Coronavirus - are you afraid?

[Haibane]

As for what you can do with a billion dollars that you cannot do with 100 million dollars. It's really simple.

Employ more people. Pay more people's wages. Get a bigger company to make a change in the world.

This is not what the discussion is about. It is not about the philanthropists like Bill Gates who establish charitable foundations or the Elon Musks who go on to employ 1000s in new ventures, its about those who just make a vast pile of money and sit on it, doing nothing with it except pass it on in their will after they die, or even worse, like Green, blow it on women and champagne while his ex-employees have no job and probably little to no pension. Its about amassing obscene and useless piles of wealth and doing nothing with it. Yes, its their choice and their right to do that, but if they do others are wholly entitled to stereotype them and be extremely critical.

[TheGlyphstone]

The ethics of wealth redistribution as a philosophy might be getting a bit tangential to the topic, though?

[Dashenka]

but if they do others are wholly entitled to stereotype them and be extremely critical.

They are. But then the wealthy are wholly entitled to feel discriminated against. Again, replace 'wealthy' by 'black' or 'muslim' and it's no longer acceptable :)

The ethics of wealth redistribution as a philosophy might be getting a bit tangential to the topic, though?

Correct.

[TheGlyphstone]

They are. But then the wealthy are wholly entitled to feel discriminated against. Again, replace 'wealthy' by 'black' or 'muslim' and it's no longer acceptable :)


Correct.

However, can you name one example of a negative consequence rich people have because of their wealth other than 'hurt feelings'? Because it's stretching the definition of discrimination like a pretzel to link wealth and ethnicity in terms of being discriminated against. Discrimination has serious, permanent consequences when you're in the real world and not writing words on the internet.

[Regina Minx]

As for what you can do with a billion dollars that you cannot do with 100 million dollars. It's really simple.

Employ more people. Pay more people's wages. Get a bigger company to make a change in the world.

The ultra-rich tend not to employ as many people as you seem to think. Job creation isn't really a thing that an individual person or even a class of people are responsible for. Jobs are created by an expanding economy,  which is a function of consumer demand and purchase. If you want to really create jobs you first have to answer the question about what policies will result in greater economic expansion...a heavier tax burden on rich people or a heavier tax burden on middle and working class people?

No one, no person or class of people, creates jobs. Jobs are created when the economy expands. Economic expansion is a function of increased purchasing power in the economy. So, the real question is, what results in greater economic expansion, giving more money to rich people or giving more money to poor and middle-class people? While I believe the answer to be obvious, I'll spell it out anyway. If you gave all the billionaires a tax cut, saving them as a class an extra few million dollars, how many new cars will they buy? How many TVs? How many will employ local carpenters, plumbers, and designers? for a home improvement project? How many more times will they dine out? How much more will they spend at the local supermarket? The answer is, very little, compared to what they did before. Giving billionaires an extra few million dollars will not do anything to spur the economy.

On the other hand, what if you gave everyone making less than $60,000 a year a few extra thousand dollars. A great many of them will buy new cars. They will buy new televisions and start home improvement projects. They will dine out a little more and spend a little more at the supermarket. In other words, giving money to those that actually need it will stimulate the economy much, much more.

The unstated premise that I think you're working from and that is demonstrably false is that every time a billionaire gets a little more money he or she rushes out to create new jobs. Billionaires getting a few million more are much more likely to park the money in a bank or, more likely still, play the investment market game, doing nothing to directly stimulate the economy.

[Dashenka]

So the Netherlands' government has the plans to start vaccinating in the first week of january.


However a lot of doctors and hospitals are saying it's simply not possible due to logistical issues with the Pfizer vaccin, which is, if all goes to plan, the first one to be approved by the EMA (European Medicin Agency I suppose).

Typical example of the government having no clue what's going on on lower levels. I hope it's true though. And I hope the vaccins will work, taking a lot of the urgency off the whole virus.

[Regina Minx]

So the Netherlands' government has the plans to start vaccinating in the first week of january.


However a lot of doctors and hospitals are saying it's simply not possible due to logistical issues with the Pfizer vaccin, which is, if all goes to plan, the first one to be approved by the EMA (European Medicin Agency I suppose).

The Pfizer one is the one that needs to be kept super-cold, right? Yeah, it's going to be a problem distributing it outside of urban areas, but let's not mitigate the impact of having your city essential workers be vaccinated against the virus.

[Missy]

Hey Regina, thanks for posting a fact based analyctical reply on the subject at hand. I for one am more than put off by the obsessions some have with 'trickle-down economics' the same philosiphy which has failed Americans for what, three? four? five? more? generations now. Of course all you need to do is look at the statistics and see how it's played out.

[Dhi]

I haven't seen statistically significant evidence yet that either Pfizer or Moderna actually sterilize the virus, so we have to continue with our current caution to protect one another.

[Haibane]

They are. But then the wealthy are wholly entitled to feel discriminated against.

No they are not. That is NOT discrimination, not in any way shape or form. Its justified criticism. How you are even arguing this point is beyond me. If that is really how you think then I am out of here.

[Regina Minx]

Hey Regina, thanks for posting a fact based analyctical reply on the subject at hand. I for one am more than put off by the obsessions some have with 'trickle-down economics' the same philosiphy which has failed Americans for what, three? four? five? more? generations now. Of course all you need to do is look at the statistics and see how it's played out.

On my headstone, I want it written 'she anal-ized a lot. That's not a typo.'

[Haibane]

The Pfizer one is the one that needs to be kept super-cold, right? Yeah, it's going to be a problem distributing it outside of urban areas, but let's not mitigate the impact of having your city essential workers be vaccinated against the virus.

The UK plan is to store it at special facilities and ship it out to distribution centres in accordance with demand - demand being those responding to the letters each person will be sent.

The vaccines must be kept at -70C during transportation and storage. It must be thawed before it is given to a patient. It can be stored in a normal fridge for a few days before being used. It also has a life of about 5 to 6 hours in a cooled environment such as a cooler box of the type used to transport organs and this last storage option is the planned distribution method to patients and staff in care homes. The BBC report also mentioned mass vaccination centres possibly set up in temporary clinics at large locations like sports facilities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54889084

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55045639

The whole thing sounds incredibly complex logistically and incredibly expensive but the NHS is very good at massive logistical tasks like this. They provide annually some 30,000,000 flu jabs within a few weeks in October/November, so the UK has the infrastructure and skilled people to carry this out.

[Dashenka]

The Pfizer one is the one that needs to be kept super-cold, right? Yeah, it's going to be a problem distributing it outside of urban areas, but let's not mitigate the impact of having your city essential workers be vaccinated against the virus.

No mitigation here :)

As I said, I think the moment we start vaccinating, the urgency is off the virus very quickly. The only question then is how quickly can we make it. I've heard some stories that countries like India have the potential to produce the vaccins really really fast and in great amounts. The challenge then is to distribute them around the world.

But yeah, january 4th is next month. The end is in sight. Thankfully.

[TheHangedOne]

Hey Regina, thanks for posting a fact based analyctical reply on the subject at hand. I for one am more than put off by the obsessions some have with 'trickle-down economics' the same philosiphy which has failed Americans for what, three? four? five? more? generations now.

Trickle-down economics has been failing America since the 1930s, so almost a hundred years. Mind you, the term itself was coined by a humorist. Same problem we have with "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" (a physically impossible joke that's taken seriously).

In regards to the vaccine, I am very concerned with side effects. I'm stuck in that high risk group, since I'm immunocompromised; but I avoid yearly flu vaccines. Because the vaccines make me sick for three or four days. Meanwhile, if I just stick with my typical methods for avoiding contagion; well, I haven't gotten the flu in the past six years (and the past two sick seasons, I managed to stay entirely healthy, no small accomplishment).

[Iniquitous]

One of mom's coworkers is being tested just to confirm that she has covid and one of my coworkers is being tested to confirm he has covid.  I am REALLY hoping that my antibodies are buffed, primed and ready cause I do not want a second go around.

As for the vaccine?  My aunt's job has made it mandatory for the employees to get it (she works in a medical building) and since medical workers are getting it first, I will get to see the side effects before I get one.  Though, based on what I have heard, side effects are pretty much 3-4 days of symptoms like chills, headache, sweating, low fever, body aches.  I can deal with that.

[gaggedLouise]

The Pfizer one is the one that needs to be kept super-cold, right? Yeah, it's going to be a problem distributing it outside of urban areas, but let's not mitigate the impact of having your city essential workers be vaccinated against the virus.

Pfizer are working on developing and testing a second generation of their vaccine that's meant not to require extreme cold storage. Goes without saying that both they and the hospitals would want their product to be easier and simpler to use. :)

[Oniya]

I follow an epidemiologist on Twitter, and he linked out this article:  https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6520/1022.full  It goes into the side effects of this vaccine, and what those side effects (called reactogenicity) mean.  The short version is that they indicate that your immune system is producing antibodies to the virus, and your body is actively fighting the 'triggering protein'.  (In this case, the little spikey bits that give the coronavirus its 'corona'.)

[Haibane]

California church pastor dies after his mega-church did not comply with social distancing orders.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/a-california-pastor-died-of-covid-19-after-megachurch-in-which-he-worked-failed-to-comply-with-state-health-restrictions/ar-BB1bEQ9u

[Haibane]

This incident in Nottingham, UK highlights a point I made earlier that a significant proportion of people simply will not do as they are asked or told and will break social distancing and masking rules. Councils and governments simply have to treat people like children and instruct them, by law if necessary, what to do and what not to do during a pandemic. You can rely on a proportion of the population to act intelligently and responsibly, but not all of them.

This Christmas market, set up at great expense to traders and the council was intended to be open every day during December but was closed after just one day due to large crowds mingling too close together and a significant proportion of people not wearing masks. Given the known patterns we already have data on of how crowds behave I would have thought this was obviously going to happen and the plan to set up and open the market should have been refused by the city council.

It seems that it might have been practical to have controlled gated access points and a system of observers at these points to control the number of people attending and supplying masks but that may only have caused huge crowds outside waiting to get in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55206779

[Mechelle]

We had the first vaccinations in the United Kingdom today, with the first person to  receive the Pfizer vaccination being a 90 year old lady called Maggie Keenan, in Coventry, followed by an 81 year old called William Shakespeare (prompting lots of jokes such as "To V or not to V" and "The Taming of the Flu") and then thousands of others.
Although rates are still going up in parts of London, they are generally dropping, and it does feel like the beginning of the end. Hopefully, I am not speaking too soon, as I do expect them to rise again following the temporary relaxation of rules over Christmas, which will be long before most people are vaccinated.

[Dashenka]

As much as I hope it will go down as well, I don't think it will.

It will be some months before everybody is vaccinated and in that time, there is a real risk of people getting 'we're almost there-itis.'

'Why would I follow the lockdown rules when we're almost vaccinated.'


So as good as it is that the first people are getting vaccinated, it remains to be seen what it does for the numbers. After all, the biggest groups breaking the rules and getting sick, are the people who are getting vaccinated last.

[gaggedLouise]

As much as I hope it will go down as well, I don't think it will.

It will be some months before everybody is vaccinated and in that time, there is a real risk of people getting 'we're almost there-itis.'

'Why would I follow the lockdown rules when we're almost vaccinated.'


So as good as it is that the first people are getting vaccinated, it remains to be seen what it does for the numbers. After all, the biggest groups breaking the rules and getting sick, are the people who are getting vaccinated last.

Yep, I agree. And I think many medical professionals realize this too. Mass vaccionations are important *but* they are not a quick fix. Last night, I heard on the BBC how some infections specialist from the UK had cautioned that the effect of vaccinations on the current surge of new infections and deaths over the next couple of months, on the actual numbers of hospitalizations and deaths, will be slow and gradual; it won't be easy to spot at first. We're still in the long haul.

[TheHangedOne]

That'd be my concern as well. People will have false confidence.

In anticipation of problems during the colder months, my state (Massachusetts) will be going back to "level 1" lockdown (we have four levels of lockdown our state is using, with level 4 being an "all open/clear", and level 1 being "95% shut down") Sunday at midnight (so the lockdown will take effect on Monday).

[Dashenka]

Not sure if the confidence in the vaccin is false. I mean I'm pretty sure the vaccin works, otherwise it wouldn't be out yet. (Yes I am THAT naive)


It's just that the vaccin doesn't cure it. That's what I think a lot of people mix up. They think when they get corona, they'll get a vaccin and then they'll be better. This has to be communicated to people who are... less well off in the brains department so that they too respect the lockdowns. If they are doing that right now.

[Haibane]

Yes, its a preventative vaccination, so it reduces the chance of you becoming infected by ~95% If you already have C-19 I am unsure how useful it is, probably not very. But of course this means that it slowly reduces the overall impact and risk.

I think though that regarding pandemics populations are broadly split into two types of people. Those that are mostly sensible, obey lockdown rules, suffer all the issues with some stoicism knowing it will work out eventually, wear masks and socially distance. These will continue to heed the warnings and instructions and will get vaccinated in turn as their vulnerability group becomes eligible. I really don't see this "wise" group being adversely affected by "it's-okay-now-itis." They are most likely going through the same mental appreciation process we are on here and understand the need to continue to be circumspect in everything they do.

The second group might be labelled the "unwise" group and we all know who they are - lockdown breakers, deniers, the stupid, the selfish, sometimes just the plain unwitting... and so on. It is mostly this group that I think is continuing to allow the pandemic to be a pandemic. These people are the ones who are already a problem anyway and include the really idiotic fringe of anti-vax and all that. Some will become vaccinated, of course and so this group statistically ought to shrink and more and more of them become ~95% immune, but as medical experts have said all along C-19 will not and maybe never will go away, it will be with us for ever like smallpox, flu and other health risks.

I have a positive outlook however and I think as other vaccines become available and are in sufficient quantity for annual or bi-annual jabs we will get this under control. We are probably not looking at a "normal" 2021 but I do think we can reasonably expect a "normal" 2022.

I think though that at the core of this and to prevent a recurrence of a new strain the wildlife food trading market industry really has got to be better regulated. And that is mostly an issue for SE Asia countries though I do hope that in time a UN commission will set up observers and inspectors so that globally we are all at less risk of repeats of 2020.