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Author Topic: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists  (Read 11081 times)

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Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2013, 06:41:30 PM »
There is a lot of talk about that and a lot of talk about what not to do on both sides of the coin.  Some of the senior girls have started a group to counsel the younger girls about parties, drinking and behavior as they get exposed to these facts of life.  It's a kind of "Party safe - not sorry" movement.  I hope they can keep it alive.

While I'm not knocking on the notion of counselling, this bugs me because it carries on into the "all men are rapists by default" mindset this society has. Perhaps it shouldn't be the older girls teaching the younger girls how to behave at parties, and it should be the older boys, the ones that somehow miraculously made it past 16 without committing sexual assault, teaching the younger boys how to behave at parties.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2013, 06:47:04 PM »
While I'm not knocking on the notion of counselling, this bugs me because it carries on into the "all men are rapists by default" mindset this society has. Perhaps it shouldn't be the older girls teaching the younger girls how to behave at parties, and it should be the older boys, the ones that somehow miraculously made it past 16 without committing sexual assault, teaching the younger boys how to behave at parties.

The older girls are teaching self-respect, self-esteem and self-protection.  Since so many adults are taking the tack of screaming, ranting, strident abusive language about the boys who were guilty the girls feel safer with other young women rather than adults and the older boys they've been taught by the screamers to distrust.  Hate speak not only breeds hate it breeds fear and these girls are afraid.


Offline meikle

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2013, 06:59:05 PM »
The older girls are teaching self-respect, self-esteem and self-protection.  Since so many adults are taking the tack of screaming, ranting, strident abusive language about the boys who were guilty the girls feel safer with other young women rather than adults and the older boys they've been taught by the screamers to distrust.  Hate speak not only breeds hate it breeds fear and these girls are afraid.
They should be afraid.  Because their class mates are rapists, and the adults in their community defended them and targeted the victim.  This isn't hate speech, this is what happened.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2013, 07:01:35 PM »
The school I'm talking about isn't the one where the convicted boy attended.  This is another school.  Also I'm not sure where your remarks are leading nor that generalizations are either pertinent or productive.

Offline Oniya

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2013, 07:07:05 PM »
Ideally, all students should be given counseling about safe and sane partying.  Young boys and young girls should be taught that rape is not okay, the dangers of consuming alcohol and drugs in social situations, and that someone who is impaired (not to mention unconscious) is not qualified to say 'Yes, I want to do this.'

If the person really wants to do something (whether that's have sex or any of the ill-fated stunts that starts with 'Here, hold my beer'), then they should still want to do it when they're sober.

Offline meikle

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2013, 07:07:36 PM »
Quote
The school I'm talking about isn't the one where the convicted boy attended.  This is another school.
I guess I can't comprehend your point.

We're looking at a situation where two boys raped a girl in public -- took pictures, recorded themselves, joked about it -- where the girl's friend and community turned against her for daring to act on the crime against her.  Those people that young women don't trust -- boys and adults -- need to behave in a manner that is worthy of trust if they want to be trusted.  As long as we continue seeing schools going out of their way at an administrative level to silence victims (and Steubenville is certainly not the only case of this happening -- it's all over the news lately and all over the country), we should expect young women to be wary.

And when people do the things the people in Steubenville did, we should scream about it, we should bring to light how horrible and awful and unacceptable it is, and we should absolutely not let it remain in the dark the way that the administration in Steubenville hoped it would.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 07:09:33 PM by meikle »

Offline Oniya

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2013, 07:13:45 PM »
Her point is that the counseling groups she's talking about are in communities other than Steubenville.  The classmates of the girls receiving this particular counseling are not the rapists in question, and the adults in their community weren't the ones who defended them.  Assuming that the girls' classmates 'are rapists' is well over the top.

Offline meikle

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2013, 07:16:46 PM »
Her point is that the counseling groups she's talking about are in communities other than Steubenville.  The classmates of the girls receiving this particular counseling are not the rapists in question, and the adults in their community weren't the ones who defended them.  Assuming that the girls' classmates 'are rapists' is well over the top.

This point:
Quote
The older girls are teaching self-respect, self-esteem and self-protection.  Since so many adults are taking the tack of screaming, ranting, strident abusive language about the boys who were guilty the girls feel safer with other young women rather than adults and the older boys they've been taught by the screamers to distrust.  Hate speak not only breeds hate it breeds fear and these girls are afraid.
Should we not make noise when rapists are painted as the victims of the justice system, when administrative systems go out of their way to protect rapists, when rape victims are treated as the aggressors and subjected to death threats and ostracized for standing up for themselves?  I can't comprehend the idea that the we should be quiet and kind in this situation.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2013, 07:21:09 PM »
Basically what you are saying proves my point.  Students at a school removed from Steubenville have gone proactive to help girls learn how to protect themselves and each other and are using tools like the CNN report in the initial post to highlight what the two rapists threw away by doing what they did and why it was wrong.  This is a decision of the students.  They see a need for education of both the young men and young women.  As one of the class officers put it:  "If you don't want to get hit by a bus, don't stand in front of one." 

There is nothing right about what happened with the kids in the Steubenville incident or with the way it was covered up.  The kids don't think it's right and their parents don't think it's right.  Not all boys are rapists but try explaining that to a girl who has had to witness a violent rage by an adult she is supposed to trust and listen to hate-filled words of retribution, murder, incest and anal rape for the two boys who are guilty.

I guess I can't comprehend your point.
Evidently not.  You quoted my remark about a totally different school implying that the girls I'm talking about should be afraid because all the boys in their school are rapists and all of their parents participated in the coverup.  I'm not grasping your logic here.

Offline Caela

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2013, 07:24:50 PM »
Rape is listed as a crime that cannot be sealed. This will follow them their entire lives, and rightly should.

You are correct...I read that line wrong and just saw it as they couldn't be expunged. My bad, thanks for the correction!

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2013, 07:27:15 PM »
This point:Should we not make noise when rapists are painted as the victims of the justice system, when administrative systems go out of their way to protect rapists, when rape victims are treated as the aggressors and subjected to death threats and ostracized for standing up for themselves?  I can't comprehend the idea that the we should be quiet and kind in this situation.
I'd rather see it done in a mature and responsible way than with a lynch mob mentality.  It's the very violence of the protest that is frightening and words like "all boys are rapists" that confuse and frighten the kids who see the adults in their world acting like that.  You can be as angry as you want to be about the situation in Steubenville.  I'm pretty damn angry myself but ranting and swearing and talking hate and violence are counter-productive.

Offline Caehlim

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2013, 07:30:18 PM »
I don't feel much need to comment since I think Beguile's Mistress has said what I would want to say, and I doubt I could be any more eloquent than her.

However I will point out the real reason (in my opinion obviously) why the story focuses on the rapists. They're not allowed to show the face of the victim and want to make a news segment interesting in a visual medium. It's pure journalism/video production and says nothing about their editorial opinion.

If it was a completely closed case, I guarantee you would see a news segment of them outside the courtroom with a TV news personality saying something starting with "Behind these doors a case is being decided..." (something I've seen on 60 minutes a fair few times) and this would not be expressing a door based bias in culture.

Offline meikle

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2013, 07:32:39 PM »
Basically what you are saying proves my point.  Students at a school removed from Steubenville have gone proactive to help girls learn how to protect themselves and each other and are using tools like the CNN report in the initial post to highlight what the two rapists threw away by doing what they did and why it was wrong.  This is a decision of the students.  They see a need for education of both the young men and young women.  As one of the class officers put it:  "If you don't want to get hit by a bus, don't stand in front of one."
So, not all boys are rapists, but going out to parties and being reckless around boys is equatable to standing in front of a bus... Ho hum.  I don't think you can have it both ways; teaching girls that they need to be afraid of being inebriated around boys is going to teach them that boys aren't something to be afraid of?

Quote
listen to hate-filled words of retribution, murder, incest and anal rape for the two boys who are guilty.
Who is doing this? o_o  People are angry -- and rightly so -- but I don't think I've seen anyone (except Aiden, in this thread) advocate for repaying rape with rape.  Talk about perpetuating the problem!

Quote
Evidently not.  You quoted my remark about a totally different school implying that the girls I'm talking about should be afraid because all the boys in their school are rapists and all of their parents participated in the coverup.  I'm not grasping your logic here.
I'm not grasping yours, either.  "This school is teaching young women that they need to protect themselves from boys, and that shows that not all boys are dangerous."  Let's start teaching boys that committing rape is not only wrong but also a terrible idea, and stop showing rapists sympathy when they get punished for it!  Let's stop putting the onus on young women not to go out to parties and get drunk the way their male peers can because their sex makes them more likely to be victims, and start dismantling those efforts in place to protect young men when they commit sex crimes!

Quote
However I will point out the real reason (in my opinion obviously) why the story focuses on the rapists. They're not allowed to show the face of the victim and want to make a news segment interesting in a visual medium. It's pure journalism/video production and says nothing about their editorial opinion.
Doesn't really make sense when the images on the screen are the talking heads of the journalists.  Also doesn't really make sense when the criticism isn't, "They only talk about the rapists," but instead is, "They keep talking about how sad it is that these rapists are going to go to jail for raping somebody."
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 07:35:00 PM by meikle »

Offline Caela

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 07:36:33 PM »
There is a lot of talk about that and a lot of talk about what not to do on both sides of the coin.  Some of the senior girls have started a group to counsel the younger girls about parties, drinking and behavior as they get exposed to these facts of life.  It's a kind of "Party safe - not sorry" movement.  I hope they can keep it alive.

Beguile's, I quoted your original post only because I can see where the confusion came from. The thread itself is about the Stuebenville case and here you mention a group starting a sort of "Party counseling" for younger girls. You don't actually mention that this is at another school, so it does sound like you are talking about a group at Stuebenville where the girl's fellow students are rapists and where the adults defended those who committed a violent act to protect their precious football players.

Personally, I think you and meikle both make points, but I think you're also both coming at it from different angles and sort of frustrating each other.

Just my 0.02$ worth. YMMV

Offline Caela

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 07:41:10 PM »
Oh and a side note...I actually think a sort of party tutorial from older students to younger ones isn't a bad idea. Even if you take out the aspect of concern about being raped (I was certainly never worried about when I partied as a teenager, something like that wouldn't have even entered the minds of the guys I was friends with) a lot of other really stupid behaviours occur when you mix teens and alcohol. Having the older students teach the younger ones how to avoid some of that stupidity is a good thing in my book.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2013, 07:45:14 PM »
Beguile's, I quoted your original post only because I can see where the confusion came from. The thread itself is about the Stuebenville case and here you mention a group starting a sort of "Party counseling" for younger girls. You don't actually mention that this is at another school, so it does sound like you are talking about a group at Stuebenville where the girl's fellow students are rapists and where the adults defended those who committed a violent act to protect their precious football players.

Personally, I think you and meikle both make points, but I think you're also both coming at it from different angles and sort of frustrating each other.

Just my 0.02$ worth. YMMV
Wrong quote.  Following is the original post about the school I'm talking about with several others following it.  Taking things out of context does cause confusion which is why we recommend reading the entire thread before commenting to avoid that sort of thing.

What's interesting about this topic is that the CNN report is resonating much better with the students at the high school and middle school my nephews attend than any strident ranting about the horrors of acts.  The girl is lost in the shuffle of those who sputter and swear while she is a more central character in the discussion when the topic is approached as the CNN reporter approached it.  Most of the kids are talking about what the boys threw away by making the choices they did and how they would feel knowing this would be following them the rest of their lives.

Since teens are the target audience I think the method of getting through to them is more important than anything else.  When a report can be used as an object lesson and people who need to get the message pay attention to it sites like Gawker come across as self-serving attention whores.

Offline Caela

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2013, 07:50:59 PM »
Wrong quote.  Following is the original post about the school I'm talking about with several others following it.  Taking things out of context does cause confusion which is why we recommend reading the entire thread before commenting to avoid that sort of thing.

Actually, I quoted exactly what I meant to after I had read the entire thread. I shouldn't have labeled it as the original post true, but I also labeled it as the source of confusion. There was nothing in the post I quoted, to link it to the post where you mentioned your nephew's school which is why it was confusing as to which school you were speaking of.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2013, 11:36:52 PM »
EDIT: It has come to light that I've been letting my own experiences taint my judgement badly. I should not have spoken here. I am deeply sorry for any and all offense I may have caused.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:45:07 PM by Ephiral »

Offline meikle

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2013, 11:40:58 PM »
Perhaps the idea is not that all boys are rapists, but that rapists don't wear signs to distinguish themselves from the (majority) non-rapists, and thus caution is advisable?
How about just teaching boys not to rape drunk girls?  I mean, the 'standing in front of a bus' analogy doesn't quite hold up to "not all boys are dangerous."  If you think getting drunk at a party can be likened to standing in front of a bus, it probably reflects a certain idea about how you expect people to behave.  I know it wasn't your analogy, but it sure is a strong one.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 11:42:29 PM by meikle »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2013, 11:43:42 PM »
EDIT: It has come to light that I've been letting my own experiences taint my judgement badly. I should not have spoken here. I am deeply sorry for any and all offense I may have caused.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:45:18 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Caehlim

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2013, 06:59:16 AM »
Doesn't really make sense when the images on the screen are the talking heads of the journalists.  Also doesn't really make sense when the criticism isn't, "They only talk about the rapists," but instead is, "They keep talking about how sad it is that these rapists are going to go to jail for raping somebody."

I was talking about this, from the original article.

Quote from: Gawker
Since the identity of the victim is protected, and the rapists obliged the camera crews by memorably breaking down and crying in court, they found an angle to match: extremely gifted young men were brought tragically low by... mumblemumblesomething.

Edit: Besides it is sad that these rapists are going to jail for raping somebody. Just because someone does something horrible doesn't mean that they lack human emotions or that we should not feel empathy for them.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 07:04:41 AM by Caehlim »

Offline meikle

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2013, 12:02:42 PM »
Edit: Besides it is sad that these rapists are going to jail for raping somebody. Just because someone does something horrible doesn't mean that they lack human emotions or that we should not feel empathy for them.
This is like if the news coverage of Columbine had been slanted so that it was about how tragic it was that Harris and Klebold were forced to shoot themselves to avoid the evil cops who were trying to punish them.  They were just boys being boys, after all, and if the other students hadn't so recklessly bullied them, we wouldn't have lost two precious teenage boys.  We don't tend to get that tone for most other crimes, though (save for crimes whose criminal status are widely considered unjust...)

No, it is not sad that rapists are being punished for raping somebody.  What's sad is that they got such light sentences; what is sad is that through all of this, they still don't understand that what they did wrong is stripping a girl naked, dragging her around with them while they partied all night, trying to force her unconscious body to commit sex acts on them, and shoving things into her unconscious body, but rather believe that their mistake was that they took pictures and got caught, that's sad.

I can't feel empathy for people who so clearly do not feel empathy for others.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 12:07:24 PM by meikle »

Offline RhapsodyTopic starter

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2013, 07:26:05 PM »
The mindset goes well beyond Steubenville, which this blog post covers fairly well: So You're Tired of Hearing About Rape Culture. Steubenville is just the latest in an appalling long line of travesties.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2013, 09:06:54 PM »
Yeah, I think that we could stand to hear a lot more about rape culture. 'Cause the disturbing part of all this is that those boys and those coaches and really an uncomfortably large part of that entire community really didn't think they were doing anything wrong. Which just shows our society's abject failure at moral education.

Of course, when I see the howls for vengeance and the hope that these boys get abused in prison I know the culture that produces them and people like them is still as strong as ever. Turning real people into fetishes for violent power fantasies is an ugly ancient impulse. It creates a lot more problems than it solves (like oh, for instance, rape).

Offline SinXAzgard21