CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists

[Beguile's Mistress]

Children in schools shouldn't be afraid that someone with a gun will come into their classroom and shoot them.  By your logic the safety precautions school districts are taking and the training teachers and staff are receiving to handle situations like that is nonsense.  School shootings shouldn't happen so the targets - teachers and students - don't need to be educated in ways to keep themselves safe if it happens.


NOTE:  Not in response to Kythia but continuing what I posted ahead of her.

[Maiz]

That's not what she said.

Why are people getting offended by the idea of personal awareness being a thing when it comes to rape when it's already a thing for, you know, every other crime in existence?

Is it your fault when you're conned out of your life savings by fraudulent Nigerian royalty emails? No, it's their fault for scamming you, but there are precautions you could take to avoid that kind of thing and lower the chances of being victim to it again in future.

Victims don't go out and proactively give rapists opportunities to rape them. We just sometimes don't consider how our actions leave us open to unwanted interactions. Look at BeMi's little list of safety ideas a few posts above us: Driving or walking through a bad area at night is a good one. If you do that, are you looking for trouble? Probably not unless you're suicidal. You were probably just taking the shortest route home, or you didn't know the area was that dangerous, or whatever. It still makes you a target of opportunity, unfortunately. A target you would not have been had you been made aware of the danger beforehand and taken a different route as a result.

Because these precautions don't fucking work. I know so many fucking women who do all these precautions and still get assaulted and raped. So what were they doing wrong? They dared to trust a guy friend? They dared to be a vulnerable thirteen year old? They dared to have a rapist dad?

Most rapes dont fucking happen when a woman is drunk (and it's fucking deceptive to act as if the rapist doesn't slip things into the victim's drink or abuses his trust to pressure her to drink more).

And maybe people are getting offended because this idea of "personal awareness" is used to excuse rape, to harass victims, to blame them for the crime committed against them, for not prosecuting rape.

You don't see robbery not taken seriously because a rich person walks down an ally. It gets prosecuted. It is actually taken seriously. But whenever a woman is raped and reports it people assume she's lying, that there was a misunderstanding, that she was wearing jeans too tight so obviously she wasnt raped because she had to take them off herself, that she allowed herself to get into that position of being raped.

I think there should be a bigger effort to change the fucking culture that we live in that allows rape to happen, that allows questions like "well what did she do wrong to get raped" to be asked. That will do something.

The completely misogynistic and idiotic way to stop rape is to just put the onus on victims and potential victims. I don't understand why you are fighting so hard to not teach people to not rape. I'm not even arguing that people shouldn't be taught precautions. just that ultimately these precautions are useless. If someone wants to rape a person then they will do it. I don't understand why you would rather warn people to take precautions instead of teaching people not to rape.

Kythia- Don't stick words in my mouth. That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that telling victims how not to get rape is ineffective and ignores how sexism and misogyny are at play. For every person someone tells to take precautions there are scores more who take those precautions and are raped anyways.

And Beguile's Mistress. One, I would not use the same logic about rape/sexual assault to school shootings. However, I want to point out, when that does happen, are children blamed? Are they asked "well what did you do to provoke the shooter? did you make him angry? were you wearing the wrong thing?" Of course not. That would be preposterous. But yet rape victims often face questions about what precautions they did/didn't take when they report the crime done to them.

[Shjade]

The completely misogynistic and idiotic way to stop rape is to just put the onus on victims and potential victims. I don't understand why you are fighting so hard to not teach people to not rape. I'm not even arguing that people shouldn't be taught precautions. just that ultimately these precautions are useless. If someone wants to rape a person then they will do it. I don't understand why you would rather warn people to take precautions instead of teaching people not to rape.

Kythia- Don't stick words in my mouth.

If you're going to tell other people not to stick words in your mouth, kindly extend others the same courtesy. I have at no point said people shouldn't be taught rape is unacceptable and shouldn't be done. I, like BeMi and others, advocate doing both, because there's still going to be risk regardless and it's good to know how to mitigate that risk.

Does that mean you're guaranteed to not get raped? No, and no one's claiming it is. It's no different from avoiding that bad part of town when you're driving home: you could still get carjacked in the nice part of town if your luck's bad enough. Things happen. That's no reason to go out of your way to put yourself in a riskier position.

People need to know rape isn't okay and people need to know how best to avoid being a victim of it. This isn't going to suddenly erase rape from global events, but they both help.

I don't understand why you're fighting so hard to claim I'm insisting on things that I'm not saying at all.

[Maiz]

Because when you keep saying "people need to know how best to avoid being a victim of it" you are using victim blaming language, you are repeating arguments that have gone on for decades, and is ineffective and unhelpful and only causes victims to blame themselves on top of society that already blames them. You cannot mitigate rape by telling people how not to get raped.

[Ephiral]

EDIT: It has come to light that I've been letting my own experiences taint my judgement badly. I should not have spoken here. I am deeply sorry for any and all offense I may have caused.

[Beguile's Mistress]

And Beguile's Mistress. One, I would not use the same logic about rape/sexual assault to school shootings. However, I want to point out, when that does happen, are children blamed? Are they asked "well what did you do to provoke the shooter? did you make him angry? were you wearing the wrong thing?" Of course not. That would be preposterous. But yet rape victims often face questions about what precautions they did/didn't take when they report the crime done to them.

No the children aren't blamed.  And people who are raped shouldn't be blamed either.  Been there done that and it's wrong.

What you have to remember is that if you can prevent a rape because you gave a warning you should give that warning.  If you can keep a young person safe by telling them how poor choices can put them in danger you should do that.  You have no right to decide for that young person what they should believe about inequality or fairness and if you can educate someone and don't because of your own personal opinions you aren't a very good role model to say the least. 

Because when you keep saying "people need to know how best to avoid being a victim of it" you are using victim blaming language, you are repeating arguments that have gone on for decades, and is ineffective and unhelpful and only causes victims to blame themselves on top of society that already blames them. You cannot mitigate rape by telling people how not to get raped.

Oh.  I see.  Don't give the warning because the words don't please you?  Don't teach someone how to protect themself because you don't like the language?  Boogey smoosh!  Professionals who teach self-defense courses use the language.  The victims themselves use the same language.  Once you've been raped you don't let yourself get lost in rhetoric.  You get down to the nuts and bolts of the matter and learn how to protect yourself.

Rapists rape, pure and simple.  People who care teach others how to protect themselves.  They put the safety of the person ahead of their political stance and opinions.

[Rhapsody]

But these things aren't exclusive.  This isn't an either/or situation.  There are tips that can prevent rapes from happening.  Refusing to use them because they shouldn't be necessary is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Sure, rapes are comitted by rapists.  But they are comitted by rapists with the opportunity to do so. 

A man's default state is not rapist. They do not need codes of behaviour or dress to avoid raping someone. They simply don't. And every male on this board should be offended you're suggesting they are.

[Beguile's Mistress]

A man's default state is not rapist. They do not need codes of behaviour or dress to avoid raping someone. They simply don't. And every male on this board should be offended you're suggesting they are.

I can't see where anything in the post you quoted reflects any of that.

[Ephiral]

EDIT: It has come to light that I've been letting my own experiences taint my judgement badly. I should not have spoken here. I am deeply sorry for any and all offense I may have caused.

[Maiz]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/11/gun-industry-profits-will-not-stop-rape/

Zerlina Maxwell phrases what I want to convey better. The conversation has been and continues to be telling people how to avoid rape, or take precautions to not get raped. I have heard people tell me to watch my drink or my friend's drink, and I do follow that advice and it is good advice to know. However, I almost never hear a conversation about men not raping. Instead I see a construction of rape scenarios where it only occurs when there's some other factor at play (like the victim is drunk or incapacitated). So it's always the "well maybe this wouldn't have happened if she hadn't been so drunk" type of conversation.

It is more helpful and needed to teach people, at all ages, not to rape. To teach them what rape is, to teach them what is unacceptable. Just telling people to take precautions is not good enough, and yet it's the only thing that's done. Anti-rape campaigns that target potential rapists are so so so rare, so to act as if these campaigns happen as often or as commonly as telling someone to wear the right clothing/don't drink/don't flirt/etc, is completely disingenuous.

And I don't believe that making poor choices somehow okays rape or somehow minimizes the culpability of the rapist. Even if someone flirted with someone, got black out drunk, or whatever, that doesn't mean it's okay for them to be raped. I think that that kind of thinking is damaging because it implies that if only they made the good choice they would be safe, when in reality so many people make "good choices" and still get raped. How well do these cautionary warnings work if people are raped anyways? We need to change the culture that allows rape to happen, not put a bandaid on the issue by telling people how to lessen their chances of rape. Because that has been done and I have not seen any proof or studies or anything to suggest that it helps or lessens rape.

And B's M, don't presume to know about my personal history and don't imply that I don't care just because I argue for a different conversation around rape.

[Ephiral]

EDIT: It has come to light that I've been letting my own experiences taint my judgement badly. I should not have spoken here. I am deeply sorry for any and all offense I may have caused.

[Beguile's Mistress]

The point here isn't justifying, minimizing or mitigating rape or the culpability of the rapist so it would be really great if that accusation was removed from the table.

There is no one who has commented in this thread who believes anything excuses the rapist for what he or she has done.

I'm currently watching the 20/20 episode from last night.  I forgot I had recorded it. 

[gaggedLouise]

A man's default state is not rapist. They do not need codes of behaviour or dress to avoid raping someone. They simply don't. And every male on this board should be offended you're suggesting they are.

Been following the thread and I don't see her saying anything of the sort. Rather:

Yes, but if, God forbid, I were raped because I didn't take basic common sense precautions my thought wouldn't be "Well, at least I struck a blow for gender equality".

IMO that one makes the point that victim-blaming is none of her thing. It's only if one is taking the line that rape victims are always of one sex and rapists nearly always of the other sex (males) that it would begin to look like there was a point in saying men are rapists by default. And it would still be a delusional point.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I know a lot of men who aren't rapists and I know of six females who are.

[Shjade]

Because when you keep saying "people need to know how best to avoid being a victim of it" you are using victim blaming language, you are repeating arguments that have gone on for decades, and is ineffective and unhelpful and only causes victims to blame themselves on top of society that already blames them. You cannot mitigate rape by telling people how not to get raped.

No, I'm really not. I'm using sensible, rational language. If you find yourself in a location where people are very often <insert any crime here>, it's a sensible idea to consider how best to avoid being caught up in <aforementioned crime> if you're going to be in that location. Whether or not you decide to look up anything on that subject, if you're a victim of <bracketed words again hooray>, hey, you're a victim, shit happens. If you decided not to heed any advice on the subject, that doesn't make it your fault.

Is it possible you put yourself in a more compromising position than you might have if you'd been more mindful of the relevant risk factors? Sure, it's possible, but that's not the same thing as having invited an attack on your person. For all anyone knows you'd have ended up in exactly the same spot if you'd done everything "right." It's not your fault either way; it's the fault of whoever did the deed.

Maybe I'm just an overmasculine moronic man, but I don't understand the difference here between taking caution to avoid rape and taking caution to avoid anything else happening that you don't want to have happen. To me, just in theory, it's the same as all the other stuff we've listed previously in the thread. Whether or not there's a shit-ton of sexist baggage attached in the case of rape is irrelevant to whether or not things can be done to try to lessen personal risk factors. It simply doesn't matter. The misogynist assholes are going to victim-blame no matter what the victim did.

An upstanding woman could have been wearing a burqa, defended herself against two assailants with a stun gun, blown her rape whistle like there was no tomorrow and screamed all the right words in seven different languages and there would still be people claiming she clearly begged for the D from those five guys who posted her violation on Facebook.

Why?

Because unfortunately, as far as I can tell, humans suck. We just have to deal with that as best we can, whatever form that sucking happens to take at any given moment.

Educating people not to rape is great. It does, however, only have an effect on a specific group: people who aren't intending to rape and just kinda derp their way into it via liquor, peer pressure, for some reason thinking what they're doing doesn't count, being idiots, whatever. As you put it earlier, "If someone wants to rape a person then they will do it." I don't know why you seem to think telling that person, "No, you shouldn't do that - rape is wrong," is going to change his or her mind. See, me? I'm 99% sure they fucking know that already. The problem is they don't give a shit, so hey, maybe we should think of ways to try avoiding them. Startling insight, I know.

[gaggedLouise]

*nods to BeMi* Last time I checked, most men I know didn't even need to be lectured on how raping or beating up women is not cool. It's simply off limits to the large majority of males, and I'm not trying to pass any one gender off as inherently better than the other here.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I just finished watching the 20/20 episode about the Steubenville football players.

It was horrendous and the sickening and the sad thing is that none of the kids - boys and girls - thought there was anything wrong with what was happening.

[DarklingAlice]

It was horrendous and the sickening and the sad thing is that none of the kids - boys and girls - thought there was anything wrong with what was happening.

This is one of the more interesting things about it to me. And actually speaks towards the need for more 'don't commit rape' campaigns'. It's clear that a number of rapists have an infantile concept about rape, and I really don't know how we got into a state where that is possible. I think that is a legitimate tragedy. And that we should feel sorry for them.

Relevant blog link: http://badmenproject.com/posts/201303/steubinville-and-carmel-classic-illustration-its-about-abuse-power-not-sex

Do you notice how everything on your list is gender neutral, while only women have to worry about "how not to get raped" advice?  How do you not see this as a problem?

Y'know, I have only so much patience for the sexist bullshit in this discussion (and our culture at large). Everyone needs "how not to get raped" advice because everyone is at risk of rape. Period. Make up statistics all you like and whine about how ratios mean it's 'not a gender-neutral problem', the fact remains that anyone can be a victim of rape, anyone can be a perpetrator of rape, and no one should ever have to suffer through it. We need clear delineation and education as to what rape is and how to avoid it for all genders. No rapist should ever be able to look back on their actions and genuinely say:

"I can assure there was absolutely no malice in my actions. At the time, I truly believed this was normal everyday athletic team horseplay. After reflecting, I came to realize how I could have put a teammate in a situation in which they were uncomfortable."

[gaggedLouise]

I just finished watching the 20/20 episode about the Steubenville football players.

It was horrendous and the sickening and the sad thing is that none of the kids - boys and girls - thought there was anything wrong with what was happening.

Did they talk in a way that suggested that she had built a "slutty reputation" well before that night? In their eyes that is - so that using her could look like a natural thing, 'innocent fun'? That's a manner of victim-blaming which you do get to see in that kind of case, among those who were involved or witnesses, but no one here on E has been suggesting it.

[Beguile's Mistress]

The timeline of the events was discussed, the number of kids at the various parties, the pictures and videos the boys and girls took and posted online and the disparaging comments the kids made.  A lot was made of the fact that the girl was treated like a toy and how no one stepped up to help her.  There were adults at one of the houses and they did nothing.  Not much was said about the girl other than in passing and at the end her attorney said she is moving on and doing well in school, playing soccer.  Her mother went into the courtroom to hear the boys' remarks and the attorney said she has forgiven them.  There were no statements from the girl.

[Trieste]

... I find the 'safety tips' posts in this discussion disturbing.

The definition of rape, the very concept, is that it's an act of physical violence that the victim cannot prevent. Why is it being implied that if women just partied a little safer they wouldn't get raped? Rape is not about sex, so of course it shouldn't be implied that sexy clothing and sexy language and flirting bring about rape... So why is it being implied that women (or victims in general; I'm using women here because it has been the gender being discussed) have any control whatsoever over the actions of a sick person who decides to take advantage of them? It doesn't matter if you don't walk down a dark alley - if someone is planning to rape you, then they are planning to try to rape you. We have known since the 60s that the majority of rapes are somewhat planned. Planned. Planned. Instilling a series of paranoid rituals that are supposed to protect against that is laughable, ridiculous, and insulting.

I'm ... deeply, painfully offended by what I'm reading. I cannot believe I'm reading this on Elliquiy. Dear god.

[Caehlim]

The type of person who would commit an act like this, clearly isn't a compassionate or empathetic individual. Wouldn't the type of statements we've talked about CNN saying "Look at these people who had everything and then threw it away" be more effective at reaching them than some entreaty to their better nature?

[gaggedLouise]

... I find the 'safety tips' posts in this discussion disturbing.

The definition of rape, the very concept, is that it's an act of physical violence that the victim cannot prevent. Why is it being implied that if women just partied a little safer they wouldn't get raped? Rape is not about sex, so of course it shouldn't be implied that sexy clothing and sexy language and flirting bring about rape... So why is it being implied that women (or victims in general; I'm using women here because it has been the gender being discussed) have any control whatsoever over the actions of a sick person who decides to take advantage of them? It doesn't matter if you don't walk down a dark alley - if someone is planning to rape you, then they are planning to try to rape you. We have known since the 60s that the majority of rapes are somewhat planned. Planned. Planned. Instilling a series of paranoid rituals that are supposed to protect against that is laughable, ridiculous, and insulting.

I'm ... deeply, painfully offended by what I'm reading. I cannot believe I'm reading this on Elliquiy. Dear god.

I really can't see any posts in this thread even touching on tips in the vein of "young women need to dress conservatively, use moderate make-up, avoid getting too loud and flirtatious, avoid going to bars and private homes they have not been to before, and they must not get drunk at all - that way they will strongly decrease the chances of incurring rape" etc. The kind of tips that focus on girls' manners and on sticking to a neat and proper image to avoid stirring up the lusty, dirty boys. 99% of the advice I've seen here has been about taking precautions to avoid getting raped on the way home, or getting so stoned you would really become rather helpless to protect yourself or call the attention of other people at the party or nearby - that, or looking out a bit for some other woman to see that she doesn't land in that kind of trouble. Tips about keeping a casual eye on the people around you, on the lighting at a lonely alley, a parking lot, about not exposing one's person in a risky place on the way out or home.

It's nothing about cleavage shown or inviting talk. And you know what, Trie? Lots of rapes are committed precisely on the way home, or in somebody's home, the victim's home or the assailant's, with few or no witnesses. Well, I do believe you know that. Yes, the Steubenville event was gruesome but most "party related rapes" don't happen that way, in full view of lots of people.

Some of Beguile's tips on safety struck me as stuff that's mostly done by women, as a picked-up or taught habit, but that doesn't make them sexist. And they don't apply just to rape or sexual assault either. Most men don't feel nervous about rape if they hear footsteps behind them in the street at night, women sometimes do - but a guy might still throw a glance backwards at that point or see to keep a distance because he's nervous about getting robbed or punched by someone.

[meikle]

A man's default state is not rapist. They do not need codes of behaviour or dress to avoid raping someone. They simply don't. And every male on this board should be offended you're suggesting they are.

I have seen a staggering amount of men who have said things like, "Anyone in those boys' situation would've done what they did!" or "They shouldn't be prosecuted, this could have happened to anyone!"

There is a terrifying culture of rape acceptance out there.  There are interesting articles about the way society shapes this; not all men are rapists, no, but most rapists think all men are rapists, so when men who aren't don't step up to shut that shit down, it just further empowers the rapists.

[DarklingAlice]

I have seen a staggering amount of men who have said things like, "Anyone in those boys' situation would've done what they did!" or "They shouldn't be prosecuted, this could have happened to anyone!"

There is a terrifying culture of rape acceptance out there.  There are interesting articles about the way society shapes this; not all men are rapists, no, but most rapists think all men are rapists, so when men who aren't don't step up to shut that shit down, it just further empowers the rapists.

The problem is that the corollary society has decided to tack onto that is: "no women are rapists" and "no men are ever raped". Which just speaks further to this delusional concept of rape that we as a culture have. So long as we cleave to a victim blaming, sexist, stranger-rape obsessed fairytale (e.g. the big bad man is waiting in a dark alley to take random strange women unawares on the way home as a crime of opportunity), we can't constructively address the problem. That notion is so far from what is actually happening that it results in rapists not understanding what they are doing (in some cases it results in entire communities not understanding what they are doing). That's a significant problem that will not go away without changing the popular paradigm.

As a separate topic it is interesting that no one is really talking about the power dynamic attached to a lot of these youth rapes. I think it speaks to something unhealthsome in the way sports teams, fraternities/sororities, etc. are structured when a disproportionate number of rapists can be drawn from their ranks.