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Author Topic: This article actually pissed me off.  (Read 1167 times)

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Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

This article actually pissed me off.
« on: August 08, 2016, 09:52:55 AM »
I know it's a month old, and it's probably been linked here before, but...I just got linked to it today, and I just...how can somebody be in the Kink Community and completely miss the point of one of the most common kinks out there? How can somebody be so arrogant that something they aren't personally into is deemed "Unacceptable" for some nonsensical reason and they think they have the right to tell a certain subset of the Kink Community to "Fuck Off?"
As a "Straight White Male" and a "Switch," this doubly galling to me. >.<

This steaming pile of B******t.

I just. I don't even know where to begin with that article. >.<

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2016, 10:08:34 AM »
I wonder if that counts as Kinkshaming *taps chin in thought*

But yeah that seems just like an attempt to wag a finger and say "those people, those people, those people."  Im pretty sure there are similar kink communities around the world and whatever, its just that we don't hear about them because in some places its nowhere near acceptable as it is in other places.

It actually reminds me abit of videogames where people try to create little fiefdoms of "im superior, I don't need players like you here, go away." Just because they want to do things their way and hate everyone else who has something different.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:14:28 AM by Lustful Bride »

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2016, 10:18:30 AM »
That's the thing; all the way through, she's desperately trying to avoid "kink shaming" by protesting that she isn't Kinkshaming since being a "Dominant Male" isn't a kink! It's like....yes....it is. There's a difference between simply being "On Top" position-wise and being "Dominant," after all.

And yeah, the level of visibility of kink communities does vary country on country, since some countries are more "open" about it than others. Like, when I visited Greece a few years back, we were in the bus driving down a main road, and on the very edge of the road - in the middle of a row of shops - was a BDSM Sex Shop, labelled as such. I watched it going by like ".....well ok then." Sadly I did not get the opportunity to browse their wares - in any event, that might have gotten me some VERY strange looks in customs had my bags been searched - but the point remains that you likely wouldn't find such a shop so brazenly on the main High Street in England or the USA. XD

Back to the article at hand, though, it just seems....arrogant and hypocritical to me. She has the gall to suggest that a kink isn't "Valid" because she doesn't "get" it - even misunderstanding the whole concept of "Daddy/Daughter play," if I'm reading it correctly - and hypocritical because in the same breath as saying she's not condemning peoples kinks...she condemns peoples kinks.

And what the fuck does Donald Trump have to do with any of it?! The last thing I want to think about in a BDSM setting is Donald Trump! XD >.<


And yeah, I agree on that last point. Thankfully most communities reactions seems to be "Well fuck off, we don't want people like you here." XD

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2016, 10:43:26 AM »
If anything I would argue we need more Doms. Period :P

I don't know if its just me but it looks like we have maybe a ratio of Doms to Subs somewhere like  3:6

While there is nothing wrong with subs I find it difficult to find the right dom and we need more...I was going somewhere with this but I totally got lost :P

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2016, 10:58:44 AM »
LOL. That happens to me sometimes :P

But yes, I completely agree. I enjoy Domming, and while the side of me that likes to Dom secretly likes all the choice I have, the Sub side of me is like "No! More Doms!" It's so very hard to find a female Dom on E and in general...we definitely need more. Maybe some kind of recruitment drive? A bake sale, perhaps? A free collar with every third muffin? :P

Offline Oniya

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2016, 11:19:15 AM »
And what the fuck does Donald Trump have to do with any of it?! The last thing I want to think about in a BDSM setting is Donald Trump! XD >.<

The last thing I want to think of in any intimate setting or fictional representation thereof is Donald Trump.

Humor aside, D/s play is a kink, and as long as there are straight submissive females, they will be looking for straight dominant males.  And vice versa with submissive males and dominant females.  Thing is, Trump strikes me as an example of a 'bad Dom'.  He doesn't care what happens or who gets hurt as long as he gets what he wants.  That this is mainstream D/s kink is a myth perpetuated by E.L. James and whatever the porn equivalent of Hollywood is.  Every stable D/s pair I've encountered has dominant that is concerned about the well-being of their submissive.  If someone tells Donald Trump 'no', then he rages.  If a submissive uses a safe-word (which might be something other than 'no'), the proper response from a dominant is to back off and make sure everything is okay.

There's probably enough material to write a counter-article titled 'Why the Don is not a Dom.'

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2016, 11:27:14 AM »
*laughs* I would actually sit down to read that article. Hell, if I had the time and inclination, I would probably write that article. XD

But yes, I agree; one of my biggest criticisms of that hideous book and the hack of an author is that it completely missed the point of a stable BDSM relationship. He stalks her, abuses her, actually hurts her and when she says "Cut it the fuck out," he says "Shan't" and basically guilts and pressures her into accepting it.

But yes, I would agree; Trump throws a tantrum whenever somebody doesn't do what he wants, and that is an attitude in a Dom that makes for a very bad, very abusive Dominant. Those people exist, of course, people who use their Dominance to bully and abuse...but that is not the norm, and I wish people would stop portraying it as the norm.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2016, 12:25:00 PM »
I will definitely have to read this later.

I've been to plenty of kink discussions where we talk about privilege. Active in the scene for 5 years now, so I'll definitely have an opinion on it.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2016, 01:13:02 PM »
I will definitely have to read this later.

I've been to plenty of kink discussions where we talk about privilege. Active in the scene for 5 years now, so I'll definitely have an opinion on it.

Privilege? Like Male privilege? White Privilege? Class Privilege It just seems to me like the person there is just venting about kinks that they don't like. But idk *shrugs* 
I'm not really a dom so I might be missing it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:32:28 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2016, 01:19:51 PM »
Yeah, I agree, She's really mixing up notions about kink & non-standard sex with a ragbag of gender politics - and they fail to illuminate each other.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2016, 01:29:16 PM »
*Quoting form the page*

Quote
Now I am not here to argue that men can't be Doms (although, realistically, they probably can't).
Quote
But Dommes (the female version) are rebelling against social roles that keep women subservient, while Doms (the male version) are looking at a society that is already anti-women and wants to keep them subservient.

*Cough* kinkshaming .

I like when a guy dominates me, though I enjoy women as well. If it gets you off and is 100% consensual, just enjoy it. :P

Quote
Are you a conservative man masquerading as a Dom?
1.Are you voting for Trump? This has nothing to do with your sexual proclivities, but it does suggest you shouldn't be interacting with people

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Politics does not equal sexuality/kinks

Im gonna label this person a hypocrite. Saying they are all for different kinks and fetishes but then making an article shaming those who have certain lusts.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:31:34 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2016, 01:40:41 PM »
Yep, it's like when I heard a radio reporter from here who was talking to a dominant woman. The lady was wielding the whip on her male partner and sometimes a few guests,  also male; the reporter getting very wowed by what she saw and heard and holding it up as sex and a subversive feminist statement at the same time. Now if she had been talking to a male Dom with a female submissive, I'm positive she would just have cast him as a dreary abusive macho pervert, no matter who he was, and not listening at all to what he was talking about.  >:(
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 02:14:34 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2016, 04:05:49 PM »
The last thing I want to think of in any intimate setting or fictional representation thereof is Donald Trump.

Sounds like a perfect safeword. Guaranteed to kill the mood immediately ;)

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2016, 04:31:16 PM »
Oh, the writer is almost certainly a hypocrite, and almost certainly wants to create their own little space where only what they deem acceptable is accepted. I'm sorry that some people are into things that you don't get, little missy, but that's the way the world works. Ugh. That kind of person sickens me. I'm not about to say what she gets off on is unacceptable, so please leave me and mine alone, TYVM. Don't like it, don't do it. End of.

And yeah, I don't see what privilege or Gender Politics has to do with what two consenting adults do behind closed doors, or what privilege has to do with what gives me a rager.

And oh, of course. That kind of hypocrisy is very common in todays society; a female Dominant with whips and paddles is heroic and subversive, but a male with handcuffs and gags is a misogynistic patriarch. A female who stands up to and hits her abusive partner is heroic and should be applauded, but a male who stands up and hits his abusive partner is an abusive asshole who should be prosecuted. And, of course, it works the other way as well a lot of the time too. It's all so very sickening to those of us who actually want equality and understanding between everybody. :-/

Offline Beorning

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2016, 04:31:58 PM »
I've read the article and I agree that it's arrogant and irritating.

The author seems to say that it's okay for a woman to have any kind of kink (because they are the victims of male-dominated society) and that it's okay for a man to have any kink, as long as it goes against the patriarchal norms. If a man happens to have a kink that actually fits with these norms, he's an awful person and is surely just a sexist bastard...

Uhm, sorry, it doesn't work that way. A kink is a kink. You cannot shame someone for having it just because it reflects social norms you disagree with it.

Also, quite shockingly, the author actually defends the idea of double standards! She says that it's okay for her to be accepting toward female subs, but not toward male doms, because people accept men going to striptease clubs while shaming erotic dancers who work there. Uhm... isn't this kind of thing a feminist should be fighting *against*?

And that bit about Trump is just mind-boggling...

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2016, 04:47:22 PM »
I agree totally. A kink is beyond your control, to a certain extent; you get turned on by what you get turned on by, and you shouldn't get punished or shamed for being turned on by it. Ok, if it's illegal and you act on it, then you get punished...but that's the action and not the act of being turned on by it in the first place, and that's going into a sticky grey area that I want to avoid in this thread since it's off topic. XD

And yeah, that thing about erotic dancers...although, in my general circle of people I know, nobody actually looks down on dancers. Maybe we're weird, but we all know full well how bloody hard it is to be a stripper / pole dancer - I've tried some PD classes, just to see what it was all about since I heard it was good exercise and MY GOD I was in pain for a week afterwards - and more jokes are made about the people going there. Ok, more jokes are made about the Strip-Club Buffet than the clients or the strippers, but eh. Maybe it's just that I hang around with very sex-positive people, I dunno. As far as I'm concerned, sex sells. People have always and will always be interested in sex, so if you have people who want to pay to get a cute girl (or guy) to dance and gyrate on you, then more power to you. Likewise if you're a stripper and you're good at it and you've chosen to do it, then again, more power to you, your choice, I ain't gonna tell you that you're not allowed to do it. Yeah, it's a scummy job in some areas, but hey...everybody in dire straits needs to take up a scummy job. Personally speaking, I'd rather gyrate in a dark club in a thong than go wading through city sewers all day, BUT that's just me. :P

Anyway, off topic.

Point is, I agree; erotic dancing shaming should be fought against, alas, too many Third Wave Feminists - not all, probably not even most, but a lot of them - use double standards and hypocrisy in their rhetoric and that's something I try to distance myself on.

No, not derailing this conversation in that direction. XD


Sidebar:
"Vote Trump" is so totally my new safeword.

Online Thesunmaid

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2016, 05:55:26 PM »
I was tempted to post on there...and this would have been my reply..

Wow...for a supposedly accepting community this is a...well bitchy. I know quite a few white males who are excellent dominants and some female and other wise non white males who can be of the traditionally 50 shades variety.  It does not really matter what color someones skin is or thier gender people fuck up....people are assholes...people are bullies. They are not all just white straight men. I assure you I know all kinds of assholes and bullies and they come in quite a few shapes sizes and colors.Any one from any walk of life that are into kinky things can do it wrong. So long as the people involved are consenting and trust each other who gives a flying fuck what they look like? I would have thought people that would be involved in this community would not be so closed minded and yes..bigoted.(by the way this is the meaning of the word bigot " a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."I am not seeing the part where it says Unless you are a white man...then its totally ok!)Seriously...saying all white male dominants are evil and should be villanized is quite simply the largest pile of bullshit I have ever heard.I know quite a few who are wonderful sweet dom's who would not think of hurting anyone with out thier consent.Feel free to pull your head out of your ass...unless the stick up there is wedged too tightly.


But then...I realized I would be breaking my cardinal rule about stupid shit on the internet. Don't feed the trolls as well as never argue with an idiot...they will pull you down to thier level and beat you with experience.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2016, 08:04:13 PM »
I think it a lot of stems from the fact that men entering in the community automatically assume that they are dominant, must be dominant, or pretend to be dominant.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2016, 08:07:33 PM »
I think it a lot of stems from the fact that men entering in the community automatically assume that they are dominant, must be dominant, or pretend to be dominant.

Ah that's just people losing their baby teeth. (I literally couldn't think of a better way to phrase it :/)

Once they have had some time to stay there and experiment they find what suits them best. I thought I was 100% sub only M/F all the time when I first joined E.  Now I know i'm like 50/50 on just about everything :P

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2016, 08:10:25 PM »
Granted my experience of men entering the community is fairly limited, but...I don't think that's necessarily true. I remember when I entered the community and I was still new, green, I had no idea what I enjoyed or how to go about getting what I enjoyed and learned it all by chance and experimentation. I started as a Dom, yes, but only because I didn't have experience Subbing so I didn't know if I enjoyed it or not. But as Lustful Bride says, that's just people losing their teeth; everybody assumes that they're entirely one direction until an exception comes along and they start thinking about it.

I mean, I disagree that men automatically enter the community assuming that they're dominant, but even if it does stem from that...so what? As long as they're with consenting partners and everybody is having a good time and not getting hurt (against their will) who cares? The writer of the article isn't stating "Oh, you men who assume you will always be dominant and you men who are pretending to be dominant, you need to look at yourselves and figure out what you really want." It's saying "You men who enjoy being dominant? Fuck off." Which I think is reprehensible no matter which way you slice it. But that's just me.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2016, 09:40:34 PM »
Like I said, there are problematic people in the community. I've experienced sexism and racism. I've also seen abusive and unsafe partners. I've run into men that automatically assume they own me. I've talked to people who don't know what it means to be dominant. That there is a difference between Dom/Master and Sub/Slave. That it's okay to be male and be submissive. That its okay to be new and not know everything.

I'm speaking from experience.

Offline Lux12

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2016, 09:49:57 PM »
I can't say I blame the person who wrote this. I've heard so many accounts of micro-aggressions and toxic individuals to be all that mad at them. While I can't say I've ever been oppressed on the grounds of my gender or race, I've developed a certain understanding that makes it hard for me to be mad at them. If I had a dime for every time I thought "how nice would it be if all the other men on the planet just disappeared" I wouldn't be worrying about my debts and bills. I've felt rage so intense that if I had a proper chance to vent every bit of anger when I am near my breaking point, it wouldn't be pretty to behold.  Hell there are many days where I think it would be fantastic for all the dom men in the world to just go away so people wouldn't hold me to any standard resembling them because I live in a world which has forgotten that fem expressing men and sub men (and those like me who are both) have a place.

For that matter, just because you haven't experienced what they have doesn't mean that others have not. It's easy to judge people who do not share an extreme facsimile of our experiences. Kink is not in and of itself racist or sexist, but that does not mean that the spaces dedicated to it or that people involved cannot have a hand in such things. People dismissing the pain of those who have suffered on the grounds of how angry they sound really doesn't help. People refusing to do anything to improve things or at the least stand by them when they are in such situations is what leads to that rage. Not to mention that ongoing systemic injustice has a habit of doing that too. I've seen the sort of assholes they're talking about and boy howdy does it take all my restraint not to tear into them verbally with all the fury of a rabid hyena.

Call it an unpopular opinion, but I can't condemn the author. Frankly I'm sort of sympathetic. Don't confuse my sympathy for self hate though. I assure you, there's quite a difference between self loathing and possessing a measure of empathy. I am however saying one should actually try to understand why they feel this way rather than just condemning those who have experienced such things outright based solely on the fact they're angry.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2016, 10:29:12 PM »
Quote
Like I said, there are problematic people in the community. I've experienced sexism and racism. I've also seen abusive and unsafe partners. I've run into men that automatically assume they own me. I've talked to people who don't know what it means to be dominant. That there is a difference between Dom/Master and Sub/Slave. That it's okay to be male and be submissive. That its okay to be new and not know everything.

I'm speaking from experience.

Well that's why communication is key. Be up front with the person and let them know what it is you are and are not looking for. If they cant handle it then both parties can move on. There are plenty of fish in the sea and their dicks are not golden. :P

We aren't saying that stuff like this doesn't happen just that it is unfair to shame people for either enjoying a kink or for having one of having a male being dominant over them. You cant throw an entire group of people into one category of all being bad just because of what gets them aroused.

We don't speak up to make little of those who have suffered injustice, it just isn't right to then start hating on people who haven't done anything wrong. Inocent till proven guilty and such....was going somewhere with this but not sure where.

Quote
I can't say I blame the person who wrote this. I've heard so many accounts of micro-aggressions and toxic individuals to be all that mad at them. While I can't say I've ever been oppressed on the grounds of my gender or race, I've developed a certain understanding that makes it hard for me to be mad at them.

Yes but it also doesn't justify saying everyone of X group is Bad or whatever :P

And not to mention some of what the author said sounds like a double standard.

Quote
But Dommes (the female version) are rebelling against social roles that keep women subservient, while Doms (the male version) are looking at a society that is already anti-women and wants to keep them subservient.


Yes it is bad a person had a bad experience with another person. Its bad that racism, sexism, classism, religious..ism..(I don't know the word) still exists in the world At times it feels like its getting worse. But it doesn't justify treating everyone of the opposite group as if they are all bad and trotting out a double standard. Its just repeating the exact same problem in an endless cycle of everyone being an ass to everyone.

And the cycle must be broken. :) *pulls everyone in for a hug* I love all of you. :-)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:37:56 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Blythe

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2016, 10:32:21 PM »
I got pretty bothered earlier, and I came back to post here in a much clearer frame of mind.

I think "go away unsafe, creepy, sexist/racist, rude/patronizing Doms" is a very different sentiment than "go away all straight white male Doms."

The former I can get behind--safer kink communities are always something I can get behind, and there are definitely some people that fit the above adjectives I mentioned.

The latter? The latter is stereotyping that I want nothing to do with.

The only thing I particularly agree with in the article is:

Quote
6. Do you feel that 50 Shades of Grey is a valid model of consent?

I'll concede the article writer has a point with #6 there.

The article-writer lost a lot of credibility when she essentially claimed switches are just people not into anything out of the ordinary (lumped them into point #4).  Switches can and do get wild, and frankly, knowledgeable switches who can Dom when there's a shortage of safe Doms are a godsend, especially because I feel they have a wonderful insight into the submissive perspective of things. That alienation and shaming of switches uncomfortably reminds me way too much of the way bisexual people are often shamed and told to "pick" a gender to be attracted to, as if 'bisexual' weren't a legit orientation--the article writer comes off as if she's claiming switches aren't even a thing. It's not cool. It's not right. Erasure is not right. Switches can be switches and still be legitimately kinky and non-vanilla.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:44:16 PM by Blythe »

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2016, 11:20:38 PM »
Thank you for that, Blythe. That really bothered me.

I mean, I know I'm not straight (I'm kinda... well, parabolic, I guess?), and I'm not male, and not entirely white, but the article writer seems to have a lot of hang-ups about what is to be considered legitimate and allowed in their community. Which is odd, given the lengths they go to in order to say they love it all. So, it leaves me wondering... Who are you to get to decide how much of a kink is a kink, for one? That something "isn't really all that kinky anyway" is... ridiculous. If someone feels as though they are isolated and need some kind of support in order to safely explore something they like, isn't that... kinda what the community is for? Regardless what it is? It seems as though judgements are being made based on this person's perception of "mainstream" and "commonality". There are a lot of common kinks, doesn't mean they're any less kinky.

To assume that a single mindset - dominant, submissive, switch, various variations - within a set cannot be counted on as far as the kink community goes actually undermines ... all of it. No one said a kink HAD to be counter-culture - that's just what you've made out of it. Not every kink lines up with cult mentality and ostracism. And if you're trying to tell me that only those who have suffered for their kink are welcome, then you've missed the whole point of the whole thing from the word "go".

God bless you, anyone, who becomes part of the community. I'd far rather you at least try to learn to do it right, rather than letting someone on the inside holier-than-thou you out of the race. The rest of us are here for you.