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Author Topic: A mosque near Ground Zero?  (Read 7376 times)

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Offline Hemingway

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2010, 04:28:16 PM »
Jude did say it very well. I only disagree in that this seems like a good idea to me, as I already stated.

Offline TheScarletBlade

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2010, 04:51:43 PM »
@crimson Scarlet (sorry): You are sounding like an extremist, yourself. "If you're not with us, you're against us"? You sound like an impressionable 20-year-old fresh out of an overseas tour, spouting hyperbole, absolutism and ultimatums he learned from Basic. Please, calm down, take a step back, and debate intellectually, not emotionally. That is what this forum is for, and what this thread is for.

First off, United States Marine Corps Basic training doesn't train absolutism and ultimatums into your head and to infer it does is plainly an insult to a fine institution that has been around almost as long as America has been.

As for being an impressionable 20 year old, if being 22 makes me thus then I guess I am but since I joined the military when I was 17 I have done 4 overseas tours and not only just to the middle east but all over Asia as well, I have seen more in 5 years than some people will ever see in their entire lives.

I have seen the ugly side of things, the horrible things done by these people, things sitting in your house, on your couch watching TV that you could not fathom: like for example a little girl with her arm chopped off as retribution to her father for telling us where an IED was.  Ignorant people say there is no reason to fight the war, that there is no reason to fear anymore that the fight is done and it was that sort of complacency that got us attacked in the first place.

Like it or not, this is a war and in war you have to take sides and if by being Patriotic makes me an extremist than I guess I am an Extremist and I am proud to be.

Offline Ket

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2010, 04:59:29 PM »
This thread is not about a war. This thread is about a mosque/Islamic community center being built near ground zero.

TheScarletBlade - you came into this thread and immediately took the extreme position that all Muslims are bad, without providing any supporting evidence other than your own anecdotes. You were asked politely by the OP to to take a step back and re-look at your arguments, which you have not. Please do so now, and take a look at the Logical Fallacies thread, then come back and debate the main topic when you have proven research to back your argument up.

Offline Jude

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2010, 05:03:11 PM »
First of all Scarlet, thank you for your service.

Please remember, however, that just because you've seen a lot of terrible things, that doesn't mean necessarily that you were getting an accurate depiction of the world at large.  The military is sent to the worst places by virtue of its purpose.  Individual examples only serve as proof of the existence of a particular problem, it does not speak to the prevalence of that problem.  Only carefully gathered statistics can speak of trends, which lead to greater judgments.

We don't doubt the existence of extremists or that there is evil in the world, which your experiences prove, we doubt how pervasive such things are.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 05:04:45 PM by Jude »

Online Valerian

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2010, 05:04:52 PM »
If the situation was reversed, yes I would have a problem with it. The organization that has proposed the center is a group called "Cordoba Initiative". If you enjoy history, Cordoba is a city in Andalusia southern Spain. It was conquered by the Moors and occupied during the middle ages. The name Cordoba is a name which continues to represent a symbol of Islamic conquest for Muslims all over the world.
Using Wikipedia as a source is generally not considered a good idea.

Cordoba was also, during the Andalusian Umayyad dynasty (756 AD to 1031 AD), one of the few places anywhere in the world at that time where Muslims, Christians, and Jews all got along quite peacefully.  No, there wasn't anything like true religious freedom as we think of it today, but like most cities dating back to the time of the Romans (it was founded in 152 BCE), it has an incredibly rich and complex history.  It's been the center of many different countries, empires, and cultures, and was a focus for learning as well as a religious center -- for, incidentally, Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam.

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2010, 05:57:03 PM »
First off, United States Marine Corps Basic training doesn't train absolutism and ultimatums into your head and to infer it does is plainly an insult to a fine institution that has been around almost as long as America has been.

Of course it does; you're either a soldier, or you're a civvie. You're either One of Us, or you're not. The Marines were founded around the same time as the Declaration of Independence was written to defend against Britain, to throw off oppressors, and to make sure our land stays our land. I wonder if the first Marines owned slaves? The Marines have evolved with the times, just like every other thing that has been around since then. It has to, in order to endure. Saying that the Marines have taken up modern methods of training - which, yes, includes indoctrination and absolutism, since there is no grey area between obeying orders and not obeying orders - is not an insult to them. It's a nod to progress and modernization.

If you want to debate about the military's training tactics, please make another thread, thank you.

As for being an impressionable 20 year old, if being 22 makes me thus then I guess I am but since I joined the military when I was 17 I have done 4 overseas tours and not only just to the middle east but all over Asia as well, I have seen more in 5 years than some people will ever see in their entire lives.

I didn't say you are an impressionable 20 year old; I said you're sounding like one. Please note the difference, and ponder accordingly. I don't care about your personal details; they're not particularly relevant to whether a mosque should be built in NYC.

I have seen the ugly side of things, the horrible things done by these people, things sitting in your house, on your couch watching TV that you could not fathom: like for example a little girl with her arm chopped off as retribution to her father for telling us where an IED was.  Ignorant people say there is no reason to fight the war, that there is no reason to fear anymore that the fight is done and it was that sort of complacency that got us attacked in the first place.

I'm sorry you've seen those things, but they were not done by Americans, and they were not done in the US of A. Just because they are Muslims (or... claim to be) does not mean they are anything like Arab-Americans.

... and I don't own a TV; please watch your personal assumptions.

Like it or not, this is a war and in war you have to take sides and if by being Patriotic makes me an extremist than I guess I am an Extremist and I am proud to be.

There has not been a war on US soil since the Civil War. This is not war, this is New York City. I also said you sound like an extremist. I thought you hated extremists? Whatever the case, the debate about 'extremism' and its many uses also belongs in another thread.



At the fundamental level, I find it abhorrent that Americans are preventing other Americans from using their property as they see fit. It's like a rehash of the Homeowner's Association thread, only the HOA is overreaching. These people - Americans - who are slinging insults at the Americans wanting to build a place of worship on land they already own is what sticks in my craw. If you can't accept that every single person you meet is a human with human needs and human foibles, I would hope that you could at least accept that the people you're calling terrorists are fellow Americans with American needs and American foibles.

Whatever that means. I don't know that there is any homogenation in the melting pot, or ever was.

Offline Brandon

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2010, 06:31:34 PM »
Fair warning, I didnt read anything except Trieste's original post. I will later but I want to put my first thoughts down

I dont see any reason why a mosque couldnt or shouldnt be there. The freedom of religion is important to everyones lives and needs to be respected and allowed to go on.

I would argue that the preserved site itself is more of a "monument to terror" then a religious building or site of any kind ever could be.

Really if this were a church for Christians/catholics, a shrine for hindu's, a Synogogue for the Jewish faith (can I say Jews or is that an insult to them?), or some kind of outdoor area of Wiccans, pagons, or other nature worshiping religions I think there would be zero controversy. This of course means that some people are still afraid of what Muslims did in the past and are applying a guilt by association policy. On the other hand, other people are using it for political gain in some way as they try to appeal to that fear of the next attack. Both of those groups of people are wrong. Fear makes us do strange and terrible things but we should never let it get int he way of our or other peoples freedom

Offline Oniya

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2010, 06:58:48 PM »
Quote from: Qu'ran XLIX:13
O mankind!  We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another.  Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of God, is the best in conduct.  God is All-Knower, All-Aware.

Quote from: John 13:35
By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Quote from: Lev. 19:18
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.

Three different holy books.  One Muslim, one Christian, one Jewish.  Somewhere in each of them is the sentiment that the best thing to do is to be nice to one another.  Perhaps such statements should be put up in a very conspicuous place as a true effort towards peace.

Offline Zakharra

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2010, 07:06:43 PM »
 Unfortunately, a lot of muslims can point to passages that call for them to kill the infidel and too many of them act on that.  Not most, but enough of them do act on what they see as God's will.

 Putting a mosque that close to the WTC ruins, might be intended to be a gesture of reconciliation, but it's very likely to be taken wrong. 9-11 was a very emotional day for the US and many people on both sides won't think rationally at a mosque/muslim YMCA place being built so near the WTC. Basically, it's a bad idea.

Offline Synecdoche17

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2010, 07:15:45 PM »
I have seen the ugly side of things, the horrible things done by these people, things sitting in your house, on your couch watching TV that you could not fathom: like for example a little girl with her arm chopped off as retribution to her father for telling us where an IED was.

So, assuming this incident took place in Afghanistan, what you're saying is that some Muslims overseas do want to help American troops in their country?

There are between one and seven million Muslims in the United States, depending on whom you ask. If out of this huge population you can produce a handful of terrorists, that still makes the Muslim population in the United States a model of good behavior.

Being a U.S. Marine gives you a good perspective on the war in Afghanistan, but the Muslims in Afghanistan are not the Muslims in America. Don't confuse the start-up entrepreneur in Silicon Valley or the cabbie in New York for the drug smuggler in Marjah.

@Zakharra - Christians can also point to passages like that, yet somehow I and many other devout Christians refrain from murdering, while Christians in other parts of the world do not (such as the crazy narco-cults in Mexico).

Offline Oniya

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2010, 07:23:10 PM »
I'm just saying that maybe it might be time to start pointing at those passages like the ones I quoted.  I doubt that many non-Muslims know that that the Qur'an even contains messages of peace.  Those that do would be the inquisitive folks who choose to read and listen to things outside the knee-jerk reactions that the pundits so love to exploit.

Believe what you want, but believe it because you believe it, and not because someone in a funny outfit tells you that you should.

Offline Kurzyk

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2010, 07:46:40 PM »
NY is my home town, manhattan particularly so I've kept a keen interest in this topic. It offends me when I see people angry at the idea of a mosque being built in the vicinity. It's ignorant and hypocritical.

I don't see anything wrong with it because quite simply, it was people that attacked the towers, not Islam.


Offline Jude

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2010, 08:03:27 PM »
Unfortunately, a lot of muslims can point to passages that call for them to kill the infidel and too many of them act on that.  Not most, but enough of them do act on what they see as God's will.

 Putting a mosque that close to the WTC ruins, might be intended to be a gesture of reconciliation, but it's very likely to be taken wrong. 9-11 was a very emotional day for the US and many people on both sides won't think rationally at a mosque/muslim YMCA place being built so near the WTC. Basically, it's a bad idea.
And you can point to bible passages that encourage stoning disobedient sons; does that mean we shouldn't build churches near preschools?

Offline Brandon

Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2010, 08:45:57 PM »
First off, United States Marine Corps Basic training doesn't train absolutism and ultimatums into your head and to infer it does is plainly an insult to a fine institution that has been around almost as long as America has been.

As for being an impressionable 20 year old, if being 22 makes me thus then I guess I am but since I joined the military when I was 17 I have done 4 overseas tours and not only just to the middle east but all over Asia as well, I have seen more in 5 years than some people will ever see in their entire lives.

I have seen the ugly side of things, the horrible things done by these people, things sitting in your house, on your couch watching TV that you could not fathom: like for example a little girl with her arm chopped off as retribution to her father for telling us where an IED was.  Ignorant people say there is no reason to fight the war, that there is no reason to fear anymore that the fight is done and it was that sort of complacency that got us attacked in the first place.

Like it or not, this is a war and in war you have to take sides and if by being Patriotic makes me an extremist than I guess I am an Extremist and I am proud to be.

I feel that I need to step in here. Before I start I want to say thank you for your service, in my opinion you a hero among Americans. You have been since you swore the oath you will continue to be till you decide to hang up your uniform.

Now I was a soldier myself but I was in the Army, not a marine. Was being the appropriate word, I got tired of fighting for a country that no longer appreciated my skills, activly discriminated against me because of my job, and lastly they just wouldnt pay me what I could make in my current job which also puts my militaristic skills to use and still allows me to serve the people. Out of my six years of service I was deployed once to Bosnia with SFOR6 which was a peace keeping operation and twice to Iraq. When I decided to ETS I was a Sergent (E5 on the paygrade scale) and I was being considered for promotion to E6 which normally takes 8-9 years

Its true that we have both seen some terrible things, likely mankind at its absolute worst but as we are both Americans we have seen people at their absolute best too (this would also apply if we were from some of the more modern australian areas, European countries, or Japan). We fight, or fought in my case, for the freedom of our country, to protect it from foreign and domestic enemies. In my opinion, if we stand against the freedom to worship, one of the rights of all Americans, then we become corrupt.

Now let me ask, do you think its worth it to rob Americans of a freedom we all enjoy because of some emotional attachment to the past?


Offline Host of Seraphim

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2010, 09:51:07 PM »
it was people that attacked the towers, not Islam.

This.

Offline TheScarletBlade

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2010, 09:56:03 PM »
@Brandon- So I guess my question to you is, how do you fight for a country that doesn't appreciate what you do or what you stand for?

@Everyone Else- I seem to have strayed a little off topic in a defense of what I believe and I apologize for any sort of misunderstanding that might have caused.

What I have been trying to say and I guess took me a while to figure out how to put in words is: Think about all the blood of those innocent people on that sacred ground, 9/11 is not just a tragedy but now its a symbol of American strength and unity, the foundation for a new kind of patriotism that everyone felt when we everyone stood together, resolved to stand against anyone who threatens us and to allow such a place, such hallowed ground to be used to put a mosque or any religious building for that matter, just doesn't seem right.

Plus, when we took down the statue of Sadam in Baghdad in 03, we didn't build a church there.

Offline Oniya

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2010, 10:01:02 PM »
Think about all the blood of those innocent people on that sacred ground, 9/11 is not just a tragedy but now its a symbol of American strength and unity, the foundation for a new kind of patriotism that everyone felt when we everyone stood together, resolved to stand against anyone who threatens us and to allow such a place, such hallowed ground to be used to put a mosque or any religious building for that matter, just doesn't seem right.

One thing that's been pointed out is that the mosque is a few blocks away from Ground Zero. 

Did a little research and this map should depict the location.  If the link works right.

That being said, I would hope that 'Freedom Plaza' (I think that's what they're calling the new construction) would have a multicultural message in its unity.

Plus, when we took down the statue of Sadam in Baghdad in 03, we didn't build a church there.

It wasn't our country to do so.  The group that wants to put the mosque in is composed of American citizens.  Now, if a group of Shiite or Sunni decided to put something up in place of the statue of Saddam - would that be a bad thing?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 10:08:41 PM by Oniya »

Offline zoarster

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2010, 10:25:35 PM »
A couple of points, which may be a bit disjointed:

1) The situation gives us a unique moment to step back and think about what we mean by the terms we use today. What is it to call something "Ground Zero"? That particular phrase, the cadence of it, will of course reference another moment in the course of human history, the moment of the atom bomb.

"Ground Zero," the moment of first impact, the single point from which all other destruction emanates. It has been remarked that terror, the element which makes the 9/11 attacks truly monumental, is not a function of the attacks' relation to the past or present, but to the future, that which is to come. And so long as we remain paralyzed by fear in the light of that which is to come, we remain fundamentally scarred, we allow the repercussions from that single impact to spread beyond "Ground Zero" and through not only the space of two blocks, but the time and cultural fabric of the world.

To remain hateful, which is only a magnification of fearful, fearful to the point where snap judgments become the norm, assumptions become fact, only re-perpetrates, re-perpetuates, the shockwaves of "Ground Zero." It is perhaps understandable that we, that is to say not only America but also the "civilized world" (to use a turn of phrase, not to agree with it), do sometimes renew that fear. But to enter into a squabble such as this over the simple terrain near the site where the attacks happened--something that is linked to but altogether separate from the attacks themselves--is a sign that "Ground Zero" is not just a site, not just an event in history, but an event in the present--the shockwaves, and the damage of hate, continues. The opponent's weapon, so to speak, continues to detonate... a sign that the greater opponent, that is not to say al-Qa'ida or even terrorists, but terror itself, is winning...?

2) The situation calls to mind another event linked to my family's own experience. I am a Japanese-American, born and raised in Hawai'i. The entirety of my grandparents' generation lived in Hawaii during World War II, and my great uncle fought a fight not unlike the one that is being fought by the Muslims who are trying to build this community center. During the war, Congress and FDR passed laws making it illegal for groups of Japanese-Americans (over 5 I believe) to gather in one place. This meant, in short, that the community centers for the Japanese in Hawaii had to be closed. My uncle, with the help of wealthy plantation owners, who were white, re-purposed the community center as one for the neighborhood rather than Japanese-Americans. To this day, that community center maintains a Japanese-American "flavor," but is (as it was even before the war) open to all races and nationalities.

While my great uncle fought legally to save the community center, his twin brother and one of my other great uncles were in Europe, fighting for the U.S. against the Nazis because they were not allowed to fight in the Pacific theater. There, they undertook some of the most dangerous missions and survived against the most deadly odds.

Finally, my great aunt served with the Swiss consulate, bringing comfort, care packages, and letters to Japanese-Americans who were interned by our government.

I do not think that, by any stretch of the imagination, any of these actions was unpatriotic. Yet by Scarlet's categorization of people by a simple label--whether it be Japanese or Muslim--these heroic individuals would have been considered enemies. And in WWII, it might have been a more honest and accurate characterization to say that 80% of Japanese in the world hated America, or at least considered it an enemy.

So to Scarlet, I applaud your service, just as I applaud the service of those men--white, black, Japanese, or otherwise--with whom my great uncles served. At the same time, though, I caution you against drawing absolutes. I realize this is hard, especially with events like the Ft. Hood shooting where the threat truly did come from within. But at the same time, as not only I and some of the other forum posters here have said, but also as our Commander-in-Chief and his predecessor have said, this is not a war against Islam; it is a war for the hearts and minds of the Islamic world. To block their right to congregate (as stipulated in the First Amendment) on land which, as has been pointed out, they own, is to have failed to learn the lessons for which my ancestors--and your ancestors, assuming your family has been American since WWII--paid such a high price.

Now if you believe, as you have said more recently (sorry, started typing before you posted), that no religious building should be built there, if it should be reserved as part of a two-block sacred space of some sort, that could be fine--but the government that mandates such should be prepared to provide the Islamic center with another comparable space to meet and worship.

Online Serephino

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2010, 10:45:35 PM »
I don't think forgiveness needs to be given, because Muslims as a whole didn't do anything wrong.  What about this was done by a group of extremists to people not get?  Has anyone who hates them actually studied the religion?  It's a good idea to know what you're talking about before forming an opinion on something. 

People don't generally look at the Westboro Church and Sarah Pailin and think all Christians are that fucked in the head.  There are nuts in every tree, and they must be dealt with accordingly. 

As for what is going on in Afghanistan, well, it's a crappy situation.  When you have nothing, then there's nothing to lose.  That makes for a lot of tension and people doing things they wouldn't normally do.  Al-Queda tells these men that if they pick up a gun and fight for the cause then not only will they be rewarded in the afterlife, but their families will be taken care of.  I'm not saying that makes it okay, but this is how they recruit.  It's obviously working. 

Also, by lashing out like this, aren't we kind of proving these extremists right?  They are saying that we threaten their way of life and want to destroy them.  Well, we kind of do...  It's kind of hard to convince a group of people that you're really not the bad guy when you're invading their country and telling them how to live.  We're bound and determined to get them to live like us with a Democratic society and equal rights for women and what not.  Those aren't bad things, I just don't think it's right to completely disregard their culture and the way they lived for thousands of years and force our ideals on them.  They won't go for it unless they want it.   

I don't see a problem with the Mosque.  If it's on private property than no one really has a right to say shit as long as all city laws and codes are followed.  Freedom of Religion means freedom for ALL religion, not just Christians.  I can't claim to know their reasoning, but maybe something  good will come of it. 

Offline Brandon

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2010, 10:48:33 PM »
@Brandon- So I guess my question to you is, how do you fight for a country that doesn't appreciate what you do or what you stand for?

Thats a personal decision. For me I quit, I did stay to fulfill my contract and money played a part in the decision too but that was what was right for me. BTW there is no right or wrong answer to my previous question, I just wanted to know what you thought.

Quote from:  Serephino
People don't generally look at the Westboro Church and Sarah Pailin and think all Christians are that fucked in the head.  There are nuts in every tree, and they must be dealt with accordingly.
Around here they do  :P

Offline Noelle

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2010, 10:59:15 PM »
Unfortunately, a lot of muslims can point to passages that call for them to kill the infidel and too many of them act on that.  Not most, but enough of them do act on what they see as God's will.

The passages of the Qur'an, at least the ones I am aware of, are not terribly clear about their intent. They seem peaceful enough, but I suppose you can always make of it what you want to see -- if you're hellbent on being violent, you can make anything suit your aims. For example:

O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into Fire, and that is very easy for Allah. (4:29-30)

[]And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This he hath commanded you, in order that ye may discern. (6:152)


But hey, here's my two cents.

I think many of us are confusing the war we're at with a crusade (not so coincidentally the sister word of 'jihad' in some senses, but we'll get to that). And by 'us', I don't just mean the immediate members of this thread who are participating in discussion, but I think 'us' is more like the entire nation. By turning it into a crusade, it's turning America into a Christian body acting on the behalf of Christianity -- we might even call ourselves the Pope's army or something ;P But we're not. We're not fighting for Christianity because that was not a terrorist attack on Christians; it was an attack on Americans. That's about all anyone who was killed/injured/affected had in common. Similarly, the attack did not come from Islam itself. It came from a very remote group of crazies -- probably Wahhabis; yes, much as Christianity has their own group of fundamentalist whackjobs, so too does Islam. There is not just one universal group that falls under the umbrella term "Muslim", much as there are philosophical differences between branches of Christianity. The More You Know, right?

Wahhabists are striving for a purer form of Islam, free from Western influences, which they see as wicked. They want to literally dismantle Western civilization in order to convert the infidels. But what most fail to see as well is that they're also equally oppressive assholes towards their fellow Muslims. They believe every other branch inferior, show hatred and animosity towards other sects, and any deviance from their belief is grounds for jihad (which, I might add, typically means a spiritual war or struggle against -- yes -- spiritual evils, not literal 'evils' such as America, and is usually seen as an optional pillar of Islam). I suppose if you're crazy enough to think your ideas are the only right ones and everything else should be squashed and made into a clone of yours, then pretty soon everyone else becomes your enemy...which is funny if you think about it in terms of American ideals :)

The real heart of my opinion is this. It's a mosque. A mosque doesn't churn out extremist Wahhabi-branch practitioners any more than a church pumps out fag-hating, funeral-protesting, inbred Baptists, and if there were some legit way to prove this besides baseless fearmongering and parroting of overused, so-called "patriotic" psychobabble, I would probably think differently. And now for a true fact: Wahhabist Muslims are typically uneducated, impoverished people. If ignorance breeds hate and fear, then what does that say about us?

Offline NicciKotor

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2010, 02:18:07 AM »
John Stewart said it best, that the reasons why the extremist christian right hates this idea, is that they actually fear competition from other religions. Which is particularly amusing since you can be sure that these same individuals are also all for free market and how the markets will decide what is right or wrong. What is more free then allowing religious organizations to build their holy houses where ever they please and under reasonable restrictions?

They can only use appeal to emotions to stop this mosque from going up. They have the building, they are in the correct zoning, there is NO law restricting a place of worship from being X miles from ground zero. The law is not on their side, so appeals to nonsense is in order.

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2010, 02:49:20 AM »
I give it a month, maybe two before it's chain vandalized or burned.

Offline Zeitgeist

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2010, 06:47:20 AM »
Let me get this right, a group of Muslims fly fully fueled airplanes into our buildings, killing a large number of our people on our soil, and we are being asked to be tolerant and forgiving? Perhaps they, whoever they are should choose to demonstrate some tact and build their mosque and community center a more respectful distance away. Their religion and message can be expressed just as well elsewhere as within 2 blocks of the site.

Why are we the ones asked to forever bend, yield, and forgive? Perhaps once, they should be the ones who chose the better part of valor.

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #49 on: July 21, 2010, 07:00:07 AM »
Let me get this right, a group of Muslims fly fully fueled airplanes into our buildings, killing a large number of our people on our soil, and we are being asked to be tolerant and forgiving? Perhaps they, whoever they are should choose to demonstrate some tact and build their mosque and community center a more respectful distance away. Their religion and message can be expressed just as well elsewhere as within 2 blocks of the site.

So it can be used as a house of prayer - Muslim prayer - as long as it's not 'called' a mosque?

And what constitutes a respectful distance? I'll bet if you polled people, a 'respectful distance' would range from five blocks away to a mile away to not-in-the-city and I'm sure at least some people would answer that they should leave their religion behind when they immigrate and never build mosques in America. Who's correct, Zamdrist?

Why are we the ones asked to forever bend, yield, and forgive? Perhaps once, they should be the ones who chose the better part of valor.

Because forgiveness is divine and touted in many religions.