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Author Topic: A mosque near Ground Zero?  (Read 7390 times)

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Online Zeitgeist

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 07:25:34 AM »
So it can be used as a house of prayer - Muslim prayer - as long as it's not 'called' a mosque?

And what constitutes a respectful distance? I'll bet if you polled people, a 'respectful distance' would range from five blocks away to a mile away to not-in-the-city and I'm sure at least some people would answer that they should leave their religion behind when they immigrate and never build mosques in America. Who's correct, Zamdrist?

Then perhaps they should build right ON the site of the former towers, for that would surely show just how forgiving and gracious we are.

Because forgiveness is divine and touted in many religions.

I find it curious how a group of people here are so quick to pillory religiosity when it suits their narrative, come to its defense when it fits their specific world view. How is it we've come to a place where we bend over backwards to defend a religion that acquiescences such violence, and then turn our noses to Christianity. Yeah, yeah I know about the Crusades. That was quite awhile ago now, and perpetuated by Europeans, not Americans.

Offline Hemingway

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 07:38:45 AM »
Let me get this right, a group of Muslims fly fully fueled airplanes into our buildings, killing a large number of our people on our soil, and we are being asked to be tolerant and forgiving? Perhaps they, whoever they are should choose to demonstrate some tact and build their mosque and community center a more respectful distance away. Their religion and message can be expressed just as well elsewhere as within 2 blocks of the site.

Why are you speaking in terms of "us" and "them"? At the very least, there are three parties involved in this. There's "us" or "we", speaking of western, Christian-majority countries, roughly. But there's no "them", as in everyone else. The people who hijacked the planes and carried out the attacks are not the same people who want to build a mosque.

Quote
Why are we the ones asked to forever bend, yield, and forgive? Perhaps once, they should be the ones who chose the better part of valor.

Probably because it's pointless and dangerous to hold responsible the people who had nothing to do with it? Just like, you know, all westerners aren't trigged-happy Blackwater thugs?  I'm just saying. I mean, there's a difference between asking for forgiveness, and extending an olive branch to show that, hey, we're not all terrorist crazies.

Offline Brandon

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 07:46:23 AM »
The thing is, the people wanting to build the community center own the land, they dont own the land where ground zero is. Shouldnt they have the right to use that land however they wish as long as they follow the proper laws? The only thing I see standing in the way is emotional attachment to ground zero and fear.

Ill ask you the same question I asked earlier, do you think its worth it to rob Americans of a freedom we all enjoy because of some emotional attachment to the past?

Remember this isnt illegal immagrants moving in to do this, this is American muslims doing this.

Edit:
I find it curious how a group of people here are so quick to pillory religiosity when it suits their narrative, come to its defense when it fits their specific world view. How is it we've come to a place where we bend over backwards to defend a religion that acquiescences such violence, and then turn our noses to Christianity. Yeah, yeah I know about the Crusades. That was quite awhile ago now, and perpetuated by Europeans, not Americans.

BTW this also confuses me
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 07:48:54 AM by Brandon »

Offline Valerian

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 08:16:08 AM »
Then perhaps they should build right ON the site of the former towers, for that would surely show just how forgiving and gracious we are.
They probably don't own that exact piece of land.  That's a glib answer, of course, but there is a practical side to this issue as well.  How easy is it to buy land in that area?  If they want their community center (which happens to include a mosque) in that part of the city, they may not have any other real options as to where to build.  And in any case, if it can be another step towards healing and greater peace, then let them take that step.  Unfortunately, they're taking a far greater risk by gathering and worshipping there than we are by letting them build.

I find it curious how a group of people here are so quick to pillory religiosity when it suits their narrative, come to its defense when it fits their specific world view. How is it we've come to a place where we bend over backwards to defend a religion that acquiescences such violence, and then turn our noses to Christianity. Yeah, yeah I know about the Crusades. That was quite awhile ago now, and perpetuated by Europeans, not Americans.
As mentioned above, some branches of Islam condone violence, just as some branches of Christianity support bizarre protests, threats, and whatever else they get up to these days.  Painting all Muslims, everywhere in the world, with the same brush is as pointless as calling all Christians the same, or all U.S. citizens the same, all Canadians the same, etc.

I'm not a religious person myself, but I believe that forgiveness is a vital part of getting through life.  I don't push that as a religious agenda; it's my own personal belief.  Obviously I can't speak for others, but I'm defending the rights of this group to build what they wish, within the existing laws, because of my own personal moral code -- and I don't change that depending on which religion is being discussed.

What's the use of turning this into a bitter, unending, eye-for-an-eye feud, especially with people who almost certainly have no more in common with anyone involved in 9/11 than you have in common with a random member of the Westboro Baptists?

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2010, 09:40:56 AM »
Quote
Yeah, yeah I know about the Crusades. That was quite awhile ago now, and perpetuated by Europeans, not Americans.

Dude, the attack on the WTC was carried out by people who traveled to a different place to carry out a religious attack. They weren't natives, just like the Crusaders. I can understand "that was a long time ago" but not "that was different!"

I think people are also forgetting that extremists will kill other Muslims just as quickly as they will kill outsiders. In their minds, either the bystanding Muslims will be happy to die for God's cause, or they're weak and not real Muslins and it doesn't matter if they die.

This is why we call it extremism. It's taken to extremes, with no room for shades of grey. The coalition that wants to build the mosque/community center is not made up of extremists; they don't stand in the street proclaiming everyone else to be infidels. They don't hail the 13 hijackers as martyrs. They just want to exercise the right to practice their freedom of religion on their own land.

I can't see anything wrong with that. It's narrow-minded and short-sighted to assume that a community SO CLOSE to ground zero didn't suffer pain and loss just because they happen to share some semblance of religion with the attackers. Puh-lease.

And religion doesn't have a monopoly on the divine, despite what they like to tell you. Get with the multicultural times, boyo. ;P

Offline Nyarly

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 10:00:24 AM »
And religion doesn't have a monopoly on the divine, despite what they like to tell you. Get with the multicultural times, boyo. ;P
Wait, that confuses me. Doesn't religion have a monopoly on the divine? I mean, it's not so much that it has a monopoly, but whom does god(s) matter besides the religious?

Or do I just misunderstand something? Actually, I'm pretty sure that I do...

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2010, 10:03:52 AM »
Wait, that confuses me. Doesn't religion have a monopoly on the divine? I mean, it's not so much that it has a monopoly, but whom does god(s) matter besides the religious?

Or do I just misunderstand something? Actually, I'm pretty sure that I do...

I suppose it depends on whether you consider spirituality as dealing with the divine - which I do, and I'd be surprised if I were the only one. Do you really need to belong to a church to believe in God/the Gods/whatever? Not really.

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2010, 10:07:27 AM »
I suppose it depends on whether you consider spirituality as dealing with the divine - which I do, and I'd be surprised if I were the only one. Do you really need to belong to a church to believe in God/the Gods/whatever? Not really.

There were some as far back as the 1800s that didn't believe that the edifice of stone and glass, or even the communal worship was even necessary:

Quote
SOME keep the Sabbath going to church;   
I keep it staying at home,   
With a bobolink for a chorister,   
And an orchard for a dome.   

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2010, 10:53:01 AM »
Let me get this right, a group of Muslims fly fully fueled airplanes into our buildings, killing a large number of our people on our soil, and we are being asked to be tolerant and forgiving? Perhaps they, whoever they are should choose to demonstrate some tact and build their mosque and community center a more respectful distance away. Their religion and message can be expressed just as well elsewhere as within 2 blocks of the site.

Why are we the ones asked to forever bend, yield, and forgive? Perhaps once, they should be the ones who chose the better part of valor.

Because we KNOW better than the nutjobs that flew said planes into the towers.

I've known something like the better part of 200 or so Muslims in my time in the Navy. Most of them servicemen. I've talked to Muslims on four continents.

You know what? Most of them despise and fear the folks like the Talaban and Bin Laden's merry men. Because as much as these people want us dead, how ever much they do to us and ours.. The radicals do more to THEM.

Who do the Taliban oppress the most? Not you or me.

The individual tribesman who knows if he disagrees they will kill him, his wife or child. The businessman that speaks out.  The Iman who preaches tolerance. The man in the street who is trying to better himself and his family.

They are thugs, bullies and bandits. You're dealing with people who don't debate or discuss. They kill and oppress. They use us as the bad guys so that the people they REALLY oppress and hurt don't think about what they can do to fight back.

And historically guys.. We, the western world, have SERIOUSLY screwed the pooch on who we've helped out there.

Come on... how many problems have we've made or left behind after our 'mission complete' parade?

Let's see..

Saddam? We supported him.

The Shah of Iran? One of the nastiest most evil fuckers that ever lived.

The Taliban/Al Quadi?  WE TRAINED them to fight the Russians..then left them high and dry.


WE MADE THIS PROBLEM. We did. For nearly 60 years.

To fix it, we need to accept a few things.

1. These evil men are NOT the true face of the Islamic faith, but the most vocal ones.
2. We need to fix our fuck ups. That means build governments, make people in the region realize THEY can do something.
3. Help the few moderate groups out there to survive.
4. Accept that it took 60 years to get us in this whole and it's not getting fixed tomorrow (politician's promises aside) and if we don't fix it now.. Our children and grandchildren will pay the price. We inherited this mess, we made it worse but we don't have to pass it along.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 11:00:12 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline Jude

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2010, 12:52:02 PM »
I find it curious how a group of people here are so quick to pillory religiosity when it suits their narrative, come to its defense when it fits their specific world view. How is it we've come to a place where we bend over backwards to defend a religion that acquiescences such violence, and then turn our noses to Christianity. Yeah, yeah I know about the Crusades. That was quite awhile ago now, and perpetuated by Europeans, not Americans.
It's true that when you compare Christianity and Islam, Christianity is by far the more peaceful--but it didn't get that way over night.  The world gave Christianity a chance to moderate itself, and after many religious wars, a period where western civilization was enslaved by its ideology, and Christian resistance to progress, it finally toned down.  In the world today, Christianity is largely a force a good, as it was in the early 20th Century in the development of hospitals, international charity programs, et cetera.

Rather than starting a religious war between Christianity and Islam (which a lot of neo-cons and extremists seem to want to do), imagine all of the good that could come of making peace with Islam and helping it modernize, de-radicalize, and join the rest of the 21st century.  Remember, there was a time before the Crusades when Islam was an incredible religion of peace, tolerance, and learning.  Contact with the western world changed that, not that I hold today's westerners responsible for that, but if we could go back, wouldn't the world be a much better place?

The path to peace is not at the butt of a gun, and there is no better place for Islam to undergo a renaissance than the United States; problem is, we have to let that happen.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 12:53:38 PM by Jude »

Offline Noelle

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2010, 02:17:09 PM »
Actually, the book of Genesis is pretty much shared with Islam, as well as a number of figures within. Though Islam doesn't recognize Jesus as being "the son of god" (they don't like the idea of it; the Trinity is considered polytheism, a big no-no), both he AND Mary are given places of importance within. In fact, Islam more or less calls Jews and Christians "brothers of the book" or some similar moniker because they believe God passed them the 'true prophecies' first, but each branch perverted it in some way. Behold:

Quote
The Holy Qur'an 2:62 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

How utterly wicked of them, right? ;P

It's pretty easy to hate an entire group when you know nothing about them and are unwilling to consider you may have more in common than you think.

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2010, 02:59:38 PM »
Probably because it's pointless and dangerous to hold responsible the people who had nothing to do with it? Just like, you know, all westerners aren't trigged-happy Blackwater thugs?  I'm just saying. I mean, there's a difference between asking for forgiveness, and extending an olive branch to show that, hey, we're not all terrorist crazies.

I got turned down for a job because I'm  a single white male, in the name of diversity and because of laws and situations I played no part in and had nothing to do with.  Why am I being held responsible for history?

Offline Shoshana

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2010, 03:18:32 PM »
Fair warning, I didnt read anything except Trieste's original post. I will later but I want to put my first thoughts down

I dont see any reason why a mosque couldnt or shouldnt be there. The freedom of religion is important to everyones lives and needs to be respected and allowed to go on.

I would argue that the preserved site itself is more of a "monument to terror" then a religious building or site of any kind ever could be.

Really if this were a church for Christians/catholics, a shrine for hindu's, a Synogogue for the Jewish faith (can I say Jews or is that an insult to them?), or some kind of outdoor area of Wiccans, pagons, or other nature worshiping religions I think there would be zero controversy. This of course means that some people are still afraid of what Muslims did in the past and are applying a guilt by association policy. On the other hand, other people are using it for political gain in some way as they try to appeal to that fear of the next attack. Both of those groups of people are wrong. Fear makes us do strange and terrible things but we should never let it get int he way of our or other peoples freedom

I don't know if anyone answered your question about Jews, Brandon, so I will: yes, you can say Jews! I'm a Jew--I don't generally call myself a  "Jewish person." I've met many people who are afraid to use the term Jew or Jews, though, because they think it's somehow insulting. The reason they think this, unfortunately, is because antisemites use the term as an insult. But the term itself is no such thing.

Now to the main question: I live near Manhattan and I'm in the city often. I'm in favor of the proposed Muslim community center.  I would be in favor of it just on the principle of freedom of religion, but I'm also in favor of it because there were Muslims inside the towers that day and they died right along side everyone else, victims of the radicals and extremists who flew the planes and planned the terror.

Meanwhile, my main concern is the fact that Ground Zero is still a gaping hole--there's even still flattened, twisted wreckage glaring at us, serving as a constant, painful reminder of that day. A Muslim community center nearby is no problem--what is a problem is that we haven't put up a memorial and we haven't rebuilt the area! It's been nine years--what are we waiting for? Come on, this is the greatest city on earth (ok, that's arguably opinion instead of fact); we need to create a permanent memorial for all those we lost on that day and we need to rebuild Ground Zero. We can't leave it as it is. I'm not suggesting we ever forget what happened there--G-d forbid!--but the gaping hole needs to be filled and we need to build something new.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 03:20:11 PM by Shoshana »

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2010, 03:22:26 PM »
It's been nine years--what are we waiting for? Come on, this is the greatest city on earth (ok, that's arguably opinion instead of fact); we need to create a permanent memorial for all those we lost on that day and we need to rebuild Ground Zero.

You mean, like this?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_World_Trade_Center (picture dated 10 June, 2010)

Offline Shoshana

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2010, 03:29:13 PM »
I mean filling in the gaping hole! I don't know how to insert the picture, but just drive past the site on the West Side Highway, when you're on your way to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. Yeah, there's been some construction--thank G-d---but why no memorial and why, after nine years, is the hole still there? I understand how much controversy is involved in building anything on that site and maybe that's why everything is moving so slowly. But I think the time has come.

Just speaking for myself: I have to face the skyline bereft of the towers every day. I don't want to face the gaping hole too.

Offline Shoshana

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2010, 03:33:07 PM »
Ok, here's a summary of the rebuilding schedule I snatched from the Wiki's World Trade Center site. Maybe I'm just not being patient enough:

Quote from: Wikipedia
As of May 2010[update], progress on the construction of the redesigned site is as follows:

1 World Trade Center – Construction began in April 2006; two years later, tower-foundation steel columns, concrete, and rebar had been installed. In 2006, the Port Authority took over from Silverstein Properties as the project's developer. Tishman Construction Corporation is the construction manager.[50] The estimated completion date is 2013.
2 World Trade Center – Groundbreaking began in July 2008.[51]
3 World Trade Center – Groundbreaking began in March 2008. In April 2008, excavation and preparations for foundation work took place.[52]
4 World Trade Center – Construction began in 2008.[53]
5 World Trade Center – Construction began on January 1, 2009.[54] The Port Authority acts as the building's developer.[55]
7 World Trade Center – Off of Port Authority land, the tower opened on May 23, 2006 and achieved LEED gold status.[56]
National September 11 Memorial & Museum – Under construction. The memorial will include a museum and two square pools where the Twin Towers formerly stood. The memorial is on schedule for a September 11, 2011 opening.[57]
Performing arts center – Construction will begin after 2010 since a temporary exit from the PATH station will occupy the site until then.

Offline Jude

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2010, 03:42:01 PM »
I got turned down for a job because I'm  a single white male, in the name of diversity and because of laws and situations I played no part in and had nothing to do with.  Why am I being held responsible for history?
Might be off topic, but I'm curious as to how you knew that.  Did... uh, they come out and tell you?  How do you know they weren't just trying to spare your feelings if they did?

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2010, 03:48:18 PM »
So, they have a memorial planned, and it's presumably on schedule.  I suspect that any foot-dragging is due to contractor haggling and timing the completion to another '9/11'.

Offline Shoshana

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2010, 03:52:29 PM »
So, they have a memorial planned, and it's presumably on schedule.  I suspect that any foot-dragging is due to contractor haggling and timing the completion to another '9/11'.

Yup. So I just have to learn patience--a lesson which, I fear, doesn't come easy to me!

(I've also gotta get over my--I don't know what it is. Reluctance, I guess, to take the PATH train to the World Trade Center site. I used to use it all the time, but I haven't since the Sunday before the attack. I still take the PATH, but not to that site.)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 03:55:39 PM by Shoshana »

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2010, 03:53:59 PM »
Might be off topic, but I'm curious as to how you knew that.  Did... uh, they come out and tell you?  How do you know they weren't just trying to spare your feelings if they did?

Cause it was a security job at a hospital and my friend who told me there was an opening is on good terms with that location's head of security. I have a year of on the job experience and am working twords a criminal law degree. The other candidate that was hired on was fresh into the field. He was also black, but it meant they met thier diversity quota. *shrug* I imagine though I'll be discredited for not naming any of the parties involved and on the basis that straight white males can't be discriminated against.

As for relevance, it seems to be an established fact that any opposition that revolves around another's culture is fueled solely by racial bigotry and discrimination. Palestinians danced in the streets on the day of the tragic event that was 9/11 (as has been reported and reaffirmed to be true footage as shot by Reuters). And they're dominantly muslim over there. While it doesn't seem wrong within the limits of the law to put a mosque anywhere they damn well please, it does seem quite a bit insensitive to the issues surrounding that area. As was stated earlier, tragedies remain strong when old wounds are opened repeatedly. This looks like opening an old wound to me, regardless of intent.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 04:19:48 PM by Lyell »

Offline Noelle

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2010, 06:14:18 PM »
You might find this article relevant to your arguments, especially because a singular piece of video footage does not accurately represent an entire body of people scattered throughout the world. I'd say it's akin to showing non-Americans footage of Jaywalking where the average citizen is portrayed to be a clueless idiot.

Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S exaggerated

This clip is especially fitting:

Quote
However, policies that alienate Muslims may increase the threat of homegrown terrorism rather than reducing it, the study said.

"Our research suggests that initiatives that treat Muslim-Americans as part of the solution to this problem are far more likely to be successful," said Schanzer.

Go figure, right? Instead of alienating a group, making them feel like equals and treating them like humans gets a better response.

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2010, 06:21:58 PM »
Were I quoting policy or insinuating that policy had a place here, I might agree with you. I didn't. Popular media has painted a dark image onto muslim and palestinian heritage, and people will trust that image they've been fed first. What is the perception of other americans? The families whom 9/11 had the most impact upon? Are they going to be as receptive as all of you who insist that this is a sign of peace and maturity on our part?

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2010, 06:41:35 PM »
Palestinians danced in the streets on the day of the tragic event that was 9/11 (as has been reported and reaffirmed to be true footage as shot by Reuters).

Dude.

They see us as having come in and taken their homes away, randomly giving those homes to random Jews. And we continue to support the nation that came out of it. That particular snippet has nothing to do with being Muslim and everything to do with being Palestinian.

And that still has nothing to do with the Muslims who live in New York City. Stop debating Islam internationally, please. There are countries that don't like Americans from most religions.

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2010, 07:28:14 PM »
Thank you for entirely evading the point, and ignoring the fact that most people outside the U.S. associate americans with christianity based on the sizable chunk of the populace that follows it.

Put the two words Mosque burned into google and see how many returns you get.

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2010, 07:39:05 PM »
Thank you for entirely evading the point, and ignoring the fact that most people outside the U.S. associate americans with christianity based on the sizable chunk of the populace that follows it.

Put the two words Mosque burned into google and see how many returns you get.

The point of the thread, and the point of the discussion, is about people inside the U.S. People in NYC. That's ... not evading the point. That's getting back to it.

I'm also not sure how mosque burnings are relevant.