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Author Topic: government shut down  (Read 13032 times)

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Offline Serephino

Re: government shut down
« Reply #225 on: October 03, 2013, 02:00:58 PM »
My boyfriend said it was bound to happen...  Desperate people do desperate things, and the people who just lost income because of the shut down know who's to blame.

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #226 on: October 03, 2013, 02:03:22 PM »
My boyfriend said it was bound to happen...  Desperate people do desperate things, and the people who just lost income because of the shut down know who's to blame.


That's what I was thinking, but we don't KNOW it has anything to do with the shut down, so I don't want to commit to that train of thought yet. Crazy people also do crazy things.

Offline Serephino

Re: government shut down
« Reply #227 on: October 03, 2013, 02:13:36 PM »
That's what I was thinking, but we don't KNOW it has anything to do with the shut down, so I don't want to commit to that train of thought yet. Crazy people also do crazy things.

True.  I suppose anything is possible.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #228 on: October 03, 2013, 03:19:10 PM »
So apparently FEMA is recalling some furloughed workers because of Karen being set to hit the gulf coast on Saturday.

PS: I know it's terrible to make light of situations like ths shut down, but am I the only one who smiles just a little bit at the idea of next season's News Room covering the shut down and whatnot? >.>

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #229 on: October 05, 2013, 12:55:57 AM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/10/04/dems-move-to-force-republicans-to-reopen-the-government/

It's kind of misleading.. since it's Democrats and MODERATE Republicans.. but I appreciate that at least some members of my party can pull things together to work with their peers. And acknowledge that they aren't going to miss out on their promises.

Offline ladyelizabeth

Re: government shut down
« Reply #230 on: October 05, 2013, 01:23:07 AM »
Maybe it is because some of the Republicans are getting "assaulted" and a woman basically committed Suicide by Cop in front of her kid.  *sigh*  Just not a good situation at all, for either side.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #231 on: October 05, 2013, 02:46:04 AM »
A man doused himself with gasoline and set fire to himself on the National Mall yesterday. According to one of the eyewitnesses in the video clip bundled with the article under the link, "he was yelling something about voters' rights" so it sounds like a deliberate protest or reaction to the situation on the Hill, though we can't know about the hows and whys until someone gets to talk to the man himself. He's now in hospital with extensive burns to his skin.

Setting oneself alight, that's a mode of protest that used to happen in dictatorships or under foreign occupation.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 02:47:41 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #232 on: October 05, 2013, 05:39:11 AM »
          Visually it's dramatic and maybe "looks similar" to Tibetan monks' self-immolation or some such, but...  I'm not sure I see the point of comparison with dictatorships or occupations, exactly. 

          Obviously there are quite a few people who want to reduce what they perceive as central government overreach (and maybe a very vocal few who would have been much happier if the South had been able to stay out of the Union)...  But the best case of historical comparison in the US might be with the Native Americans -- whose previously separate territories were occupied and sometimes that illegally even under the scope of US law.  But, I don't think too many of them are going there.  If they were, I can't imagine why they would start over this and not much, much earlier.

          There are also many countries where in fact the central government has much more uniform power over the whole country.  For small examples, Chinese students are surprised when I tell them each US state government can make its own rules about age of consent or age of driving eligibility.  Or you could look at France, the UK or Japan, or several smaller countries (particularly post-colonial ones) and see how much power is still vested in their capitals -- how much of the industry is in that one city, how many people practically have to move to the center to find jobs, how many provinces rely hugely on investment policies determined periodically by the center. 

          I think there are lots of places where central government is much more influential overall than in the US.  Some of those places are much more violent (e.g. contemporary Nigerian history), but many others seem more patient and functional to me than current US politics.  If the issue were merely natural resistance to central authority, I would expect the more centralized, more bureaucratic and uniform countries to have stronger chaos in the streets (and I don't mean just a few French farmers blocking the highways in protest now and then).  Maybe I'm just not close enough...  The British did have some riots not all that long ago, but then so did the US with WTO etc...  Still, the Japanese government is structured so that they can redo the leadership every few months if they want, so I'm not surprised if I don't hear much about high-profile demonstrations like this there too often...
 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 05:41:03 AM by kylie »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #233 on: October 05, 2013, 06:12:08 AM »
          Visually it's dramatic and maybe "looks similar" to Tibetan monks' self-immolation or some such, but...  I'm not sure I see the point of comparison with dictatorships or occupations, exactly.   

Obviously the US isn't a dictatorship or commando state to compare with China, or under occupation or heavy foreign domination, like Czechoslovakia in the seventies (there were a couple of instances of self-immolation as protest in Prague, even years after the Warsaw pact had invaded in 1968). But because self-burning is a potential act of fast public suicide, where the protester really stakes his/her life and body on the wish to make a point, and solidly risking death or lifelong disfigurement even if they would be taken to hospital, there is a very high threshold against attempting it unless one feels the situation looks absolutely desperate. I think that makes it quite different from going out into the street with a placard, posting a Youtube video or arranging a sit-in. It's also typically a solitary act.

   
Quote
       Obviously there are quite a few people who want to reduce what they perceive as central government overreach (and maybe a very vocal few who would have been much happier if the South had been able to stay out of the Union)...  But the best case of historical comparison in the US might be with the Native Americans -- whose previously separate territories were occupied and sometimes that illegally even under the scope of US law.  But, I don't think too many of them are going there.  If they were, I can't imagine why they would start over this and not much, much earlier.

          There are also many countries where in fact the central government has much more uniform power over the whole country.  For small examples, Chinese students are surprised when I tell them each US state government can make its own rules about age of consent or age of driving eligibility.  Or you could look at France, the UK or Japan, or several smaller countries (particularly post-colonial ones) and see how much power is still vested in their capitals -- how much of the industry is in that one city, how many people practically have to move to the center to find jobs, how many provinces rely hugely on investment policies determined periodically by the center. 

          I think there are lots of places where central government is much more influential overall than in the US.  Some of those places are much more violent (e.g. contemporary Nigerian history), but many others seem more patient and functional to me than current US politics.  If the issue were merely natural resistance to central authority, I would expect the more centralized, more bureaucratic and uniform countries to have stronger chaos in the streets (and I don't mean just a few French farmers blocking the highways in protest now and then).  Maybe I'm just not close enough...  The British did have some riots not all that long ago, but then so did the US with WTO etc...  Still, the Japanese government is structured so that they can redo the leadership every few months if they want, so I'm not surprised if I don't hear much about high-profile demonstrations like this there too often...


Just a quick reply, cause I'm going into town in a while: in most democratic countries parliament can't make the state apparatus ground to a halt sharply just by deadlocking the budget negotiations, whether it's by serious political discussion or by filibustering. In places like the UK or most of Europe, the cabinet will have a majority in parliament on its side by default, so it will be able to anchor the broad outlines of the budget with its own people at least, and hopefully some of it with the opposition too. If it's a minority government, it will have adapted the budget to what is feasible to get through parliament and everyone will have done some preparations and homework before the budget proposal lands on the floor.

If it's not a parliamentary system or not even a democracy, the executive branch in a country would typically be strong enough to keep state and public business going a bit past the date when a new budget should have been voted in. This kind of thing typically only happens in some really poor countries with low state liquidity and low GDP (like in Puerto Rico in 2006, though PR is not a sovereign state). I can kind of see that some Americans would say "it's better to have the state activities fall to the ground sometimes  than to risk oppression" - in this case, risk funding of the ACA including abortions being made through public money and public insurance, and made locally in the state - but I doubt that's how most people, as citizens or ordinary workers, emplyees and taxpayers see it. When the central government shuts down with a loud thud, it soon starts to pull everything down with it. Including people's day-to-day lives and routines.

On a plane of political ideas, I think it comes down to whether the state (and the central spheres of authority) would be seen as ultimately just a necessary evil - and a potential fuckup douchebag which should ideally be restricted to voting on the colour of parking meters in the Capitol's car park - or as a way of channelling people's aspirations and taking on challenges that are too big and too costly for any one family or town to (always) take on by itself.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 06:38:11 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #234 on: October 05, 2013, 06:54:15 AM »
Quote from: GaggedLouise
Obviously the US isn't a dictatorship or commando state to compare with China, or under occupation or heavy foreign domination, like Czechoslovakia in the seventies (there were a couple of instances of self-immolation as protest in Prague, even years after the Warsaw pact had invaded in 1968). But because self-burning is a potential act of fast public suicide, where the protester really stakes his/her life and body on the wish to make a point, and solidly risking death or lifelong disfigurement even if they would be taken to hospital, there is a very high threshold against attempting it unless one feels the situation looks absolutely desperate. I think that makes it quite different from going out into the street with a placard, posting a Youtube video or arranging a sit-in. It's also typically a solitary act.

          Sure, I can see there are some people who feel quite strongly about it.  I'm not sure exactly how much this is a "new" thing in American politics.  Historically, there were huge protests/ some riots over NAFTA and WTO...  There were groups that felt pretty dramatic action was necessary on race or religion, for better or worse, such as the Black Panthers (I haven't studied them much but I get the impression they were rather serious)...  There are a few big cases of domestic terror like Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City...  Still plenty of little "militia" outfits hanging out in the background, or in some cases being busted for conspiracy before they could make a public fireworks display...  This isn't the first issue where anyone's been willing to do something "crazy."  I suppose I'm left wondering, could it really be many more people than the ones before.  (We  have a hard time getting many people that excited over oil wars or financial crises that did clearly defund the whole country such that we need a whole bunch of central spending...  So why now?  Ahem.)

           I just don't see what you mean by saying, this was only supposed to happen in dictatorships and occupations.  Do you mean, oh that doesn't make the US look good either?  Can't argue with that.  It doesn't make the US objectively more of a dictatorship or occupation just because it's happened, though.  And thank heavens not.  We have enough to clean up already in the way of power/wealth hoarding, and I don't believe it 'started' with Obama at all (my vote on the causes is more toward Reagan, but anyway).
 

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #235 on: October 05, 2013, 08:39:20 AM »
Reading over the stretch of these last posts I see they could get misread, so just to clarify my take on it: we don't know, so far, what motivated the guy at the National Mall, but my gut feeling when I heard about it was that he was likely protesting against self-entitled senators, house members and political lobbyists cockblocking the nation's public business, and an increasing part of private business, for reasons of political sniping and bickering against an act that's already been signed into law for some time - and in the process, putting millions of people's work and wages in immediate jeopardy. While those people themselves continue to lift money for, in a way, doing nothing.

He may have felt what went on in the House was just the last straw. If he was calling out something about "voters' rights" I would reckon he was implying that the guys in Congress did not represent the voters, did not work for the voters anymore.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:42:19 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #236 on: October 05, 2013, 07:17:46 PM »
I am aware of the historical basis of setting oneself on fire, but in this situation, what does it accomplish?  He seems more like someone who really needed to seek mental/emotional help - and who did this more as a cry for help due to his internal struggles.  The US is far from a dictatorship, and there's still an awful lot we can be grateful for.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #237 on: October 05, 2013, 08:01:40 PM »
I am aware of the historical basis of setting oneself on fire, but in this situation, what does it accomplish?  He seems more like someone who really needed to seek mental/emotional help - and who did this more as a cry for help due to his internal struggles.  The US is far from a dictatorship, and there's still an awful lot we can be grateful for.

Whether the individual that decides to set him/herself on fire in public achieves anything, that's something they can't know in advance. The unknown man who set fire to himself in Tunisia in December 2010 by climbing an electricity pylon died on the spot without any sense of result, but soon enough the news of his act began spreading and became a trigger for other people's protests, leading into the Arab Spring. Actually the guy who stepped out before a line of tanks in Beijing in 1989 didn't achieve anything lasting at that time and place either, except proving the presence of amazing courage. He could have been driven over like a piece of cardboard the next minute. He didn't manage to stop the tanks, they rolled on after he had gone, he "just" held them up a bit by his personal force, and the photos of him have remained largely unknown (and forbidden, of course) in China. I'm not saying the guy at the National Mall was a hero or like a man rushing into enemy fire, but most likely he will have consciously decided, in some sense, to do this; he didn't act on just a whim or out of a sudden mental disruption.

Quote from: gaggedLouise
Obviously the US isn't a dictatorship or commando state to compare with China, or under occupation or heavy foreign domination
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:27:10 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #238 on: October 05, 2013, 09:35:02 PM »
As a developed country, we really don't need people setting themselves on fire to galvanize a movement.  I can certainly understand organized civil disobedience as an effective means of protesting an injustice, but willfully inflicting self-violence is nothing but detrimental.  I would like to think that most Americans would favor a civilized solution, rather than a mindlessly mob uprising like the Arab Spring.  There are many avenues for grassroots political parties to develop - and if enough people felt this way, we may finally be able to do away with our two-party political system. 

Sensationalist demonstrators like this man do nothing but incite raw emotion, without logic, and will ultimately do more harm to our structured society, than benefit.

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #239 on: October 05, 2013, 09:45:22 PM »
I think a better point to make about self-immolation as a form of protest is that the person willing to do that has to honestly think that they have absolutely nothing left to live for, and that maybe - just maybe - this final gesture will finally get through to someone, because nothing else has. 

It should never have to come to that.

Offline MistermeTopic starter

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #240 on: October 05, 2013, 09:52:59 PM »
Here is a question to ponder. Why are we spending money to shut down national monument like the ww2 monument that is privately funded. That makes a lot of sense huh?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #241 on: October 06, 2013, 01:30:14 AM »
As a developed country, we really don't need people setting themselves on fire to galvanize a movement.  I can certainly understand organized civil disobedience as an effective means of protesting an injustice, but willfully inflicting self-violence is nothing but detrimental.  I would like to think that most Americans would favor a civilized solution, rather than a mindlessly mob uprising like the Arab Spring.  There are many avenues for grassroots political parties to develop - and if enough people felt this way, we may finally be able to do away with our two-party political system. 

Sensationalist demonstrators like this man do nothing but incite raw emotion, without logic, and will ultimately do more harm to our structured society, than benefit.

And allowing a small portion of one political party hold the entire process hostage helps?

I agree with you to an extent but after realizing that odds are I won't be able to pay my bills when my GI Bill and Disability cut out next month without going to my family with my hat in hand has me wondering just how desperate I would become. Some folks are very very desperate and scared. I had friends furloughed all over the country, others are wondering if they will be required to work without pay (they do jobs vital for the interests of national security but when the money runs out..those jobs STILL have to be done).

That gnaws at a person. It eats at them. Makes them desperate and wild.

And the men responsible still get THEIR paycheck. All six figures of it in some cases.

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #242 on: October 06, 2013, 02:40:40 AM »
Here is a question to ponder. Why are we spending money to shut down national monument like the ww2 monument that is privately funded. That makes a lot of sense huh?


Oh god. We shut down   a WW2 veterans monument! Let's all worry about that so we can all just forget about the 800,000 other people who've been furloughed and aren't getting a pay check!


Sure there are single mothers who have had to take  days off from their jobs since head start is considered non essential  but hey! Some Veterans didn't get to see a monument on vacation! We should all be outraged about this and not about the whole  head start being cancelled thing!


I feel bad for these veterans. They deserve to be respected and honored but it's ridiculous to watch some  politicians  use this as a talking point when there are stores on military bases shut down because of them right now.

Some people are all for shutting the government down except for when it shuts down things they like.



Also. Hilariously enough the government shutdown means  new gun permits will stop being processed soon. I'm sure the GOP's constituents will love that when they find out.

Offline MistermeTopic starter

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #243 on: October 06, 2013, 04:25:00 AM »
The point I was trying to make is that Obama and his goons are spending money on stuff that is not even funded by the government. They are being stupid with the decisions they make and saying "we are winning this battle with the GOP. The house has offered to keep the government open just do amendments to obamacare. I say keep the good stuff that is in obamacare and get rid of all the taxes that are being assessed with it. It's sad that congress , who passed obamacare , doesn't even want to have it. They say that they are not getting a 72% incentive when even the dems in the house say they are. There are parts of obamacare that ever Barack doesn't want but says everyone else ( we the people) must abide by.

Offline meikle

Re: government shut down
« Reply #244 on: October 06, 2013, 07:02:06 AM »
Quote
The house has offered to keep the government open just do amendments to obamacare.

The ACA is law.  It is already a law.  It is already a law.  The time to change it has passed, and maybe there will be opportunities in the future, but what is going on right now is not reasonable.  It's hostage taking, and it's the American people who are suffering it.

Here's a counterpoint:

"The Senate has offered to keep the government open, just fire every Tea Party Republican!"

But that would be insane, right?  The same kind of insane as holding the continued function of the government hostage to shut down a bill that you already passed that you don't like anymore.

"We won't shut down the government" should not be considered a fucking bargaining chip.  That's their job, providing a functional government for Americans.

Quote
And the men responsible still get THEIR paycheck. All six figures of it in some cases.

Funny, isn't it?  "I need my paycheck, and that's the bottom line." - Rep. Renee Ellmers (R-NC)
Likewise: ďIíve got a nice house and a kid in college, and Iíll tell you we cannot handle it. Giving our paycheck away when you still worked and earned it? Thatís just not going to fly.Ē - Rep. Lee Terry (R-NE)

I really hope that this kind of thing -- this kind of hypocrisy, this apathy and disdain for the well-being of their constituents as long as they're in the clear -- will get some people thinking about the sort of people they've chosen to represent them.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 07:12:30 AM by meikle »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: government shut down
« Reply #245 on: October 06, 2013, 07:18:59 AM »
The World War 2 monument is administrated by the National Park Service.  This service, among other things, provides security and maintenance to the site.  With a government shut down the National Park Service cannot secure the monument from vandalism or protect tourists and visitors on site.  So the monument has to be closed so that damage to property and person do not occur.  So while there may be private funding to the site, the National Park Service is in charge of day-to-day activity.  Since they are closed, so is the monument.

On the other point, that the Republican party is willing to open the government to only handle amendments to The Affordable Care Act is laughable.  Essentially the Republicans are willing to allow an institutional funded by our tax dollars to perform only enough to carry out their desires and wants, not handle the activities we pay the institution to perform. 

Offline meikle

Re: government shut down
« Reply #246 on: October 06, 2013, 07:31:26 AM »
The World War 2 monument is administrated by the National Park Service.

Here's a useful link for other people who are curious about what's shutting down (and why it impacts them in ways they don't like):

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/09/politics/government-shutdown-impact/

My favorite part is that the United States Court System only has funds to run for 10 days following the start of a shutdown, so that'll be cool.  Also, the Office of Government Ethics is shut down, that's pretty funny.

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #247 on: October 06, 2013, 07:39:55 AM »
Here's a useful link for other people who are curious about what's shutting down (and why it impacts them in ways they don't like):

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2013/09/politics/government-shutdown-impact/

My favorite part is that the United States Court System only has funds to run for 10 days following the start of a shutdown, so that'll be cool.  Also, the Office of Government Ethics is shut down, that's pretty funny.


 ;)

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Offline Ebb

Re: government shut down
« Reply #248 on: October 06, 2013, 11:35:17 AM »
The point I was trying to make is that Obama and his goons....

In my experience, use of language like this is a pretty good signpost that productive discussion is going to be impossible. You might want to consider toning it down if you're interested in having people engage with your opinions.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #249 on: October 06, 2013, 11:39:45 AM »
The point I was trying to make is that Obama and his goons are spending money on stuff that is not even funded by the government. They are being stupid with the decisions they make and saying "we are winning this battle with the GOP. The house has offered to keep the government open just do amendments to obamacare. I say keep the good stuff that is in obamacare and get rid of all the taxes that are being assessed with it. It's sad that congress , who passed obamacare , doesn't even want to have it. They say that they are not getting a 72% incentive when even the dems in the house say they are. There are parts of obamacare that ever Barack doesn't want but says everyone else ( we the people) must abide by.

While I would like to comment, I won't be if language like that is used. That tells me that there is a rigid ness of thinking that has already cast one side as the bad guy.