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Author Topic: A mosque near Ground Zero?  (Read 7391 times)

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Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2010, 08:04:08 PM »
The discussion revolves around a standard you have for the people in NY that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Treat these people as though thier history has no black marks upon it. People are prejudiced beings and rely on history, thier own or what's been fed to them, to form an opinion. Assuming nobody will take it's construction badly or out of context is just as rediculous as arguing that everyone will take it negatively.*

*which is something I have been trying to avoid implying.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 08:11:11 PM by Lyell »

Offline TriesteTopic starter

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2010, 08:13:36 PM »
... their history doesn't have any black marks on it, unless you count being possible Yankees fans! I'm talking about American citizens, people who live in NYC, people who love the city enough to want to build a 13-story community center there. People who are talking about trying to improve interfaith relations.

I'm not putting Islam as a whole on trial, here. It's not. Are you going to hold American Catholics responsible for crimes committed in Ireland as recently as 15 years ago? Of course not. There is an entire huge ocean between Irish Catholics and American Catholics, and there is also a huge cultural divide. The same differences exist between Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey, et al. - and the United States. To lump them all together is just irrational; they are two different, separate populations.

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2010, 09:10:28 PM »
Yes, nobody ever brings up the crusades or blames Christianity for it, even though they happened a thousand years ago. Nope, never happened. Ever.

Do me a favor and forget that I'm talking about rational people for a second. Actually, forget it entirely, because rational people don't burn down or vandalize mosques for something that the people who built it and worshipped there didn't do. I'm going to try to make this as clear as possible. I'm not questioning the right for American citizens to build a mosque and practice their religion. I'm questioning whether or not the divot heads who committed hate crimes on American citizens after 9/11 will still be divot heads if this building goes up.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 09:29:55 PM by Lyell »

Offline Oniya

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2010, 09:14:04 PM »
I suspect that divot heads (and I'm interpreting that in the golf way - as having a chunk missing) will be divot heads, no matter what happens anywhere.

Offline Lyell

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2010, 09:29:03 PM »
Ahh yes, spell checker IS built right into this. I should use it more. Thanks for pointing that out.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 09:41:35 PM by Lyell »

Offline Doomsday

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2010, 03:04:14 AM »
Because we KNOW better than the nutjobs that flew said planes into the towers.

I've known something like the better part of 200 or so Muslims in my time in the Navy. Most of them servicemen. I've talked to Muslims on four continents.

You know what? Most of them despise and fear the folks like the Talaban and Bin Laden's merry men. Because as much as these people want us dead, how ever much they do to us and ours.. The radicals do more to THEM.

Who do the Taliban oppress the most? Not you or me.

The individual tribesman who knows if he disagrees they will kill him, his wife or child. The businessman that speaks out.  The Iman who preaches tolerance. The man in the street who is trying to better himself and his family.

They are thugs, bullies and bandits. You're dealing with people who don't debate or discuss. They kill and oppress. They use us as the bad guys so that the people they REALLY oppress and hurt don't think about what they can do to fight back.

And historically guys.. We, the western world, have SERIOUSLY screwed the pooch on who we've helped out there.

Come on... how many problems have we've made or left behind after our 'mission complete' parade?

Let's see..

Saddam? We supported him.

The Shah of Iran? One of the nastiest most evil fuckers that ever lived.

The Taliban/Al Quadi?  WE TRAINED them to fight the Russians..then left them high and dry.


WE MADE THIS PROBLEM. We did. For nearly 60 years.

To fix it, we need to accept a few things.

1. These evil men are NOT the true face of the Islamic faith, but the most vocal ones.
2. We need to fix our fuck ups. That means build governments, make people in the region realize THEY can do something.
3. Help the few moderate groups out there to survive.
4. Accept that it took 60 years to get us in this whole and it's not getting fixed tomorrow (politician's promises aside) and if we don't fix it now.. Our children and grandchildren will pay the price. We inherited this mess, we made it worse but we don't have to pass it along.

Damn, five star post man.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2010, 07:58:50 PM »
Damn, five star post man.

Sadly we won't do anything like it. So it's moot. We'll downsize assetts, ignore problems because 'it's over there' and find excuses to not face up to us making the problem worse by doing half measures.

Offline itsbeenfun2000

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2010, 01:15:16 AM »
I took me awhile to get through all the posts. I just want to point out a few things that makes the US different from the rest of the world. Their are extremists in all religions. Our country has had the unique ability over the centuries to reject them.

We believe in the constitution so much that religious freedom is more important then worrying about the "what if" question. What if someone attacks us as we defend each others rights? What if some group uses our constitution against us. So far it has worked over 200 years that no group has been able to do it. Extremists have come and gone throughout our history and we have survived not by being scared of them and suspending the constitution but by rejecting them and allowing the constitution to work. Religious freedom is one of the rights guaranteed by our constitution and look what it has done. No where else in the world do you have five major religions working together. Even today you have fighting by extremists in Ireland and yet in the United States the two factions get along and have no problem. We have been taught to respect each others beliefs and that is what makes us great.

I teach in the suburbs of Chicago where the diversity is great. The kids get along all religions all races because it is how we bring them up. Its a shame some get away from that when the are out of school but for the most part the people here learn how to work together its our biggest strength.

If a peaceful group wants to put up a building to enhance the area I am all for it no matter what religion they are.

Offline MajorTeroh

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2010, 03:02:17 AM »
*sighs* Really? Is it that I just don't care or what? I say that all religions have their zealots, and always will. Religions will never get along with each other, and there will always be violence because of this. I personally say oh well, you can agree to disagree or just leave each other alone. I mean, if it's not us in the past it's the Muslims now, and who knows, maybe for some reason Buddhists will somehow go completely against their current beliefs and turn violent in the future. Personally, though my experiences are brief and far from highly encompassing, I think that if I was to ever become religious, I would choose Judaism or become a Muslim, because the members of these religions have shown and promoted more understanding and acceptance than any Christian I have ever met. I live in the south of the United States, in my opinion one of the most "religious" yet prejudiced areas in the States if not the world, and I would never be a Christian with a vast majority of the ones I have met here. Having family in the northern sections of the States, I would also say I wouldn't be a Christian with them either, as they only seem to see religion worth practicing during the religious holidays, such as Easter and Christmas. I believe everyone has the right to practice what religion they want, where ever they want, within reasonable standards. By reasonable though, I don't mean not within an area that people believe they shouldn't be, I mean like in absurd areas such as the middle of the street. I personally believe if they wanted to build a religious building at ground zero, then if support is strong enough for it that funds are raised, then it should be built, no matter what the religion. I know that people are going to flame, as they always do, no matter what the subject. I find it humorous that people can actually argue as hard as whether the PS3 is as good as the XBox 360 as they can about which religion is right. I personally believe all religions are wrong in that they make people divided. I think that they are good in that they give hope though.   

Offline Nyarly

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2010, 04:57:27 AM »
I took me awhile to get through all the posts. I just want to point out a few things that makes the US different from the rest of the world. Their are extremists in all religions. Our country has had the unique ability over the centuries to reject them.

We believe in the constitution so much that religious freedom is more important then worrying about the "what if" question. What if someone attacks us as we defend each others rights? What if some group uses our constitution against us. So far it has worked over 200 years that no group has been able to do it. Extremists have come and gone throughout our history and we have survived not by being scared of them and suspending the constitution but by rejecting them and allowing the constitution to work. Religious freedom is one of the rights guaranteed by our constitution and look what it has done. No where else in the world do you have five major religions working together. Even today you have fighting by extremists in Ireland and yet in the United States the two factions get along and have no problem. We have been taught to respect each others beliefs and that is what makes us great.
This is hardly unique. If that were the case, we in Germany would have big problems with Christianity and Islam getting along, because there are quite many muslims (due to the high number of Turkish people) here. But we don't have. The only christians, who have a problem with the muslims, are fundamentalist morons, barely anyone takes serious.

In that regard, it's much better here than in Switzerland...

Offline Mystique

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2010, 05:18:48 AM »
Regarding the original topic of building a mosque near ground zero - I don’t see the problem as long as the laws of the state are followed in building and worshiping there. What are the reasons not to let them build it?

9/11 was a terrible tragedy. Conducted by 13 (?) people. Blame an entire religion for the hate of a few fundamentalists (and thereby prevent a mosque being built nearby)? Seems short sighted. But, if I had lost a loved one at ground zero, my perception of the issue may be different.

Anyways, every religion has fundamentalists, the nuts who like to take it that extra step to show they are big shots. However, rather than it being a problem of their religion, it could be more of a “human” problem where humans fail to choose between significant precepts of their religions (e.g.  picking eye for an eye rather than forgiveness).

Somewhere earlier it was mentioned that none-believers are not allowed in mosques. I would prefer transparency in organised religion of any kind. The ‘behind closed doors’ policy many religions have seems to be asking for trouble. Yes they have the right to privacy but it must balance with other's right to safety. That is not only for religion but for any other instituion. I don’t mean open up the spaces for tourists but open them up to normal people so they are able to view what the religion is about and see things for themselves. Education, understanding, acceptance - could go a long way to stop human conflict. Most often it is the ignorance regarding a concept that drives people to do horrible things.

Offline Nyarly

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2010, 05:54:25 AM »
Somewhere earlier it was mentioned that none-believers are not allowed in mosques. I would prefer transparency in organised religion of any kind. The ‘behind closed doors’ policy many religions have seems to be asking for trouble. Yes they have the right to privacy but it must balance with other's right to safety. That is not only for religion but for any other instituion. I don’t mean open up the spaces for tourists but open them up to normal people so they are able to view what the religion is about and see things for themselves. Education, understanding, acceptance - could go a long way to stop human conflict. Most often it is the ignorance regarding a concept that drives people to do horrible things.
This is the first time, I ever heard that non-muslims aren't allowed in mosques. From what I know, they actually are allowed.

Offline Mystique

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2010, 07:02:45 AM »
Okay, so I thought I would go check up on that. There is a bit about it in Wikipedia, right at the bottom of the page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque

To summarise, there are some regions where non-Muslims are not allowed and there are some where they are. Most US mosques seem to be open to non-Muslims...

Offline Oniya

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Re: A mosque at Ground Zero?
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2010, 10:30:02 AM »
The proposal is to build a site two blocks from ground zero. It's supposed to be a 13 story Islamic center. A gym, pool, sort of a YMCA sort of deal for Muslims. Even though it will not be exclusive to Islam it is being touted to promote interfaith relations, I think it's still an inflammatory gesture and in bad taste to be anywhere near ground zero.

This was back on the first page and seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle.  It's not entirely a mosque,although I believe a mosque will be part of it, and is not going to be exclusive to Islam.  (I do not agree with the opinion that it is inflammatory, and stand by the fact that it's two blocks away and will replace a building damaged in the attack.  Why anyone would want to keep a busted up Burlington Coat Factory is beyond me.)

Offline Noelle

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2010, 11:24:23 AM »
Okay, so I thought I would go check up on that. There is a bit about it in Wikipedia, right at the bottom of the page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque

To summarise, there are some regions where non-Muslims are not allowed and there are some where they are. Most US mosques seem to be open to non-Muslims...

Yep, this. I've toured a mosque in Paris, and though we couldn't actually enter the places where people actually worshiped, they allowed us to at least peer in the door, tour the gardens and the like, and a few other rooms, including a library. They pretty much only ask that you dress appropriately (conservative clothes, women shouldn't be showing anything above the ankles, though they don't always make you cover your hair, etc.)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2010, 12:34:05 PM »
This is the first time, I ever heard that non-muslims aren't allowed in mosques. From what I know, they actually are allowed.

Most of my at hand experience was in the Gulf and Asia.. where they are closed to non-believers. I'm sorry if I added facts that aren't in practice here. I haven't been as close to a Mosque here as there. (Of course the wanna be architect was more enchanted with the older mosques I saw in the Gulf)

Offline zoarster

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Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2010, 03:23:37 PM »
Most of my at hand experience was in the Gulf and Asia.. where they are closed to non-believers. I'm sorry if I added facts that aren't in practice here. I haven't been as close to a Mosque here as there. (Of course the wanna be architect was more enchanted with the older mosques I saw in the Gulf)

My experience in college was a lot different... I'm a Christian but the Muslim Students Association was very welcoming and invited me to their Ramadan events even if I decided not to fast. Eventually I prayed and fasted with them all 40 days, which was a very fulfilling experience!

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2010, 03:58:23 PM »
My experience in college was a lot different... I'm a Christian but the Muslim Students Association was very welcoming and invited me to their Ramadan events even if I decided not to fast. Eventually I prayed and fasted with them all 40 days, which was a very fulfilling experience!

I've been around the gulf during Ramadan, didn't fast but the UAE isn't too pushy about others doing it, and it was very interesting to talk to folks about it.

Offline Noelle

Re: A mosque near Ground Zero?
« Reply #93 on: August 04, 2010, 01:13:19 PM »
I'll just put this here.

A few quotes that are especially relevant:

Quote
Ironically, Islam's roots in New York City are in the area around the site of the World Trade Center, and they predate the Twin Towers: in the late 19th century, a portion of lower Manhattan was known as Little Syria and was inhabited by Arab immigrants - Muslims and Christians - from the Ottoman Empire.

Quote
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and his wife Daisy Khan, are actually the kind of Muslim leaders right-wing commentators fantasize about: modernists and moderates who openly condemn the death cult of al-Qaeda and its adherents - ironically, just the kind of "peaceful Muslims" whom Sarah Palin, in her now infamous tweet, asked to "refudiate" the mosque. Rauf is a Sufi, which is Islam's most mystical and accommodating denomination.

Quote
Since 9/11, Western "experts" have said repeatedly that Muslim leaders who fit Rauf's description should be sought out and empowered to fight the rising tide of extremism. In truth, such figures abound in Muslim lands, even if their work goes unnoticed by armchair pundits elsewhere. Their cause is not helped when someone like Rauf finds himself being excoriated for some perceived reluctance to condemn Hamas and accused of being an extremist himself. If anything, this browbeating of a moderate Muslim empowers the narrative promoted by al-Qaeda: that the West loathes everything about Islam and will stop at nothing to destroy it.

He certainly doesn't fit the bill for an evil terrorist mastermind with a funny hat, but hey, who knows? Keep this man away from gasoline leaks, or we're going to have a Muslim Harvey Dent on our hands!  O8)