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Author Topic: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists  (Read 11069 times)

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Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #125 on: March 27, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
Shjade,

I know exactly what you mean.  Very very chilling when i think about it.

Pumpkin Seeds,

This is NOT scientific, but this is what I was told by a bouncer when I started tending bar.  I'm not putting it in quotes because I don't remember the exact words from 20 years ago:

It's not enough to be alert and prepared, those assholes have to see that you look alert and prepared.  They look for soft easy prey.  If you look like you're ready for trouble, they'll look for a woman who isn't.  That's a cold-ass thing to say, but they really do think that way.  And yeah, you'll hear some shit about guys looking for tough chicks to teach them a lesson.  Thing is, guys who go for subduing tough chicks who know how to fight get fucked up sooner and don't last long.  That's why they stand out.

Again, not scientific at all, but it is the very well informed opinion of a man who as an experienced  bouncer had seen the seamier side of life for a long long time.

Offline Oniya

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #126 on: March 27, 2013, 01:05:27 PM »
I've given similar advice to the little Oni with regards to bullies at school (she can sometimes get wrapped up in her little inner world).  Look like you know where you're going and what you're doing.  Look alert.  Notice who is doing what, and especially if someone is watching you.  I see you.  I know you.

If it helps her dodge just one person intent on knocking her books flying, it's done some good.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #127 on: March 27, 2013, 01:08:04 PM »
Not scientific but fairly accurate to be honest.  Someone looking to take advantage of or assault another person (man or woman) is looking for an easy target.  This is why acquaintance rape is more common because the victim is on hand and the perpetrator has easy access to that individual.  No point going out looking for someone that might be a black belt in disguise when the person could go next door to the friendly neighbor and ask to be let in for whatever reason.  Stranger rape is even more about social cues and signs of weakness because there is that uncertainty.  This tends to be a lot of my gripe with “conventional” self-defense tactics.  Women are told to check under their cars, check the backseats, look behind them, walk quickly, have their keys out, etc. etc.  All of these signals make the woman look like a victim.  The trick really is to look around and be aware of the surroundings without giving the impression of being weak.

For instance the bouncer you spoke to probably does not approach someone he is going to be tossing out as if he is afraid of him.  Now that person might have a knife, a gun, could be some Special Forces guy or a mafia assassin out on the town.  Yet that bouncer is going to approach the person with confidence and assertiveness because 9/10 times that will be enough to convince even someone able to fight that this is not worth their effort. 

I do remember something in one of my gender studies courses where numbers were given regarding the tactic of looking a rapist in the eyes.  Women that confronted their rapist head on as in fought back, looked them in the eyes and did not play meek had a greater percentage of survival.  So there is truth in the weakness part.

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #128 on: March 27, 2013, 01:10:35 PM »
Oooh, good lord no, I meant the difference between rapes that happened and rapes (or assaults, if that is their language) that were reported. As in, how did they control for underreporting, or did they, how were the groups picked, etc. I am curious about their methodology. 

I am skeptical about the results of a sample of two thousand versus the national statistics but I want to clap my peepers on it first.

Shjade,

I know exactly what you mean.  Very very chilling when i think about it.

Pumpkin Seeds,

This is NOT scientific, but this is what I was told by a bouncer when I started tending bar.  I'm not putting it in quotes because I don't remember the exact words from 20 years ago:

It's not enough to be alert and prepared, those assholes have to see that you look alert and prepared.  They look for soft easy prey.  If you look like you're ready for trouble, they'll look for a woman who isn't.  That's a cold-ass thing to say, but they really do think that way.  And yeah, you'll hear some shit about guys looking for tough chicks to teach them a lesson.  Thing is, guys who go for subduing tough chicks who know how to fight get fucked up sooner and don't last long.  That's why they stand out.

Again, not scientific at all, but it is the very well informed opinion of a man who as an experienced  bouncer had seen the seamier side of life for a long long time.

I know that this is the conventional wisdom, but I question it given... I mean, there is such a high rate of assault in the armed forces and they're not the softest of targets... It is something I would take with a grain of salt.

Offline Oniya

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #129 on: March 27, 2013, 01:15:07 PM »
But who is doing the assaulting in those cases?  Most likely someone who thought the other person could be 'taken' without too much effort.  Add to that, the fact that you're expected to trust your squad with your life in a very literal sense, and that kind of 'friendly fire' gets a whole new wrinkle.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #130 on: March 27, 2013, 01:15:46 PM »
The military is slightly different but there are other issues at play as well.  The invasion of a man dominated area by a woman immediately makes these women a target.  Women stand out in an area where there are nothing but men and so women are the "odd man out" to use the phrase.  This makes the woman or women weak because they are separate, they are different.  The woman being different and unaccepted by the group is not offered the protection of the group, therefore she is an easy target. 

Also keep in mind about weakness that this is the motive behind why one of the most dangerous times for a woman is when she is pregnant.  Pregnancy triggers the notion that she is weaker and dependent, in need of defending because she is at a disadvantage for carrying a child.  Second only to leaving a situation of domestic violence, pregnancy is the most dangerous time.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #131 on: March 27, 2013, 01:26:32 PM »
Oniya,

Exactly!  Situational awareness, know what is happening around yuo.

Trieste,

Is the rate of sexual assault in the armed forces higher or lower than in civilian life? tthe last time I looked at this closely was many years ago, when the "Rape Differential" between civilian and military perpetrators was an issue.  This is very much a hot button issue.  Military personnel have lower crime rates than civilians.  Across the board.  But the rates for rape are not lowered by the same percentage as with other crimes.  This was the "rape Differential" that got a lot of people wound up back n the day.  This may be what you are thinking of, because as far as I have been able to tell - and I stand ready to accept correction - a smaller percentage of military personnel are rapists than civilians.

 http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1996-11-24/news/9611221637_1_violent-crimes-military-rates-civilian

One possible explanation that has been kicking around since the 1990's is that the Military trains men to be more aggressive, and the rape differential is a blowback function of that training.

A newspaper article from the period in question:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19961124&id=IwQwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6fwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6674,2194602


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #132 on: March 27, 2013, 01:35:39 PM »
But who is doing the assaulting in those cases?  Most likely someone who thought the other person could be 'taken' without too much effort.  Add to that, the fact that you're expected to trust your squad with your life in a very literal sense, and that kind of 'friendly fire' gets a whole new wrinkle.

You're looking at only one portion of the military. The rapes aren't all heavy harsh assaults. The five assaults I was tied into tangentially while in service (either having been seen with the victim before the assault or as a witness for one side or another (along with most of my squadron)) all had the same elements involved.

1. Alcohol

That was it. Not one of the sexual assaults/rapes I PERSONALLY know of in the military in the 15 years I served were physical assaults. They were mostly what would be categorized as date rapes. Of the five my squadron was involved in, four were clear cut straight up the girl got too drunk and things got out of hand.

The last one.. well all I will say is this. It was neither clear cut or fairly prosecuted. When the court martial is administrated by the 'victim's'  CO, fairness went out the window. Add in that there was a major discrepancy in reporting between the military police, the foreign authorities and the defendant (and witnesses) and the CO flat out refused to call in an impartial (and out of chain of command) representative.. well it got ugly and I got to watch a person who might have been innocent get rail roaded, his life ruined.

I know a bit as I got to listen into his talk with his lawyer after the court martial (he and his co-defendants were all under suicide watch and he waived privacy to the duty watchers). I don't know if he was guilty or not.. but damn.. there was a definite set of tracks that he was tied to before the Base CO rail roaded him on.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #133 on: March 27, 2013, 01:43:00 PM »
Alcohol is the touchstone standard all date-rape drugs aspire to.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #134 on: March 27, 2013, 01:43:24 PM »
Military women who have been targets of assault have a slightly different perspective on that: http://www.npr.org/2013/03/21/174840895/sexual-violence-victims-say-military-justice-system-is-broken

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #135 on: March 27, 2013, 01:45:24 PM »
The position that any justice system is broken when it comes to rape is an easy position to defend.  With very damned good reason.  They are all broken.

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2013, 02:11:51 PM »
That position seems a little callous.  :-\ It's a little like saying "Eh, saying there are starving kids in our cities is an easy position to defend. There are starving kids everywhere." While that might be true, it is ignoring the degree to which something might happen/be difficult, etc.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2013, 02:20:01 PM »
Oh, I'm not calling for a resigned acceptance of the way things are.   the way things are sucks canal water.

 I consider the current state of affairs to be a challenge to overcome.

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #138 on: March 27, 2013, 05:08:54 PM »
A quick bit of digging through Google has turned up some evidence to support and reinforce that programs aimed at keeping women safe from an attacker do produce results.  Research done between a control group and a group of women trained in tactics of physical and non-physical resistance/awareness did show a 4.2% decrease in the incident of rape.  “Of the 918 women in the treatment groups, 20.3% reported being sexually victimized during follow-up compared to 24.5% among the 868 women in the control groups – a reduction of four sexual assaults for every 100 women attending the program” (Hanson & Broom, 2005, p. 366).  This tended toward women taught self-defense and self-awareness, but there were other benefits to such programs.  Women reported being more self-confident, assertive and felt more in control.  There was also some preliminary data to suggest being forearmed with these classes helped women avoid PTSD from being sexually assaulted.

There was a study I found that showed some interesting results.  The study did two follow up interviews with a group participating in a risk-reduction class and a control group.  2 months out there was little reduction for women who had not been sexually assaulted in the past and little reduction for women who were severely assaulted.  The moderate group benefitted the most from the risk reduction survey and the researcher stated that this group probably experienced a reduction in re-victimization.  The six month followed about the same pattern.  Women that had not been sexually assaulted before were already at a low risk and so the numbers did not move.  Women that had been severely sexually assaulted before were at the high end of the risk scale and their numbers did not decrease significantly.  The study does conclude that aiming rape reduction programs at college level is probably not as effective as aiming them at adolescent women, since being sexually abused or assaulted once is a stronger predictor for later in life.  There was also suggestion that the materials used and the presence of compassionate facilitators that the women trusted might have a significant impact on the results.

As with many social research studies there are a great many variables to consider.  Rape is a complex crime that brings a great many social factors into play.

http://www.usca.edu/psychology/pdf/Gidycz,%20Lynn%20et%20al.pdf

http://snow.vawnet.org/Assoc_Files_VAWnet/AR_RapePrevention.pdf

Took a look at Hanson and Broom, and the quoted statement comes at the end of a long paragraph talking about how the results of studies have consistently been inconsistent in measurable benefit of education programs such as theirs. Also, on the very next page, they seem to question whether the effect they're seeing is real. Furthermore, with a p value of .90, the statistics don't appear all that reliable. I really loathe statistics, so I'm not going to analyze them past that.

It is absolutely awesome that women feel more confident and whatnot, but again, the actual effect of female-focused educational studies in lowering the incidence of sexual assault is questionable. With funding being in short supply in recent years, I would put forth that male-oriented education should be first priority. Preferably hit both, sure, but I would personally like to see teaching men not to rape given a higher priority in general, definitely.

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #139 on: March 27, 2013, 06:05:31 PM »
 Just gonna leave this here.

Athlete Overcomes Rape (Onion SportsDome)

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #140 on: March 29, 2013, 09:54:54 AM »
The military is slightly different but there are other issues at play as well.  The invasion of a man dominated area by a woman immediately makes these women a target.  Women stand out in an area where there are nothing but men and so women are the "odd man out" to use the phrase.  This makes the woman or women weak because they are separate, they are different.  The woman being different and unaccepted by the group is not offered the protection of the group, therefore she is an easy target.
That only looks at a portion of the problem. Somewhere in the ballpark of 2% of active service members report being raped and the male:female ration is pretty much 1:1. The common denominator is that they are mostly raped by people who outrank them. Once again, rape is not about sex. It's not about sexuality. It's not about sexual attraction. It's the simple calculus in a predator's mind that they can exercise power over someone else and reduce a human being to an object of their will.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 05:17:44 PM by DarklingAlice »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #141 on: March 29, 2013, 01:31:40 PM »
Military women who have been targets of assault have a slightly different perspective on that: http://www.npr.org/2013/03/21/174840895/sexual-violence-victims-say-military-justice-system-is-broken

Didn't say that the one case of the ones I saw was typical. I know at least two airmen who did report their assaults and I (and others) didn't find out till much later. I have a friend, who I have long since lost contact with, only admitted to being raped by a guy we all knew till she made us swear to do no harm to him. (Technically cancelling all his allotments and lease while he was on deployment for three months did no harm. He lost no money....just his car, apartment and racked up months of nonpayment fines)

Just pointing out that most assaults of this nature I saw or heard of PERSONALLY were the more typical alcohol or date rape type. And that I know who the scrutiny of the last few years have failed to turn up at least one railroading I KNOW of. 

That being said some things like the assault by contractors in the Gulf are more scary than the military cases I saw in the news.

Like this...http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105153315

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #142 on: March 29, 2013, 02:23:14 PM »
Link doesn't work Darkling though I am suspicious of such a low number.  Most numbers I have seen a much higher.  As for power being the motivating factor, I may be playing a bit defensive here and if I am my apologies, but I do not think I have ever said sex was a motivator.  In fact many of the conditions listed and my participation thus far has been in highlighting the difference of power between attacker and victim being a significant factor.

Offline Silk

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #143 on: March 30, 2013, 08:00:56 PM »
I geuss I have a rather contriversial stance on the matter. Nobody should be made to be the guilty party when a crime happens to them and it's a tragedy when it happens, but you also need to be aware of your own actions which influence it. If I'm walking around a seedy area of a city flashing my £50/expensive phone/mp3/Ipad/etc to everyone, I'm increasing the chances of my getting mugged. Theres got to be education and information for all sides. It's sad to say I'm less sympathetic when a woman goes to a bar on her own in revealing clothing constantly flirting and get's raped compared to a woman who say get's jumped on her way back from work and was doing nothing sexually provokative to promote that sort of response in those around her.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #144 on: March 30, 2013, 08:07:55 PM »
A, to reiterate, rape is not a sex motivated crime. This should not have to be repeated so many times in this thread.

B, why is it, in your two examples, that you are getting mugged but 'a woman' is getting raped?

C, I actually would agree with you were it not for one point: No one tries to let the mugger go free or claim that it isn't a 'real' mugging. Even if they think you shouldn't have been in that part of town or flashing your money or careless, people still realize that the mugger committed a crime and the actions of the victim do not lessen the severity of that crime. However, many of the criticisms of victims of rape, even if there are legitimate things the victim could have done to lessen their chances, are used as excuses for why the crime wasn't actually "rape rape" and the victim was "asking for it". They are attempts to acquit rapists in a way that nobody attempts to acquit muggers. It creates a double standard between these two crimes that any system of justice cannot abide.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #145 on: March 30, 2013, 08:14:24 PM »
What Darkling Alice said.

If you leave your car unlocked and it is stolen no one denies you were the victim of a crime.

Offline Silk

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #146 on: March 30, 2013, 08:28:53 PM »
No but being assaulted by someone you was actively provoking could've been a crime avoided if you wasn't provoking. You cannot expect anyone else to look after your safety you should be looking after your own. And it can easily be classed as a fight instead of a assault if you get found out that you was actively provoking the situation.

That's what it largely comes down to, what actions could you of taken to not become a victim. It's not a nice world, people don't magically look after you and have your best interests all the time, especially when you got cognitive affecting substances like alcohol into the mix. The only person who can take steps to cater to your own protection every time is yourself, and not making yourself a target is just as viable as being able to physically defend yourself when it comes to protecting yourself.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2013, 08:49:01 PM »
Yes Silk, but if someone actively provoked an assault on themselves the police still treat the person that was attacked as an assault victim.  Charges are still pressed against the attacker for assault.  Nobody attempts to dispute that the assault actually took place.  A woman that dresses "provactively" though does not get the same treatment.

Offline Shjade

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2013, 08:52:46 PM »
A, to reiterate, rape is not a sex motivated crime. This should not have to be repeated so many times in this thread.

That seems misleading to declare as a universal fact. Rape has a lot of motivating elements behind it. If sex wasn't one of them why would it be involved?

Yes, it's about power or anger or plain sociopathy or any number of other driving forces that push a person well beyond the point of thinking into destructive action, but you'd have to think sex is in there somewhere. Otherwise why wouldn't they just beat up a victim, or rob them, or murder them, or, y'know, do any number of other invasive things that aren't sexual?

This isn't even getting into the wide range of psychological profiles that execute rapes, from your scumbag date rapist to your familial incestuous rapes to your rarer psychopathic complex rapes and so on. It seems pretty presumptuous to outright rule out anything as a possible motivation.

Yes Silk, but if someone actively provoked an assault on themselves the police still treat the person that was attacked as an assault victim.  Charges are still pressed against the attacker for assault.  Nobody attempts to dispute that the assault actually took place.

Unless money or politics are involved. -.-

Offline Trieste

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2013, 08:56:25 PM »
I would go so far as to draw active parallels.

When someone is mugged, they are not asked by the cops why they were wearing pants that show the outline of their wallet. They're not asked, "Well are you sure they knew you didn't want to just give them your money? Did you clearly tell them you didn't want to give them money? How many times did you say that?". And people don't make comments about, "You know he agreed to give them all his money then regretted it later and called it a mugging."

Or insert your own sterotype as you like. Could be a fun party game.