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Author Topic: This article actually pissed me off.  (Read 1173 times)

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Offline Beautiful Mystery

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2016, 11:34:42 PM »
Alright, I should start by saying that I am not involved in the D/s community. In fact, I only started learning a lot about it when I came to E. I had filled out an F-list a few years ago and found so many different things that I had no idea was a kink. So again, this is coming from someone who has no experience of D/s or anything of the sort. I have dabbled lightly with some roleplay here but I am super hesitant about it. Okay, onto why I came here!

I think...I think I get what she was trying to say, even if she went off on tangents and was certainly very polarizing. I think what she was trying to get across are the male doms who think that Christian Grey did everything right. After reading 50 Shades, thinking "Well hot damn, now I want to do that!" and using 50 Shades as their "manual" so to speak. Yes, those men (they are not all white, and probably not all males) are not helping the kink community. The ones who do abuse and don't obey safe words. Yes, those people (how do we know there is not women abusing the power?) can either get informed or kindly get out of the way. People should be well informed of how to play out a kink safely before trying to dive into it. Think about how many accidental deaths are attributed to autoerotic asphyxiation?

The way she presented this was very rude and nasty. If what I just mentioned was her original mission, she completely overshadowed it by the way she wrote things. Unless a kink is illegal, then who are we to judge? People shouldn't give a damn what other people like.

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 11:44:13 PM »
I agree.

There was a valid point, if that's what she was trying to get at. But if so, she only really mentioned the overlying point once, in point number six.

I'm not positive that's what was meant, but if it is, then yes I agree with you.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2016, 11:48:12 PM »
Sigh.  I get identified as a straight white male, and yet...

My great grandmother was North Dakota Blackfoot.  Her son-in-law, my grandfather, was descended from a Frenchman who came to Canada in 1668, married a native American woman, and between them and me were 16 more family of native American descent.  The French themselves are mixed of the native (at the time of Julius Caesar) Gauls, mixed with Visigoths, Vandals, and other tribes that came from the east, some even from the Asian steppes.

What really is race?  Genetically, we're all descended from the same hundred or so people who left Africa, bottlenecked by a particularly bad ice age.  When people identify others as 'white' or 'black', I usually get the feeling it's more a cultural thing than genetic thing, because, genetically, we're all unique when you get down to it.  The tone of your skin or the millimeters of your epicanthic fold or the width of your nose or lips is all superficial.

Gender and sexuality are correctly identified as spectrums now.  Ethnicity isn't even a spectrum; it's a case-by-case thing.  Culture, though, can be monolithic.

Really, when it comes to D/s and M/s, it is just like vanilla relationships but even more so: empathy rules.  Any relationship needs empathy, respect, and trust, but when it is more intense like D/s and M/s, the empathy, respect, and trust need to be more intense as well.

I can understand the author's consideration of conservatives, though.  I find the difference between conservatives and liberals likewise a spectrum--of how they express their empathy--just for those in their immediate identity group...or for all people in general.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2016, 11:55:37 PM »
I find the difference between conservatives and liberals likewise a spectrum--of how they express their empathy--just for those in their immediate identity group...or for all people in general.

They are like two groups of popular kids, each trying to outdo the other by being popular and showing favor to those in their groups, not realizing they both look dated and out of touch. :P

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2016, 12:13:13 AM »


What really is race?  Genetically, we're all descended from the same hundred or so people who left Africa, bottlenecked by a particularly bad ice age.  When people identify others as 'white' or 'black', I usually get the feeling it's more a cultural thing than genetic thing, because, genetically, we're all unique when you get down to it.  The tone of your skin or the millimeters of your epicanthic fold or the width of your nose or lips is all superficial.



Race is a construct created by racist scientists. In America, it was way to divide to say that, for example, black people were animals and not human at all. A way to say that if your skin matched the same as the white colonists, that you were better. So

Race just has a very toxic past. But I think, no matter what, Humans would've seen the differences either way.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-01.htm

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2016, 12:26:01 AM »
Race is a construct created by racist scientists. In America, it was way to divide to say that, for example, black people were animals and not human at all. A way to say that if your skin matched the same as the white colonists, that you were better. So

Race just has a very toxic past. But I think, no matter what, Humans would've seen the differences either way.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-01.htm

Can't go wrong with PBS :)

Even if there were not race and we all looked exactly the same, I guarantee every last dollar I have, that we would still find a reason to hate, kill, and abuse one another.

Its in our nature, that savage animal in the deepest part of our brain that remains chained up, but always whispers  the dark, violent, hateful thoughts in our minds. Its the devil on our shoulder, the voice that tells us to lie, cheat, steal, rob, rape and kill.

It is as powerful as a God but also as weak as a mouse. Because it only ever wins when given power over us, when we give in and listen to its sweet lies and act to harm others.

Race is a lie used by Humans to hurt other Humans. We all came from the Earth and at the very end we all return to it. That's the long and short of it, my father put it depressingly to me when he said at the end of life the worms eat everyone all the same, Rich, Poor, Black, White. It doesn't matter in the slightest. *Suddenly realizing a lot of what he said was not appropriate for a young child*

Besides the only ones we should hold ill will towards are those foul Reticulans and other alien scum setting foot on Earth. Earth is for Humans only! :P
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 12:27:14 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2016, 12:26:52 AM »
Even if there were not race and we all looked exactly the same, we would find a reason to hate, kill, and abuse one another. Its in our nature, that savage animal in the deepest part of our brain that remains chained up, but always whispers  the dark, violent, hateful thoughts in our minds. Its the devil on our shoulder, the voice that tells us to lie, cheat, steal, rob, rape and kill.

It is as powerful as a God but also as weak as a mouse. Because it only ever wins when given power over us, when we give in and listen to its sweet lies and act to harm others.

Race is a lie used by Humans to hurt other Humans. We all came from the Earth and at the very end we all return to it. That's the long and short of it, my father put it depressingly to me when he said at the end of life the worms eat everyone all the same, Rich, Poor, Black, White. It doesn't matter in the slightest. *Suddenly realizing a lot of what he said was not appropriate for a young child*

Besides the only ones we should hold ill will towards are those foul Reticulans and other alien scum setting foot on Earth. Earth is for Humans only! :P

I said Humans would find a way....

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2016, 12:28:40 AM »
I said Humans would find a way....

Ah, I missed that *derp moment* Sorry.  :-[

Just like life, I always find a way to be dumb :P

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2016, 04:41:58 AM »
Here's the thing. If it was saying "All you bad Doms get out," then I would agree with her more. I would still disagree - I think the big thing is education and experience, and a lot of bad Doms aren't bad intentionally, they just haven't got the relevant experience and pointers to be good Doms yet; we all start somewhere - but I would understand where she was coming from. But nowhere does the author state "Oh, but you good Doms, you can stay." No, she just says "You straight males who like to Dom can fuck off, it isn't a kink and you're horrible people." Not in so many words, but...that is basically what she's saying. She mentions 50SoG once, and if that was the main point of her article, it would be at the beginning, not at the end of the list, tacked on like an afterthought. And if she was telling "Bad Doms" to get out, she wouldn't also target Switches, since - in my experience - Switches all too often make the best Doms since - as somebody pointed out already - they (we) have experience of both sides, so we can empathise and identify more with what the Sub needs (I like to think I'm a good Dom, but only my partners would be able to say that; everybody thinks they're the best, haha).

So whilst I think the whole "Bad Doms who come in thinking they automatically own you and can do whatever they want and think that Grey did everything right can piss off" is more understandable...I don't think that's what she was going for, since she never made that distinction. And if she were, that whole tangent on Switches wouldn't be there. She also wouldn't have taken the time to clarify that submissive men were OK, or that she likes walking into a room and seeing a man in a cage rather than a person in a cage. She also wouldn't have outright said that Male Doms aren't engaging in a kink, they're "Just reflecting a Social Norm." It just reads like she has an issue with Male Doms full stop, and that's what I have an issue with; the hypocritical, ignorant kink shaming.

It's ironic, really. She criticises 50SoG for missing the point of a BDSM relationship and being ignorant of the wider community (which it is) and then in the next breath displays a shocking level of ignorance and intolerance of her own towards a Kink she obviously doesn't understand.

And, of course, as a Switch I'm still steaming about the whole "Switch Isn't A Thing." I'll have you know, bitch, I'm probably more kinky than you in some ways! My sub tastes are very extreme compared to my Dom tastes. >.>
But that's just me.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 04:43:02 AM by Vergil Tanner »

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 11:20:08 PM »
All I could think of at the end there, darling, was Kermit with his tea.

But I agree with you on many points. My problem, too, is that it seems to be targetted at men dominating women, in whatever sense. And I think some of the problem is that part that's lost in translation: The difference between a kink and vanilla sex. A kink drives deeper into the heart of exploring a psychological and emotional crossroads in relation to an action, a thought or the change in dynamic. It is possible for a straight white male to engage in vanilla sex just as it is for anyone to engage in all the various levels of kinkiness. I think that's the disconnect between what I know, from my own experiences (which would be that the kink is in the action and the people who are prepared for the reaction) and not in the definition of their genitals. In fact, I might go so far as to accuse of sexism, though I hardly think that's necessary right now.

More to the point, every kink is an array of hit and miss. Some people prefer to submit themselves to wax play while others prefer to be the dominant figure in knife play, as an example. Excellent! Go my little kink nerds, and be the nerdiest kink nerds ever! And while there is a commonality of the kink, that doesn't make it mainstream. I think, in fact, that a whole world of Rocky Horror Picture Show fans would give anyone evil stares who suggested such a thing. Just because some men happen to land in "likes to be dominant" and "is straight" and also "happens to be white" at the same time, doesn't mean that there aren't just as wide an array of people outside the demographic who like to be dominant, or in that demographic who like to do... pretty much anything else.

The only way I can see to justifying the attitude (not the argument, mind, just the attitude, since that's the part I'm having trouble with) of the article were if she were trying to point out that those who are otherwise vanilla and simply want to be obeyed in the bedroom... That's indicative of a patriarchy infection. Even then, it's not a justification to close doors to them. Let them do them. They're not asking you to be part of it, then there's no need even to acknowledge it beyond a nod as you pass in the hallway.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2016, 11:14:37 AM »
Well, I would argue that even men who simply want to be obeyed in the bedroom isn't necessarily a "patriarchal infection." Some people just get off on being in charge...why does that have to be something that "THE PATRIARCHY" has caused, and not something that they just...enjoy? There's a difference, after all, between "Enjoying" it and "Expecting" it. And even then, how the hell do you go about proving that somebody wants to be in control because of Social / Traditional / Conservative reasons and not just because - for example - they feel out of control in their day to day life and enjoy exerting power over something? Even then, it doesn't really justify the attitude because if she wants to claim that men who like Vanilla Sex, but just so happen to enjoy being in charge is because of "THE PATRIARCHY," she has to prove it. She can't just assert it and have it accepted as fact. She needs to prove it...and that is difficult, because that is then effectively trying to prove intent which is always tough without Professor Xavier anywhere nearby. And on a tangent, even then what do you do about it? Do you punish or exclude them because they enjoy it for a distasteful reason? Then you're getting into Thought Crimes, and that opens a whole can of man-eating worms that would be better off left alone.

I just think that the author was using it as an excuse to go on a rant about how "Straight White Men" are invading HER passtime, and how dare they enjoy what THEY want because they're all sexist pigs...ironically not understanding that she herself is exposing herself as a sexist. So I can see that angle...but I don't think excuses the attitude, because it still relies on knowing somebodies intent and their deep psychological reasons for enjoying a thing...and you can never assume somebodies motivations and punish them for it, because down that route Orwell lies. >.>

Offline RedRose

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 01:09:52 PM »
I agree it's a double standard. The same way a wife who hits her husband can be considered "funny".

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2016, 11:21:18 PM »
That's always bothered me too, Red.

Vergil, I think I actually agree with you, now, more than with what I said. There's no good way to justify it. Understand, maybe, but that doesn't make it justifiable.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2016, 12:18:01 AM »
It is interesting to think that...vanilla is only considered vanilla...because of prevailing cultural norms.  In another culture, or another intelligent species, such sex could be considered highly out of the ordinary.  The way she looks down on it, though, reveals her own bias, doesn't it?

Offline Warlock

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2016, 05:39:24 AM »
To provide a good contrast of varying cultural norms regarding sex and expression of sexuality, is to look at Tennessee where concepts like "gateway sexual activity" is part of the education. Which Includes any sexual contact which can lead to sex or pregancy, like kissing, or even advocating such expression on the part of a teacher.

Imagine anything outside of the missionary position is considered a kink by the legislators, or close to it.

Provides the amendments and bills. Don't support the organization in the link.
http://factn.org/portfolio/sb-3310hb-3621-amends-sex-education-curriculum-guidelines/

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Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2016, 09:20:56 AM »


Max is indeed wise.

We all need to detour before we fall in any further. :-)

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2016, 09:37:50 AM »
Basically. Sites like these put up polarizing and disagreeable articles like this all the time with the intent for people to hate it. The outcry in response results in more visits to their site and therefore ad revenue. It's literally using the current negative perception of feminism and emphasizing all of its negative aspects to get more money from people's dislike. I can Guarantee that there is no form of moderation in the comments section of OP's article.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 09:39:43 AM by FarFetched »

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2016, 11:19:36 AM »
Well...it's impossible to tell whether this was an attempt to exploit the negative perceptions of Third Wave Feminism or if the author actually believes what she wrote. I mean, even if this particular article isn't a genuinely feminist one, I've seen other, similar ones from people who definitely identify as Feminists and who definitely believe it. It's not an outright example of Poe's Law, but it's certainly related to it since even if it's not genuine, its indistinguishable from the real thing.

Either way, it sparks a conversation that does in many ways need to be had about how to categorise "Acceptable" kinks, and the nature of Domming / Subbing, as well as what to do with people who either aren't good at it, or misunderstand the concept of the roles themselves. Plus, it does reflect a misunderstanding and common thread in society at large which is basically "Anything that is different / that I don't understand is BAD." And that's something that bears talking about, if nothing else.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2016, 11:43:11 AM »
Perfectly possible to carry on these conversations without falling for the click-bait.  And they are conversations that need to happen, because not every female sub is a sub because 'society says they have to be'.  Back when I was in college, I avoided a class in the Women's Studies department because it had the core tenet that women could either be the 'strong independent woman that don't need no man', or the 'housewife who supports her manly man in all that he does.'  One can quite easily be the CEO of a company and still want to come home and be dominated in the bedroom.  Regardless of gender or sexuality.  Hell, I can see someone wanting that simply because of the fact that they spend the whole day making important decisions.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2016, 12:23:42 PM »
One can quite easily be the CEO of a company and still want to come home and be dominated in the bedroom.  Regardless of gender or sexuality.  Hell, I can see someone wanting that simply because of the fact that they spend the whole day making important decisions.

Isn't that basically why High Powered CEO's and businessmen and the like go to Dominatrixes in the first place? XD

I mean, that's the stereotype, but it's true. Men and women typically tend to enjoy Subbing and Domming for pretty much the same general reasons, haha.

But yeah, that's the kind of attitude that doesn't help; "You're either with us or against us!" "You can't be independent AND like X!" "If you make this choice, you're using your independence wrong!" Etc ad nauseum.
And truthfully, you should avoid most "Womens Studies" courses. A Degree in Womens/Gender Studies (the name varies from Uni to Uni), in my experience (I know several people who did that course or one similar), isn't worth the paper it's printed on most of the time.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 12:26:09 PM by Vergil Tanner »

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2016, 01:05:35 PM »
And truthfully, you should avoid most "Womens Studies" courses. A Degree in Womens/Gender Studies (the name varies from Uni to Uni), in my experience (I know several people who did that course or one similar), isn't worth the paper it's printed on most of the time.

In my case, it was required for my core curriculum (x number of hours in y classification), not my actual degree (Bachelor's in Mathematics).  I ended up filling it with 'Biology of Women,' which was essentially a snooze-class for me.  Sadly, the 'Issues of Women and Leadership' course just kept conflicting with classes that were required for my major.  O:)

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2016, 01:19:20 PM »
*laughs* Hey, if they offer a course called something like "Understanding Women: A Mans 101 On How To Deal," I will be in the front note taking plenty of bloody notes. >.>

Y'know. Basically, when they start teaching something useful. :P

Offline RedRose

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2016, 01:53:10 PM »
I discovered the concept of women studies or gender studies online. While it seemed interesting per se, I've often been very puzzled by the content!

I've definitely met the kind of feminists who consider it such a waste/so backwards if your choice differs from theirs... My mom has a doctorate and a couple other degrees but chose to stay home to raise me, for years, and they did not like that! :D

I'm not into BDSM but I can't really be attracted to someone who doesn't have at least a slighly "stronger" personality than I do. I also need to look up to him in some way. One of my friends, who is very successful and has a ton of degrees, once told me that despite (?) this the thing she dreams of hearing from a guy is "no worries I'll handle it all" ;)

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2016, 02:19:06 PM »
You and me both! Even when I had the content explained to me, I kind of did a head tilt and was like "....and that's useful....how?" Or just a flat "I don't get it." XD

Oh, definitely! Too many people in the movement today seem to want to control peoples choices. I thought feminism was about giving women agency and independence, not taking it away, y'know? You give them equal opportunities and if they decide to be a stay at home mum, then that's their decision. Surely that's feminism in action, right? Alas, too many seem to view it as a "There's Only One Right Way To Be Independent" thing, which I just shake my head sadly at. It's part of why I don't identify as a feminist, but that's a rabbit hole for a different thread! XD

And I get that! That's not that weird...whilst there are people who like having a subservient personality, I think most people need to feel challenged in some way in order to remain interested, y'know? For me, at least, any relationship is an equal partnership that needs mutual respect, balance and complimentary strengths to work. And hey, I think everybody likes to hear from time to time "Don't worry about it, I got this," since everybody likes to feel like they don't have to worry and that that important thing that was stressing you out or that minor chore that's just the cherry on a massive stresscake is being taken care of by somebody else so you can just forget about it. At least, that's my view on that matter. I can't speak for everybody, of course! :P