Toxic Masculinity

[Remiel]

Toxic Masculinity.  The term has become a feminist rallying cry, referring to culturally-enforced stereotypes of men and male behavior that are not only harmful to women and to society, but to men themselves.

The term is used to encompass everything negative about masculinity, from the age-old adage "real men don't cry" to the culture of sexual entitlement which spawned the likes of Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian.

But is there anything positive about masculinity? 

What about:

- toughness, resilience, grit, being able to take a beating and continue on, being able to get up after being knocked down?
- power -- being able to use controlled, measured force and violence in order to achieve a specific goal (such as in a sporting event)?
- strength -- the ability to protect one's self and one's loved ones from harm? the ability to stand up to a bully, or to defend the weak and downtrodden?
- self-sacrifice -- intentionally putting one's self at the risk of peril for the benefit for others?

Are these "masculine" qualities?  If so, can women be "masculine"? 

I hope to hear from a variety of perspectives on this topic, to hear from both men and women (and cis and trans). 

[Avis habilis]

But is there anything positive about masculinity? 

Of course there is. The people talking about toxic masculinity have never claimed otherwise. If they had, they would just be calling it masculinity.

If I point out that there's such a thing as spoiled food, there's no honest way to claim that I was even suggesting there's no such thing as edible food.

[Eye of Horus]

But is there anything positive about masculinity?

Very much so. The idea of “toxic masculinity” doesn’t refer to the harm that can arise from all traits that you might consider “masculine”, just from a very specific stereotype of it, one which is over-idealised by society and media. To paint in very broad strokes using the examples you gave above: if masculinity is toughness, power, strength and self-sacrifice, then toxic masculinity is the belief that you must have power, in all things and at all times, and if you do not then you are less than a “real” man.

Are these "masculine" qualities?  If so, can women be "masculine"?

Of course. Masculine and feminine are really just two bell curves (that overlap quite a bit), and although you can point at general patterns, an individual person can fall just about anywhere on the graph.

[Tolvo]

What is or isn't masculine or feminine(Or androgynous for that matter) is also very subjective and varies from person to person. More often it is about common things to feel a connection with others over. Fishing isn't inherently masculine but people do like to use it for male bonding. However women could do the same and use it for feminine bonding, people could fish together without any focus on expression or gender. A lot of things relating to these concepts are about expression, communication, community, and socializing. Toxic masculinity would be forms that are toxic, harmful. Many forms of toxic masculinity have been listed but being masculine is not inherently toxic. Simply the status quo has been a very toxic form of masculinity. There are even what people could call toxic feminimity, common with some forms of radical feminism(There are positive forms of radical feminism and negative forms). The idea that a woman is only a woman if she was born with a uterus, can carry children, was assigned female at birth, wears the right clothes, is "Appropriately feminine looking," etc. Usually those are rooted in cissexism and transphobia but also target a lot of gender nonconforming women and women who do not adhere to gender roles.

[Twisted Crow]

Heh. I get these talks from time to time with both Male family and some feminist friends... and the direction I always have to take are two different roads, yet both layered with eggshells. The unfortunate reality is that this is something that we humans persist that cannot be blamed exclusively on one sex or another. We tend to persist it in our own ways while women have other ways of doing it. And I don't even think we even realize we are doing it a lot of the time, really.

Media can easily be blamed for this in a big way, as soceity collectively stocks and "cans" what is considered manly or not manly. It does not help that we are told that we "shouldn't" bring these up at various moments (like when women are having problems, or when the burden of it should be dealt with cliche ones that I disagree with:

-Men don't/shouldn't/cannot cry. To cry is to show weakness.
-Men cannot/shouldn't/etc. be emotionally or physically vulnerable. Also collectively considered weakness.

Fiction does this a lot, too. Some time ago, I once mentioned in another thread how men are often portrayed in romance novels, movies and the like, often depicting men as these lovesick martyrs that are expected to shed their humanity, all of their hopes, dreams and ambitions for "love" or the sake of a women's pleasure. See pretty much every romance movie ever. Even some of the ones I like. Again, I won't pretend not to have sinned here... as I have entertained writing stories like this on Elliquiy.

However, it should be said that these things are realistically untenable. It is an impossible standard that men and women unknowingly both seem to set for men. Men perpetuate it often because that is what we are often fed constantly on what we "should be" in our youth. One of the few ways we can "safely" vent our problems is through the filter of comedy (either good or bad comedy). Women might also perpetuate it for similar reasons, I would figure. Outside looking in, I imagine they either see their fathers and construct an image on what a man "should be" or whatever they might view men portrayed in various media. While some might claim to be "fighting to change it", sadly many of them even still enforce a standard of masculinity. They do it all of the time and they don't even realize it.

Sentences that start up like this:

"Real men like..."
"A real man does..."
"If you were a real man..."

These easily contribute to this very problem. Which is very difficult to refrain from doing in today's society. After all, I sometimes catch myself looking at the can label instead of looking to myself on what might define man. It is troubling to me, because I feel like a bit of an enigma when I am the lens in this subject.

[Twisted Crow]

Also, thanks for making this topic, Remi!

[Remiel]

Of course there is. The people talking about toxic masculinity have never claimed otherwise. If they had, they would just be calling it masculinity.

If I point out that there's such a thing as spoiled food, there's no honest way to claim that I was even suggesting there's no such thing as edible food.

I'm not so sure.  I've seen radical feminist forums (the webcomic Sinfest, for example, has definitely taken a radical feminist turn in the last few years) that seem to suggest that anything masculine is bad, and that all people--men and women--should be more feminine.

And it depends on whether the adjective "toxic" in "toxic masculity" is used as a qualifier ("I hate Nokia Smart Phones" -- not all Smart Phones are made by Nokia) or a descriptor ("I hate stupid Smart Phones" -- all Smart Phones, in this instance, are stupid)

[Lustful Bride]

I'm not so sure.  I've seen radical feminist forums (the webcomic Sinfest, for example, has definitely taken a radical feminist turn in the last few years) that seem to suggest that anything masculine is bad, and that all people--men and women--should be more feminine.

And it depends on whether the adjective "toxic" in "toxic masculity" is used as a qualifier ("I hate Nokia Smart Phones" -- not all Smart Phones are made by Nokia) or a descriptor ("I hate stupid Smart Phones" -- all Smart Phones, in this instance, are stupid)

I think part of the problem is that so much Toxic Masculinity is put on display and talked about that most people don't know there can be positive masculinity. Some people may have also been harmed by Toxic Masculinity, either directly or indirectly, and just developed a negative opinion of anything masculine as a response.

[Remiel]

Then that begs the question:  what is Toxic Masculinity, exactly?  And where does it come from?  And is there anything we can do about it?

[Azuresun]

But is there anything positive about masculinity? 

What about:

- toughness, resilience, grit, being able to take a beating and continue on, being able to get up after being knocked down?
- power -- being able to use controlled, measured force and violence in order to achieve a specific goal (such as in a sporting event)?
- strength -- the ability to protect one's self and one's loved ones from harm? the ability to stand up to a bully, or to defend the weak and downtrodden?
- self-sacrifice -- intentionally putting one's self at the risk of peril for the benefit for others?

The thing is, women can do all of that too, that's fairly self-evident. But I get the impression that there's much more resistance to men encroaching on "feminine" territory and behaviour. So we end up with a situation where women can do anything men can (and are often praised as empowered when they do), but men can't always do anything women can (and may be sneered at or regarded with suspicion if they do).

In general, I think that there's been a large amount of effort put into sending a message to women that "you can be whatever you want, you don't have to adhere to old stereotypes", which is good. But not much effort put into getting that same message to men--after all, men have the world at their feet by default, why would they need any guidance? So the old-school image of "manly" is seen as comical at best or actively dangerous at worst, but there isn't a coherent alternative beyond a vague "don't be a dick" philosophy, where the definition of "being a dick" is wildly variable depending on who you ask.

Something else I think might be a factor is a woman's perceived value being traditionally based on what they are, while men's value is based on what they do (or to put it another way, what they can take). In the old conception, a man's very masculinity is a delicate thing that could be lost at any moment if his wife cheats on him, if he hesitates to go over the top of the trenches, or if a business rival gets one over on him. It probably goes without saying this isn't a healthy way to regard yourself--but at least the rules are clear, and that will still have an appeal in the absence of a coherent alternative.

[Tolvo]

Is Sinfest popular? I had to look up what that is. I've never heard of this as someone who has been in online feminist communities for years. A better example if you want someone popular you might want to mention instead Chelsea Cain and her comics specifically her comic Man-Eaters. However she has been heavily criticized by many feminists for her bioessentialist views regarding sex and gender and her pseudo-cis woman supremacy in her comics. It got to the point where she started putting critiques of her on the walls of the concentration camps for people who menstruate(Which until after the backlash were all cis women and no one else until she added one trans character hastily rushed in) in her comics.

Typically the idea that all men are evil or that all masculinity is toxic is the fringe, mainstream feminism does have problems. But this is a fringe that is generally very unwelcome, it is why certain old school feminists are not really heralded anymore since many have very regressive views about sex and gender who stayed in the philosophies of the second wave(Hatred of all sex work, desire for gender conformity, etc). Though there are feminists who are elderly who transitioned to the third wave and who are now moving onto to even more current mainstream forms of feminism that are improving further.

[Wolfling72]

What most consider "masculine" behavior is, to me, no more than a cultural construct applied across the board to those who happen to have that dangly bit. It is why those of us who exhibit traits which are considered opposite of our sex organs are looked at with an idea that we are going to screw it up so that they can prove that we are not "real" wo/men. I believe all positive traits whether feminine or masculine should be embraced by anyone who wants to.

That being said, toxic masculinity is the thing which allows some men to believe that their way is the only way and that power is an answer to every question. What people forget is that women can exhibit these same traits...and for some odd reason are considered strong as if a vagina renders the negativity moot.

I think men as a whole are taught what they know by family and societal "norms" both good and bad, but i am not sure that any toxic outlooks should have a gender attached to it. Especially when any gender expression can take on those same traits.

I was taught: never trust a man to stay. Never cry where you can be seen, work hard and take care of your family, mental health help should not be needed, as that marks you as weak. Be willing to fight anyone, always.

Most  of that is toxic, yes? And some of that is considered "masculine". *shrugs* I just do not see it as a gender expression. It is people and culture.

[Remiel]

it is why certain old school feminists are not really heralded anymore since many have very regressive views about sex and gender who stayed in the philosophies of the second wave(Hatred of all sex work, desire for gender conformity, etc).

Yeah, I was recently introduced to the terms TERF (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) and SWERF (Sex Worker-Exclusionary Radical Feminist).   TERFs believe that you cannot be a woman if you were not born with a vagina, because you cannot truly understand what it is to grow up underneath the male gaze.  Or something like that.  SWERFs believe all forms of prostitution, including pornography, is by definition exploitative and should be eliminated.

[Tolvo]

Yeah, I was recently introduced to the terms TERF (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist) and SWERF (Sex Worker-Exclusionary Radical Feminist).   TERFs believe that you cannot be a woman if you were not born with a vagina, because you cannot truly understand what it is to grow up underneath the male gaze.  Or something like that.  SWERFs believe all forms of prostitution, including pornography, is by definition exploitative and should be eliminated.

Typically if someone is one they are the other. Not always, but usually they're of the same school of thought. Often it also goes even more extreme than that. One needs to be born with a uterus and vagina, one needs to be fertile, one might even need to have children by an age, someone who meets the previous criteria still might not count as a woman to them if they do not "Appear like a woman." They often hyper focus on expression and actions which are "Masculine" or "Feminine." Evidence a trans woman isn't a "real woman" is she does traditionally "masculine" things like sports or likes computers, while trans men aren't "real men" as is evidenced by if the individual likes to be clean or is caring, etc. It is very much designed so anything ever is evidence and there is no way to be "feminine" or "masculine" enough for them. Many of them are also political lesbians, which is not a sexuality. The idea being that men are such dangers to women that one should politically become a lesbian and typically involves separatism from men. This is again very fringe though they currently dominate British media. Despite being a small fraction of feminists and a fringe view they represent much of British media sites and news outlets.

[Silk]

Typically if someone is one they are the other. Not always, but usually they're of the same school of thought. Often it also goes even more extreme than that. One needs to be born with a uterus and vagina, one needs to be fertile, one might even need to have children by an age, someone who meets the previous criteria still might not count as a woman to them if they do not "Appear like a woman." They often hyper focus on expression and actions which are "Masculine" or "Feminine." Evidence a trans woman isn't a "real woman" is she does traditionally "masculine" things like sports or likes computers, while trans men aren't "real men" as is evidenced by if the individual likes to be clean or is caring, etc. It is very much designed so anything ever is evidence and there is no way to be "feminine" or "masculine" enough for them. Many of them are also political lesbians, which is not a sexuality. The idea being that men are such dangers to women that one should politically become a lesbian and typically involves separatism from men. This is again very fringe though they currently dominate British media. Despite being a small fraction of feminists and a fringe view they represent much of British media sites and news outlets.

I think that is part of the problem though which is making the situation seem much worse than it is, the fringe elements are the ones being given the platforms, be it media or academia or otherwise. While more moderate voices that don't sell are not getting a word in. Most people talk about denouncing XYZ but people do denounce actions of others ALL the time, but people assume its not being denounced because the denouncements are not being reported and put out into public sphere.

[Lilias]

A few examples of non-toxic masculinity.

[Twisted Crow]

I don't even know what I am looking at in that link. Can someone explain?

[Tolvo]

It is stories people have witnessed of them being around guys who were caring and understanding of each other and supportive while still being very masculine.

[Fox Lokison]

Then that begs the question:  what is Toxic Masculinity, exactly?  And where does it come from?  And is there anything we can do about it?

I've generally always thought of toxic masculinity as this upheld ideal of masculinity by society that doesn't allow for much flexibility or humanity within it. This idea that you are a man or you're not, and there's one way to be a man. I don't think it's something men inflict on others, I think it's something societal norms and ideals and cultural messages inflict on men and whittle away at them. The idea that men don't have feelings or weaknesses, they don't cry or get beaten up by girls, they are always in control of themselves and the situation around them. That single, solitary road to manhood rather than a wide spectrum of male and masculine behaviors.

Personally I'd say it comes from the cultural narratives we have about gender and sex, in that women are emotional and men are logical, women feel, men think, men lead, women follow, men guard the home/work away from home, women tend to it, etc. I think what qualifies as toxic masculinity can change over time and across cultures. For me, in the states, it's been this idea that men do not cry, men do not have feelings, men work hard and provide for the family. They go out drinking with their buddies and deal with their problems using a bottle. They work themselves to the bone and do the hard labor so their wives can take care of the kids. Don't talk about being assaulted, or being abused. Don't show weakness. Don't trust people, don't let them in, don't show vulnerability. Being a calm and stoic figure while others are emotional and raging around you was a plus, and expressing your feelings only through a bottle was a great character trait. I'd say that's all pretty toxic cuz it imposes this idea that to be a man, you have to do all that, and if you can't, you aren't a real man. Which has societal and interpersonal consequences.

I think toxic masculinity is 100% summed up by Terry Crews going and talking about what happened to him and someone predictably asking why a man of his stature couldn't defend himself. I think it's that narrowed point right there where Terry's masculinity was now being questioned because his response was not control and aggression and logic, but uncertainty and vulnerability and emotion. That is what I call toxic masculinity, because the idea that he's less of a man for that is a toxic one.

There's a lot of ways for gender roles to be toxic but I think they hurt the people carrying them just as much as they do everyone around them. At least, that's been my personal experience, coming into manhood and being told exactly how to be a man and what made me not one, and how little I was made to feel for not fitting it.

[CopperLily]

- toughness, resilience, grit, being able to take a beating and continue on, being able to get up after being knocked down?
- power -- being able to use controlled, measured force and violence in order to achieve a specific goal (such as in a sporting event)?
- strength -- the ability to protect one's self and one's loved ones from harm? the ability to stand up to a bully, or to defend the weak and downtrodden?
- self-sacrifice -- intentionally putting one's self at the risk of peril for the benefit for others?

I'm going to try to take a stab at this and say to me, toxic masculinity isn't "These traits are BAD" and "These traits are GOOD", but that there are certain traits, ones often considered conventionally masculine, that can turn toxic.

So lets take some of your examples:

Toughness: The ability to take a hit from life and keep going is indeed a good, and laudable trait. But the expectation that this is the only option, and that those who are struggling to be resilient aren't deserving of help or empathy? Toxic.

Power: Again, there are good parts to this. Sports, as you've said. Helping your friends move and being able to carry that one box downstairs without trouble? Awesome. The use of controlled, measured force and violence in order to achieve a specific goal when that goal harms another person? Toxic.

Strength: This and power sort of fuse into each other. All your examples are great. But using your strength to be the bully, or viewing those who are less strong than you as less deserving of safety or success, etc. Toxic.

Since I'm a medical nerd, I'll use a medical example.

Your bones make you strong.
A broken bone, left along, can poison your blood and kill you.

[Oniya]

I'm going to try to take a stab at this and say to me, toxic masculinity isn't "These traits are BAD" and "These traits are GOOD", but that there are certain traits, ones often considered conventionally masculine, that can turn toxic.

[snips examples]

Since I'm a medical nerd, I'll use a medical example.

Your bones make you strong.
A broken bone, left along, can poison your blood and kill you.

Going to have a go at the 'self-sacrifice' one. 

I've got a first-responder in my family, so the 'intentionally putting one's self at risk' part is a quality that I can see admiring.  But - if you take that overboard to the point of 'I am going to take on all the burden, and not ask for the help I need, or complain about anything' - then you end up with resentment (of the people that aren't helping), despair (from taking on something not humanly possible), and isolation (because you aren't 'allowed' to ask for help.)  Toxic.

A hammer can be used to build or to break.   It all depends on what you're using it on and how hard you swing it.

[Remiel]

Hmmm.  So it seems we're pretty much all in agreement that masculinity, and masculine traits, aren't necessarily in themselves toxic, but can become so if they're not used in a healthy way.

So I'm going to hijack my own thread, and pour a little bit of fuel on the fire here and specifically ask the women of E, particularly those of you who are in a relationship:

When your man behaves in a way that is less than what is conventionally considered masculine, how does that affect your view of him?  When he cries in public, when he asks other people for help, when he admits he doesn't know how to do something, when he admits he doesn't know anything about cars, when he walks away from a potentially dangerous situation, when he wants to be the submissive in bed--does that turn you on?

Or turn you off?

For those of you who are dating, do you prefer that the man always be the one to make the first move--or are you willing to be the one to make the first move?

Also, I'd like to get your collective thoughts on the following clip, taken from the T.V. show Louie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfMbN_MzCpw

In this scene, Louie is on a date, when the date is interrupted by the arrival of a group of loud, boisterous, non-considerate high school jocks.   Louie asks the group to keep it down.  Taking offense, one of the jocks approaches Louie and challenges him to a fight.

Obviously, Louie is no match for the young punk physically.  He is a middle-aged man, a father of two young daughters.  There is very little to gain by getting into a physical altercation with the punk.  So he does what most of us, I think, would do in that situation: he gives the jock what he wants.  He asks the kid to "please don't kick my ass."   

The clip cuts off before the end of the scene, but basically what happens is that the woman is totally turned off and ends the date, even while admitting that Louie did the only rational thing he could do.

[Tolvo]

I'm not really bothered by people not doing the "Macho" thing. Usually doing it would be irrational and irresponsible. There are times when you should stand up for people but putting yourself and others in danger for your sense of pride in a lot of circumstances is not required. Though I do not date men someone being a man more so would be the turn off. The Louis CK is an interesting one to use in an example of a scene of non-toxic masculinity given he sexually harassed women and was rather transphobic in an episode and wasn't there an episode on what to do when you "accidentally" attempt to rape someone?

[Remiel]

The Louis CK is an interesting one to use in an example of a scene of non-toxic masculinity given he sexually harassed women and was rather transphobic in an episode and wasn't there an episode on what to do when you "accidentally" attempt to rape someone?

We're all aware of what he did, and I'm certainly not defending his real-life actions.  I'm asking you to set that aside and just consider the clip on its own, for the purposes of this discussion. 

[Oniya]

I actually get quite annoyed when Mr. Oniya won't ask for help on something (usually physical in nature, but sometimes information-gathering or computer related).  On the flip side, he knows he has difficulty spelling, and it's not unusual for him to ask me to look over an important email before he sends it.  (So he does ask for help at times, and we're both okay with that.)