CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists

[Rhapsody]

However I will point out the real reason (in my opinion obviously) why the story focuses on the rapists. They're not allowed to show the face of the victim and want to make a news segment interesting in a visual medium. It's pure journalism/video production and says nothing about their editorial opinion.

And yet, Fox went ahead and identified her on national television, against all tradition and custom. A 16-year-old minor rape victim. How morally journalistic of them.

Oh no, wait. It wasn't them who said it. They just forgot to edit it from the oops-I-got-caught apology from the vile little monster that raped her. Their bad.

[Shjade]

How about just teaching boys not to rape drunk girls?

I'm pretty sure we teach boys not to murder people, too. It still happens.

You can't teach this out of people. You can try to reduce the odds of it happening, but it's not like you can educate it away. Thus, caution is prudent for potential victims, not because it will be their fault if they're victimized, but to lower their chances of being so.

To put it another way: what exactly is the downside of showing people how to reduce their likelihood of being raped?

[Caehlim]

And yet, Fox went ahead and identified her on national television, against all tradition and custom. A 16-year-old minor rape victim. How morally journalistic of them.

Not very morally journalistic at all. That's a violation of that young girl's privacy that will ultimately result in it being more difficult for her to get the kind of counselling and recovery time that I suspect she would very much need. There is no need for her identity to be published and anyone with an ounce of integrity should have kept that edited out of the story.

[Shjade]

According to this article CNN and MSNBC aired the name before Fox did.

[meikle]

You can't teach this out of people. You can try to reduce the odds of it happening, but it's not like you can educate it away. Thus, caution is prudent for potential victims, not because it will be their fault if they're victimized, but to lower their chances of being so.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/01/edmonton-sexual-assault-awareness-campaign-dont-be-that-guy_n_2224228.html

The campaign has been so popular, many other cities in Canada and around the world inquiring about the posters and using them in bar and club bathrooms, transit stations and campus facilities. According to the Globe and Mail the number of reported sexual assaults fell by 10 per cent last year in Vancouver, after the ads were featured around the city. It was the first time in several years that there was a drop in sexual assault activity.

Sorry, it looks like you're wrong, and education targeting men can significantly reduce sex crime -- and this "education" is nothing more involved than putting posters up in bathrooms that say, "Don't rape people drunk people," more or less.

http://www.savedmonton.com/about-our-campaigns.html

[Shjade]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/12/01/edmonton-sexual-assault-awareness-campaign-dont-be-that-guy_n_2224228.html
Sorry, it looks like you're wrong, and education targeting men can significantly reduce sex crime -- and this "education" is nothing more involved than putting posters up in bathrooms that say, "Don't rape people drunk people," more or less.

You can try to reduce the odds of it happening, but it's not like you can educate it away.

Sorry, it looks like you can't read. A "drop in sexual assault activity" is not "zero sexual assault activity."

[meikle]

Seriously? 

You can't teach this out of people.

not like you can educate it away.

So what, your proposal is to keep targeting women as if it's their responsibility not to be targeted by a criminal, instead of targeting potential rapists, which has a large, significant success rate?  This isn't "trying to reduce the odds of it happening," this is reducing the odds of it happening.

[Shjade]

Point the first: I have yet to see you answer my question re: what is the downside to teaching people what is essentially summarized as "rape prevention tips."

Point the second: I pretty specifically use the term "people" in my post, not "women." Please don't attribute your gender-targeting onto my statements.

Point the third: I don't recall saying education is a bad idea. I am, however, suggesting that only teaching potential perpetrators how not to rape is inferior to also teaching potential victims how not to get raped (or at least, as previously stated, try to lower the odds of it). This isn't because it's the victim's responsibility to not get raped, but because it's simply a good idea to exercise caution in high-risk environments, much the way you're advised to be aware of your valuables in areas known for pickpocketing, or lock your doors when you go to sleep or leave the house in the hopes of preventing a robbery. Precautions, to the extent they can be managed, are not a bad thing.

Point the fourth: why would you argue with my statement that you can reduce the odds of it happening by stating that this reduces the odds of it happening? That's...what I said? I am aware? At what point did reduction become equal to complete extinction?

[Beguile's Mistress]

~ Do you ever take the long way around rather than driving or walking through a bad area at night?
~ Do you wait for the outside security door of your dorm or apartment to engage before heading into the lobby?
~ Do you negotiate designated driver status when a group of you go clubbing?
~ Do you sit at the curb and wait until the person you drive home is safely inside?
~ Do you look through the peep hole before opening your door when you aren't expecting company?
~ Do you carry your credit card/money/wallet in an inside pocket when shopping at the mall?
~ Do you park close to the building and/or under a light when you know you'll be walking through a lonely parking lot at night or ask security to escort you to your car?
~ Do you shred mail and documents you toss, keep your receipts separate from your purchases and lock your car door when you leave your vehicle?
~ Do you do any of those dozens of things we are told to do to keep our persons, our valuables and our identies safe?

You're smart if you do and putting yourself in harms way if you don't. 

Why not teach young people to behave responsibly when they are partying?  The young men and women who are perpetrators of rape need to be educated but education for potential targets should be done as well to keep them out of danger.

[Kythia]

~ Do you ever take the long way around rather than driving or walking through a bad area at night?
~ Do you wait for the outside security door of your dorm or apartment to engage before heading into the lobby?
~ Do you negotiate designated driver status when a group of you go clubbing?
~ Do you sit at the curb and wait until the person you drive home is safely inside?
~ Do you look through the peep hole before opening your door when you aren't expecting company?
~ Do you carry your credit card/money/wallet in an inside pocket when shopping at the mall?
~ Do you park close to the building and/or under a light when you know you'll be walking through a lonely parking lot at night or ask security to escort you to your car?
~ Do you shred mail and documents you toss, keep your receipts separate from your purchases and lock your car door when you leave your vehicle?
~ Do you do any of those dozens of things we are told to do to keep our persons, our valuables and our identies safe?

You're smart if you do and putting yourself in harms way if you don't. 

Why not teach young people to behave responsibly when they are partying?  The young men and women who are perpetrators of rape need to be educated but education for potential targets should be done as well to keep them out of danger.

I'm gonna devote my life to petitioning Vekseid for a like button purely so I can Like your post.  Said it perfectly, IMHO

[Shjade]

Thank you for extrapolating further, Beguile's.

[meikle]

Point the first: I have yet to see you answer my question re: what is the downside to teaching people what is essentially summarized as "rape prevention tips."

The downside is that these "rape prevention tips" are inevitably, "Don't do the things that your male peers can do with impunity."  It is not a woman's responsibility not to be raped.  The problem is not with something that women are doing, the problem is with something that rapists are doing.

Point the second: I pretty specifically use the term "people" in my post, not "women." Please don't attribute your gender-targeting onto my statements.

So long as the significant majority of rapists continue to be men, to the tune of 99% in the United states, and the majority of victims continue to be women, to the tune of 91% in the United States, I'm not going to pretend that this is a gender-neutral issue.

Precautions, to the extent they can be managed, are not a bad thing.

Precautions, when they force half of the population to live their entire lives as if they are at constant threat of being victimized by the other half, are absolutely a bad thing and we should be doing everything in our power to make those precautions unnecessary.  Constantly qualifying your statements with, "It's not the victim's fault," and following it up with, "But she should have..." is ridiculous.  If you want to stop rape from happening, stop rapists from trying to rape people.

Point the fourth: why would you argue with my statement that you can reduce the odds of it happening by stating that this reduces the odds of it happening? That's...what I said? I am aware? At what point did reduction become equal to complete extinction?

Because you didn't say, "You can reduce the odds of it happening," so I guess you can't read either?

[meikle]

Why not teach young people to behave responsibly when they are partying?  The young men and women who are perpetrators of rape need to be educated but education for potential targets should be done as well to keep them out of danger.

Do you notice how everything on your list is gender neutral, while only women have to worry about "how not to get raped" advice?  How do you not see this as a problem?

[Kythia]

Yes, but if, God forbid, I were raped because I didn't take basic common sense precautions my thought wouldn't be "Well, at least I struck a blow for gender equality". 

[meikle]

Yes, but if, God forbid, I were raped because I didn't take basic common sense precautions my thought wouldn't be "Well, at least I struck a blow for gender equality".

The issue comes when people take the stance that educating potential rapists is ineffective and place the burden on the victim to protect herself.  It is significantly more problematic with sex crimes because our current approach gives us this:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/23-people-who-think-the-steubenville-rape-victim-is-to-blame

This is why education must be directed at those who are potential aggressors, not reserved for potential victims.  Our situation, where people rise up in defense of sex criminals and send death threats to women who dare to report rapists, is what young people need to be educated about.

[Beguile's Mistress]

The issue comes when people take the stance that educating potential rapists is ineffective and place the burden on the victim to protect herself.  It is significantly more problematic with sex crimes because our current approach gives us this:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/23-people-who-think-the-steubenville-rape-victim-is-to-blame

This is why education must be directed at those who are potential aggressors, not reserved for potential victims.  Our situation, where people rise up in defense of sex criminals and send death threats to women who dare to report rapists, is what young women need to be educated about.

If you'll notice I support education for both the young men and women who are potential perpetrators and the young men and women who are potential targets.

[Kythia]

But these things aren't exclusive.  This isn't an either/or situation.  There are tips that can prevent rapes from happening.  Refusing to use them because they shouldn't be necessary is just cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Sure, rapes are comitted by rapists.  But they are comitted by rapists with the opportunity to do so. 

Sure, educate males.  It does good, as your source above states.  But don't criticise people wanting to stay safe because they shouldn't have to stay safe.

[Maiz]

If you'll notice I support education for both the young men and women who are potential perpetrators and the young men and women who are potential targets.

When 91% of victims are women and 99% of perpetrators are men, I think maybe there should be a consideration of how sexism/misogyny is at play and how rape/sexual assault is used as a tool of sexual terrorism.

Sure, rapes are comitted by rapists.  But they are comitted by rapists with the opportunity to do so. 

Wow. So women give men the opportunity to give rape by not taking these magical precautions that just work so well. Right.

[Shjade]

Because you didn't say, "You can reduce the odds of it happening," so I guess you can't read either?

Wow. Okay, when I said you couldn't read before I was just being snippy and returning your own phrasing back to you, but now you've actually confirmed it since I just quoted myself saying that to you three posts ago. In bold. I'll try it again:

You can try to reduce the odds of it happening

"Try" is there because there's no guarantee involved. It will dissuade some; others won't get the message, or just won't care. You have no way of knowing which type you're preaching to at any given moment, so you can only try and hope for the best.

Your "male peers" can't get blackout drunk with impunity either. Their risk of being raped is infinitesimally lower, but they still run the same risks for being financially exploited (robbed, conned, whatever), getting into accidents, etc., probably lower risk of abduction, higher risk of getting into stupid life-threatening fights they wouldn't have if sober, and so on. Believe it or not, much of the advice on how to not get raped at a party could also be given under the broader heading "How to party safely," as rape is not the only potential hazard of poor decision-making in those circumstances.

Should we be doing everything we can to make precautions unnecessary? Sure.

Is it realistic to expect them to become unnecessary anytime soon? No.

Is insisting that talking about those precautions demeans or insults women and as a result they shouldn't be given any attention irrational to the point of being beyond my comprehension? Yes. See BeMi's most recent post for details.

See, until we get psychic and/or time manipulative powers to foresee rape events and intervene before they can happen, we're not going to be able to prevent every possible rape any more than we can stop murderers before they murder people, burglars before they burgle homes, carjackers before they masturbate cars, or any number of other sadly too-common crimes that occur on a much too regular basis. In the meantime, I don't see how it helps anyone to get upset about taking precautions, regardless of whether or not they're "fair." You don't invest in home security because you want to; you do it so you don't lose all your shit to bad people who know full well that robbing you will have a negative impact on your life and your self-image and for whom no amount of education on the subject will leave a mark on their behavioral patterns.

[Maiz]

I think something that you are not realizing is that rapists specifically target women to get them drunk. They pressure women to drink, they slip things in their drinks, they make their drinks too strong, etc, etc. You ignore the fact that it's not strangers committing these crimes, it's people the victims know and trust. Why should i or any other woman have to worry about having male relatives? male teachers? male coaches or pastors or friends?

http://upsettingrapeculture.com/rape_myths.html
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html
http://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts

[Shjade]

Wow. So women give men the opportunity to give rape by not taking these magical precautions that just work so well. Right.

That's not what she said.

Why are people getting offended by the idea of personal awareness being a thing when it comes to rape when it's already a thing for, you know, every other crime in existence?

Is it your fault when you're conned out of your life savings by fraudulent Nigerian royalty emails? No, it's their fault for scamming you, but there are precautions you could take to avoid that kind of thing and lower the chances of being victim to it again in future.

Victims don't go out and proactively give rapists opportunities to rape them. We just sometimes don't consider how our actions leave us open to unwanted interactions. Look at BeMi's little list of safety ideas a few posts above us: Driving or walking through a bad area at night is a good one. If you do that, are you looking for trouble? Probably not unless you're suicidal. You were probably just taking the shortest route home, or you didn't know the area was that dangerous, or whatever. It still makes you a target of opportunity, unfortunately. A target you would not have been had you been made aware of the danger beforehand and taken a different route as a result.

[Beguile's Mistress]

When 91% of victims are women and 99% of perpetrators are men, I think maybe there should be a consideration of how sexism/misogyny is at play and how rape/sexual assault is used as a tool of sexual terrorism.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to someone who was raped whether it's a female or a male.  Do you tell a young woman that you're sorry she was raped and you could have helped her stay safe but didn't because she is a girl and it's sexist to try and protect her? 

Wow. So women give men the opportunity to give rape by not taking these magical precautions that just work so well. Right.

Sarcasm isn't helping make a point.  They aren't magical precautions any more than using intelligence and common sense is stupid.

EDIT:  Corrected typo changing "Sarcasm is" to "Sarcasm isn't."

[Shjade]

I think something that you are not realizing is that rapists specifically target women to get them drunk. They pressure women to drink, they slip things in their drinks, they make their drinks too strong, etc, etc. You ignore the fact that it's not strangers committing these crimes, it's people the victims know and trust. Why should i or any other woman have to worry about having male relatives? male teachers? male coaches or pastors or friends?

I wouldn't say anyone's been ignoring that so much as it wasn't the topic being discussed. We've been talking about party precautions more or less exclusively (at least that was the impression I got?) which is more of a strangers/anonymous/maybe friends or acquaintances type thing, I think? Family/close relationships/etc. rape is also a big problem, but the circumstances in which those incidents arise are typically different ones.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I think something that you are not realizing is that rapists specifically target women to get them drunk. They pressure women to drink, they slip things in their drinks, they make their drinks too strong, etc, etc. You ignore the fact that it's not strangers committing these crimes, it's people the victims know and trust. Why should i or any other woman have to worry about having male relatives? male teachers? male coaches or pastors or friends?

http://upsettingrapeculture.com/rape_myths.html
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html
http://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts

You know what you shouldn't have to.  No woman should have to life a life surrounded by scum like that. 

Can I be irresponsible and pretend scum like that doesn't exist?  Should I let the young men and women I know go through life ignorant of the fact that these things can happen?  Should I cheat the young people I know of the ability to make safe choices and be aware of the dangers that could exist around them?

Should I?  HELL NO!  Would you do that to your young relatives and friends if you knew or suspected they were in harms way?  I would hope your attitude would be different with young people you know.  Why have a different attitude toward strangers?

[Kythia]

I think something that you are not realizing is that rapists specifically target women to get them drunk. They pressure women to drink, they slip things in their drinks, they make their drinks too strong, etc, etc. You ignore the fact that it's not strangers committing these crimes, it's people the victims know and trust. Why should i or any other woman have to worry about having male relatives? male teachers? male coaches or pastors or friends?

http://upsettingrapeculture.com/rape_myths.html
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html
http://well.wvu.edu/articles/rape_myths_and_facts

I don't think thats being ignored at all.  Its kinda off topic, sure, but equally what you're saying is "There are well known and documented routes that rapes happen.  But pay no attention to them.  Do not think about them at all because its unfair that you have to."

It seems a bit like a sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la" way of approaching a problem.