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Author Topic: Will feminism really bring women happiness?  (Read 9191 times)

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Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2013, 02:20:21 PM »
It is worth noting that Elliquiy is a multinational, multicultural forum.  The Judeo-Christian philosophy - as well-codified as it is - is not universally held.  You may have noticed the rather active 'Elliquiy Atheists' thread, for one, and I know that there are also numerous polytheists on the forum (myself included).  As a result, the phrase 'according to Scripture' will elicit varying degrees of respect, up to and including complete dismissal.  Some will even point out that those rules were put in place by and for a small, nomadic society in a harsh environment that required an emphasis on prolific reproduction in order to balance out the high infant mortality and shorter life span.  The bits about pork and shrimp come from that same environmental impetus, by the way.  And any chef will tell you that the techniques for avoiding cross-contamination are very similar to the traditions of keeping 'milch' and 'fleisch' utensils in a kosher kitchen.

So, not an 'automatic win', by any stretch of the term.
I'm sure I stated before that I am never fully sure which parts were written for the benefit of specific areas (Such as the Corinthians books which were written as letters of advice from the Apostles to the Church of Corinthians for how to deal with their individual problems.) or if things had to only due with limitations of the current era, such as what you mentioned.

However, there are sections that are written with such broad strokes that they can easily be adapted for the current era. The laws against Adultry, Stealing, Murder, False Witness(Slander and perjury) and more are in our own law books in fact. And we still teach children to respect their parents and their elders as the Bible says we should do. If we take the time to adapt the laws and guidelines of old into our new laws, shouldn't an equal time be taken to look at the old suggestions and look at them in the proper context?

Also, no. I haven't seen an 'active' athiest tread. And I know that it is a multinational, multicultural forum, which is why I'm sharing a bit of my culture with you.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2013, 02:28:56 PM »
However, there are sections that are written with such broad strokes that they can easily be adapted for the current era. The laws against Adultry, Stealing, Murder, False Witness(Slander and perjury) and more are in our own law books in fact. And we still teach children to respect their parents and their elders as the Bible says we should do. If we take the time to adapt the laws and guidelines of old into our new laws, shouldn't an equal time be taken to look at the old suggestions and look at them in the proper context?

Just to clarify: I don't teach my children civility because the Bible says I should. I teach my children civility because I want them to grow up and be decent human beings, irregardless of what's written in a how-to survival guide from thousands of years ago.

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2013, 02:32:03 PM »
In addition, the laws that you mention date back a little further than that.

Offline BlightRaptor

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2013, 02:38:43 PM »

Feminism is not, will not, and can never be about men.  Feminism is because of men.  In spite of men.  But it's not for men.  If men want to help the feminist movement then get the rest of the men to start paying us fairly, stop whistling and have more respect.  You feel it's sexist that some feminists don't want to let you in their club?  Well how did you think all those women felt that were banned from every club, for their entire lives, and still are in many places?  It's not about men, it's the one thing that is ours (and men have many).  This is our "get back in the garage" to your "get back in the kitchen" if you will.  Sorry if I come across rude but I am very passionate about this subject.

Treating exclusion, discrimination, and segregation with more of the same probably isn't the best way to advance a cause. You have a tendency here to lump all men into the same category of being in this conspiracy to make life miserable for women. For every 1 guy on a game that sputters obscenities, there's 10 others that silently roll their eyes. No one is trying to get into the "super secret club of feminism." It may sound like madness, but some men genuinely believe that women should be free to live how they please and be treated just as fairly, but from your approach to civil rights issues (not just feminism) it sounds like no one should be offering another group a helping hand.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2013, 02:46:15 PM »
In addition, the laws that you mention date back a little further than that.
I'm trying to find out how they measured the age of it, if you have any idea I'd appreciate it. Though, the Hebrew have been putting the laws to paper right around the same time.

Just to clarify: I don't teach my children civility because the Bible says I should. I teach my children civility because I want them to grow up and be decent human beings, irregardless of what's written in a how-to survival guide from thousands of years ago.
You understand it is an example of how a grown up and decent human being is because the Bible had a long lasting effect on every culture it has influenced from the moment the first book was written from oral history, letters and notes. Imagine if the Roman or the Chinese cultures had a stronger influence or any other religion.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #105 on: February 15, 2013, 02:47:54 PM »
You understand it is an example of how a grown up and decent human being is because the Bible had a long lasting effect on every culture it has influenced from the moment the first book was written from oral history, letters and notes. Imagine if the Roman or the Chinese cultures had a stronger influence or any other religion.

Kindly don't assume how I do or do not know anything. Thank you.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2013, 02:49:22 PM »
You do realize that good people and moral codes that promoted compassion and empathy existed before the Bible right?  You also realize that the Bible borrowed heavily and was influenced by other, non-Christian sources, yes?  How about the fact that you are ignoring one entire hemisphere of the world and basically equating everything to a Western mindset and standard? 

The Bible and Christianity are not the "be all, end all" and I am confused why you are using it as a measure of feminism when it is entirely subjective and faith-based.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2013, 02:51:41 PM »
I'm trying to find out how they measured the age of it, if you have any idea I'd appreciate it. Though, the Hebrew have been putting the laws to paper right around the same time.

The general consensus is that the Code of Hammurabi predates the oldest parts of the Bible by about 300 years.  The Code can be dated quite precisely (there are dates in the document that we're fairly certain we know) and 1772 BC is the accepted date.  The earliest bits of the bible were probably comitted to paper about 1400 BC.  While its probable they date from earlier oral traditions noone can say for sure how far back they date and 300 years seems high.

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #108 on: February 15, 2013, 02:53:57 PM »
You understand it is an example of how a grown up and decent human being is because the Bible had a long lasting effect on every culture it has influenced from the moment the first book was written from oral history, letters and notes. Imagine if the Roman or the Chinese cultures had a stronger influence or any other religion.

This is a very... ethnocentric statement.  Christianity is the faith of choice of only one third of humanity.  As many of us learned in high school, popularity doesn't equate to being the best.  Why should the tenants of a single faith apply to the other 66% of humanity? 

Another question I meant to ask: If the Bible had reversed the genders, would you as a male desire the position outlined for you?

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #109 on: February 15, 2013, 02:57:25 PM »
Treating exclusion, discrimination, and segregation with more of the same probably isn't the best way to advance a cause. You have a tendency here to lump all men into the same category of being in this conspiracy to make life miserable for women. For every 1 guy on a game that sputters obscenities, there's 10 others that silently roll their eyes. No one is trying to get into the "super secret club of feminism." It may sound like madness, but some men genuinely believe that women should be free to live how they please and be treated just as fairly, but from your approach to civil rights issues (not just feminism) it sounds like no one should be offering another group a helping hand.

I've updated my post.  However I will repeat it here.  While anger should not be responded to with more anger, and unfairness should not be treat with unfairness, I have very little sympathy for any male "victims" of sexism. 

From the moment I was born I was restricted with what I can do in my life.  I cannot play professional football and get the same millions as the men.  I cannot be pope or even a priest.  I cannot even get paid the same as the man who sits on the desk next to me.  And I have it lucky.  My grandmother was forced to marry someone. 

Now to hear men claiming they are victims of sexism, or are feminists, it just makes me laugh.  Feminism at its core is a movement to eradicate all the unfairness in womens lives caused by men.  Caused by a particular man?  No.  Did some men back in history say "we should treat them a bit better?" Maybe so. 

But women have suffered sexism for thousands of years.  Saying "ok we'll treat you fairly from now on" doesn't quite cut it in my opinion.  Am I sexist?  Perhaps.  But it's not irrational sexism designed to hold men down for no other reason than to exert my power or because I'm scared of what will happen if they have too much influence.  It's a dislike of the gender which has insulted and held me back all my life. 

As I said, men want to help feminism?  Then get the rest of the men to start paying us properly and we'll go from there.  Feminism doesn't need men's support, feminism needs men's action.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:06:32 PM by Brittany »

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #110 on: February 15, 2013, 03:01:55 PM »


 ;D

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #111 on: February 15, 2013, 03:04:56 PM »
Kindly don't assume how I do or do not know anything. Thank you.
I don't assume, this is cultural fact. The vast majority of Canada was settled by the French, a very religious country back in it's day. (The Fleur-de-lis in fact is a representation of the Holy Trinity.) What settlers weren't shipped over by order of the King were here to escape religious persecution and they carried their traditions with them. Those traditions are passed down though the lines and into newlines when they marry, you can't escape this fact.

You do realize that good people and moral codes that promoted compassion and empathy existed before the Bible right?  You also realize that the Bible borrowed heavily and was influenced by other, non-Christian sources, yes?  How about the fact that you are ignoring one entire hemisphere of the world and basically equating everything to a Western mindset and standard? 

The Bible and Christianity are not the "be all, end all" and I am confused why you are using it as a measure of feminism when it is entirely subjective and faith-based.
I'm not using it as a measure of feminism. I am using one aspect of the philosophy to find an alternative to the feminist philosophy when it comes to the idea of how the family unit should function.

I use other aspects to review the entirety of the feminist philosophy.

The general consensus is that the Code of Hammurabi predates the oldest parts of the Bible by about 300 years.  The Code can be dated quite precisely (there are dates in the document that we're fairly certain we know) and 1772 BC is the accepted date.  The earliest bits of the bible were probably comitted to paper about 1400 BC.  While its probable they date from earlier oral traditions noone can say for sure how far back they date and 300 years seems high.
We have rarely been very good with dating ages once we get past 5000 years. Record become scattered and without them to support the dating, even the most accurate dating, radiocarbon dating, starts to become harder to get accurate. I suspect 1772 BC is the average of the dates they achieved and they had a broad range of dates to chose from.

This is a very... ethnocentric statement.  Christianity is the faith of choice of only one third of humanity.  As many of us learned in high school, popularity doesn't equate to being the best.  Why should the tenants of a single faith apply to the other 66% of humanity? 

Another question I meant to ask: If the Bible had reversed the genders, would you as a male desire the position outlined for you?
I never once said it was the best, it was just the only one I fully understood at this time.

To your second question, looking at everything within the philosophy and if I'm allowed to be of the same mind I am now then I would be alright with it.

If my wife completed her duties to the fullest (which would actually only be possible if she was stronger than I so I'm going to go with that as well) which included providing for my needs ether directly or indirectly, protecting and caring for me, showing me love and respect, taking initiative in supporting the activities I enjoy as well in taking care of the house and home. Yes, I wouldn't have a problem fulfilling my duties in happiness in return.

You know, honestly that sounds like it would be a fun roleplay. When I get approved I'll make a thread for it.

@Brittany:

You can't be a professional football player because you can never be as big or as strong as the men, this is a fact of our physiology. And as is seen with the WNBA, female sports don't sell as well as male sports.

Also, about the female pay thing, I refer to someone smarter than I: http://youtu.be/EwogDPh-Sow

Also, I laughed at that one part. 'I may be sexist, but at least it's not irrational sexism!'

Offline Kythia

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #112 on: February 15, 2013, 03:07:26 PM »

We have rarely been very good with dating ages once we get past 5000 years. Record become scattered and without them to support the dating, even the most accurate dating, radiocarbon dating, starts to become harder to get accurate. I suspect 1772 BC is the average of the dates they achieved and they had a broad range of dates to chose from.

Sorry, I was obviously not clear.  There are dates within the document.  The stele is dated.  This is nothing to do with radiocarbon dating (and, incidentally, 1772 BC is less than 5000 years anyway) its to do with making sure we understand the calender, which we're pretty certain we do.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #113 on: February 15, 2013, 03:08:24 PM »
I don't assume, this is cultural fact. The vast majority of Canada was settled by the French, a very religious country back in it's day. (The Fleur-de-lis in fact is a representation of the Holy Trinity.) What settlers weren't shipped over by order of the King were here to escape religious persecution and they carried their traditions with them. Those traditions are passed down though the lines and into newlines when they marry, you can't escape this fact.

Your assumption is that I am white, live in an area of strong French descent, have French ancestry, and not a recent immigrant to Canada.

Two of these things are incorrect.

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #114 on: February 15, 2013, 03:12:54 PM »
@Brittany:

You can't be a professional football player because you can never be as big or as strong as the men, this is a fact of our physiology. And as is seen with the WNBA, female sports don't sell as well as male sports.

Also, about the female pay thing, I refer to someone smarter than I: http://youtu.be/EwogDPh-Sow

Also, I laughed at that one part. 'I may be sexist, but at least it's not irrational sexism!'

Firstly I am British, so I am talking about Soccer, which is a predominantly female game in the rest of the world.  England's womens soccer team are twice world champions.  England's male soccer team are flops.  Who gets paid more?  Or actually who gets paid at all?

I already went over the pay discrepancies.  Legally men and women are meant to be paid the same now (although they never were).  Many companies have gotten around these new rules with performance related pay or personal wages that you must keep secret from the rest of the employees.  Companies advise that the pay has taken into consideration performance, but plenty of surveys have shown women doing the same jobs to the same level of competence are getting paid less, either because they agreed to it in negotiation (and it was offered low) or the males have gotten a payrise.

Your video simply says women get paid less because they work less hours.  The fact is I work the same hours as other people in my organisation, do just a good a job and get paid less.

My comment regarding sexism was valid.  As is reverse racism.  It's not really a great quality, but sexism can be rationalised from a female to a male.  If the man next to me suddenly started getting paid less, why should I really feel for him?  I've been getting paid less than him for 3 years.  As I said, women have been held back for years and years.  Saying "you have equality now" doesn't really cut it.

Offline BlightRaptor

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #115 on: February 15, 2013, 03:14:53 PM »
I've updated my post.  However I will repeat it here.  While anger should not be responded to with more anger, and unfairness should not be treat with unfairness, I have very little sympathy for any male "victims" of sexism. 

From the moment I was born I was restricted with what I can do in my life.  I cannot play professional football and get the same millions as the men.  I cannot be pope or even a priest.  I cannot even get paid the same as the man who sits on the desk next to me.  And I have it lucky.  My grandmother was forced to marry someone. 

Now to hear men claiming they are victims of sexism, or are feminists, it just makes me laugh.  Feminism at its core is a movement to eradicate all the unfairness in womens lives caused by men.  Caused by a particular man?  No.  Did some men back in history say "we should treat them a bit better?" Maybe so. 

But women have suffered sexism for thousands of years.  Saying "ok we'll treat you fairly from now on" doesn't quite cut it in my opinion.  Am I sexist?  Perhaps.  But it's not irrational sexism designed to hold men down for no other reason than to exert my power or because I'm scared of what will happen if they have too much influence.  It's a dislike of the gender which has insulted and held me back all my life. 

As I said, men want to help feminism?  Then get the rest of the men to start paying us properly and we'll go from there.

Well, Brit, I'm sorry for those experiences, but I know sorry doesn't cut it. If I had a magic wand to undo the wrongs that were done to people, I'd wave it in an instant (especially for my mommy.) I can't tell you to not dislike someone, lord knows I'm frequently guilty of hatred towards others (like people who talk on their cell phone in the car!) I can't venture a guess what the work place is like in the UK, and if it's behind the times in regards to equal opportunity, I'm honestly quite shocked hearing that about a country that abolished slavery before mine did.

However, I think it may be unfair to hold something against people who were born physically different from you. No one living chose how history played out, and if anyone living is tied to those days, they're probably about to keel over and croak.



 ;D

Hehe.. well Hello Kitty.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #116 on: February 15, 2013, 03:16:35 PM »
Reverse racism?  What a quaint word choice.  No, racism is racism, regardless of who is targeted by it.

Offline Star Safyre

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #117 on: February 15, 2013, 03:17:15 PM »
I never once said it was the best, it was just the only one I fully understood at this time.

To your second question, looking at everything within the philosophy and if I'm allowed to be of the same mind I am now then I would be alright with it.

If my wife completed her duties to the fullest (which would actually only be possible if she was stronger than I so I'm going to go with that as well) which included providing for my needs ether directly or indirectly, protecting and caring for me, showing me love and respect, taking initiative in supporting the activities I enjoy as well in taking care of the house and home. Yes, I wouldn't have a problem fulfilling my duties in happiness in return.

You know, honestly that sounds like it would be a fun roleplay. When I get approved I'll make a thread for it.

While I'll concede that you didn't state that this model of "traditional" marriage is the best, you certainly did present it in your initial post as the answer to social ills you felt feminism had not addressed.  If it's not the best, what in your opinion is a better arrangement?

Also on a side note (and being a former mentor on this site), I would want to make sure it is clear that approval is not guaranteed.  Approval is a matter of "if I am approved" not "when".

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #118 on: February 15, 2013, 03:23:31 PM »
No one living chose how history played out, and if anyone living is tied to those days, they're probably about to keel over and croak.

But this is talking like the injustice is over and that guys are going to place nice from now on and all the sexists who believed women needed to serve men are all dying.  This very thread shows that attitude is still prevalent.  The people who tell girls on xbox live to get into the kitchen, or kick them from groups for being better than them, they aren't old men.  The rules that state a woman cannot be priest, they are not being challenged.

The problem is, people do not treat sexism as they should and close it down.  You may roll your eyes if someone says something to me in a video game.  Yet what happens if I were black and someone was racist to me?  Would you roll your eyes?  You'd likely tell them to stop.  Or report it.  If reported action would be taken.

The fact is there is HUGE activism against racism.  We are blocking racism at every single turn.  We are arresting people who sing racist songs at sports, we are putting people in jail for being racist.  Some argue that it's going too far, but it is having an effect.  Sexism isn't like that.  I told a moderator of this site that I felt the original post was sexist.  While they sympathised with me, nothing was done.  I believe if it really pressed the buttons on race, it probably would be gone. 

To say that it's dying out, it really isn't.  We have a new generation with different methods.  We're not outright being made slaves, but we are being exploited and pushed towards drugs and prostitution by men.  We aren't being banned from clubs, but we are being kicked out of groups in Halo.  We aren't being actively paid less, but we are having our "performance related reviews" unfairly giving us less.  And go and look at the middle East.

People don't take it seriously enough.  Feminism really needs to step it up in my opinion.

Reverse racism?  What a quaint word choice.  No, racism is racism, regardless of who is targeted by it.

Reverse racism is a known term.  You can wikipedia it I believe.  I do apologise, but I think it's better if we stick to our arrangement not to communicate.  We see differently on the subject and if we're resorting to cat pictures, I'd rather you just ignored me.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:26:03 PM by Brittany »

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #119 on: February 15, 2013, 03:24:17 PM »
If my wife completed her duties to the fullest (which would actually only be possible if she was stronger than I so I'm going to go with that as well) which included providing for my needs ether directly or indirectly, protecting and caring for me, showing me love and respect, taking initiative in supporting the activities I enjoy as well in taking care of the house and home. Yes, I wouldn't have a problem fulfilling my duties in happiness in return.

Um - no, not necessarily.  Given proper application of technology, muscle mass is not as much of a requirement as it was in pre-industrial times.  I look like I could be blown over in a stiff wind, but given a block and tackle in the correct ratio (or better yet, a powered hoist), I can lift an engine block out of a Chevy.  Give me an electromagnetic crane, and I can lift the whole damn car.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #120 on: February 15, 2013, 03:27:51 PM »
Sorry, I was obviously not clear.  There are dates within the document.  The stele is dated.  This is nothing to do with radiocarbon dating (and, incidentally, 1772 BC is less than 5000 years anyway) its to do with making sure we understand the calender, which we're pretty certain we do.
Oh I see, I haven't had time to study the stone in full, specificity from lack of being able to look at it, read it and understand it. If this is true, then it shows again what a strong effect one culture and philosophy can have on another.

Your assumption is that I am white, live in an area of strong French descent, have French ancestry, and not a recent immigrant to Canada.

Two of these things are incorrect.
First, I never assumed that you are white. A black man can be a frenchman as much as a white man can.

Second, the majority of Canada is French, so I would have to have bad luck to speak to someone who isn't in a place influenced by the french culture, I see the same thing in Louisiana.

Third, again, a lot of Canadians can trace their ancestry back to France or other European countries with a strong religious background so I would just have to have bad luck.

And fourth, knowing how difficult it is to immigrate into Canada, I again shot for the majority. I have personally seen what it was like for my father to attempt to immigrate to Canada even when he is married to a Canadian and be turned down.

Firstly I am British, so I am talking about Soccer, which is a predominantly female game in the rest of the world.  England's womens soccer team are twice world champions.  England's male soccer team are flops.  Who gets paid more?  Or actually who gets paid at all?

I already went over the pay discrepancies.  Legally men and women are meant to be paid the same now (although they never were).  Many companies have gotten around these new rules with performance related pay or personal wages that you must keep secret from the rest of the employees.  Companies advise that the pay has taken into consideration performance, but plenty of surveys have shown women doing the same jobs to the same level of competence are getting paid less, either because they agreed to it in negotiation (and it was offered low) or the males have gotten a payrise.

Your video simply says women get paid less because they work less hours.  The fact is I work the same hours as other people in my organisation, do just a good a job and get paid less.
Ah, my apologies, I couldn't see where you were located. If there is indeed such a large pay gap between male and female players when the females perform much better and earn more than their male counterparts, you do indeed have a problem that needs to be resolved.

Are you sure you looked at all the factors that has allowed your male co-worker to earn more than you? Has he worked there longer than you? Does he has a higher education with a higher GPA? Has he indeed performed better than you have? has he taken initiative and asked for a raise? These are factors that must be considered first before we check to see if there is really sexual discrimination in play here.

While I'll concede that you didn't state that this model of "traditional" marriage is the best, you certainly did present it in your initial post as the answer to social ills you felt feminism had not addressed.  If it's not the best, what in your opinion is a better arrangement?
That's a difficult question. And as I think on it.. I don't think there is a clear and honest answer. The Christian Philosophy did it's best to make one set of rules, but as I view the situation now I don't think there can be one.

We as a world-wide culture have grown beyond that. With our technology there is fewer and fewer reasons for what was laid out to be true. To be honest, the real answer to your question would very on the individuals. One family might be ok with the Philosophy presented here, another might need it to be reversed as you presented. Another might operate their family by delegating of duties. I could go on with enough time. However, I do believe I have answered your question.d

On a final note, I want to make clear that when I say we have 'grown beyond that', I don't mean we should wash it to the wayside. We can learn so much by looking into our past so we can't brush it all away.

Um - no, not necessarily.  Given proper application of technology, muscle mass is not as much of a requirement as it was in pre-industrial times.  I look like I could be blown over in a stiff wind, but given a block and tackle in the correct ratio (or better yet, a powered hoist), I can lift an engine block out of a Chevy.  Give me an electromagnetic crane, and I can lift the whole damn car.
I see your point. Perhaps we should reevaluate the terms 'Husband' and 'Wife' in another thread.

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #121 on: February 15, 2013, 03:36:32 PM »
That's a difficult question. And as I think on it.. I don't think there is a clear and honest answer. The Christian Philosophy did it's best to make one set of rules, but as I view the situation now I don't think there can be one.

We as a world-wide culture have grown beyond that. With our technology there is fewer and fewer reasons for what was laid out to be true. To be honest, the real answer to your question would very on the individuals. One family might be ok with the Philosophy presented here, another might need it to be reversed as you presented. Another might operate their family by delegating of duties. I could go on with enough time. However, I do believe I have answered your question.d

On a final note, I want to make clear that when I say we have 'grown beyond that', I don't mean we should wash it to the wayside. We can learn so much by looking into our past so we can't brush it all away.

I can agree that being aware and considerate of past cultures has it merits.  Your initial post painted these "traditional" roles as a broad stroke to solve the problems in all the relationships between men and women.  Am I to take it that your opinion on the matter has changed since your original post?

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #122 on: February 15, 2013, 03:37:09 PM »

First, I never assumed that you are white. A black man can be a frenchman as much as a white man can.

Second, the majority of Canada is French, so I would have to have bad luck to speak to someone who isn't in a place influenced by the french culture, I see the same thing in Louisiana.

Third, again, a lot of Canadians can trace their ancestry back to France or other European countries with a strong religious background so I would just have to have bad luck.

And fourth, knowing how difficult it is to immigrate into Canada, I again shot for the majority. I have personally seen what it was like for my father to attempt to immigrate to Canada even when he is married to a Canadian and be turned down.


No, the majority of Canada is not French.  23 percent of Canadians speak French, as compared to the 60 percent that speak English.  (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language_in_Canada and http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/statistics/a/statslang.htm).  A good deal of Canadians can trace their heritage back to France and other European countries but that does not mean that they are all still strongly religious or influenced by Christianity.  It is a part of the culture but remember, not everyone is a Christian in that country.  Canada also does not have an official religion.  (source: http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Americas/Canada-RELIGIONS.html)

Immigration into Canada is only difficult if you have inadequate records, a past criminal record or are attempting to circumvent the immigration laws.  I should know being of Canadian birth and having immigrated to the United States.  I am also currently looking into immigrating back to Canada so the laws are familiar to me. 

Perhaps cite your sources to back up your opinions?


Reverse racism is a known term.  You can wikipedia it I believe.  I do apologise, but I think it's better if we stick to our arrangement not to communicate.  We see differently on the subject and if we're resorting to cat pictures, I'd rather you just ignored me.

Fair enough.  I would rather we keep that agreement personally.

Offline Brittany

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #123 on: February 15, 2013, 03:47:58 PM »
Ah, my apologies, I couldn't see where you were located. If there is indeed such a large pay gap between male and female players when the females perform much better and earn more than their male counterparts, you do indeed have a problem that needs to be resolved.

Are you sure you looked at all the factors that has allowed your male co-worker to earn more than you? Has he worked there longer than you? Does he has a higher education with a higher GPA? Has he indeed performed better than you have? has he taken initiative and asked for a raise? These are factors that must be considered first before we check to see if there is really sexual discrimination in play here.

England's women team took home 40 a day (1,400 per person) during the 2007 world cup where they reached the quarter finals.  The average top level English soccer players make more in one week, than the entire ladies team put together over two months, yet usually fail to qualify or get past the first round.

http://soccerlens.com/womens-football-in-england-slave-labor/4026/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/women/7095951.stm

The factor that allows my co-worker to get paid more than me is that I am a "Guest and Support Co-ordinator" and he is a "Hotel and Support Co-ordinator".  Our roles are exactly the same, except my primary focus is on guests, and his primary focus is on staff.  His role is 500 more a month than mine.   Discussing it with management I am told that the reason for the discrepancy is to do with the differences in our roles, but having seen both of our jobs specifications, it is the exact same thing with a few words replaced here and there such as "guest" replaced with "hotelier".  If either of the jobs are more different, mine involves dealing with the direct general public rather than internal customers, so you would believe it was the one that is the more demanding.

This is life though, this happens everywhere.  By saying "you cannot discriminate and pay women less anymore" all they did was ensure that you couldn't be obvious about it.  Performance related bonuses, different job titles, personal salary negotiations get around any legislation. 
Companies that had been paying women less for 150 years, found the loopholes as soon as the laws came into effect and still use them to this day.

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #124 on: February 15, 2013, 03:51:50 PM »
England's women team took home 40 a day (1,400 per person) during the 2007 world cup where they reached the quarter finals.  The average top level English soccer players make more in one week, than the entire ladies team put together over two months, yet usually fail to qualify or get past the first round.


We generally do a little better than that  ;D

But the issue here is that men's football is more popular than women's.  Success has nothing to do with it, footballers are paid by how much they bring in to their teams, not how succesful they are.  Think of footballers as entertainers, rather than anything else.  Men's football brings in more money, thus it pays its employees higher. 

I'm not convinced this is sexism.  This is just pure market forces.  I love football, have had a season ticket most of my life and am travelling to Brazil (hopefully) next year and Russia after that.  But I cant name a single female football player.