government shut down

[Kythia]

Ask me that after the next time you have to fill out a governmental form.  I'd link you to some of the US forms online, but I don't know if they can be accessed outside of the country.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying bureaucracies can't be bad, I'm just asking why they are automatically seen to be.  Ours (government forms) are pretty good by and large.  We have something called the "Plain English Campaign" that certifies them as, well, plain English.

[TheGlyphstone]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying bureaucracies can't be bad, I'm just asking why they are automatically seen to be.  Ours (government forms) are pretty good by and large.  We have something called the "Plain English Campaign" that certifies them as, well, plain English.

Probably because the good/efficient parts of a bureaucracy tend to get their work done behind the scenes, or so quickly by the common wo/man's perspective that it's hardly there at all. It's the slow, clumsy, inefficient, or obnoxious parts that draw enough of our attention to stick in our memory and perception.

[gaggedLouise]

Probably because the good/efficient parts of a bureaucracy tend to get their work done behind the scenes, or so quickly by the common wo/man's perspective that it's hardly there at all. It's the slow, clumsy, inefficient, or obnoxious parts that draw enough of our attention to stick in our memory and perception.

Those are the folks that make you want to say "Government, shut up!" 

I've occasionally been in touch with public services (not talking health care here) that absolutely refused to acknowledge that people now communicate by e-mail or over the web - if you wanted to add anything to the application you'd submitted, or ask how it was going, you had to call the specific bureaucrat on the phone at specific and seemingly random phone hours (like, three hours altogether over a week) and hope they were there. Leaving messages through the switchboard was impossible, communicating by e-mail was a no-no too, at least if you wanted any kind of recognition that your e-mail had been received and read and your question noted.

Of course, you had to use the specific preprinted papers  of those agencies to make any application, but do not think for one moment that they put those online so you could print them out yourself. No, you had to come in and get them - wait, you had to call in advance and say you wanted those particular pulp sheets.   

[Retribution]

As far as Vekseid commented on my link I came up with earlier I am not saying some of the profit taking so on is not ridiculous. I am not totally on board that profit is a bad thing though. Yes, medical care should not be denied but a doctor should get paid as well. All of that money in school not to mention blood, sweat, and tears passing med school deserves some compensation.

Bureaucracy also has a place because it handles massive volumes of work load with a set system. If it was not for that then the workload would overwhelm the system. The problems arises in what I call beating square pegs in round holes. The system has a nasty tendency to not allow those working in the system and running it to think. If some project does not fit neatly into whatever slot it overwhelms the system and you get well stupid shit. Such as the forms that were mentioned. If you have some issue that there is not a space on the form for then the rigid system cannot  deal with it.

I guess my whole concern with the ACA is I have seen some really good ideas come up in legislation. But when the legislative process is done tweaking it, it becomes a mess. The end result is the good idea is essentially lost. I know that is a rather broad and general statement, but when one sees it happen over and over call me jaded but I see a pattern. Having said all that big corporations are generally as much of a bureaucratic mess as government. Ask anyone who has ever been on the phone pressing automated number whatever for a device they bought that does not work.

[Vekseid]

Splitting topics is always annoying as stuff gets intertwined. Discussion involving health care and taxation themselves, rather than the debate over the ACA and such as a proposal, should go in the new thread, while the United States Congress being a fustercluck can stay in this thread >_>

[Bloodied Porcelain]

On Topic: I might be in the minority here, but as much as I love the good things about the ACA, I'm all in favor of taking all social programs out of the fed's hands and putting them in the states. This is bearing in mind there would still be federal laws the states have to abide by (IE they can't cancel core social programs like WIC or insurance programs for any reason). The federal government should be focusing on military, foreign policy, federal parks (and other such things like that), and enacting federal laws. Schools, state infrastructure (IE state roads and public places), and social programs should all be left to the states, and the states should be the one taxing to fund them, not the feds. This would initially mean federal taxes would go down but state taxes would go up so generally you'd be paying about the same amount to start out, but federal government is too big and too innefficient, so once that stuff is in the state's hands and handled on a smaller scale, managing it would get easier. Not to mention that the states know better what their people need than the feds do, so they can tailor everything to what their needs are.

[Callie Del Noire]

Shutdown topic.  Veks split the topic to keep derails from happening.

I called the folks that hired (or were going to hire me.. I have an INTERIM letter of intent)

Turns out that thanks to the Government shutdown, the DoD (who along with the State Department) are the point of contact/originators of my contract, my contract will most likely NOT be funded till sometime after the New Year.

Merry F-ing Xmas to me. I called my local Congresstool's office and his staff were like 'It was all the President's fault to push us to this point sir, we had nothing to do about it.' The only reason I didn't get hung up on was I played my 'big card, disabled veteran' issue. The person on the phone didn't like me throwing out that the Congressman was part of the laziest congress in sixty years or that I wasn't buying into the 'it's always been the party of lower taxes'. I guess I'm looking for a new party because I'm sure I won't get anymore emails/letters from THAT congressman anymore.

Didn't answer my question how holding the public hostage rather than exercising some statemanship was better.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

Shutdown topic.  Veks split the topic to keep derails from happening.

I called the folks that hired (or were going to hire me.. I have an INTERIM letter of intent)

Turns out that thanks to the Government shutdown, the DoD (who along with the State Department) are the point of contact/originators of my contract, my contract will most likely NOT be funded till sometime after the New Year.

Merry F-ing Xmas to me. I called my local Congresstool's office and his staff were like 'It was all the President's fault to push us to this point sir, we had nothing to do about it.' The only reason I didn't get hung up on was I played my 'big card, disabled veteran' issue. The person on the phone didn't like me throwing out that the Congressman was part of the laziest congress in sixty years or that I wasn't buying into the 'it's always been the party of lower taxes'. I guess I'm looking for a new party because I'm sure I won't get anymore emails/letters from THAT congressman anymore.

Didn't answer my question how holding the public hostage rather than exercising some statemanship was better.

*hugs you tight* I'm a contractor too... currently for the DoD. There's a hiring freeze right now, and if our funding on our contract runs out before a budget is passed... guess who loses their job? The same thing happened to me last year... almost a year to the day (I was laid off Sept 30, 2012, didn't get another job till August 19, 2013). I'm right there with you hun. The stress is killing people. :(

[Oniya]

*hugs you tight* I'm a contractor too... currently for the DoD. There's a hiring freeze right now, and if our funding on our contract runs out before a budget is passed... guess who loses their job? The same thing happened to me last year... almost a year to the day (I was laid off Sept 30, 2012, didn't get another job till August 19, 2013). I'm right there with you hun. The stress is killing people. :(

My former job was dependent on the EPA.  So, yeah.

[Dashenka]

Is there any news of a break through btw?

[Bloodied Porcelain]

Is there any news of a break through btw?

Nope :( At least there wasn't any this morning.

[ladyelizabeth]

no new as of yet.  Just a reaction from the dow.  It is down over 150 points with the uncertainty

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The assessment I heard from NPR is that Republicans are trying to pass small bills to fund the government in order to get out of the box they've painted themselves into.  Currently they are also spitting and ranting for a lifeline from the Democrats who aren't in a rush to save them.  This is why the Republicans are crying that nobody wants to negotiate with them. 

[Callie Del Noire]

*hugs you tight* I'm a contractor too... currently for the DoD. There's a hiring freeze right now, and if our funding on our contract runs out before a budget is passed... guess who loses their job? The same thing happened to me last year... almost a year to the day (I was laid off Sept 30, 2012, didn't get another job till August 19, 2013). I'm right there with you hun. The stress is killing people. :(

It irks me.. the staffer was like 'oh you've not been hired since 2009' (with the air of 'you useless fuck' in her voice) and it was only when I mentioned I was a disabled vet (one of their hot words I'm sure) that the smug 'you're a waste of my time' attitude ended. I'm a voter in this jerks district, which never ceases to surprise me since I live in a predominantly lower middle class (or lower) district that a GOP rep gets elected again and again. Must be the massive numbers of service members that live near the Naval station that skew the numbers.

I worked hard in the service, I worked hard when I got out, I tried to find out why I was blacklisted by Lockheed and have sent out something like 20 resumees in the community only to get crap fringe job offers like 14 dollar/hour jobs that offer STRICTLY 32 hours a week in places like Downtown Philly. My congressman shouldn't be impeding my ability to reenter the workforce.

I need this job. 2 Years in Taiwan is a great way to leverage my way back into the community. It's also the first honest job offer I got that wasn't a BS gimp job or a scam to squeeze out a product without paying the right fees.

[ladyelizabeth]

Thank you for your service.  I hope things straighten out soon :(

[Retribution]

I work or the state EPA and right now am literally climbing the walls in boredom. You see US EPA passes their inspections down for the states to do and guess what I do? Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!! I feel like I am in solitary! On other notes they have even closed law enforcement in national parks I know from family members. So if you want to use a giant redwood for firewood go for it no one will stop you.

As for BP's point earlier about passing things like ACA down to the state level. I utterly agree with that approach.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

I'm actually at work right now... Getting paid with money the DoD gave to my company for me to do my job. And guess what? I don't have any fucking thing to do. Part of that is because of the nature of my work (technical writing is a lot of hurry up and wait, it seems)... we go through dry spells while we wait to hear from other teams about what we need to add/change in their manuals and whatnot... but the biggest part? The other teams can't give us any feed back until a decision maker is here to give the yes or no to their questions. Guess who got furloughed? ALL THE DECISION MAKERS! 

[Callie Del Noire]

Speaking as a RINO (Republican in Name Only) this is a toxic stand off that can only hurt the GOP in the long run. They engaged in brinksmanship.. got called on it. Now they are trying to shift the blame. Problem is.. they can't. They have spent the last YEAR doing as little as possible, failing to fulfill their promise to 'fix' the sequester but arent' willing to reverse the course of non-bipartisan obstructionism that has been the GOP course of action since Newt Gingrich led the House Republicans.

We should have (and I speak as a Republican) done so much more.. but House Leadership refuses to take the role of statesman and show that they can be the leaders we need to fix the issues. Instead they keep the keys to the clubhouse close at hand, kill anything and everything that a democrat has touched in the House, and blame the President/Democrats/Senate for their failures.

Objectively, they could have formed a joint committee, rolled back plans from when THEY tried to push the ACA's predecessors when the ACA was being proposed.. instead they balked, stalled and came out with mud in their faces. Now THIS year they could have gone 'We'll FIX this'..and taken off running. Instead we've had wasted motions like the totally useless votes to defund the ACA so the newly arrived Republicans could have their vote counted for later adds. (I VOTED AGAINST IT!).

They need to roll back to the way the House was in 1990 or so. When seniority determined committees, not party loyalty. Accept that you don't have to like your peers.. but you do have to WORK with them. Stop catering to K-Street like they were the ones that voted you into office and stop assuming this is business as usual. We've got to stop catering to the fools who rode the Tea Party Express into office and refuse to accept what they said to get elected isn't what  is going on. Accept that they do NOT know how things work and need to learn it. Instead of steadfastly refusing to shake the hand of the Honorable Democrat from Flatbush, take his hand, shake it.. sit down and find out what they want to do for their constituents..and do what you have to for yours.

Basically grow the HELL up.

[Retribution]

It sounds like BP and I are cell mates  My office is moving also and they just took my phone and work PC. Those are supposed to be up and running again sometime next week. Till then I am sitting here in a closet and I I hear they will try water boarding next if this does not break me. Now speaking of that government inefficiency.......

[Ebb]

It irks me.. the staffer was like 'oh you've not been hired since 2009' (with the air of 'you useless fuck' in her voice) and it was only when I mentioned I was a disabled vet (one of their hot words I'm sure) that the smug 'you're a waste of my time' attitude ended. I'm a voter in this jerks district, which never ceases to surprise me since I live in a predominantly lower middle class (or lower) district that a GOP rep gets elected again and again. Must be the massive numbers of service members that live near the Naval station that skew the numbers.

I worked hard in the service, I worked hard when I got out, I tried to find out why I was blacklisted by Lockheed and have sent out something like 20 resumees in the community only to get crap fringe job offers like 14 dollar/hour jobs that offer STRICTLY 32 hours a week in places like Downtown Philly. My congressman shouldn't be impeding my ability to reenter the workforce.

I need this job. 2 Years in Taiwan is a great way to leverage my way back into the community. It's also the first honest job offer I got that wasn't a BS gimp job or a scam to squeeze out a product without paying the right fees.

That is a really lousy situation. You have my sympathies.

If you're so inclined, I would strongly urge you to write up an account of your situation and send it as a letter to the editor of your local newspaper. Or whichever municipal paper most of the people in your congressional district read. Ultimately your representative is going to be counting on the votes of people like you and your neighbors. Pressure from people like you -- which you've already done -- is a very good way for an individual citizen to help break the deadlock.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

It irks me.. the staffer was like 'oh you've not been hired since 2009' (with the air of 'you useless fuck' in her voice) and it was only when I mentioned I was a disabled vet (one of their hot words I'm sure) that the smug 'you're a waste of my time' attitude ended. I'm a voter in this jerks district, which never ceases to surprise me since I live in a predominantly lower middle class (or lower) district that a GOP rep gets elected again and again. Must be the massive numbers of service members that live near the Naval station that skew the numbers.

I worked hard in the service, I worked hard when I got out, I tried to find out why I was blacklisted by Lockheed and have sent out something like 20 resumees in the community only to get crap fringe job offers like 14 dollar/hour jobs that offer STRICTLY 32 hours a week in places like Downtown Philly. My congressman shouldn't be impeding my ability to reenter the workforce.

I need this job. 2 Years in Taiwan is a great way to leverage my way back into the community. It's also the first honest job offer I got that wasn't a BS gimp job or a scam to squeeze out a product without paying the right fees.

I got a lot of those really shitty offers. It was either those, or jobs that wanted to pay me LESS than my last job and wanted me to drive two hours FURTHER to get there, with no offer to provide gas or services to help FIND (not pay for, just find) a place to live that was closer to the job site. Sad part is I almost took a few of the ones far out of my area just to get back to work (I do not do well when I'm not productive). Thankfully I held out till this one came up, but even this one pays far less than what I used to make (five dollars an hour difference). The sequester fucked anyone who was DoD related... Even civilians. Remember when working for the government used to mean job security? =/

[Ebb]

No shutdown breakthrough. The 'summit meeting' of the top four members of Congress and the President yesterday seems to have had little impact. The latest House Republican tactic is to pass targeted funding bills focused on high-profile victims of the shutdown, such as the DC government, the National Institute of Health, national parks, etc. Basically anything that's getting attention in the press. The idea is for them to pass these limited bills in the House and send them to the Senate. If the Senate passes them, then some of the public furor over the shutdown diminishes, and it makes it look like things are getting done. If the Senate rejects them, then the House Republicans can point to the Senate and say "Well, they voted against funding the national parks (or whatever). They're the real problem."

It's more disingenuous bullshit, of course. The Senate will reject each of these measures because right now the public polling seems to point outrage toward the House Republicans, as I've argued it ought to be. The Democratic Senate loses nothing by maintaining the party line calling for a full clean funding bill or nothing. Essentially the Senate Democrats aren't going to let the House Republicans hide the ugliest parts of what they're doing.

Attention is now turning toward the debt limit deadline, which is in approximately two weeks. (It's impossible to forecast exactly when the Treasury department will run out of money, since income and bills due fluctuate on a daily basis. But it's around October 17th.) If we blow that deadline, there's a real economic crisis, and very likely the beginning of another recession.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

No shutdown breakthrough. The 'summit meeting' of the top four members of Congress and the President yesterday seems to have had little impact. The latest House Republican tactic is to pass targeted funding bills focused on high-profile victims of the shutdown, such as the DC government, the National Institute of Health, national parks, etc. Basically anything that's getting attention in the press. The idea is for them to pass these limited bills in the House and send them to the Senate. If the Senate passes them, then some of the public furor over the shutdown diminishes, and it makes it look like things are getting done. If the Senate rejects them, then the House Republicans can point to the Senate and say "Well, they voted against funding the national parks (or whatever). They're the real problem."

It's more disingenuous bullshit, of course. The Senate will reject each of these measures because right now the public polling seems to point outrage toward the House Republicans, as I've argued it ought to be. The Democratic Senate loses nothing by maintaining the party line calling for a full clean funding bill or nothing. Essentially the Senate Democrats aren't going to let the House Republicans hide the ugliest parts of what they're doing.

Attention is now turning toward the debt limit deadline, which is in approximately two weeks. (It's impossible to forecast exactly when the Treasury department will run out of money, since income and bills due fluctuate on a daily basis. But it's around October 17th.) If we blow that deadline, there's a real economic crisis, and very likely the beginning of another recession.

The 17th is my birthday. Screw you, Congress. =/

[Callie Del Noire]

I've spent the last 2 hours trying to find a way to get cash for the month as some of my income streams most likely won't survive the next month. My disability kicked in.. the rest won't most likely do that next month.

So I'm having to use the policy my dad put on me when I was like.. NINE to get the money to make sure I can register my car, buy food and utility fees next month and seriously considering shutting down my cable partially or completely to further reduce my bill foot print. I seriously do not want to ask my family for help. It's bad enough I can't buy my nephew and nieces a present for christmas.. makes me feel like a fucking heel to know I'll be home for the holidays (folks already have pledged gas money for that) and not have ANYTHING to add to the pile at the tree.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

Shots fired...

I put this in its own thread cause we don't know enough to know if this has anything to do with the shut down, but it wouldn't surprise me, so I'm linking here.