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Author Topic: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up  (Read 3576 times)

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Offline alxnjshTopic starter

Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« on: November 01, 2010, 09:36:03 AM »
This is a rather interesting video. While a parody in some regards, it is very interesting!

"They have gotten to you with their so called facts."

Hi, I'm a Tea-Partier

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 10:22:12 AM »
Cute.. I'm not a tea-partier, but it makes me worried that everytime the more rational conservative/moderate portion of the republicans look to be recovering the reigns from the folks who are in control these whack jobs show up and derail the attempt. I want a party that isn't looking to regulate thought of the citizens at large, looks to genuinely trim the fat from government and (this applies to both sides) UNDERSTANDS what the word compromise means.

Because in my opinion, neither side represents the public interest, that comes from debate and compromise. And the legacy of the Bush (II) White House is a chronic lack of compromise, cooperation and reasoned debate. We have two parties who don't reflect the public interest but the special interests that they are beholding to.

But I like this guy's work. Anyone know if he ever took his job back at best buy?

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 10:58:27 AM »
I debated one of these people over the health care reform passed. He brought out the Constitutional arguements and the "why should I pay for your health care" position.

I said to him and others fair enough. The US Constitution doesn't give any right to a FEDERAL army save during time of war when state militias are brought under Federal command so go get a rifle, abolish the army (and air force) and have some people learn to fly fighters all paid for by the state of Florida. Why should I pay for your three childrens free public education they are your children YOU pay for that its the same thing if one takes the second arguement. Roads I don't like paying for your car and its use you can pay per mile a tax for that to meet all the costs and stop hitting up the taxes used for that. [Those were two examples from each of the two points.]

Its fine to say you want smaller Constitutional government but then live with the consquences. If you don't want to pay insurance for others ,which is the basis of insurance I added my house burglary insurance pays for everyone covered, then fine but then get rid of ALL insurance and government care even the VA. After all I told a vet that you got paid for the fighting, got medical care while in and were now mustered out my obligation to your care should be gone and I'm sad your disabled but go get  a job I don't want to give you a pension. I told him it was just an arguement along what they are saying if taking to their full conclusion.

I even mentioned that we could toss the Federal minimum wage and mployment laws after where is that in the Constitution people should be free to work for what they can get and employers want to pay. That could add oogles of jobs just pay $3.00 an hour over a 80 hour workweek and if they won't take it then tough.

I think this summed it all up nicely lets go to a "fuck you" society where we all care for ourselves or others as we feel like or let the distraught die and decrease the surface population. I favor government programs and sensible benefits for all paid for by properly spread out taxes say a 5% tax bracket to 70% for the very rich and few loopholes. then met the needs the people seem to want not what they are asking for.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 11:25:34 AM »
Ruby, would you say that either side isn't working for some special interest or not? That is MY big issue with Washington. They passed some legislation back in the mid to late 70s I think. They followed up a lead on one senator, then all of a sudden the office was cut to the throat for budget.

One of the best things I respect the President was his laying down the law on staff leaving the White House after a few years to go straight into a nice fat lobbyist job or folks who worked for Special Interests forming legislation dealing with it (in any area aside from politics that would be a massive conflict of interest).

I still don't think he merits a Peace Prize yet, but he's not as foul as some presidents that come to mind (I never voted for his predecessor) and he's trying.

Personally, I think if we could cut the influence peddling by 1/2.. just 1/2 of what it is now.. we'd most likely manage to save a TON of the budget without a lot of changes. Less pork and influence peddling. Companies run this country, and they shouldn't.

Offline Jude

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 07:21:12 PM »
Pork isn't always about business, in fact most of the time it's about citizens.  We have a congress that consists of individual representatives who would vote against a package that gives the US a net job growth of 200,000 positions if it meant that their home state lost 10,000 jobs -- that is why congress is so ineffectual and broken.  Look at the polling numbers, people are always far happier with their congressman than congress at large because he's working exclusively for the interests of his constituents and not the country.  This is what kills compromise, secures earmarks for strange projects to buy votes in places where it's completely senseless, and gets people re-elected in their home state.

I still think the reason why our Democracy is failing is purely us:  people don't vote abstractly enough.  They think "is this good for me" and not "is this good for the country."  A nation of citizens voting their own interest doesn't always equate with a policy that is good for the majority in a Democracy -- especially when you have a piecemeal government like we do.

I blame the wave of populism for all our problems.  Because of it we can no longer take a critical look at ourselves and wonder what happened that made our country exist in a simultaneous state of confidence and ignorance.  Every political spends most of election season trying to use lofty rhetoric to talk about how "great the American people are" while offering unrealistic solutions in speeches that refuse to even hint at the difficulties and sacrifices that lay ahead.  Then we all get disappointed when that politician takes office and reality crushes them, so we vote the other way, never once realizing it was our own idiotic expectations and inflated self-image that got us there to begin with.

Offline mystictiger

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2010, 07:39:48 PM »
The BBC Americana Podcast recently did a very episode on the tea party. I had initially dismissed it as cranks and wierdos at the extreme right fringe of American politics. I'd be grateful if people could point me towards neutral sources / sites about what the TP actually want beyond 'Freedom'.

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Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2010, 07:47:42 PM »
I think they want Obama to admit he's from Mordor.

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Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2010, 08:33:29 PM »
Nuh-uh, Bush had the ring! I saw the pictures!

I refuse to take P&R seriously this evening.

Offline Hunter

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2010, 08:42:00 PM »
It's not surprising to see that conservatives are still being treated with the usual dosages of contempt and ridicule.   Which is why I usually stay away from this forum.

I mean, after all, you wouldn't want to ADMIT that the other side had a brain or anything.  Or were capable of doing their decision making.

Offline Caeli

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2010, 08:48:48 PM »
I'm sure that liberals enjoy the same amount of contempt and ridicule from the other side.

You are, of course, entirely welcome to refute the statements presented by the video.

Offline Serephino

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2010, 09:53:33 PM »
Compromise would be good.  I have noticed that it's Democrats vs. Republicans, with both parties fighting the other tooth and nail.  I'm just a little more disgusted with Republicans at the moment because the attack ads from them link all Democratic candidates with Obama and Pelosi.  Then they say that those two are responsible for the bailouts, which as that video stated, Bush passed the first one; the one where most of it ended up being given away as bonuses. 

They also blame the national debt on Obama, which is bullshit.  Again, Bush spent all that money in Iraq, I think.  He never really told anyone where all that money went.  Obama is trying to fix it, it's just not easy.  This is going to take a lot of time and everyone setting aside personal agendas. 

I also agree with Jude that populism is largely to blame.  Everything wasn't fixed overnight as expected, so now Democrats are worthless.  Then when Republicans get back power and they don't fix anything either, in fact, they may make it worse, public opinion will swing the other way.  We'll just keep going back and forth until everything collapses in my opinion.   

Offline Jude

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2010, 10:47:27 PM »
I think when Republicans get back in power things actually will improve.  Not because of anything they actually do, of course, but because of the change of perception by business (which is currently holding on to about a trillion in capital waiting for a good time to spend it -- aka when Republicans are in charge again so that they feel more "secure").
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 10:49:14 PM by Jude »

Online itsbeenfun2000

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010, 11:41:24 PM »
i think i have said this before on here. i never left the republican party it left me. would be nice to go back to the one that actually cared about the majority of citizens in this country

Offline Noelle

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 01:19:17 AM »
It's not surprising to see that conservatives are still being treated with the usual dosages of contempt and ridicule.   Which is why I usually stay away from this forum.

I mean, after all, you wouldn't want to ADMIT that the other side had a brain or anything.  Or were capable of doing their decision making.

Then instead of making reactionary posts, perhaps you could make your case known in a thoughtful manner that we can actually discuss intelligently instead of making a post dripping with your own brand of contempt and ridicule.

That being said, the people of E are largely liberal just based on the demographics they tend to fall into -- it shouldn't surprise you that a forum that openly accepts the GLBT community among other things would happen to slant in that direction, but since you "stay away from this forum", you probably wouldn't realize that there are individuals with more conservative ideas here who come to debate and though their opinions might not be popular (I know a few of my own haven't been particularly liked), they are openly discussed and moderated for civility like any other thread.

Nobody's saying that "the other side" doesn't have a brain. If your facts are wrong, they're wrong. If your perception is skewed, it's skewed. If you don't like what this video has to say in terms of the Tea Party, then let's talk about it.

Offline Brandon

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 04:13:20 AM »
The posted video is whats saying "the other side" or rather the tea party doesnt have a brain, not elliquiy. I find myself quite disappointed by the video for many reasons. For example, rather then talk about the issues that the tea party actually stand for and address they go on to the ignorance that is precieved in the tea party and amplifies it to astonishing levels. I know its supposed to be a parody but they could have done an out take to actually talk about the tea party's beliefs. As is, it kind of just feels like its there to demonize them

Dont get me wrong here, Im sure there are some poeple like that in all parties. However tea party people I have spoken with have mostly been down to earth individuals with strong beliefs that lean toward the conservative side. As I understand it, some of the major things they believe in is no new taxes, reduced government spending, smaller federal government, greater budget balancing, and term limits. I have not heard a tea party supporter even address some of the issues in that video like gay marriage, abortion, or border security though I would be interested in hearing what their official stance is.

Personally I have many points of view, some progressive and some conservative, so I am an independant and likely always will be. This kind of video does not do anything for me because my research into candidates is what decides my vote. However its a shame that I almost always feel like Im picking the lesser of evils instead of the right person for the job
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:41:41 PM by Brandon »

Offline Vekseid

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2010, 04:31:43 AM »
The only federal programs that make up a significant portion of the budget are
1) Medicare
2) Social Security
3) Defense

The smaller federal government angle is no less nonsensical, honestly, as tea partiers tend to support those programs. The only one of those that is out of control is Medicare, which could have been handled in a far superior manner if Republicans had made genuine principled stands - but they didn't.

All the stimulus did was replace the collapse in state and local spending. It should have been a lot larger, with more directed at small businesses and local banks, rather than the drip we got.

Offline Noelle

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2010, 05:19:57 AM »
Brandon, the Tea Party wasn't originally intended to lobby for specific social issues -- even the original founder claims that the Tea Party as it stands now is a joke. They were initially aiming for relative nonpartisan status, but it was quickly hijacked by mostly Republicans looking to ride the wave and bank on dissatisfied Americans.

As for my extended view on the video, it was ironically spot-on to most of the conservatives/Tea Party members I've spoken to lately. Maybe it's not representative of the more civilized, well-spoken members, but unfortunately the loudest are often given the greatest press, whether or not they're the majority. I'd say this video probably addresses the majority of outsiders' encounters with the Teabaggers as they stand today.

Offline Brandon

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 05:33:46 AM »
Interesting. I had no idea what the history of the tea party was but I have seen a lot of demonizing going on by mainly the democrats and Ive often wondered why beyond the fact that theyre a group of different political beliefs. Thats another conversation though

Although an interesting thought I know have is: Why do I always find the intelligent and well spoken individuals of groups like this?

Offline Vekseid

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 05:57:12 AM »
People as individuals are personable and reasonable, for the most part. Most people are not confrontational by nature. Put them in a group and that changes, especially the more authoritarian ones.

Also, since you share many of their values, they aren't going to seem as absurd to you as they would to some of us.

Offline dominomask

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2010, 10:47:31 AM »
Interesting. I had no idea what the history of the tea party was but I have seen a lot of demonizing going on by mainly the democrats and Ive often wondered why beyond the fact that theyre a group of different political beliefs. Thats another conversation though

Although an interesting thought I know have is: Why do I always find the intelligent and well spoken individuals of groups like this?

The short version of what I'm going on about: There'a a lot of straw-man in that video. (Feel free to dodge the word-hose)

When a person begins describing the members of a group with which they disagree, they are likely to describe the least coherent, sane, attractive, and socially "ept" members of that group.  When defending a group that they approve of, they are likely to point to the members that are the MOST sane, coherent, attractive, and socially "ept".  News organizations, in an attempt to be inflammatory/interesting (all I want for christmas is that was stop conflating the two...) tend to focus on the same extremes, depending on whatever editorial point they are, either overtly or covertly, trying to make.  Then something alchemizes in our minds, and that attractive or unattractive person becomes the platonic ideal of all members of that group, so if you meet an unattractive member of a group you identify with, you are likely to excuse or dismiss them, while attractive members of opposing groups are misguided or antichrist/hitler-esque charming liars.

There are intelligent, funny, charming, well-groomed, well-meaning, educated and/or folksy people in every organization, because humans are complex creatures.  There are also reactionary, boorish, mis-informed, malicious, stupid, ugly people in every organization, because humans are complex creatures (think for a minute about the last fan or business convention you attended...yeah...even united fronts are mixed bags, and not every front is all that united).  This is why it's important to have arguments with your head and not your heart...look at their arguments and your own based on principles of logic and with an eye towards common logical fallacies and historical example rather than the number of teeth in someone's upper bridge.

I am very liberal, but I'm married to a conservative, and it works because we respect each other and don't treat our ideals with the unreasoning "rah rah" that should be reserved for sports teams.  I am pro-environment, but I have to admit that there are a lot of environmentalists that I would be embarrassed to be associated with.  My husband feels the same way about a lot of conservatives.  We were both kind of excited in the early days of the tea party, hoping that it marked a change back toward secular republicans and constitutional libertarians...we're not all that excited anymore. :/

I find the vast majority of the tea party arguments I've heard from people who claim membership in that group poorly reasoned and incoherent, and it seems reasonable to me that the group is mostly attractive to people wanting to vent their spleens and take a break from complexity, and I find their selection of candidates...baffling.  But I'm only hearing the most sensationalized members, and those who seem to be going out of their way to be sensational for the sake of attention, which is not an unusual tactic for a third party trying to break into politics.  It's insufficient reason to assume that all tea-partiers are ignorant, mindless bigots, but they're certainly failing to "sell" me on their ideas.


Offline Serephino

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2010, 08:55:02 PM »
I think the average Tea Party member means well, but as it's been said, those that scream the loudest get the most attention.  It's the leaders who are extremist fubar fucktards; like Sarah Pailin for instance...  And for some unfathomable reason the average member is swallowing the crap they're being told without question.

Christine O'Donnell has been in the news quite a lot, and there was even something I saw on TV that was a recording of her asking where the separation of church and state is in the Constitution.  That just baffles me.  Then there was another one who claimed that Planned Parenthood was run by witches who drink the blood of innocent unborn babies.  *is scared*
   

Offline Noelle

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 09:52:02 PM »
Well, fortunately O'Donnell got royally destroyed in the polls, so masturbators in the state of Delaware can wank easy!

I think the Tea Party has probably wandered down a path of no return. They're really no different than Republicans now, and most are just hoping it'll end up being another Green Party situation where vote-snatching ruins their chances during select years. It's kind of a shame they didn't retain their original intent and instead got bombed into the ground by uber-conservatives just looking for another outlet to vent their frustrations about gays and dead babies.

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2010, 10:29:46 PM »
The posted video is whats saying "the other side" or rather the tea party doesnt have a brain, not elliquiy. I find myself quite disappointed by the video for many reasons. For example, rather then talk about the issues that the tea party actually stand for and address they go on to the ignorance that is precieved in the tea party and amplifies it to astonishing levels. I know its supposed to be a parody but they could have done an out take to actually talk about the tea party's beliefs. As is, it kind of just feels like its there to demonize them

Precisely. The video's purpose is only to make liberals feel better about themselves. It is a parody indeed, a parody on what people who identify themselves as Tea-Party people are, or rather what liberals like to fool themselves (and others) into believing. The last laugh will be on them.

If one was truly and genuinely compassionate, they would realize the limits of government to protect us from ourselves. Keeping a caged bird fed and fattened is far more insidious than letting it free, even on the risk of failure, injury or death.

Offline Noelle

Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2010, 10:43:58 PM »
It's obviously biased, yes -- it's not a video made to be a serious educational tool, so it shouldn't be treated as such. However, realize that parody has to start from real life. The Tea Party, as we have seen, had a much different beginning than the places that Republicans in Tea Party clothing have taken it.

Ultimately, nobody will have the "last laugh" because the truth is, nobody's party ever stays in power forever. Politicians and citizens alike need to stop pretending that they're "taking back America" or that their party is the only one who should ever be in a position of power or that they have every single solution and right answer. Many legislate with this exact delusion -- and that's where we start playing legal back-and-forth with party after party overturning (or attempting to overturn) bills, because we don't (often) try for staying power in a bill, we play posturing games and pretend the other side doesn't matter even though inevitably, they will take your position someday.

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Re: Tea Party Arguments Summed Up
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2010, 03:02:07 AM »
This might be out of place, here, but with Noelle's comment on the back-and-forth nature of the US government, and the recent election results, I thought this might be the right place to post it.

The Senate is unchanged, but the House is in Republican hands.  And I can just hear the voices saying, "okay, now we're gonna get things done!"  And it's not wrong to think that - this is a prime opportunity for things to get turned around, and for the moderates, which this country needs right now far more than any radical, to help this country out of the hole it's in.

Problem is, I'm already starting to see the seeds of discontent and of a certain mentality foment.  In a BBC news article, it said that the new House Speaker had been quoted as this election sending a signal to Obama to "change course."

And I'm just worried, really worried, that between this and the leftover hurt feelings about Obamacare (and let's not kid ourselves about it, really), that the House is just going to sit there and block most of what Obama tries to do so that in a couple of years, when the next election comes around...