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Author Topic: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists  (Read 11051 times)

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Offline Caehlim

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #100 on: March 24, 2013, 10:18:46 AM »
The problem is that the corollary society has decided to tack onto that is: "no women are rapists" and "no men are ever raped". Which just speaks further to this delusional concept of rape that we as a culture have. So long as we cleave to a victim blaming, sexist, stranger-rape obsessed fairytale (e.g. the big bad man is waiting in a dark alley to take random strange women unawares on the way home as a crime of opportunity), we can't constructively address the problem. That notion is so far from what is actually happening that it results in rapists not understanding what they are doing (in some cases it results in entire communities not understanding what they are doing). That's a significant problem that will not go away without changing the popular paradigm.

Very well put, I think that cuts to the heart of the matter. As long as our conception of the problem doesn't match the reality how can we come up with good solutions?

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #101 on: March 24, 2013, 11:00:00 AM »
Please stop saying all men are rapists and all rapists are men because that is nowhere near the truth.  The only rapists I've had personal contact with were girls who knew exactly what they were doing when they did it.

The posters referred to above are telling people what rape is because someone felt kids needed to be taught the things that happen in places like Steubenville are actually rape and that while most people who are raped are women there a males who are raped as well.

Political agendas are great because they bring issues to the surface and keep them there.  They generate discussion, lead to awareness, bring about the creation of standards for behavior and laws that protect others.  Allowing our political agendas to get in the way of being safe or teaching others to be safe is wrong, short-sighted and selfish.

Some males are going to commit rape and some females are going to end up the targets of those males just as some females are going to rape someone, too.  There are males out there who will be targets as well. 

A group of parents at the coffee meeting after Mass this morning were discussing this very issue and educating their children about the right and wrong and how to protect themselves.  There are a lot of mixed messages being sent to young people these days and no one seems to care enough to pay attention to what that does to the perceptions of those kids.  They don't have the experience to handle what is thrown at them and they don't have enough impulse control to resist urges they don't understand.  One man this morning, a single father with three children, was nearly in tears talking about looking across the dinner table at his son and two daughters and having to discuss the Steubenville rapes with them and listen to his daughters ask how to stay safe. 

What do you tell a frightened teen, boy or girl, who comes to you and asks a question like that? 

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #102 on: March 24, 2013, 11:43:47 AM »
Well.

You could tell them that if they don't dress inappropriately, no one will have inappropriate thoughts about them - but we know that's not necessarily true.

You could tell them that if they party safer, they're less likely to be victimized - but we know that's not necessarily true.

You could tell them that if they are aware of their surroundings, they will be safe - but our physiology is not designed to be aware of everything all the time.

You could tell them that if they are careful who to trust, they are less likely to be victimized - but rapes and attacks are not primarily perpetrated by people we don't trust, and predators are very, very good at appearing trustworthy.

You could tell them to stay inside, lock their doors, and make sure that they don't go anywhere alone - but then you not only severely limit how they live their lives, you also set them up for having their only safe space taken from them if they are attacked in their own home.

"Don't put yourself in a compromising position. Take some personal responsibility for your safety." That is the drumbeat by which safety-minded people march. The majority of interhuman interactions have to do with putting oneself in a compromising position that depends on how the other person will react. You make a joke, and you hope they choose to laugh. You hold out your hand, and you hope they choose to take it. You offer a hug, and you hope they hug you back. Your actions are only half of the equation; the other person's choice is the other half. There is no personal responsibility on the part of a victim, because they are not responsible for how another person chooses to react to them. That goes for all situations of assault, including rape. Including robbery. Including domestic violence. The phrase "rape prevention" is a joke when it's applied to the people who are at risk for being raped. It's not the victims in charge of preventing it, regardless of where they go, how they act, what they drink, or whether they carry a weapon.

It's a scary thought and it's not one that a parent wants to share with their kids. However, there are a lot of scary things, or awkward things, or uncomfortable things, that parents don't want to share or talk about with their kids. I'm not a parent, and I can't say how to navigate them, but what I can say is that trying to tell your kids that they have control over something they don't because you don't want them to be scared seems ... cruel, to me.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #103 on: March 24, 2013, 12:22:13 PM »
Maybe this is part of the reason why so many kids don't know what rape is.  Even the targets don't recognize it when it's coming at them like a freight train.  They are shoved out the door defenseless against their own impulses and those of others because someone somewhere decided that personal responsibility doesn't enter into the equation.

We have to step up and be honest with our young people about rape and social interactions that can lead to putting you in harms way.  Why is a young person's body so unimportant that it's okay if they get raped when a few precautions might have prevented it?  Jane Doe, the girl in Steubenville who was raped, might have made different choices had she been told or told one more time about what alcohol does to a persons inhibitions.  She might have been rescued if one of the other girls at the parties had that same education. 

You know what?  I don't know any woman who is unaware of the dangers that can befall a woman in today's social climate.  We practice precautions such as drinking responsibly and dressing in a way that projects our own standards of propriety.  We ask for escorts to our cars at night, never let one of us go out at night alone and never deliberately invite the wrong kind of attention.  We also know that no matter what we do a time might come when something bad could happen but we still do all we can to keep that time at bay and minimize the danger. 

No one is going to tell me I can't do that for myself.  No one is going to tell me it's wrong to do that for myself.  No one - ever - in any way is going to get away with telling me that respecting myself and looking out for myself and protecting myself is something I don't have to do.  I was nearly beaten to death because I didn't avoid the person who attacked me and I and a friend lost our virginity at the hands of a group of girls when we were teens because we didn't know enough to avoid them. 

I wish to God I had been given the tools to keep those things from happening because my life would be a million times better than it is right now.

We can tell kids that all those things people say aren't necessary true and we should because if one young person listens and does even one of those things and ends up avoiding danger it was worth it.  You can't prevent every bad thing that could happen but damn it I'm going to do all in my power to try because I care about me.  I'm important and I deserve it. 

And in my opinion not one single other person is any less deserving of that protection in the same way that no one is deserving of being raped.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #104 on: March 24, 2013, 12:44:41 PM »
I'm sorry it's so difficult for you. I have avoided discussing my personal situation and similarly I'm going to avoid discussing yours.

Maybe this is part of the reason why so many kids don't know what rape is.  Even the targets don't recognize it when it's coming at them like a freight train.  They are shoved out the door defenseless against their own impulses and those of others because someone somewhere decided that personal responsibility doesn't enter into the equation.

We can educate young people on what rape is without adding the baggage of "and if you follow these rituals, you too can avoid being attacked". We can do that, and we should do that.

The victim is not personally responsible for the crime. Personal responsibility doesn't enter into it. You can be the most personally responsible person in the world and still get raped. (Or robbed, or murdered...)

We have to step up and be honest with our young people about rape and social interactions that can lead to putting you in harms way.  Why is a young person's body so unimportant that it's okay if they get raped when a few precautions might have prevented it?  Jane Doe, the girl in Steubenville who was raped, might have made different choices had she been told or told one more time about what alcohol does to a persons inhibitions.  She might have been rescued if one of the other girls at the parties had that same education. 

Social interactions can put you in harm's way if you are interacting socially with a person who wants to or is planning to do you harm. Why is an adult's need to give pat answers so important that they would provide misinformation to potential victims? Even if it's easier in the short term to give a set of instructions and assure your kid that they will be safe, isn't that a disservice? Is a false sense of security really worth the false peace of mind?

Jane Doe's choices had nothing to do with the fact that her attackers decided to sexually assault her because they could. Because they thought she was an easy target (which, given that those two boys ended up receiving convictions for their actions, something that is rare amongst reported rapes, shows that they were wrong about that - she was very much not an 'easy target', and she fought back, and fucking good for her).

Also, these two quotes:
She might have been rescued if one of the other girls at the parties had that same education.
 
You know what?  I don't know any woman who is unaware of the dangers that can befall a woman in today's social climate.

... which one is it? And do we know that others present weren't educated? It's doubtful, given the pervasiveness of "watch out, you could get raped if you do that!" in our current culture.


You know what?  I don't know any woman who is unaware of the dangers that can befall a woman in today's social climate.  We practice precautions such as drinking responsibly and dressing in a way that projects our own standards of propriety.  We ask for escorts to our cars at night, never let one of us go out at night alone and never deliberately invite the wrong kind of attention.  We also know that no matter what we do a time might come when something bad could happen but we still do all we can to keep that time at bay and minimize the danger. 

Rapists and other attackers don't give a damn about a woman's standards of propriety, or whether she has actually invited their attention. The whole point is to do something uninvited to another person for personal gain. Whether that personal gain is money, control, a rush, whatever - it's not about the woman. We do all we can to give ourselves the illusion of minimizing the danger because it is human nature. Statistically, the danger is not actually minimized. It's a disservice to potential victims to pretend that it is.

No one is going to tell me I can't do that for myself.  No one is going to tell me it's wrong to do that for myself.  No one - ever - in any way is going to get away with telling me that respecting myself and looking out for myself and protecting myself is something I don't have to do.  I was nearly beaten to death because I didn't avoid the person who attacked me and I and a friend lost our virginity at the hands of a group of girls when we were teens because we didn't know enough to avoid them. 

I wish to God I had been given the tools to keep those things from happening because my life would be a million times better than it is right now.

I understand where you're coming from.

We can tell kids that all those things people say aren't necessary true and we should because if one young person listens and does even one of those things and ends up avoiding danger it was worth it.  You can't prevent every bad thing that could happen but damn it I'm going to do all in my power to try because I care about me.  I'm important and I deserve it. 

And in my opinion not one single other person is any less deserving of that protection in the same way that no one is deserving of being raped.

Being honest about placing the responsibility for attacks on the attacker's shoulders is not failing to protect possible victims. A more accurate description of the precautions taken by possible victims would be something along the lines of, "You can do this if it makes you feel safe, but be aware that it does not actually make you safe". Tackling rape prevention is messy. It's all over the place. So it's much easier to try to categorize rapists as strangers who jump out of the alleyway, and categorize the victims of rapes as someone who didn't protect themselves enough. It's neater, and it gives a sense of security. "Okay, if I lock my doors, I won't get burglarized." "Okay, if I make sure not to drink too much, I won't get raped." It's comforting, but it's not true. Normally, I wouldn't personally mind leaving a comforting self-deception in place. Hey, no skin off my nose, right? But when those comforting 'facts' are perpetuated to such an extent that it is normal for rape victims to go through periods of "what did I do wrong? What step did I miss? Where did I open myself up? What safety precaution did I not do?" - that? That is wrong.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2013, 01:27:26 PM »
Get real about this.  The responsibility for the attack lies with the perpetrator not the target and the fault lies with the perpetrator, the people who failed to educate them and anyone who saw what was happening and didn't help or encouraged the violation.  A major investigation is on the books in Steubenville and even though two rapists have been convicted there are others being looked at for culpability.  I've never said and will never say a target is responsible for the choices a rapist makes.  Never.  Ever.  Said it.  Believed it.  Or even think it.

My opinion is that there are things that can be done to minimize the danger and I'll do them and encourage everyone to do them.  Others think that doing nothing is okay because you can't make it go away entirely so why bother.  Still others fall somewhere in between. 

When my opinion is asked for I'll give it.  Your safety is more important than anything else and anyone who cares a damn about you will tell you that.


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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2013, 03:10:45 PM »
 Maybe I'm just a bit more traditional or something,  but I  was always taught that the best way to be safe was to avoid high risk behaviors.  Of course  there are no guarantees of safety in life,  but at least the chance of bad things happening is less.   Do I  have the"right"  to walk down midtown Bronx  at 3am,  or to get passed out drunk?  Absolutely.   Do I  choose to engage in such behaviors? I  choose not to since my safety is a priority.

On the same token,  do women have a right to get passed  out drunk or party in urban bars till 4am  wearing heels and tiny skirts?   Absolutely.   Is  it a  high risk behavior?   Yes it is,  since it  makes a woman vulnerable to rapists, just like walking down the street at night makes me vulnerable to murderers. This isn't about blaming anyone but simply communicating to women that if their safety is a priority, they should avoid high risk activities.

Offline Driskoll

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2013, 03:54:32 PM »
We do all we can to give ourselves the illusion of minimizing the danger because it is human nature. Statistically, the danger is not actually minimized. It's a disservice to potential victims to pretend that it is.

After reading this I tried to track down some research that supported it. I haven't been able to find anything yet. If you wouldn't mind providing a link to something that does support this statement Trieste, I'd very much appreciate it.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2013, 04:44:48 PM »
Rape is not some kind of black magic. It doesn't mystically change the rules of a situation and trying to do so does not hold up to scrutiny. There are things that can be done to minimize the risk of rape, just as there are things that can be done to minimize your risk of any crime/disease/miscellaneous ill. It's a good idea to do these things, and whether or not you do them does not somehow mean that those ills are your fault.

That said, 'rape prevention' has loooooong been used as a code word for 'heavy handed puritanical modesty enforcement' (just look at ValthazarElite's disgusting comment about heels and skirts). So it's kind of a soiled term. Additionally there are a ton of just flat out myths and misinformation floating around out there (again, many of them associated with modesty under the misapprehension that rape is a sexually motivated crime). But it's just as fucked up to pretend that there is nothing you can do as it is to pretend that you can assure your safety. And the mindset of "Oh, you can't be 100% safe, so why bother trying?" is really dumb (and disturbingly reminiscent of attitudes towards STD prevention in some circles).

That kind of hysteria gets in the way of giving actual useful advice (hey, maybe don't get wasted without someone watching your back) and debunking myths (like the bullshit that your chances of being raped have anything to do with how you dress). We need to stop jumping between black & white talking points and find a way to initiate education based programs for rape prevention based on actual epidemiological data and not urban legends/whatever makes us feel good.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2013, 05:07:26 PM »
Google "statistics on rape prevention" and start reading.

If you are predisposed against the need for education of both male and female young people you'll come away with arguments you believe will support to decision.

However, there are many organizations that support rape prevention education in many forms and in many places including college campuses.

One thing that I picked up that has been escaping me in this thread is that education to recognize what rape is and encouragement to report it is one part of prevention of future rapes.  We can not only minimize our own risk but the risk others face as well.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2013, 05:19:37 PM »
After reading this I tried to track down some research that supported it. I haven't been able to find anything yet. If you wouldn't mind providing a link to something that does support this statement Trieste, I'd very much appreciate it.

The FBI publishes a good amount of information about violent crime rates amongst the population. Because the rates are calculated per 100,000 people, it's a good measurement of crime rates that controls for increase in crime rates due to population increases. They break the crimes down by type, so there are statistics for things like murder/attempted murder/assault/forcible rape/etc. The overall rate of violent crime per 100,000 people is falling, and in the cases of things like robbery and assault you can see how the percentages keep up with the overall declining rate of violent crime over the past 5, 10, 15 years. The rate of reported rapes has gone down alongside the crime rate in general, but it is falling more slowly. So those are just the numbers. For extra fun, you can throw into the mix that 1. rapes are thought to be underreported, and 2. these tables rely on self-reporting from law enforcement agencies so if a man was raped and then sent out of the precinct by a disbelieving officer without filing a report (just as an example) then something like that won't be included in these statistics. Furthermore, the population is estimated based on information from the Census Bureau, so all of the uncertainty of the Census Bureau with regard to population size is imported into the FBI tables. (Data.)

As far as education goes, it's difficult to pinpoint who got what education since it's often state-controlled, or school-controlled, or people take 'protect yourself' self-defense classes at community centers, etc. But the CDC's rape prevention grant/education program appears to have gotten off the ground circa 2004. In this handy little fact sheet about the Rape Prevention and Education Program (RPE), they estimate that their message reached something like 15 million Americans through schools and outreach and whatnot in 2008-2009. According to the FBI, there was indeed a drop of about 3 points between 2008 and 2011.

Which is awesome, right? Wellll, not if you look at the implementation.

Texas opened up a couple crisis centers. New Jersey's doing a study. Minnesota had a glorified PTA meeting. Iowa has a couple teams plugging away at it. New York - specifically NYC, is approaching it via the social norms route, which is interesting. And the most involved state, California, makes no mention of educating girls on how not to get raped; California appears to be approaching its young men and encouraging them not to rape.

For kicks, looking at the previous four-year rates on the FBI table, we find that '04-'07 is -1.8, and '00-'03 is +0.4. Did rape victims suddenly decide to start wearing burquas and carrying mace everywhere in 2008? Did college kids suddenly stop partying so much in 2008? Maybe women everywhere woke up and started locking their doors.

I am personally of the belief that it points to a relationship between education that focuses on the actual potential criminal rather than the potential victim.

Rape is not some kind of black magic. It doesn't mystically change the rules of a situation and trying to do so does not hold up to scrutiny. There are things that can be done to minimize the risk of rape, just as there are things that can be done to minimize your risk of any crime/disease/miscellaneous ill. It's a good idea to do these things, and whether or not you do them does not somehow mean that those ills are your fault.

That said, 'rape prevention' has loooooong been used as a code word for 'heavy handed puritanical modesty enforcement' (just look at ValthazarElite's disgusting comment about heels and skirts). So it's kind of a soiled term. Additionally there are a ton of just flat out myths and misinformation floating around out there (again, many of them associated with modesty under the misapprehension that rape is a sexually motivated crime). But it's just as fucked up to pretend that there is nothing you can do as it is to pretend that you can assure your safety. And the mindset of "Oh, you can't be 100% safe, so why bother trying?" is really dumb (and disturbingly reminiscent of attitudes towards STD prevention in some circles).

That kind of hysteria gets in the way of giving actual useful advice (hey, maybe don't get wasted without someone watching your back) and debunking myths (like the bullshit that your chances of being raped have anything to do with how you dress). We need to stop jumping between black & white talking points and find a way to initiate education based programs for rape prevention based on actual epidemiological data and not urban legends/whatever makes us feel good.

It should probably be noted just to make sure no weird mix-ups happen that I am not advocating the "whatever why bother" approach - I'm not saying that. It's the laughable idea that a victim has any control over his attacker's actions, and that he can prevent them by not going to a certain part of town, staying home, staying quiet, being demure, don't party too much and don't you dare get drunk . . .

I think there might be a dead horse suffering from excess beatings around here somewhere.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2013, 05:31:16 PM »
Spoilered for Space
The FBI publishes a good amount of information about violent crime rates amongst the population. Because the rates are calculated per 100,000 people, it's a good measurement of crime rates that controls for increase in crime rates due to population increases. They break the crimes down by type, so there are statistics for things like murder/attempted murder/assault/forcible rape/etc. The overall rate of violent crime per 100,000 people is falling, and in the cases of things like robbery and assault you can see how the percentages keep up with the overall declining rate of violent crime over the past 5, 10, 15 years. The rate of reported rapes has gone down alongside the crime rate in general, but it is falling more slowly. So those are just the numbers. For extra fun, you can throw into the mix that 1. rapes are thought to be underreported, and 2. these tables rely on self-reporting from law enforcement agencies so if a man was raped and then sent out of the precinct by a disbelieving officer without filing a report (just as an example) then something like that won't be included in these statistics. Furthermore, the population is estimated based on information from the Census Bureau, so all of the uncertainty of the Census Bureau with regard to population size is imported into the FBI tables. (Data.)

As far as education goes, it's difficult to pinpoint who got what education since it's often state-controlled, or school-controlled, or people take 'protect yourself' self-defense classes at community centers, etc. But the CDC's rape prevention grant/education program appears to have gotten off the ground circa 2004. In this handy little fact sheet about the Rape Prevention and Education Program (RPE), they estimate that their message reached something like 15 million Americans through schools and outreach and whatnot in 2008-2009. According to the FBI, there was indeed a drop of about 3 points between 2008 and 2011.

Which is awesome, right? Wellll, not if you look at the implementation.

Texas opened up a couple crisis centers. New Jersey's doing a study. Minnesota had a glorified PTA meeting. Iowa has a couple teams plugging away at it. New York - specifically NYC, is approaching it via the social norms route, which is interesting. And the most involved state, California, makes no mention of educating girls on how not to get raped; California appears to be approaching its young men and encouraging them not to rape.

For kicks, looking at the previous four-year rates on the FBI table, we find that '04-'07 is -1.8, and '00-'03 is +0.4. Did rape victims suddenly decide to start wearing burquas and carrying mace everywhere in 2008? Did college kids suddenly stop partying so much in 2008? Maybe women everywhere woke up and started locking their doors.
Well, yes.  But none of that supports your assertion that:
Quote from: Trieste
Statistically, the danger is not actually minimized

Interesting as it is, it doesn't really touch on that.  Thats not an attack on you - sure, if the research isn't there or is paywalled or whatever, I get it.  It does just mean that I think the key point is:

Quote
I am personally of the belief that it points to a relationship between education that focuses on the actual potential criminal rather than the potential victim.
 
(emphasis mine)

rather than

Quote from: Trieste
Statistically, the danger is not actually minimized

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #112 on: March 24, 2013, 05:37:02 PM »
Yes, it does. That statement is in the middle of a paragraph talking about the actions of a woman/potential victim/errant llama/whatever you want to call the person who is on the receiving end.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2013, 05:55:12 PM »
That said, 'rape prevention' has loooooong been used as a code word for 'heavy handed puritanical modesty enforcement' (just look at ValthazarElite's disgusting comment about heels and skirts).

Hi DarklingAlice,

I have every intention of this being a respectful discussion.  I prefaced my statement by saying that I come from a more traditional community - and we choose to hold certain values because we tend to feel that for our way of life, it represents the best approach.  With that being said, I am not sure why you describe my beliefs as being "disgusting."  I entirely respect women who choose to enjoy partying at bars, and dressing promiscuously - but to suggest that women who voluntarily choose not to do that are victims of modesty enforcement is fundamentally incorrect.  I know many women who take pride in their modesty.  I was merely stating my opinion - and many women who grew up in traditional families will say the same thing, which is that the modern day hook-up culture puts women in a vulnerable position.  Again, I respect other perspectives, but I am merely stating my own in a respectful manner.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 06:02:15 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Driskoll

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2013, 06:06:19 PM »
Google "statistics on rape prevention" and start reading.


That's what I did.

While I found a fair amount of information basically saying that rape prevention strategies  for women may not be as effective as many may believe they are, I have yet to find anything saying there is a statistically insignificant difference in safety between women who practice them and women who don't.

Since that seemed to be the point Trieste was getting at in the section I quoted earlier, I was simply curious about why she thought that and what research she had seen.

While I wouldn't say I'm predisposed against educating young people, I do wonder how effective that education is at times. Edit: I should say that I am for education though, I just don't believe that the sort of "common sense women's safety tips" are as effective as some make them out to be. Here's a journal article that more or less goes into what I'm talking about.

I am personally of the belief that it points to a relationship between education that focuses on the actual potential criminal rather than the potential victim.

Most of what I found would certainly seem to support that view. Thank you for taking the time to put all that together.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 06:25:49 PM by Driskoll »

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2013, 06:12:17 PM »
While I found a fair amount of information basically saying that rape prevention strageties for women may not be as effective as many may believe they are, I have yet to find anything saying there is a statistically insignificant difference in safety between women who practice them and women who don't.

It would be super convenient and nice of potential rapists to get together and report times they didn't rape and what factors dissuaded them. The difficulty with crime statistics is that there is really no way of measuring crimes that didn't happen, other than trying to compare percentages from one period of time to the next. I don't know that there is a way to measure the statistics between women who practice popular rape prevention strategies and those who do not. I would be interested to see those numbers if there were.

I'm glad that what I put together was useful to you, regardless of whether you draw the same conclusions that I do.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2013, 06:31:36 PM »
It should probably be noted just to make sure no weird mix-ups happen that I am not advocating the "whatever why bother" approach - I'm not saying that. It's the laughable idea that a victim has any control over his attacker's actions, and that he can prevent them by not going to a certain part of town, staying home, staying quiet, being demure, don't party too much and don't you dare get drunk . . .

I think there might be a dead horse suffering from excess beatings around here somewhere.
Right. I get that. The thing is that (aside from a few of the more backwards 'traditional' folk who seem to think men are animals that can't resist a revealing top and it is women's job not to be temptresses) that's not what people are saying. There's a false binary here, and my issue is that such binaries stand in the way of realistic education and prevention.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #117 on: March 24, 2013, 06:45:18 PM »
The thing is that (aside from a few of the more backwards 'traditional' folk who seem to think men are animals that can't resist a revealing top and it is women's job not to be temptresses) that's not what people are saying. There's a false binary here, and my issue is that such binaries stand in the way of realistic education and prevention.

DarklingAlice,

I think you have unfortunately misunderstood my perspective on this issue.  I never asserted that "men are animals who can't resist a revealing top."  In fact, I would say the that vast majority of men in this world are good, decent human beings who care for women, and truly respect them.

Given that we live in the 21st century, the reality is that many men and women choose to have multiple partners throughout their lifetime and participate in several hook ups.  This is a voluntary choice that people make, and one that I completely respect, since people have every right to live their life how they choose to.  I may choose to live a more traditional lifestyle, but that does not mean that I look down upon others - ever.

I will even go so far as to say that today's hook-up and partying culture has many significant advantages for individuals (both men and women).  For example, it allows people to explore their sexuality in many ways, and have variety in their sexual partners.  On that same token, we can also say that a more 'traditional' lifestyle creates an atmosphere where there might be sexual boredom with one's wife or husband, or lack of sexual exploration.

However, just like any decision we make in life, today's hook-up culture also brings with it many significant problems.  For one, I believe that it conditions men to view women as sexual conquests, as opposed to life-long partners.  Again, this is purely my opinion.  I believe that one of the reasons women are so objectified in today's society is because of how easy it is for men to engage in sexual intercourse - whereas in the past, respect for a woman, and earning her trust for marriage, was the prerequisite for sexual intercourse as a cultural norm.

I do realize that many of you will disagree with my beliefs, but I simply ask that you don't inaccurately represent my views.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #118 on: March 25, 2013, 10:44:05 AM »
Yes, it does. That statement is in the middle of a paragraph talking about the actions of a woman/potential victim/errant llama/whatever you want to call the person who is on the receiving end.

Yes, thats kinda my point.  The stats don't make any mention of the actions of the victim at all.  Clearly there's something I'm missing but, well, its hard to say what it is you don't understand.  I just don't see any connection between the information you gave and:

Quote
Rapists and other attackers don't give a damn about a woman's standards of propriety, or whether she has actually invited their attention. The whole point is to do something uninvited to another person for personal gain. Whether that personal gain is money, control, a rush, whatever - it's not about the woman. We do all we can to give ourselves the illusion of minimizing the danger because it is human nature. Statistically, the danger is not actually minimized. It's a disservice to potential victims to pretend that it is.

Sorry if I'm being dense, its not deliberately so.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #119 on: March 25, 2013, 10:51:35 AM »
I realize that as a potential victim (aren't we all?), I can't cover every eventuality.  However, if I do things like never letting my drink out of my sight from the time it's poured to the time I'm done with it, I've just eliminated the chance for someone to put GHB in it.  Yes, that means I go to the bartender and get my own drinks instead of having 'someone I'm with' get a drink for me.  In a restaurant, I can probably trust the server (whose job depends on customers) not to adulterate my drink with anything more heinous than water - but at a party?  I'm watching it from bottle to bin.

Offline Sasquatch421

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #120 on: March 25, 2013, 11:03:10 AM »
It would be super convenient and nice of potential rapists to get together and report times they didn't rape and what factors dissuaded them. The difficulty with crime statistics is that there is really no way of measuring crimes that didn't happen, other than trying to compare percentages from one period of time to the next. I don't know that there is a way to measure the statistics between women who practice popular rape prevention strategies and those who do not. I would be interested to see those numbers if there were.

I'm glad that what I put together was useful to you, regardless of whether you draw the same conclusions that I do.

Another problem with crime statistics is that they probably won't be 100% accurate because of unreported crimes. Some crimes will be reported more, but in my view rape is so demeaning to the victim that how many of them will not be reported.


Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #121 on: March 27, 2013, 08:04:37 AM »
A quick bit of digging through Google has turned up some evidence to support and reinforce that programs aimed at keeping women safe from an attacker do produce results.  Research done between a control group and a group of women trained in tactics of physical and non-physical resistance/awareness did show a 4.2% decrease in the incident of rape.  “Of the 918 women in the treatment groups, 20.3% reported being sexually victimized during follow-up compared to 24.5% among the 868 women in the control groups – a reduction of four sexual assaults for every 100 women attending the program” (Hanson & Broom, 2005, p. 366).  This tended toward women taught self-defense and self-awareness, but there were other benefits to such programs.  Women reported being more self-confident, assertive and felt more in control.  There was also some preliminary data to suggest being forearmed with these classes helped women avoid PTSD from being sexually assaulted.

There was a study I found that showed some interesting results.  The study did two follow up interviews with a group participating in a risk-reduction class and a control group.  2 months out there was little reduction for women who had not been sexually assaulted in the past and little reduction for women who were severely assaulted.  The moderate group benefitted the most from the risk reduction survey and the researcher stated that this group probably experienced a reduction in re-victimization.  The six month followed about the same pattern.  Women that had not been sexually assaulted before were already at a low risk and so the numbers did not move.  Women that had been severely sexually assaulted before were at the high end of the risk scale and their numbers did not decrease significantly.  The study does conclude that aiming rape reduction programs at college level is probably not as effective as aiming them at adolescent women, since being sexually abused or assaulted once is a stronger predictor for later in life.  There was also suggestion that the materials used and the presence of compassionate facilitators that the women trusted might have a significant impact on the results.

As with many social research studies there are a great many variables to consider.  Rape is a complex crime that brings a great many social factors into play.

http://www.usca.edu/psychology/pdf/Gidycz,%20Lynn%20et%20al.pdf

http://snow.vawnet.org/Assoc_Files_VAWnet/AR_RapePrevention.pdf

Offline Shjade

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2013, 12:38:11 PM »
The most unsettling part of that study being that they could have such small control groups and still have pretty much guaranteed rapes occur to their participants. x.x

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #123 on: March 27, 2013, 12:50:34 PM »
The conservative figure is 1 in 8, Shjade. The figure is quoted as as many as 1 in 3, depending on source.

I haven't had a chance to look at the PDFs on my phone, but I'm interested to see how they controlled for the difference in reported vs. actual.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #124 on: March 27, 2013, 12:52:35 PM »
I didn't see mention of an exam to rule out falsehood.  The study is interview based if I remember correctly so they would do follow up interviews (at 2 and 6 months to be exact).  Unfortunately issuing the test in a way to rule out false reporting would mean asking someone about their rape in several possible formats.