Trump

[TheGlyphstone]

Okay, I can understand that looking a bit childish, but is he not entitled to ask for an exploration into the people who wanted to find him guilty?

Even aside from everything else, I think he honestly should be allowed to be a bit pissed off. Everyone decided his guilt before the investigation was completed, and now he can give them the proverbial middle finger.

That's the thing though, is that there is no indication other than Trump's continual shrieking that Mueller+Co. wanted to find him guilty at all. As I had said, Mueller ran this whole thing with as much professionalism as a human being could have. And the final report did indeed clear Trump of any direct or indirect collusion with Russian agents (a completely different question than if Russia interfered at all, but I digress).

Trump could have been magnanimous in his victory, possibly even apologize to Mueller for previous accusations. It'd be quite out of character for him, but at least in my personal book it would have earned a few humanity points against the deficit he's built up. Instead he's doubling down with the Orwellian logic that Mueller was biased and determined to find him guilty but still wrote a report proving he wasn't.

[Suiko]

He was not cleared of obstruction.  Mueller purposefully did not say he did not obstruct. It was 45's dick sucker that ruled no obstruction - which was expected no matter what the report said.  There are still investigations going, so, I will sit back and wait.

That fair enough to wait until the full picture is given, aye. Makes sense.

That's the thing though, is that there is no indication other than Trump's continual shrieking that Mueller+Co. wanted to find him guilty at all. As I had said, Mueller ran this whole thing with as much professionalism as a human being could have. And the final report did indeed clear Trump of any direct or indirect collusion with Russian agents (a completely different question than if Russia interfered at all, but I digress).

Trump could have been magnanimous in his victory, possibly even apologize to Mueller for previous accusations. It'd be quite out of character for him, but at least in my personal book it would have earned a few humanity points against the deficit he's built up. Instead he's doubling down with the Orwellian logic that Mueller was biased and determined to find him guilty but still wrote a report proving he wasn't.

It's okay to disagree with how he reacted, but at the same time I think you can still recognise that it's understandable. Imagine it was someone who you followed and approved of who had gone through this process and been cleared - wouldn't you feel a bit like 'Haha! Take that!' I don't think you can expect a man to behave without emotions just because he's the president.

No, asking for an exploration into the people investigating him is not ok. He gave people plenty of reason to be suspicious, and the investigators were doing their jobs in an attempt to figure out if he was working with the Russians or just complicit in accepting their help to win the election. They were just doing their jobs and did nothing wrong. And "giving them the proverbial middle finger"? Is that how a President of the United States is expected to act? Pathetic. (Not you, but him)

Trump is still a human being, and can react emotionally to things when he doubtless feels a lot of vindication and annoyance over the whole thing. I think the worst you can say is that its childish - all the stuff about how he's disgusting and pathetic and all this... it seems overblown simply because it's Trump. Can he not have a moment?

[gaggedLouise]

Also, the cautious conclusion of Mueller on the collusion charges has to be seen in the light of lack of access to key witnesses. Manafort promised to cooperate and then perjured himself - he lied to the investigation -  Trump's closest men have not been questioned (Don Jr, Jared Kushner, etc) and a dozen Russians (who used to live in the US) whom the Mueller team wanted to speak to famously fled back to Russia and have been out of reach.

Essentially Mueller seems to be saying "we won't be able to prove collusion as things stand now, and within the foreseeable future".

[Teo Torriatte]

It's not because he is Trump. It is because he is a world leader and has never bothered himself to actually act like one. I hold presidents and other world leaders to a higher example because he is supposed to be some kind of role model.

And like I said before, we all knew he was going to gloat. It's a little sickening but nowhere near as frightening as his insistence on investigating the investigators. In a free country we just don't do that. And as president his words matter.

[TheGlyphstone]

I think that's it, best summarized. No one didn't expect him to gloat, and you (Khoraz) are in all right that here he does have a genuine right to gloat a little in being vindicated. It's everything else that, as usual, remains concerning.

The worst part? This isn't even over, because the House is going to try and force the issue of making the entire thing public. We can't just drop it and move on to the next ridiculous nonsense he vomits out into the Twitterverse, it's going to hang with us for months.

[loki]

It's not because he is Trump. It is because he is a world leader and has never bothered himself to actually act like one. I hold presidents and other world leaders to a higher example because he is supposed to be some kind of role model.

And like I said before, we all knew he was going to gloat. It's a little sickening but nowhere near as frightening as his insistence on investigating the investigators. In a free country we just don't do that. And as president his words matter.

Wow, you seem to have a hypocritical outlook on Trump. I mean, last time I asked kids whom they look up to, the president wasn't even mentioned.  You seem to want to hold the man to a higher standard so that you can tear him down and disapprove of all his human actions. He is just a figure head like the Queen herself, it takes a whole bunch more people than one person to run a country. So if you insist on being disgusted with Trump then you should also be sickened with a ton of other people in power as well.

Also, Trump has put up with people falsely accusing him of everything under the sun and mocking him constantly  since he started his presidency. So I think he has more than enough right to gloat. I mean, I doubt anyone who had been hounded for 2 years for something that they didn't do, wouldn't do the very same thing no matter who they are.

Plus, having the investigators investigated IS something a free country would do. You have the right to accuse your accusers of wrong doing in a court of law. It's called a counter claim. (I believe, though I might be wrong the naming) And with all of the rock kicking they did to find dirt on Trump, they found evidence of wrong doing with other top or influential people. You just can't see that and ignore it because it doesn't pertain to Trump. It IS against the law as well is immoral, unethical and hypocritical.

Look, I know people here hate Trump. That's fine, it's their choice. But to allow oneself to be blinded by that hate so much that they can not see the truth, is a very sad thing.

[TheGlyphstone]

There are countries where simply suggestiing that a head of state has committed wrongdoing is itself a criminal act. They are called tyrannies, and we do not live in one (yet).

You are not permitted to sue the police for investigating you as a suspect in a crime, that is absurd. If they are found to have somehow violated your rights in the process of investigation like an illegal wiretap, that would be grounds for a civil suit or counter-claim. But simply 'they said I might have done something wrong, that's illegal' is beyond unreasonable.

[Kitteredge]

We know Trump has falsified his taxes. We know he is running his businesses, as president, as a way of collecting influence and raising cash. We know his family is probably selling state secrets for money. In fact, it's highly likely Jared Kushner has. We know Trump has thrown fits and closed down the government for no discernible reason, costing us billions of dollars. We know he has lied, repeatedly, in almost every facet of his dialog with the nation and others.

We know that Russia helped his campaign, broke into private communications, and used this for his advantage. We know his campaign manager is going to jail for crimes. We know his personal lawyer is going to jail for crimes. We know his personal friend and 'dirty tricks' man, Roger Stone, is likely going to prison. Many other figures have been indicted. What Mueller could not apparently find was proof that Trump directly ordered those things to happen; but so many top figures around his campaign have either turned state evidence or are going to prison the link is pretty strong.

We know Trump has utterly failed to quell the rise of white supremacy in this country, indeed around the world. In fact, he completely failed to condemn even neo-Nazis after Charlottesville. He's failed, at every step, to condemn the murders at synagogues and mosques, the violence against people of color, and seems to support a growing movement of violence against many of us. In addition, his administration has okayed the indefinite detention of people who are seeking asylum at the border and have not only split up families, they have lost hundreds upon hundreds of children. No one knows where they are.

This only scratches the surface. Trump has comported himself like a toddler. There has never in my lifetime been a more odious, foul, intemperate, unworthy, and disgusting man to lead this country. No one comes close. He is just a horror. I legitimately cannot believe anyone can see him as other than a puffed-up coward who runs his mouth and does fuck-all but let this country collapse around him. The only person he cares about is himself. He's a great user, almost a vampire, sucking the life out of everything he touches. He's bankrupted companies that have tried to sell steak, vodka, and gambling to Americans. Imagine bankrupting companies selling such things to people. He's never been a success at anything other than preening around as a reality TV star. He's likely deeply in debt and seems to be beholden not only to the Russians, but to China and possibly Saudi Arabia.

Some of this is speculation, but most of it is fact. At only the level of being a man, a human being, he is a gross failure. As a leader, he is a monster, plying the worst urges of too many people. As a leader of this country, he is a ruin. This is even before we get into all the things he is currently being investigated for, and rightly so. Not only him, but across the board in his corrupt administration. And doesn't even mention his ties to goddamn Jeffrey Epstein and his disgusting sexual nature, from the fact that underage girls were recruited at Mar-a-Lago to fuck grown men to the fact, which Trump has admitted, that he liked to run beauty pageants because he could walk into the girls' dressing rooms at any time (underage girls, I might add).

I truly question the mental faculties of anyone who sees him in any other light but the very worst. This includes many relatives in my extended family, alas, and signifies the rot in this country.

[Kitteredge]

I feel like I want to continue, lol. Trump is an economic disaster. I mean, not only just supporting the states that voted for him, like some wet three year old, giving support to disasters in Alabama but refusing the same to California. But in his tariffs, which are so idiotic they are basically the second chapter in an Economics 101 textbook: Tariffs, Don't Do Them. He's also, with the Republicans in Congress, slapped us with a TRILLION DOLLAR yearly debt. This is unbelievable. And no good came from these tax cuts other than getting their rich friends even richer. We're going into deep ruin without any easy way of digging out because of this President. And there's little chance of arresting the descent. I fear we're running on fumes, or, like Coyote running off a cliff. Things look sort of good in some regards, but the fundamentals are really shaky. If a catastrophe hits, this is going to be a goddamn mess.

I mean, good grief. I don't get it. I truly think much of this country has gone insane.

[loki]

There are countries where simply suggestiing that a head of state has committed wrongdoing is itself a criminal act. They are called tyrannies, and we do not live in one (yet).

You are not permitted to sue the police for investigating you as a suspect in a crime, that is absurd. If they are found to have somehow violated your rights in the process of investigation like an illegal wiretap, that would be grounds for a civil suit or counter-claim. But simply 'they said I might have done something wrong, that's illegal' is beyond unreasonable.

Last time checked, slander and deformation of character are heard in courts of law all the time. But besides that, they did violate his rights. They (the ones in charge of the false accusations) did illegally wire tap him and falsify documentation to over look and keep the investigation going with no proof of wrong doing on Trump's part. That sounds like mishandling of a case and a violation of rights to me. Though in the end, if he doesn't or can't investigate the investigators according to our laws, nothing will happen. But if it does happen, then he is well within his rights to do so. Right?

[Kitteredge]

Last time checked, slander and deformation of character are heard in courts of law all the time. But besides that, they did violate his rights. They (the ones in charge of the false accusations) did illegally wire tap him and falsify documentation to over look and keep the investigation going with no proof of wrong doing on Trump's part. That sounds like mishandling of a case and a violation of rights to me. Though in the end, if he doesn't or can't investigate the investigators according to our laws, nothing will happen. But if it does happen, then he is well within his rights to do so. Right?

Who? What are you talking about? What's your proof? If the FBI did something wrong, you should tell the DOJ. The DOJ is headed by Trump appointees. If they aren't doing anything, isn't that a sign that you're just making stuff up? That you're entirely wrong?

[Skynet]

Look, I know people here hate Trump. That's fine, it's their choice. But to allow oneself to be blinded by that hate so much that they can not see the truth, is a very sad thing.

I recall that you didn't respond to I, or some other people's points, of bad behavior of the man's actions beyond "orange man bad." To repeat myself here...

US citizen here. I'd be interested in hearing how the Trump administration made it safer when he defunded programs to help survivors of sex trafficking.

Or how he hired Alexander Acosta onto his team, a man which went around the law to protect a serial rapist.

Or how his egoist war with the FBI is supposed to inspire faith between the executive branch and law enforcement.

Or how the children of immigrant families separated into containment facilities will be safe and sound when their process of hiring is so poor they got a man arrested for possessing child pornography as a guard.

I could go on, but how is any of this making my country, no our country, safer?

Would you regard this quote of mine to be blind hate?

[SweetSerenade]

Last time checked, slander and deformation of character are heard in courts of law all the time. But besides that, they did violate his rights. They (the ones in charge of the false accusations) did illegally wire tap him and falsify documentation to over look and keep the investigation going with no proof of wrong doing on Trump's part. That sounds like mishandling of a case and a violation of rights to me. Though in the end, if he doesn't or can't investigate the investigators according to our laws, nothing will happen. But if it does happen, then he is well within his rights to do so. Right?

Please present your evidence for your claims. For these and other situations that are yet left unresolved. Please and thank you.

[TheGlyphstone]

Please present your evidence for your claims. For these and other situations that are yet left unresolved. Please and thank you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Tower_wiretapping_allegations

That page sums up the whole thing.

[SweetSerenade]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Tower_wiretapping_allegations

That page sums up the whole thing.

I was asking Loki to present evidence because they have previous situations in here they did not resolve but instead left without providing evidence for claims. I want them to present evidence instead of gaslighting and using strawmen to prop themselves up.

[TheGlyphstone]

I was asking Loki to present evidence because they have previous situations in here they did not resolve but instead left without providing evidence for claims. I want them to present evidence instead of gaslighting and using strawmen to prop themselves up.

I was only hoping to give some context to said claims, since the 2017 allegations are likely what they are referring to.

[SweetSerenade]

I was only hoping to give some context to said claims, since the 2017 allegations are likely what they are referring to.

<3 I appreciate what did, I do enjoy when people present evidence when it's presented.

[TheGlyphstone]

<3 I appreciate what did, I do enjoy when people present evidence when it's presented.

I think the problem is that you've presented loki with an impossible request because, as indicated in the article, there is no evidence. It's entirely based on Trump's unsupported accusations stretching back to when Obama was still President, and refuted directly by the FBI and DOJ.

[legomaster00156]

I accept our nation's intelligence and law enforcement, and I respect their findings. I personally believe obstruction of justice was committed, openly, but if they feel that it will not hold up in court, it is their prerogative not to pursue charges.

[loki]

Would you regard this quote of mine to be blind hate?

No, I would not. But the defunding of one program that wasn't working up to its full potential and moving those funds to another to stop the sex trafficking isn't a bad thing. As for the people he hired, you can only go on what that person says. You can't do an random in-depth background probe into someone with out just cause. Don't know anything about the faith between the law and government branch thing so I will refrain from commenting. The illegal children, he is only following guidelines that were already there. You just can't walk in a place like that and fire people without just cause. Plus, I am sure the man isn't still working there, if he was then yes, I would have a problem with it also.

Again, Trump isn't the only person in charge. He is just the mouth piece that the people chose to represent us, yet he is the only one taking blame for everything wrong with the country.  None of the other presidents took as much blame for the actions of the previous problems in the country/world that was there before they came into office. Other political people are to blame as well, not just Trump. Spread the hate if you have to hate and spread the blame as well.



For the others that want "proof", TheGlyphstone is correct on the wiretapping that I was referring to. I have read many articles from many different sources that I do not recall all the sites or pages. However, the one that I did pull from in another thread, was torn apart due to what site it came from. Sites do not hold a lot of clout with me, I am just interested in the articles. That being said, I do not wish to play the "that site is fake news site because" (fill in blank here) game. I would also like to point out that even the major media sites have been caught lying and posting fake news. Sites like CNN, Fox, MSNBC and so on. So with that in mind, how can you prove facts on anything when all the news site have been busted for lying?  Answer, you can't. You need to take everything with a grain of salt. I am sorry if this answer doesn't satisfy you, but people can have conversation all the time without quoting from sources to make their points. It is done on here everyday, right?

[loki]

I think the problem is that you've presented loki with an impossible request because, as indicated in the article, there is no evidence. It's entirely based on Trump's unsupported accusations stretching back to when Obama was still President, and refuted directly by the FBI and DOJ.

There are other more recent articles that state proof of this being done. But as I said before, where, when and who wrote it, I can't remember and am not entirely sure where to even find the articles now. Most of the stuff I read comes off of facebook, so as to the original articles author or site is just lost to me. I just read and move on.

[TheGlyphstone]

Supermarket tabloids have more journalistic credibility than Facebook, unfortunately. Technically, David Icke has more journalistic credibility than Facebook (he was a respected journalist once upon a time) And that's before its algorithms come into play that deliberately slant provocative or divisive information without accounting for its truthfulness. So if that's where you get most of your information, it might be a big explanation into why it's so hard for you to back the claims you've sometimes made.

[TheGlyphstone]

Accidental reply break. Facebook doesn't want you to easily re-find information, it wants you constantly reposting and liking and sharing the latest bit of provocative new things. That blog post Uncle Steve shared from his friend's Twitter quoting a Youtube celebrity is long gone into the depths of history by the time you need to cite it, but its facts or 'facts' lodged in your brain anyways.

[loki]

Supermarket tabloids have more journalistic credibility than Facebook, unfortunately. Technically, David Icke has more journalistic credibility than Facebook (he was a respected journalist once upon a time) And that's before its algorithms come into play that deliberately slant provocative or divisive information without accounting for its truthfulness. So if that's where you get most of your information, it might be a big explanation into why it's so hard for you to back the claims you've sometimes made.

See, this would be why I didn't want to play the "it isn't news" game. Just because it came off of facebook, doesn't mean it isn't news. I get CNN and several others off of there as well. Are they fake or less credible because they are on facebook as well?


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/03/nunes-house-intel-will-make-criminal-referrals-to-ag-barr-on-fbi-doj-officials-who-perpetrated-this-hoax/

One of the links... now lets see what's wrong with this site....

Accidental reply break. Facebook doesn't want you to easily re-find information, it wants you constantly reposting and liking and sharing the latest bit of provocative new things. That blog post Uncle Steve shared from his friend's Twitter quoting a Youtube celebrity is long gone into the depths of history by the time you need to cite it, but its facts or 'facts' lodged in your brain anyways.

Now that is very true and I totally agree.

[Kitteredge]

Gateway Pundit? Oh, honey.