Trump

[Blythe]

If you want to see a genuine rebuttal that acknowledges genuine border security and the consequences of frivolous shutdowns that is a fairly good rebuttal of people like Trump or Cruz, I would strongly encourage watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2aO_3-RA00

Here's the thing.

You are not going to find people here arguing for a nebulous open border with no immigration policy at all--that is often a misrepresentation or mislabel that gets thrown on more liberal voices to distract from what they are actually saying. Most people here probably wouldn't be against talking about immigration reform of some sort, though you might find that a lot of us might differ in how we think about it. We are not a faceless hate-spewing mob. It's not a fair stereotype to throw and it completely mischaracterizes those who have often attempted to reasonably provide evidence to support their views as being unreasonable when they are not.

We are people who are genuinely upset at what we perceive to be decisions made by the current administration that we feel are harmful to our nation's laws, security, and citizenry (whether that citizenry was born here or not).

Personally, I think the following needs to happen:

* Fixing our immigration process so prospective immigrants are not made to wait years in immigration court. This includes appointing more judges to more quickly handle cases. Many people trying to apply to come here cannot afford to sit waiting years and letting what little cash they have fade away in the process. When you present people with a labyrinthine broken processing system that does not work, do not be surprised when people then try to circumvent that broken system. The solution is to fix that system. This would benefit both USA citizens and prospective immigrants..

* Addressing expired green card situations, which have far more to do with the USA's immigration problem than border crossings. This is a less-easy area to address, though avoiding it is not a good idea.

* Temper our system with compassion for the human beings seeking a better life. Regardless of your stance, the way certain people have been held by ICE is not humane. If you wonder why many people get upset, it's because they are seeing human beings dehumanized because...they come from Mexico, Central America, etc. Stereotyped. Misrepresented. We can and should do better, regardless of party lines or political stance, to remember immigrants are human and not some nebulous 'security threat' all the time. Not everyone who crosses the border is a drug dealer, a rapist, or some criminal, though Trump and his administration would like you to believe that to justify their actions.

* You are wrong that a wall has never been done. Categorically wrong. Border security has included barrier-building before along certain areas of the US border. I think you mean that a wall covering the entire border hasn't been done. And for good reason. Why should the USA's private citizenry be forced to potentially cede their land for this? It would require the military potentially using eminent domain to take that land. It's robbery. I do not support robbing USA citizens of their land. Further wall-building, in my opinion, is a waste of money & hurts citizenry simultaneously.

And to mention: I do not hate you. A person can disagree with you and think you are wrong without hating you.

I'm not particularly even trying to change your mind.

But I am hoping you will at least consider what I've said.

[Iniquitous]

For the 'walls of this magnitude haven't been done' claim, I'd like to point out the Great Wall of China - arguably a master feat of construction, considering - that.. completely failed to keep anybody out. Or in, if I remember correctly.

I'd also like to mention Hadrian's Wall. Also pretty impressive. Not successful as a means of keeping people out, although as a symbol of power, it might have worked just fine.

One might argue that the Berlin Wall succeeded.. but there's proof that it didn't prevent people from crossing, it just made it difficult.

Sure, those weren't in the US. But it's been done. It's been done more than once.

Walls, historically, may be impressive as hell, but the fact of the matter is, they /don't work/ - they can be climbed, dug under, or in our case, circumvented by land or sea - unless they are manned. And quite frankly, I don't see that happening here. There's too much real estate involved.
What was it, five billion just to build it? Okay. Say you /do/ build it. Now you have to man it. Men, equipment, food, water, power ... you are racking up millions in maintenance alone. And it still wouldn't work.

They could put up a 'wall' of solar panels and wind turbines and have it be as useful for keeping people out of the country. Those would at least be more generally useful as power generation, and are about as likely to actually get built.

5 billion isn't even CLOSE to what it will cost to build the wall.  Trying 25 billion.  ( https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps-border-wall-how-much-it-will-actually-cost-according-to-a-statistician )

[Rebelle]

Late to the party - however there is some things I want to point out in this.

Btw - daughter of an Army Vietnam Vet, raised amongst those in labor unions (plumbers and steamfitters), and learned at the feet of veterans from Korea and Vietnam (just for some insight here)

Why is it that a lot of other people from other countries are worried about what Trump is doing in his own borders of his own country? Trump is trying to fix the country that he loves, not take over the world. He wants to make his own country safe and self sustaining once again, so that we don't have to rely on anyone for anything.  Why does this bother so many people who are not from the USA?

Because we have been part of the 'super powers' for so long.  The Allied Nations, NATO, and the UN.  Simply put, when our house is not in order, it isn't just OUR house, but the houses of those around us as well.  When Roosevelt saw that there was an absolute need for countries to come together so we would never face another great war like WWII, he did something about it, but BUT not just by himself - but with other countries. https://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/55407.htm

In turn, we've worked cohesively with other countries for a very long time to insure not only our wellbeing but the well-being of the world, not because we WANT to, but because it was the precedent that was created and with good right as some of the other posters here have pointed out.

In turn, when other countries now look upon us with worry and fret over what is going on, they have every single right to be worried. And that also includes how one deals with Russia, China, and Korea.   

Also, the wall is important. It will keep us safe and unwanted invaders out. That way we can work on the US and fix what we need to fix instead of trying to fight off scavengers who would happily take everything from us in a heart beat.

Wall and border patrols are awesome?

Okay.

So that's why 2 American citizens were detained in MONTANA because *gasp* they were speaking Spanish, and the border patrol agent said it was because they were indeed speaking Spanish.

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/15/695184555/americans-who-were-detained-after-speaking-spanish-in-montana-sue-u-s-border-pat

And why is it he was allowed to detain them?  Because they were 100 miles within the border of another country....  Country so happens to be Canada.  If that isn't an abuse of power, then I don't know what is.

Ummm NO! It isn't just our responsibility to protect everyone, that responsibility falls on their own shoulders. We weren't helped when we stood up and fought for what we wanted, we stood alone. No one stepped in to try and stop us when we fought against ourselves, no one tried to help us work things out, we did that all on our own. And even now with all the problems with everything going on the fight has come to our own soil, not since Pearl Harbor have we been attacked on our own soil. (with the exception of when we first broke from England) and yet we still stand alone with no one's troops helping protect our borders. It isn't our responsibility to take care of everyone else, we only have the responsibility to take care of ourselves, first and foremost, then we can help others. We can't take care of ourselves right now, so we really shouldn't be helping everyone else under the sun until we right what is wrong with our country first.

It's a noble concept to take care of everyone because you are strong, but while your busy out there doing that, your home is unprotected and vulnerable. Making it a easy target, so that when you are finally done helping everyone else, you will come home to everything you love destroyed. That is what Trump is trying to prevent.

So many things about this just boggles the mind

1. French helped in the American Revolution
a) Casimir Pulaski immigrated from Poland for the very sake of helping in the American Revolution.
b)Spain also assisted with the American Revolution. 
c) As did the Netherlands

2.  During the Civil War France and Britain remained neutral - though there were those who wanted to back either side.  They did this due to the fact they were worried about their own investments as well as possibly losing Canada, but they did not get involved.  Due to investment reasons, as well as Russia keeping an eye on things just in case they decided to.  It was a war that was involved within the country - still in a time when perhaps other countries were indeed hoping the United States would buckle (do remember that in turn the US was and is one of the youngest countries and because of that, especially at the time, Britain could have been inclined to to do the wait and see aspect).

3.  It has already been pointed out about 9/11

HUH? That has nothing to do with being a self sufficient country running off of its own resources, foods and economy. We used to be self sufficient and needed nothing from other countries, but only traded with them to help them out.

And no we don't pay more in taxes, the refunds are less because you took more money home though the year with each paycheck. So you didn't pay as much taxes and therefore you get a smaller refund because you didn't over pay in taxes.

This is categorically false and has been proven as such.  They were able to hammer through a bill that the IRS was not even sure about, and now people are left owning much more in taxes than ever before.  I never once saw an increase in my wages, but my refund is much smaller.  Not only have we seen it personally, but it is one of the most hot button topics in the news as of late about people owing far much more.  The only way we wouldn't is if we were to have more withheld, which in turn means our checks are smaller and we're just hoping to break even when the tax man comes to collect.  And yet, tell me HOW that means more people are enjoying better paychecks and slightly smaller returns? 

Fuzzy math, right?

Most of them don't work. Also you complain about all the disease's  coming back and the strain on the health care system, but who do you think is doing that? All the illegals, because legal immigrants get doctor check ups and shots when they come in the correct way.

That uhm....

I'm just not going to point out the blatant here - but when you have a PRESIDENT stating that vaccines cause autism

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-vaccines-autism-links-anti-vaxxer-us-president-false-vaccine-a8331836.html

https://www.npr.org/2017/01/10/509185540/despite-the-facts-trump-once-again-embraces-vaccine-skeptics

What more do you want?  Or are you saying that the 'illegals' are listening to the President of the United States and choosing NOT to vaccinate?  There has been such a hairbrained belief about vaccines for so long, that it was grass roots.  It all started here in the US, people citing religious preference as well as medical preference, and in turn we have such high amounts of parents choosing to NOT vaccinate their children.

Let us not forget all the misinformation out there - there are actually people who believe since the Plague didn't have a vaccine and it wasn't the end of the world, then what's the big deal.  Seriously, there are people like that.

You can be an adamant Trump supporter, that is your right, in this country.  As it is all of our rights to believe as we wish.

However, I believe that as citizens we should not be a country that is being built upon lies and misinformation - and unfortunately not all the information is available, and when it is, it's considered 'fake news'.  The wall will do nothing more than create more havoc, cause people to be more crafty, and in turn endanger even more peoples lives.  We see it EVERY single day as it stands.

Instead, there needs to be immigration reform.
Healthcare reform.
Infrastructure reform.

Things that can actually better this country and empower it's citizens.

A wall, THIS wall is going to be Trump's legacy, and in turn it's going to be America's folly

[CyrodilicBrandy]

If you dont mind me asking, why would someones political leanings affect whether or not youd want to RP with them?

Didn't say it had anything to do with politics. :)
It's more that, if a person is likely to get passive aggressive, cagey, resort to insults, etc in conversation, they're not really someone I'd want to plot/RP with. If there's a RP conflict, I have to base how this might be resolved in previous interaction, and if someone shows lack of willingness to listen, why should I personally waste my time RPing with them? Of course, this really would be a generalisation, but I lose nothing by casually avoiding a person. However, if I do RP with that person, and they do turn out to actually be antagonistic in some way, then that would be a damn shame.

[Thorne]

5 billion isn't even CLOSE to what it will cost to build the wall.  Trying 25 billion.  ( https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps-border-wall-how-much-it-will-actually-cost-according-to-a-statistician )

Point. That seems much more accurate. ^^;

[RedEve]

One might argue that the Berlin Wall succeeded.. but there's proof that it didn't prevent people from crossing, it just made it difficult.

It is pretty impressive that the Republican party went from "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" to "Lets build a wall of our own!" in just thirty years. 

[Roleplay Frog]

One might argue that the Berlin Wall succeeded.. but there's proof that it didn't prevent people from crossing, it just made it difficult.

It didn't prevent people from crossing, furthermore, what kept people from trying for a large part was the threat of punishment, snitches and an internal espionage system aimed at the citizens that even had the idea of leaving.

But yeah fun fact, a city is more easy to wall in than a nation. Engineering wise, yeah, technology has advanced, but.. well, First of all, calling it a wall is deceptive. It was more of a zone. Everyone thinks of it as a wall, and that's what they tried at first.. it did almost nothing by itself.
It was quite fascinating to find out the details on a history-class expedition there.

It is said an image speaks a thousand words, so here's what you propably remember the Berlin wall like:


And here's what it actually looked like, from above, two walls and a lot of barbed wire:

[Eikichi]

All the wall theories that have been posted as to why it won't work, are just that, theories. Why? Because it has never been done before in the USA, so knowing how or why it will fail is an opinion based theory. Until it is built and put into play (a complete wall not the half hearted attempts that are there now) we will not have the facts that are needed to prove or disprove anything. Walls work and there are proof of it in history. Did they work a 100% of the time, no they didn't, but they sure helped more than they hurt.

I don't understand the argument that these are just theories. Walls are not a new concept. They have existed for thousands, upon thousands, of years. We have walls that are dated back to 11,000 B.E. It's 2019 ce. I think at this point people understand the underlying issue with how walls don't work. It's not like you need to invent new ways of getting over walls. They used ladders, and tunnels, thousands of years ago and anyone that wants over the wall will be doing the exact same thing today.

[RedEve]

If they wanted true 21st century border security (and I'm not saying that they need it) they should look to modern technology like drone surveillance.
It will be less invasive and ultimately more effective.

[Iniquitous]

If they wanted true 21st century border security (and I'm not saying that they need it) they should look to modern technology like drone surveillance.
It will be less invasive and ultimately more effective.

Where's the like button???

[Markus]

If they wanted true 21st century border security (and I'm not saying that they need it) they should look to modern technology like drone surveillance.
It will be less invasive and ultimately more effective.

^ this. a wall imo is likely to be more expensive and less effective.

[Callie Del Noire]

The Blackwater group, back when they went by that name, had a blimp style UAV that was built for long term loiter in spot border surveillance using the APs-137 radar from the S-3. This would allow for 3D surface scanning of details like a tin can in water ata distance of something over 10 miles.

[TheGlyphstone]

Didn't say it had anything to do with politics. :)
It's more that, if a person is likely to get passive aggressive, cagey, resort to insults, etc in conversation, they're not really someone I'd want to plot/RP with. If there's a RP conflict, I have to base how this might be resolved in previous interaction, and if someone shows lack of willingness to listen, why should I personally waste my time RPing with them? Of course, this really would be a generalisation, but I lose nothing by casually avoiding a person. However, if I do RP with that person, and they do turn out to actually be antagonistic in some way, then that would be a damn shame.

That makes sense. I'm not entirely sure I agree only because politics can bring out the worst in a person sometimes, I know some people who are perfectly fine unless you get political. But it certainly makes sense to feel that way.

If they wanted true 21st century border security (and I'm not saying that they need it) they should look to modern technology like drone surveillance.
It will be less invasive and ultimately more effective.

This, so much this. It's even got a nice catchy slogan: "Build A Wall in The Sky". My idea was to snap up all the Predator drones the military is replacing/decommissioning, mostly because they'd be cheaper. But if the blimp-based UAV design Callie mentions has a similar price tag, that would be an even better option paired with nodal border patrol groups behind the border.

[RedPhoenix]

If you dont mind me asking, why would someones political leanings affect whether or not youd want to RP with them?

I've ignored people for what they say in PRoC based on their views of transfolks mostly. I don't consider transphobia to be a political leaning though, even though it's been fully embraced by the GOP lately I don't believe there's anything inherent in conservative values that requires hatred of anyone so I try very hard not to automatically associate the two. I've also ignored people for rather blatant sexism and homophobia but most of them usually never use these forums for RP so it's less likely to actually matter.

That being said I know people have ignored me for criticizing Hilary Clinton so, ya know, sunrise sunset.

[TheGlyphstone]

I've ignored people for what they say in PRoC based on their views of transfolks mostly. I don't consider transphobia to be a political leaning though, even though it's been fully embraced by the GOP lately I don't believe there's anything inherent in conservative values that requires hatred of anyone so I try very hard not to automatically associate the two. I've also ignored people for rather blatant sexism and homophobia but most of them usually never use these forums for RP so it's less likely to actually matter.

That being said I know people have ignored me for criticizing Hilary Clinton so, ya know, sunrise sunset.

Thats different, I agree. I'd also ignore someone for being a transphobe, just not for being a Trump/Obama/Clinton supporter.

[ReijiTabibito]

If someone came to me tomorrow and told me "You can do three things to fix the immigration system of the US without political pushback, everything else will be subject to the usual rigamarole," (which is not all that usual these days) I would probably name the 3 things off the top of my head, and literally none of them would involve any sort of barrier structure.

3: Roughly 60% of our 'illegal' immigrant population are people who have simply overstayed their visas.  These are people who went through the time and hassle of coming into our country 'through the front door.'  If they applied for it once and were given an official visa, it should be no harder to renew than getting a new driver's license or passport.  If it is, streamline the process until it is.

2: Reorganize our immigration system away from the lottery-style setup we currently have today to a skills-based system more akin to Australia's.  We keep hearing that we are facing major holes in various employment fields, our system should be tailored to address that.

1: E-verify.  E-verify.  E-verify.  And that is all I will say on that.

[Sara Nilsson]

As someone who legally immigrated to the USA, and became a citizen I can safely say the current system is beyond fucked. I wont go over all the shit they put me through again, I mentioned it enough in these threads but it is just mind boggling the "proof" they demand from you, as well as all the money. The only reason I managed was because we hired a lawyer, without him I would have been kicked out of the country due to all the red tape they put in your way and never really tell you about.

you can show up on time, with all the paperwork they ask for. And they will ask for something else, that they never even once told you to bring. And they can drag their asses for years.. literally for years! We had a period of 14 months with no information from them, and then.. hey we need this document from your doctor in sweden, and we need it in 3 weeks. Sure, let me get a hold of one of 4 doctors in sweden that do that particular procedure, get him to write out a letter detailing everything (you know because doctors have so much free time) and then send it here, get it translated and send it off to immigration. Oh, whats that? They got the letter a day to late. Sorry you are now in the proceeding to be kicked out of the country.

Fuck the US immigration system, It is broken to its very core. With very few judges to oversee a mountain of cases, and in my case.. due to a letter being a day late. Once we did show up, it was all.. oh.. well thats nothing, you are fine I will cancel it all for you. Done.

[Callie Del Noire]

I know of at least one European family that snuck in the front door.  It was back in the 90s though. The local construction company family where I lived in the Republic of Ireland.  Hated the son, he was a friggin bully to me the 2 1/2 years I lived there.  Once kicked me into the soccer goal netting when I was goalie. 

They just flew in to JFK, and didn’t leave for 15 years till the situation back in Ireland improved.  Actually had a business a set up stateside.  Maryland I think.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

As someone who legally immigrated to the USA, and became a citizen I can safely say the current system is beyond fucked. I wont go over all the shit they put me through again, I mentioned it enough in these threads but it is just mind boggling the "proof" they demand from you, as well as all the money. The only reason I managed was because we hired a lawyer, without him I would have been kicked out of the country due to all the red tape they put in your way and never really tell you about.

you can show up on time, with all the paperwork they ask for. And they will ask for something else, that they never even once told you to bring. And they can drag their asses for years.. literally for years! We had a period of 14 months with no information from them, and then.. hey we need this document from your doctor in sweden, and we need it in 3 weeks. Sure, let me get a hold of one of 4 doctors in sweden that do that particular procedure, get him to write out a letter detailing everything (you know because doctors have so much free time) and then send it here, get it translated and send it off to immigration. Oh, whats that? They got the letter a day to late. Sorry you are now in the proceeding to be kicked out of the country.

Fuck the US immigration system, It is broken to its very core. With very few judges to oversee a mountain of cases, and in my case.. due to a letter being a day late. Once we did show up, it was all.. oh.. well thats nothing, you are fine I will cancel it all for you. Done.

I agree, it is very messed up. It took me years, for getting US citizenship. So much paperwork, which for me gets lost, or misplaced, I lose count of the forms I need for filing, again. Without hiring attorney, and other help, I don’t think ever I become citizen. The process, it’s crazy. 

[TheGlyphstone]

I agree, it is very messed up. It took me years, for getting US citizenship. So much paperwork, which for me gets lost, or misplaced, I lose count of the forms I need for filing, again. Without hiring attorney, and other help, I don’t think ever I become citizen. The process, it’s crazy. 

For some reason I thought you lived in Russia...

[Sara Nilsson]

For some reason I thought you lived in Russia...

She does, used to live in the USA. Moved back home.

[TheGlyphstone]

Ah, okay. That makes sense...some days i wish i had a home to go to that wasnt here.

[Oniya]

Ah, okay. That makes sense...some days i wish i had a home to go to that wasnt here.

Sometimes you want to go...

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

For some reason I thought you lived in Russia...

Yes I move to US, when I’m fourteen. I move home, to Russia, a few years ago. I try very hard but, US never feels, like my home.

[gaggedLouise]

Former acting FBI chief McCabe exolains why he thinks President Trump could perhaps be, effectively, a traitor (he doesn't use the word but that's what it adds up to) and a "Russian asset". 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/19/politics/andrew-mccabe-trump-law-enforcement/index.html

Meanwhile, I read somewhere (can't find the link now, but it was at a major news source) that Trump said there's no need for Kim Jong-un to hurry with serious steps of dismantling his nuclear capability, it's just fine to do that later, perhaps a couple of years down the line: the important thing now is to keep talking and having a good vibe. 

Sounds reassuring and calming.