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Author Topic: government shut down  (Read 13024 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #250 on: October 06, 2013, 11:42:27 AM »
Ninjaed by Callie.

It's also disingenuous to say that 'Congress, who passed [the ACA], doesn't want to have it,' when this whole thing is due to a select group of Representatives attempting to do an end run against a bill that might allow 99% their constituents to get affordable health care - because the 1% of their constituents that don't want that are funding the Representatives' campaigns.

Offline MasterMischief

Re: government shut down
« Reply #251 on: October 06, 2013, 12:18:12 PM »
It seems to me the conservative spin machine is in overdrive.  What is sad, is it appears to be working.  It never fails to amaze me how easily people will buy lies they want to hear.

Offline Sasquatch421

Re: government shut down
« Reply #252 on: October 06, 2013, 12:55:54 PM »
I agree with you to an extent but after realizing that odds are I won't be able to pay my bills when my GI Bill and Disability cut out next month without going to my family with my hat in hand has me wondering just how desperate I would become. Some folks are very very desperate and scared. I had friends furloughed all over the country, others are wondering if they will be required to work without pay (they do jobs vital for the interests of national security but when the money runs out..those jobs STILL have to be done).

I get VA benefits as well and they sent me an e-mail... They will continue to make payments until funding runs out how long everything lasts one can only guess... They all act like children fighting over a candy bar. The funny thing is that the only thing that gets brought up is Obamacare and not them trying to force through an OK on the Keystone XL. I do agree with one WW2 vet though. They need to be replaced from the top man down...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #253 on: October 06, 2013, 05:07:29 PM »
I get VA benefits as well and they sent me an e-mail... They will continue to make payments until funding runs out how long everything lasts one can only guess... They all act like children fighting over a candy bar. The funny thing is that the only thing that gets brought up is Obamacare and not them trying to force through an OK on the Keystone XL. I do agree with one WW2 vet though. They need to be replaced from the top man down...

I don't blame the President.. or the Senate on this one event. DO I think they (as in everyone in DC) need to sit down and discuss issues with a bit more honest attitude towards compromise. Yes. Do I think that the Senate and White House should let the Speaker of the House hold the entire process hostage over a law that was passed and certified legal because a small part of the party hates it? No.

If they blink this time..what will it be next time. 'Don't Ask/Don't Tell', the Keystone XL pipeline, or one of a dozen other things? Yeah.. holding the country hostage.. not happening. The Tea Party has become more and more radicals. They aren't a party in my opinion.. they are anti-government anarchists hiding behind the GOP banner. They want to tear it all down and roll us back to 1890. (Or earlier)

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #254 on: October 07, 2013, 01:22:29 AM »
Quote from: Callie Del Noire
If they blink this time..what will it be next time. 'Don't Ask/Don't Tell', the Keystone XL pipeline, or one of a dozen other things?

          Apparently, it would be the Keystone pipeline exactly, and easily more than a dozen other things .  In terms of the titles and wording the Repubs use, that is just on economic policy and social security...  Although some of them are probably deeply related to social engineering too, if you think about what they typically ask for under such titles.  Such as setting more bureaucracy upon child tax credits, which are already tiny relative to the cost of raising a child -- but this could effectively target lower class and minority families that tend to have more children.  That's just one that pops to my mind, out of this long list of titles which should normally be voted on as separate packages.

Quote from: Michael Cohen
... the GOP brinkmanship over Obamacare is nothing compared to what they are asking for this year in return for raising the debt limit. Unlike 2011, when they were demanding a dramatic reduction in government spending, they are now insisting on the full implementation of their policy agenda.

No, I'm not exaggerating.

Here are the GOP's demands for extending the nation's debt limit and preventing an economic catastrophe that would derail the fragile US recovery, likely spark a recession and fundamentally weaken America's economic competitiveness and in turn, national security:

One year debt limit increase
-Not a dollar amount increase, but suspending the debt limit until the end of December 2014 (similar to what we did earlier this year).
-Want the year-long to align with the year delay of Obamacare.

One year Obamacare delay

Tax reform instructions
-Similar to a bill we passed last fall, laying out broad from Ryan Budget principles for what tax reform should look like.
-Gives fast track authority for tax reform legislation.

Energy and regulatory reforms to promote economic growth
-Includes pretty much every jobs bill we have passed this year and last Congress
-All of these policies have important positive economic effects.
-Energy provisions: Keystone Pipeline, Coal Ash regulations, Offshore drilling, Energy production on federal lands, EPA Carbon regulations
-Regulatory reform: REINS Act, Regulatory process reform, Consent decree reform, Blocking Net Neutrality

Mandatory spending reforms
-Mostly from the sequester replacement bills we passed last year
-Federal Employee retirement reform
-Ending the Dodd-Frank bailout fund
-Transitioning CFPB funding to Appropriations
-Child Tax Credit Reform to prevent fraud
-Repealing the Social Services Block grant

Health spending reforms
-Means testing Medicare
-Repealing a Medicaid provider tax gimmick
-Tort reform
-Altering disproportion share hospitals
-Repealing the Public Health trust Fund

As Jonathan Chait points out, this is basically Mitt Romney's economic agenda. If that name doesn't ring a bell, Romney is the Republican presidential candidate who lost last year's presidential election by around 5 million votes. What Republicans are doing here is basically saying to the president (the guy who won by 5 million votes) "implement our policy agenda or we will cause a catastrophic debt default".

That isn't governing. It isn't democracy. It's a shakedown.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #255 on: October 07, 2013, 01:50:50 AM »
          Apparently, it would be the Keystone pipeline exactly, and easily more than a dozen other things .  In terms of the titles and wording the Repubs use, that is just on economic policy and social security...  Although some of them are probably deeply related to social engineering too, if you think about what they typically ask for under such titles.  Such as setting more bureaucracy upon child tax credits, which are already tiny relative to the cost of raising a child -- but this could effectively target lower class and minority families that tend to have more children.  That's just one that pops to my mind, out of this long list of titles which should normally be voted on as separate packages.

Wow.

And I thought I couldn't be more humiliated to be a republican.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #256 on: October 07, 2013, 02:07:14 AM »
Wow.

And I thought I couldn't be more humiliated to be a republican.

What's going on in Congress is a representative nightmare, and because of how the congressional districts are set up, they represent fringe views of the Tea Party which represent about 14% of the population.  There is validity in many conservative economic principles, just like there is validity in many liberal principles. 

Unfortunately, people will soon come to view any legitimate, moderate conservative approaches as being associated with the Tea Party and a dysfunctional congress.  I know most of the people in this thread recognize that there are positives and negatives to both conservative and liberal policies, but I am concerned that this 'hijacking' of Congress will make it less likely for the average American to keep an open mind to all points of view, especially as the midterm elections, and 2016 rolls around.

If anything, I often think that the Republican and Democratic parties are essentially two wings of the same bird, both run my special interests, and crippling the American voice by getting us fighting over silly things like the demeanor of a congressman.  If it wasn't for these soap-opera-like politics, I think people of very different political persuasions could really make progress.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 02:12:13 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Vekseid

Re: government shut down
« Reply #257 on: October 07, 2013, 03:19:33 AM »
Established organizations generally seek to cement their power legally, which is where the popular side of anti-regulation comes from, and the same established organizations will try to redirect this energy towards regulation that came from little besides popular support - or take said popular support and add additional complications to promote certain industries.

The libertarians opposing said regulation will also simultaneously be against campaign finance reform, and not see the slightest issue with that.

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #258 on: October 07, 2013, 05:11:21 AM »

Offline meikle

Re: government shut down
« Reply #259 on: October 07, 2013, 06:51:21 AM »
It seems to me the conservative spin machine is in overdrive.  What is sad, is it appears to be working.  It never fails to amaze me how easily people will buy lies they want to hear.
I had a guy tell me today that Obama is holding the debt situation hostage because he wants us all to spend $4000 a year on mandatory healthcare or he'll send us all to jail.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 06:52:36 AM by meikle »

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #260 on: October 07, 2013, 06:54:50 AM »
I had a guy tell me today that Obama is holding the debt situation hostage because he wants us all to spend $4000 a year on mandatory healthcare or he'll send us all to jail.

Hm.  Three meals a day, rent and utilities paid for, someone else doing the laundry, and plenty of time to read...

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #261 on: October 07, 2013, 07:00:41 AM »
Hm.  Three meals a day, rent and utilities paid for, someone else doing the laundry, and plenty of time to read...

I could think of better ways of spending my days than being made to share dinners, christmas, work, recreation and the building itself with thieves, wifebeaters, drug dealers and killers who don't have anything much to lose. And at the mercy of guards out of a San Quentin movie.  >:)

Offline meikle

Re: government shut down
« Reply #262 on: October 07, 2013, 07:16:37 AM »
I could think of better ways of spending my days than being made to share dinners, christmas, work, recreation and the building itself with thieves, wifebeaters, drug dealers and killers who don't have anything much to lose. And at the mercy of guards out of a San Quentin movie.  >:)

Most of the US can't afford an additional $4000/year in bills though so I guess we'd just be hanging out with other people who are in jail for being poor.

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #263 on: October 07, 2013, 07:21:36 AM »
Most of the US can't afford an additional $4000/year in bills though so I guess we'd just be hanging out with other people who are in jail for being poor.

Exactly my point.  For some people, debtor's prison (which would likely be a separate wing from the violent offenders anyways) would be an upgrade.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #264 on: October 07, 2013, 07:21:55 AM »
Yeah, I didn't imagine we'd go to the same kind of "jail" as Paris Hilton did when she was penned for going past the speed limit.

You and me and a thousand more would land in the chain gang - or getting face slapped, stolen from and utilized by the guards and pimps.

Offline meikle

Re: government shut down
« Reply #265 on: October 07, 2013, 07:29:40 AM »
Yeah, I didn't imagine we'd go to the same kind of "jail" as Paris Hilton did when she was penned for going past the speed limit.

You and me and a thousand more would land in the chain gang - or getting face slapped, stolen from and utilized by the guards and pimps.

Most of the US prison population are non-violent drug offenders anyway , and if you just threw in "everyone who can't afford a make-believe $4000 bill", the totally normal people would vastly outnumber violent criminals, moreso than they already do!  I'm not sure the prison community would remain as it if it suddenly had millions of new inmates (up from about 200,000 federal inmates presently) who had never hurt anyone in their life.

Offline Lord Mayerling

Re: government shut down
« Reply #266 on: October 07, 2013, 08:14:38 AM »
Hm.  Three meals a day, rent and utilities paid for, someone else doing the laundry, and plenty of time to read...

Oh, and free healthcare.  ;)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #267 on: October 07, 2013, 08:19:09 AM »
Oh, and free healthcare.  ;)

Exercise too. Maybe you'd even get to have your partner locked in the same jail.  :D

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #268 on: October 07, 2013, 08:52:33 AM »
I could think of better ways of spending my days than being made to share dinners, christmas, work, recreation and the building itself with thieves, wifebeaters, drug dealers and killers who don't have anything much to lose. And at the mercy of guards out of a San Quentin movie.  >:)
          It may depend some on exactly where you go to jail, but...  I know someone who spent a few months inside.  For him -- though he was around 60 somewhere -- this is how it was:  (And he hadn't even been convicted on actual violence charges to be placed there -- but some states only have so many places to "detain" people still undergoing trial, period.)

          Tthe air conditioning was extremely cold at all hours, and something about it aggravated his respiratory problems to a near chronic state.  The bedding was lumpy and uncomfortable, it aggravated his back problems.  The food was insubstantial and rarely included fresh fruit or vegetables; it was pretty short on real, edible meat too -- much of what it did have was well out of date. 

He was bullied by the guards and sometimes thrown in solitary confinement for the slightest complaint or bit of sarcasm (albeit partly, because people took it for a given that he was guilty of child abuse). 

Reading materials of his choice were not available for some weeks after entering, until a lawyer or someone managed to deliver them.  Then, they were later sometimes confiscated (along with some of his personal writing) in the name of "cleaning up" his cell when he says there was no unusual disorder to be found...  Writing is only allowed with very short, dull pencils, because pens could supposedly count as weapons.

The actual medical care is limited by budget constraints, lack of supplies generally, substandard and outdated materials (much like the food), and doctors who are forced to accept that many patients with persistent issues, simply will not be allowed out of the facility to get even periodic care in real medical facilities which they really need.

           And all that is before you get to personal threats, influence of gang violence or drugs and other contraband economies on the daily life in some facilities (though junk food taken from the prison store and distributed through inflated prices or demands for services, is one contraband that he considers vital in light of the food situation), and the matter of too frequently untouched sexual abuse -- which may make a nice fantasy, but I doubt you'd want to live with it for years without picking your partners and their kinks.  He hinted that there was a fair bit of that, and he wasn't happy about it but people do it "to survive."

/ digression on point of fact, but it's often not a lark, as far as I understand it. .
       
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 08:58:31 AM by kylie »

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #269 on: October 07, 2013, 10:01:23 AM »
     Levity break...  Well, more or less.  Can't quite escape finding some absurdity around all this.

Tea Party Leaders Announce Support For Deal In Exchange For Malia Obama.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #270 on: October 07, 2013, 10:51:40 AM »
     Levity break...  Well, more or less.  Can't quite escape finding some absurdity around all this.

Tea Party Leaders Announce Support For Deal In Exchange For Malia Obama.

 ;D

I remember how someone of the Chinese leadership said, during the major debt ceiling crisis about a year before the re-election of Obama, something to the effect of "You guys better get your act together in Congress. We the world can't have it like this!" - the relish in speaking down at the U.S. on behalf of global society was very evident; most of the time you only ever hear America taking that kind of tone in global conversations.

As the country is getting closer to the debt ceiling again, nobody should be surprised if there are more admonitions of this kind.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:04:40 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #271 on: October 07, 2013, 12:13:30 PM »
     Hmm, somewhere in the Guardian someone said the Chinese government is rather quiet this time -- but maybe they've decided it's pointless to be vocal after the last time, and they're just doing what they're gonna do. 

That might make some strategic sense too, if it's anything they prefer to leave as gradual or a surprise.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #272 on: October 07, 2013, 12:42:10 PM »
And the lying BS continues.

http://www.conservativeactionalerts.com/2012/02/obama-pulls-combat-pay-for-u-s-troops/

Fun note.. the CONSERVATIVE nutjobs that are currently playing merry hell with the government are the ones who PASSED the 2012 NDAA. IF it was anyone taking combat pay.. its' the Tea Party group.. but let me say this. THIS IS NOT HAPPENING.

     Hmm, somewhere in the Guardian someone said the Chinese government is rather quiet this time -- but maybe they've decided it's pointless to be vocal after the last time, and they're just doing what they're gonna do. 

That might make some strategic sense too, if it's anything they prefer to leave as gradual or a surprise.

I think the Chinese will be waiting to see how close to the brink the Republicans are going to take us before our biggest foreign debt holder speaks up on the issue. They WILL say something at least in back channels because.. the Chinese are pragmatic and very very political in their outlook. They won't go big if 'backroom' statements can bring the point across. I can see Speaker Boehmer (sp?) getting a simple comment from the Chinese ambassador or trade attache or the President getting the message.

Personally.. I don't think they will support the brinkmanship of the Tea Party. The TP is extremely antagonistic, inflexible and downright xenophobic at it's core. They are a step back at least forty years in some ways. They (China) would rather deal with government that understands a more 'pragmatic' outlook in affairs.

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #273 on: October 07, 2013, 12:47:30 PM »
I can see Speaker Boehmer (sp?)

Boehner.  I was going to point out how spell-check makes me snicker like a 13-year-old, but then I saw your spelling comes up with Beerbohm as a correction.  (I take laughter where I can find it these days.)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #274 on: October 07, 2013, 01:20:53 PM »
Boehner.  I was going to point out how spell-check makes me snicker like a 13-year-old, but then I saw your spelling comes up with Beerbohm as a correction.  (I take laughter where I can find it these days.)

I think of him as 'That monumental procedural hijacking tool.'