 PM »
Okay, I have a question to Monfang: let's compare this traditional family model and the partnership / feminist model. What would the most important differences be?
I would have to see what the partnership/feminist model states is the duties of the Husband and Wife. I haven't actually seen them put it to paper.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2013, 05:14:56 PM »
I would have to see what the partnership/feminist model states is the duties of the Husband and Wife. I haven't actually seen them put it to paper.

Are there any online sources you can link us to that support your postulations?

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2013, 05:15:32 PM »
Let me put it the other way, then: does the traditional model allow for wives to have careers etc.?

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2013, 05:41:18 PM »
Firstly, and with respect, I don't think a man has any place commenting on feminism because he cannot understand it.  You can study it, you can read up on issues that effect woman, and you can make your own assumptions (this threads male assumptions are typical male assumptions, but I've seen pro-feminist males before) but you have no perspective. 

As a woman who feels feminism is important but often fights the wrong fights, I'm really frustrated when I see guys even approach the issue in all honesty, because you don't understand.  It's also frustrating that these topics always seem to move onto the subject of lingerie.  It's quite offensive to be honest.


With all due respect, I find your comments not only offensive but sexist as well.  I don't understand because I have a penis between my legs?  Way to turn the same discrimination women have faced time and time again back on men; I think I understand what it feels to be discriminated against just by being put into that situation! 

People can understand by educating themselves and standing up for the cause that others, such as female feminists, believe in.  I may not be a cis-female but I have been faced with situations due to other factors that have left me frustrated and feeling discriminated against. I can get perspective without having a vagina.  It's called education, empathy and being in the same type of situations feminists and women have faced.  Am I saying that I understand what it is like to be a woman?  No, I don't but I do understand what it means to be scorned and written off. Hell, I've even been insulted and scoffed at for supporting feminism! 

I have been around women a great deal of my life.  I have a mother, three sisters, a wife, was raised by my grandmother, work in a profession that has predominantly female employees, close female friends... I have more female friends than male friends; I have been exposed to the female perspective and multiple female perspectives throughout my entire life.  Discrediting that is discrediting them and their experiences they have shared with me.

So since you have the mentality that gender is the be all, end all of being a feminist, you must have quite the interesting take on people who don't identify as any binary gender or asexually or what have you.  Gender DOES NOT equal understanding or "getting it". 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 05:46:03 PM by Silverfyre »

Offline BlightRaptor

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2013, 05:49:44 PM »
With all due respect, I find your comments not only offensive but sexist as well.  I don't understand because I have a penis between my legs?  Way to turn the same discrimination women have faced time and time again back on men; I think I understand what it feels to be discriminated against just by being put into that situation! 

People can understand by educating themselves and standing up for the cause that others, such as female feminists, believe in.  I may not be a cis-female but I have been faced with situations due to other factors that have left me frustrated and feeling discriminated against. I can get perspective without having a vagina.  It's called education, empathy and being in the same type of situations feminists and women have faced.  Am I saying that I understand what it is like to be a woman?  No, I don't but I do understand what it means to be scorned and written off. Hell, I've even been insulted and scoffed at for supporting feminism! 

I have been around women a great deal of my life.  I have a mother, three sisters, a wife, was raised by my grandmother, work in a profession that has predominantly female employees, close female friends... I have more female friends than male friends; I have been exposed to the female perspective and multiple female perspectives throughout my entire life.  Discrediting that is discrediting them and their experiences they have shared with me.

So since you have the mentality that gender is the be all, end all of being a feminist, you must have quite the interesting take on people who don't identify as any binary gender or asexually or what have you.  Gender DOES NOT equal understanding or "getting it".

*pokes head in briefly*

How dare you sir, use rational thought! Carry on!

*watches and noms on popcorn*

Offline Trieste

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2013, 05:53:30 PM »
Until I see a woman dress in a sexy manner for just being around the house, then I won't buy that a woman does it for her own confidence.

This is inherently impossible to prove. If she's wearing it for her, why in the world would you see it? Your "Because I haven't seen a woman's private moments and habits so they must not happen" is logically flawed. Fundamentally so.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2013, 05:57:09 PM »
There is no evidence of the bolded statements.

Alright, if you want to cite the Bible, let's cite the Bible.

Probably the most cited example of anti-equality sentiment in the New Testament is Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1 Peter, 2:1-2: "In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands, even those who refuse to accept the Good News. " Women obeying their husbands was deemed more important than obeying God. The rest of the verse speaks to the woman's weakness, and that's why she needs a man to tell her what to do.

And again, in Timothy (9:11-12): "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

Later, in Galatians (3:27-28), Paul goes on to say this: "As many of you as were baptized in Christ have clothed yourself in Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male or female: for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." That rather puts a whole new spin on the concept of gender equality, one a lot of people tend to skip over. If there is no male or female, all are equal, and the husband therefore cannot be the head of the wife for there isn't a husband. Merely a spouse sharing equal power.

The problem with referencing the Bible to make rational arguments is the fact that the Bible is a book filled with inconsistencies such as the ones above. In one part, all are equal and gender doesn't matter. In another, the woman must accept the authority of her husband and submit to him, even if he's not a follower of God. You point out that the notion that the woman is weaker is simply untrue. Well, sir, I welcome your interpretation of the above passages.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2013, 05:58:02 PM »
I will first say that basing the assessment of why women dress a certain way on a rather abstract and biased view of oneís mother is a rather ignorant way of forming an opinion.  The logic there goes my mother is a woman, I saw my mother dress this way, I believe she dressed this way for a reason, so all women dress only that way for that reason.  This is a bit childish in thinking and structure.  I will leave that there as many of the women on E have made their contribution to the topic.

The problem with the model, besides being outdated and unable to function in contemporary society, is that the model paints women as a second-class citizen in their own home.  Power has to be shared in a relationship that is built around the premise of equality.  If women are to be equal in their own homes then the power has to flow from both and into the other.  The husband in this model holds all the power over the woman and so makes all decisions affecting her life without the requirement of her input.  So long as he keeps her better than the family dog, heís good. 

Simply look at your own word usage.  A woman would seek refuge at a religious institution until the situation was resolved?  She had to seek refuge because of a marital dispute?  That is not Christ-like in any fashion.  I donít see in the Bible where women had to seek refuge from Christ due to a disagreement.  She disagrees with the husband, there is a martial problem and immediately she has to seek refuge or risk being on the street.  That is a horrible way to live.

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2013, 06:14:03 PM »
With all due respect, I find your comments not only offensive but sexist as well.  I don't understand because I have a penis between my legs?  Way to turn the same discrimination women have faced time and time again back on men; I think I understand what it feels to be discriminated against just by being put into that situation! 

People can understand by educating themselves and standing up for the cause that others, such as female feminists, believe in.  I may not be a cis-female but I have been faced with situations due to other factors that have left me frustrated and feeling discriminated against. I can get perspective without having a vagina.  It's called education, empathy and being in the same type of situations feminists and women have faced.  Am I saying that I understand what it is like to be a woman?  No, I don't but I do understand what it means to be scorned and written off. Hell, I've even been insulted and scoffed at for supporting feminism! 

I have been around women a great deal of my life.  I have a mother, three sisters, a wife, was raised by my grandmother, work in a profession that has predominantly female employees, close female friends... I have more female friends than male friends; I have been exposed to the female perspective and multiple female perspectives throughout my entire life.  Discrediting that is discrediting them and their experiences they have shared with me.

So since you have the mentality that gender is the be all, end all of being a feminist, you must have quite the interesting take on people who don't identify as any binary gender or asexually or what have you.  Gender DOES NOT equal understanding or "getting it".

I apologise for any offence caused.  My comments have both brought me bad attention, plus a few people have messaged me to compliment them as well.

Yes, it is my opinion, and it is solely that, that men do not understand the issues that women face, at least not in a way where you can really identify with and have perspective on it.

For instance, you will never be whistled at, you will never be told to get off a game because you are female, you will never be paid less because you are female.  You can comprehend these notions, but in the same way I cannot understand truly what it is like to be a black person in the West, I don't feel a male can truly understand what it is like to be a female, nor completely comprehend the issues that we face.

I can walk past a building site and get wolf whistled and objectified.
A transgender can walk past a building site and get insulted or stared at
A man can walk past a building site and get shouted at

Each are completely different experiences.  I know what experience you may face, I do not know how it makes you feel or fully comprehend how it affects you.  You may have female influences, and live with women, you still don't know what it is like to be a woman because you have a completely different biological make up from a woman and you never face the obstacles that we face.  You may be able to learn what the issues are, but without experiencing them, a lot of their importance are lost.  In these threads, the male POV always tends to veer away from what is actually the most important factor for a woman.  Without being a woman, it's hard to evaluate what is important and what rights feminism should be fighting for. 

For instance, most men know what a period is yet they don't fully comprehend it further than knowing it has an effect on moods.  You could go one further and read up on the actual bodily issues.  But yet, regardless of knowledge, without having one, you can never really understand it.   Put it this way, I cannot comprehend why many men are prone to violence and enjoy watching action films.  I know it's because of testosterone, but I will never ever "get it" because I'm not like that at all.  And you aren't like me.  In all honesty, the very fact your first line pointed out our differences as "i have a penis" shows a lack of understanding of the completely different hormone and emotional layers that make up a woman.

Again apologies for any offence, it certainly wasn't my intention.  Have a good evening.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 06:30:29 PM by Brittany »

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2013, 06:17:46 PM »
The entire premise of this conversation is very heteronormative and cis*centered, as has been pointed out.  Making generalizations about genders is a ludicrous idea, as gender roles are anything but set in stone nor should they be.

To respond to your first question:  Feminism, or at least the version I take to heart, is about gender equality.  In all ways, any gender (I won't say both as I don't buy into gender binary), if equal, should be interchangeable in the vast majority of non-sexual circumstances.  Let's take your reply, and swap females for males. 

Quote
Here's a shocker folks, men are sexy. Most of that physical sexiness comes from their chests and asses. You can't change that. However [some people] want to make men believe that if they dress sexy for anything other than to show how 'liberated' the man is, he is just feeding the evil women what they want. And it's even worse if it's for a wife.

So here's my suggestion. Men, if you want to dress sexy.. do it! I know the honest reason why you dress sexy, it's because you are trying to attract a female! You don't have to do anything else than to show women that you have a chest and ass and they will do the rest. In nature, this is why females have prominent features so that they do all the work and can attract the males. In human culture, women do this by making themselves seem strong, seem powerful, seem wealthy, or seem smart. Nature already had it so that women had to do all the work to get your permission to mate, you don't need feminism to do it.

Are you laughing?  Does it sound ridiculous to you?  Yeah, that's what your original text sounded like to me as a woman. 

Also, I play the hell out of video games.  All my friends, males, females and those in between, do also.  Not everyone wants to stare at a feminine shaped body.  (Even if I do sometimes.)


As for the second question, a Christian marriage is not what everyone wants.  It hinges on adherence to the Bible/Christianity.  Relationships are as individual as the people in them; no mold will work for every one.  There are many faiths and many with no faith.  Can they not have healthy relationships?

I'll even go down your check list, even if I'm not a heterosexual Christian woman (although I am a wife, so give some credit there):

Do I want my spouse to "To love his wife"?  Yes.  To admire his wife?  Yes, for my accomplishments in and out of the home.  To separate from his parents?  No.  They are loving, supportive people.  Why should I shut these people out of our lives?  Who I am to control who influences him thoughts and choices?  No love should deny love; I could never deny my spouse the love and support of his family.  To be joined to his wife?  Given that that is the purpose of marriage, yes.  To be transparent in the relationship with his wife?  Yes, beautifully.  To be the head of woman?  I have my own head.  He admires my head (pun intended).  If he wanted to marry someone who wasn't capable of undertaking her own life and depended on him for everything, he would have adopted a child.  To show honor to his wife?  He honor me for respecting my mind, my choices, and my abilities.  Opening a door is done by strangers; it's common courtesy.  He uses his manners with me because he respects me as a human being, not because he's physically stronger. 

As for me?  Should I act "To be a suitable helper for the husband"?  Yes, as much as he is a helper to me.  Equally so.  To respond actively to the good initiatives of her husband?  Sorry, I'm too proactive for that.  I have my own good ideas as much as he does.  We act together on our ideas.  I'm not going to sit around mindlessly while I make him do all the thinking.  To be open with the husband?  Naturally, just as he is transparent to me, I am with him.  To be subject to the husband?  Only as much as he is subject to me.  To love her husband with love and affection?  As much as he loves and gives affection to me, absolutely. 

Now some folks might want what you've lined out.  Good.  Let them.  Let them be happy.  Let them be happy, but let it be their choice.  I never said anyone has to live as I do, but I can't abide anyone thinking they have no choice in the matter, even if the answer to them is so clear as to there not appear to be a choice.

We've been married eight years, together over ten.  We have never taken a break or reconsidered out relationship.  We are equal partners, and our friends and family consider us to me the very model of relationship bliss.  If anyone tells me our relationship is broken because we're not sticking to Christian values or I'm not subservient to him or because he does most of the housework or because I might make more money, we'll gladly tell them to roast in their own Hell. 

In short: Yes, feminine makes me happy.  It makes me a hell of a lot happier than being shoved in some heteronormative, one-size-fits-nobody, sharply divided box.  I love being able to choose my life and relationships as what works for me and my partner; feminism means everyone has that choice.