Coronavirus - are you afraid?

[Oreo]

Ah yes, the luxury bones. Because sight and teeth aren't at all critical to health for... reasons.

I've had the same glasses for 9+ years now and my eyesight has changed significantly since then, but I haven't been able to afford a vision appointment. I'm legally blind. -.- It's completely mind-blowing that it's that expensive for me to go get my eyes retested and get a new prescription, yet here I am... Blind as a bat...

Same here. I simply cannot afford to get the glasses. Been about 15 years with this pair.

[Haibane]

And it pains and saddens me that about 1/2 of Americans think that a state-funded healthcare system would mean turning your country into a socialist state, if not a communist one. I just shake my head at the blind wrongness of all of that. Do right-wing Americans think the British are socialists? Or commies? I fervently hope that Biden's tenure in the White House will restore Obamacare to its original function and framework. Heck, for the cost of a nuclear carrier the USA could probably offer lifetime free healthcare to all its citizens.

[Dhi]

Americans typically believe healthcare legitimately costs the tens of thousands of dollars insurance companies are charged, and that universal healthcare can't possibly be covered by taxes as they stand.

But it doesn't matter what we believe, because capitalism's stranglehold on US politics will never budge for popular opinion.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I got a call from one of my attorneys this evening.  The man who attack me and beat me years ago is in prison and has contracted C19.  He is in the prison infirmary and may be transferred to ICU if they have a bed for him.

[Missy]

And it pains and saddens me that about 1/2 of Americans think that a state-funded healthcare system would mean turning your country into a socialist state, if not a communist one. I just shake my head at the blind wrongness of all of that. Do right-wing Americans think the British are socialists? Or commies? I fervently hope that Biden's tenure in the White House will restore Obamacare to its original function and framework. Heck, for the cost of a nuclear carrier the USA could probably offer lifetime free healthcare to all its citizens.

Actually they think that Canadians and Brits hate their healthcare system and that its a steaming mess.

They honestly believe that people are dieing to get into the hospitals there or there are massive systemic problems whihc undermine the effectiveness of healthcare in nations with Social Healthcare systems.

[Dashenka]

besides how crazy-not-okay our whole system is; it's also extra bonkers that you have to get separate insurance for vision and for dental than from the other health insurance.

Same in the Netherlands. It's not as crazy if you think about how much it can cost. Contact lenses or glasses make a huge difference. And if you'reone who wants 6 glasses so you can look good every day, systems like the NHS or a one policy covers all don't work.

Also if you cover it in the general insurance, everybodybpays for it. Also those who don't need glasses or extra white teeth. You insure what you need or want. You don't pay for stuff you don't need or want.

[Oniya]

Also if you cover it in the general insurance, everybodybpays for it. Also those who don't need glasses or extra white teeth. You insure what you need or want. You don't pay for stuff you don't need or want.

So, does the NHS not distinguish between things like cosmetic rhinoplasty and medically necessary surgeries?

[Dashenka]

I don't use the NHS so I have no idea.

But who is going to check whether or not somebody needs a surgery or just wants to look pretty. After all, looking a certain way can be seen as a necessity.

In NL, where there is no government health service but you NEED an insurance, basically the insurance companies decide that. In the UK? I have no idea.

[Haibane]

Actually they think that Canadians and Brits hate their healthcare system and that its a steaming mess.

They honestly believe that people are dieing to get into the hospitals there or there are massive systemic problems whihc undermine the effectiveness of healthcare in nations with Social Healthcare systems.

Really? How bizarre. Where does this "news" come from?

Honestly while there are some long queues (and I do mean years in some cases) for some specific and complex operations that utilize the skills of a select few surgeons or require very expensive equipment available only at a few locations nationally, 95% of things run smooth as clockwork. I have visited my doc many many times and have never waited more than 30 mins to see him or her and can always phone for an appointment either that day or the next day if its urgent. The NHS has all manner of targets which are regularly met. If there really were serious problems it would be quickly exposed in parliament and addressed.

And for those that can and wish to afford it we have private healthcare, so the best of both worlds.

Then I suppose if people in another country who are ignorant of the facts think another country's national healthcare system is a train wreck, they're clearly going to have a wrong opinion about it. It's almost another conspiracy theory.

I actually feel quite insulted, almost a reaction of "how DARE they think that when they clearly are completely unaware of the reality?" :)

[Haibane]

If you'reone who wants 6 glasses so you can look good every day, systems like the NHS or a one policy covers all don't work.

No national health service is supposed to cover "luxury" items, that's ridiculous. Here eye tests are free for certain age groups and certain low income groups and lenses and frames very heavily subsidised. You get a basic set of spectacles but that is plenty for most people for whom the alternative is being unable to, say, work, drive or attend college.

If you want 6 pairs of designer glasses then yes, quite obviously you pay for those yourself.

Also if you cover it in the general insurance, everybodybpays for it. Also those who don't need glasses or extra white teeth. You insure what you need or want. You don't pay for stuff you don't need or want.

Yes, everybody pays for it. That's the entire point of it!

Your argument ignores the fact that a national healthcare system spread over the entire population costs everyone much less and EVERYBODY, and I mean EVERYBODY needs healthcare, even basic visits to a GP, dentist etc, so that argument simply doesn't stand up - look at the success of state-funded healthcare in the UK vs the complete mess of private in the USA (if you are not rich).

And once again, I reiterate the point that in the UK there is private healthcare as well if a person wishes and can afford it.

[Haibane]

Sorry for the multi-posts, I ought to read to the end of the discussion and answer all in one.

So, does the NHS not distinguish between things like cosmetic rhinoplasty and medically necessary surgeries?

In the UK it does. You cannot get a large range of cosmetic surgeries on the NHS. It is for necessary and essential treatments only. Generally speaking it covers life-saving major surgeries and treatments, preventative out-patient visits and treatments, accidents, and general daily healthcare monitoring (general practitioners). If you want firmer boobs etc, you go private although there is I believe assistance for gender reassignment procedures and related issues but I haven't explored these so can't give a firm yes or no.

I don't use the NHS so I have no idea.

Are you referring to the UK here or your own country? Either way you may wish to withhold comments on something you haven't experienced. Come to the UK and enjoy the benefits of using it for ten years and you'll change your opinion, I promise.

But who is going to check whether or not somebody needs a surgery or just wants to look pretty.

In the UK your GP does that. Once they are satisfied you have a health issue that is covered by the NHS, he or she will refer you to a consultant (at a clinic or hospital). So yes, plenty of sensible procedures in place to ensure the patient is aware they are or are not covered. Yes, non-essential treatments are not covered and your GP is the person who decides that, following guidance from what services the NHS provides. Its all very simple and straightforward and extremely effective and efficient.

In the UK the whole thing hinges around being registered with a GP (General Practitioner) which is always a persons first point of contact unless they are involved in an accident when they go straight to A&E and are treated before any questions are asked, not after and certainly not until they have paid.

Looking a certain way is never a necessity. In the UK healthcare means exactly that. Things not to do with your mental or physical state of health are cosmetic and you pay for such things privately.

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/

https://www.expatica.com/uk/healthcare/healthcare-basics/the-national-health-service-and-health-insurance-in-the-uk-1092057/

[Lexandria]

besides how crazy-not-okay our whole system is; it's also extra bonkers that you have to get separate insurance for vision and for dental than from the other health insurance.

I want to clarify this statement.

In the united states, the insurance companies that handle 'over all' health (physical health and fairly recently also mental health) are not the same companies that cover vision or dental. If I want to actually have over-all coverage, I have to have three different insurance cards, from three different companies, just to have everything I need to function as a human covered. Which is bonkers. All three have premiums, all three have different places they will and won't work, none of the three actually fully cover everything you need to survive and be healthy, and most of the 'affordable' ones are through the same company that they make you go to for your medical examinations, which means that the doctor you go to listens to the insurance company that owns the business they work for before they'll listen to you (Kaiser Permanente, for example). For some reason, in the US anyway, a person's eyes and teeth aren't considered part of their overall health, and so having insurance for either is a 'luxury' rather than an essential need to have good health.

[Dashenka]

I want to clarify this statement.

In the united states, the insurance companies that handle 'over all' health (physical health and fairly recently also mental health) are not the same companies that cover vision or dental. If I want to actually have over-all coverage, I have to have three different insurance cards, from three different companies, just to have everything I need to function as a human covered. Which is bonkers. All three have premiums, all three have different places they will and won't work, none of the three actually fully cover everything you need to survive and be healthy, and most of the 'affordable' ones are through the same company that they make you go to for your medical examinations, which means that the doctor you go to listens to the insurance company that owns the business they work for before they'll listen to you (Kaiser Permanente, for example). For some reason, in the US anyway, a person's eyes and teeth aren't considered part of their overall health, and so having insurance for either is a 'luxury' rather than an essential need to have good health.

That's not very different in the UK or I think anywhere really.

Mental health issues, at least a lot of them, are treated with a 'one cure for all' method here in the UK, which might as well be nothing at all. It's not considered basic health care. "Oh you're feeling a bit suicidal? Right let me put you on a waiting list for a pill... What? You want to see somebody?? No... don't be silly. Of course we don't cover that."

When you break your finger or twist your ankle after a slight tumble, your visit to the first aid or GP will get covered no problem.

In the Netherlands, a basic insurance covers 'the basics'. If you want insurance for you glasses or your teeth or even physiotherapy of psycholists, you need additional insurances. Yes, you can do them at the same company but it's also not considered basic health care.


The US is not THAT different. Except European countries sprinkle it with a social flavour of 'everybody's equal'.

[Fox Lokison]

In the UK your GP does that. Once they are satisfied you have a health issue that is covered by the NHS, he or she will refer you to a consultant (at a clinic or hospital). So yes, plenty of sensible procedures in place to ensure the patient is aware they are or are not covered. Yes, non-essential treatments are not covered and your GP is the person who decides that, following guidance from what services the NHS provides. Its all very simple and straightforward and extremely effective and efficient.

In the US, my GP referred me for several essential treatments - such as physical therapy - to avoid putting me on opiates at 26, with a family history of addiction. Like, every reason to not put me on them. Mom even used in the womb, which put me at risk. But insurance took a look at that, went "nah, we don't think he needs it, he can still move around and he's not in a wheelchair" and that was that. She had me go see a specialist (they did cover that) who came out and said the same. Therapist reported as well that the chronic pain and limited mobility was making my mental health tank, and prolonging my disability.

"Nope. Don't think he needs it. Give him some pills if it's really that bad."

It's up to an insurance company if I get the essential treatment according to three different professionals. They get to handwave it away because they don't want to cover it.

Don't get me started on what happened to my mom during her cancer. I swear, dealing with that is half of what made her lose her hair.

Like I said before, the NHS could definitely use some work, but when it comes to actually getting treatment, it's leagues better than the US. The only insurances that would cover my physical therapy were so expensive, I couldn't even dream of having them. Without treatment, I can't get work or go back to school. Ergo, never gonna reach that point unless I find a workaround. That vicious cycle categorizes the American health system. There's no way to be uplifted without a fat wad of cash and the ability to buy healthcare. Call me a socialist, but I'd much rather a society where everyone has access to healthcare and isn't at the whim of insurance conglomerates. I'd expand the system, sure, but universal healthcare systems get crippled by the politicians and the vultures looking to make a buck, not the fact that they give a damn about everyone.

But that's a rant about capitalism for another day...

[Humble Scribe]

Yes, everybody pays for it. That's the entire point of it!

And actually everybody pays much less than in the US, too. US per capita healthcare spending is roughly three times that of the UK, but life expectancy in the US is actually lower.
https://data.oecd.org/healthres/health-spending.htm
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-birth-oecd

[TheGlyphstone]

That might be our ridiculous over-prevalence of obesity contributing to the lower life expectancy, rather than the quality of health care specifically.  [/devilsadvocate]

[Haibane]

That's not very different in the UK or I think anywhere really.

Mental health issues, at least a lot of them, are treated with a 'one cure for all' method here in the UK, which might as well be nothing at all. It's not considered basic health care. "Oh you're feeling a bit suicidal? Right let me put you on a waiting list for a pill... What? You want to see somebody?? No... don't be silly. Of course we don't cover that."

I do not know where you get this stuff but you are simply stating falsehoods.

I suffer from low moods and in one incident a few years back, clinical depression. I went to my GP and he sent me straight away to an NHS mental heath specialist where I had counselling and medication, all on the NHS other than the prescription fee.

No waiting, nothing.

Please do state facts in these discussions and not spew out Trump-like untruths.

[Haibane]

And I apologise again for heading away from COVID-19. To get us back a bit on track, while Boris Johnson's government has thrown out all kinds of badly timed and apparently contradictory messages and instructions, throughout it all our NHS has performed superbly and effectively, and still been able to function in addressing some non-C19 health issues despite some obvious poor decisions in PPE procurement (which we do not know if it was an NHS error or simply a government choice of supplier).

[Dashenka]

I do not know where you get this stuff

Personal experiences.

And this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51269618

Among other articles.

[Beguile's Mistress]

It surprised me when it started coming up in the pages of some novels I was reading.  The plot would talk about one person ferrying another to the hospital in his or her car because you had to wait so long for an ambulance.  Here in the US, because the ambulance is part of a firehouse or emergency fleet we have response times measured in minutes not hours.  I even read a story where a person was hit by a car and even though the ambulance was called for they didn't start for the scene until the police had been notified, arrived at the accident site and the contacted the hospital or whomever and verified the need for emergency services.

That is totally frightening.  The last time I needed EMTs I was having breathing problems and my world was going grey.  An ambulance and fire rescue unit arrived in less that 10 minutes with two EMTs and four firemen.  I would have died waiting for emergency services in the UK.

[Muddy Waters]

My mother had a mini-stroke on Sunday and it took the EMS around 10 minutes to reach us which is amazing since we live in rural North Carolina.   Granted it took an hour to get to the nearest hospital that could help her as our small county hospital couldn't do anything for her and wasn't staffed to help someone with a Stroke or Heart issues.

[Oniya]

I don't use the NHS so I have no idea.

But who is going to check whether or not somebody needs a surgery or just wants to look pretty. After all, looking a certain way can be seen as a necessity.

Usually, your doctor (General Practitioner or Primary Care Provider) will recommend a medically necessary surgery.  For example, if your septum is deviated enough to cause difficulty breathing, or if you need nasal cautery to resolve frequent nose-bleeds.  If one were in an accident causing significant damage to the face, nasal reconstruction would probably be recommended, but this would not be the same as a someone walking into their doctor's office and saying 'I want my nose to look like Natalie Portman's.'

[Mithlomwen]

I got a call from one of my attorneys this evening.  The man who attack me and beat me years ago is in prison and has contracted C19.  He is in the prison infirmary and may be transferred to ICU if they have a bed for him.

I'd say that's Karma at work. 

[gaggedLouise]

Are you referring to the UK here or your own country? Either way you may wish to withhold comments on something you haven't experienced. Come to the UK and enjoy the benefits of using it for ten years and you'll change your opinion, I promise.

Just for the record, Dasha has resided in the UK for several years by now and is no longer a Russian citizen - she relinquished her Russian passport a year ago.

[Skynet]

That's not very different in the UK or I think anywhere really.

Mental health issues, at least a lot of them, are treated with a 'one cure for all' method here in the UK, which might as well be nothing at all. It's not considered basic health care. "Oh you're feeling a bit suicidal? Right let me put you on a waiting list for a pill... What? You want to see somebody?? No... don't be silly. Of course we don't cover that."

When you break your finger or twist your ankle after a slight tumble, your visit to the first aid or GP will get covered no problem.

In the Netherlands, a basic insurance covers 'the basics'. If you want insurance for you glasses or your teeth or even physiotherapy of psycholists, you need additional insurances. Yes, you can do them at the same company but it's also not considered basic health care.


The US is not THAT different. Except European countries sprinkle it with a social flavour of 'everybody's equal'.

Personal experiences.

And this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51269618

Among other articles.

I don't think that we can speak on global matters by primarily citing personal experience. I can just as easily counter with hearing from European friends (and friends from countries with state-subsidized healthcare) that the US situation is very much unique in the industrialized world.

Important medicine is subject to some very rapid price spikes solely due to the whims of private companies. The prices of EpiPens dramatically increased because Martin Shkreli wanted to make more money irregardless of supply and demand. It's also legal to give patients "surprise medical bills" where doctors can treat patients for illnesses and injuries that they didn't ask for or know they had, often at exhorbitant prices. This is wildly unpopular, but any laws to strike them down didn't make it through Congress due to the pharmacuetical industry bribing politicians to vote otherwise.

Insulin prices are far higher in the US than in many other countries, and people have been dying from this for decades.

In nations with state-subsidized healthcare, the expenses from rare and costly medicine and medical equipment is eaten by the State. Much like any other public industry the taxpayer cost allows them to operate at a loss. This isn't necessarily a bad thing unless you're a Libertarian or Anarchist who is against the concept of the State in the first place. And in the case of life-saving medical treatment it's just as valuable as having self-defense forces protect people from outside aggression (maybe even more so when said nation is in a time of peace).

I can also speak from personal experience that the concept of medicine being a privilege is not really common among European citizens or politicians barring some laissez-faire capitalist parties, and judging by the other comments and sources in this thread this seems to check out.