Trump

[Haibane]

The notion that we can cooperate and work with Russia is a naive one. They're not interested in cooperating. They're not interesting in meeting us halfway. If we give them an inch, they'll take a foot. If we give them a foot, they'll take a mile.

It isn't. And I don't just mean genuinely building a positive relationship with Russia-- I mean even trying to find avenues of limited cooperation for strictly strategic purposes, to 'use them as an ally'. Even the pretense would be counterproductive and harmful.

I agree. The issue with any level of co-operation with Russia is that it would imply condoning what Putin stands for which is despicable in terms of state sponsored assassinations alone. It really is impossible to co-operate with Putin in any meaningful way. A post-Putin Russia may however offer options.

[Haibane]

And, where is US, during fighting with Armenia and Azerbaijan?

Its being led by a president who possibly doesn't even know where those countries are, let alone have any interest in involving the USA in distant politics that he views as irrelevant. He's too busy holding his own people as economic hostages and pardoning murderers. More reasons he must go.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

I agree. The issue with any level of co-operation with Russia is that it would imply condoning what Putin stands for which is despicable in terms of state sponsored assassinations alone.

Mr Trump, and US, use drones for asassinations too though. If Russia used drones, the way US does, US would go crazy. But, when they do its okay, to condone?

[TheGlyphstone]

Mr Trump, and US, use drones for asassinations too though. If Russia used drones, the way US does, US would go crazy. But, when they do its okay, to condone?

You are not wrong.

But I am curious now. Obviously American TV says bad things about Russia and China and Russian TV says bad thing about America. Chinese TV probably says bad things about America too. But what does Russian TV say about China? Do they say good things or bad things?

[Beorning]

US is never interested, in meeting Russia halfway either though.

The problem is, Russia's current government cannot be met halfway. Sorry, but... what would "meeting halfway" be? Accepting the hostile takeover of Crimea? Splitting Ukraine in half?

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

You are not wrong.

But I am curious now. Obviously American TV says bad things about Russia and China and Russian TV says bad thing about America. Chinese TV probably says bad things about America too. But what does Russian TV say about China? Do they say good things or bad things?

Its mixed. China isn’t considered good freind, or good ally, of Russia. But, there is much talk, of cooperation. Russia is very much more interested, and willing, for allying with China right now, then US.

[TheGlyphstone]

Its mixed. China isn’t considered good freind, or good ally, of Russia. But, there is much talk, of cooperation. Russia is very much more interested, and willing, for allying with China right now, then US.

That would make sense. Russia and China share a very long border and they are pushing their territorial interests in different directions. Russia wants to control East Europe and the Middle East. China wants to control Africa and the South Pacific. Not much reason for them to fight now and they both are enemies of America.

As far as Armenia and Azerbaijan, would they want America to get involved or is it more the feeling that America goes everywhere even if it isnt wanted? I look at the map and see them very close to Russia. America getting involved in countries right on the Russian border could make things worse between American and Russia. Like if Russia got involved in a fight between Mexico and Guatemala. I would be surprised and worried.

[John Birch]

Mr Trump, and US, use drones for asassinations too though. If Russia used drones, the way US does, US would go crazy. But, when they do its okay, to condone?

US is never interested, in meeting Russia halfway either though. Or, many other countries. And, where is US, during fighting with Armenia and Azerbaijan?

Deflecting criticisms with disingenuous claims of 'hey the US isn't any better!' is a classic Putin technique. Really, a classic in the toolbox of Russian leadership going back to the Soviet days. Get back to me when an American president starts having critics and dissidents assassinated and poisoned. In fact, get back to me when Russia stops trying to undermine American government and destroy any inkling of democracy in its neighboring countries-- maybe then we can talk about meeting Russia halfway.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

Deflecting criticisms with disingenuous claims of 'hey the US isn't any better!' is a classic Putin technique. Really, a classic in the toolbox of Russian leadership going back to the Soviet days. Get back to me when an American president starts having critics and dissidents assassinated and poisoned. In fact, get back to me when Russia stops trying to undermine American government and destroy any inkling of democracy in its neighboring countries-- maybe then we can talk about meeting Russia halfway.

Fine. Im done

[Missy]

I think I'd like to add there should be recognized a difference between a government (i.e. the Putin Regime, the Xi Regime, the Kim Regime etc . . . ) and it's people. Especially in authoritarian states where the will of the people is co-opted by heavy use of propaganda to idolize its leadership and vilify its rivals (we see this the world over and throughout history in the case of authoritarian regimes). I've always felt the citizens of such regimes are very much victims of the play of such regimes in their manipulative bid to retain control and power, really I think sometimes it's hard to tell if an individual themselves is necessarily being deliberately disingenuous or merely replaying the patter and spiel of an authoritarian regimes propaganda department. Particularly in the case of Russia I honestly wonder if the cult of personality Putins built for himself doesn't just go and turn Trump radioactive green with envy. Mind you though I don't think Trumpers are comparable to Russians in any form - it would be massively unfair to compare actual ideologues with options in media consumption and the citizens of an autocratic state which very aggressively controls it's media reporting. As far as drone attacks go, to be honest I'm not very familiar with the criticism abroad, nor the associated evidence thereof, but this is the first time I've heard it called out by a Russian, I'm not ready to dismiss such remarks as the product of a repressive regimes propaganda machine.


In my personal opinion I think the two things to take away from this are

1) Putins got one hell of a cult of personality going, that is I think there's loads of people in the world who would kill to have someone say "kind inside" of them no matter what they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBwtEQQ9qd0

2) Criticism of the use of certain class of weapons is a broad phenomenon not limited to the citizens of those states overseen by regressive states which heavily direct and influence the character of their media outlets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqCo4T-QkGk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcNEC9NaJuE

[Mechelle]

Good post, Missy. As somebody who is neither American nor Russian, I am very conscious that we did have Russian agents recently attempt to kill a defector in Salisbury, instead killing a British woman, which I cannot possibly imagine an American government doing.  I know the American, and British, governments have both done bad things, though.

Trump has tried to mimic Putin's personality cult of being a macho man, which is very different to Boris Johnson, incidentally, who appears to want to clown around and make people laugh, while also showing how erudite he is. This might say more about many British or English people

There is definitely  a difference between a government and its citizens, and I do appreciate  Tsaritsa's postings on here.  A different country, but I speak to Belarusians on a daily basis at work, who are good people, but I am conscious that they speak differently when alone than when in a group and other Belarusians may hear.

[gaggedLouise]

He's just granted Manafort, Roger Stone and Charlie Kushner full pardons. That was pretty much expected, from his earlier pardons and his super-close links to all three guys - but it still represents a depressing abuse of the pardon power. Trump is essentially acting like a Mob godfather, dishing out pardons and gifts to his cronies after they committed crimes for him.

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-biden-transition-news-12-23-20/index.html (latest update)

It's also obvious that he is trying to erase all judicial outcomes of the Mueller inquiry.

[Beorning]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm becoming convinced that the idea of a presidential pardon is some sort of feudal remnant that has no place in a modern society...

[Haibane]

Mr Trump, and US, use drones for asassinations too though. If Russia used drones, the way US does, US would go crazy. But, when they do its okay, to condone?

I am not saying the USA does not do a lot of wrong things. All governments do wrong things, but Putin's government does a lot more than most. Trump is also an idiot and the USA is lucky to have such an incompetent person doing what he's trying to do. It will damage America but it won't wreck it. Putin however is a very intelligent man and it shows. It makes him a far greater threat to those he sees as opponents.

Novichok. That's all I need to say.

And state sponsored assassinations of Armenian activists in Turkey.

The link is to the article I was searching for recently which shows photos of the Russian hit man who owns a swastika-emblazoned motorcycle.

[Haibane]

My bad, I meant to write "Chechen activists" nor "Armenian activists".

[Haibane]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm becoming convinced that the idea of a presidential pardon is some sort of feudal remnant that has no place in a modern society...

Agreed. It needs to end, principally because of abuse by people without conscience.

[gaggedLouise]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I'm becoming convinced that the idea of a presidential pardon is some sort of feudal remnant that has no place in a modern society...

I agree, at least if it's an unchecked power that the president is able to use wholly without control or appeal. (The only court that's really able to keep a president from issuing weird and undeserved pardons is the court of popular opinion - that's why the most controversial pardons always happen during the final weeks of an outgoing president, when the guy in power has nothing much to lose.)

[Haibane]

What an effing mess :(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55435942

[Andol]

Its mixed. China isn’t considered good freind, or good ally, of Russia. But, there is much talk, of cooperation. Russia is very much more interested, and willing, for allying with China right now, then US.

I think the reason Russia is starting to see China has a much more lucrative partner in the coming months is they see the coming Biden administration as one who, in its outdated Cold War view points, isn't really useful to them anymore. So what do they do... take the next best choice and see what they can do with China. Hopefully this will not pull out of the deals they where making with France and India on the matter, but we will have to see.   

As a citizen of a country that had suffered for 50 years due to Stalin and Soviet Russia, I can tell you I don't get what you mean at all.

The US chose to ally with the Soviet Union in WWII because they were useful in bringing down Nazi Germany, and then flipped the script after the war. That is what I am talking about. The Russian's have their uses when it comes to getting them to butt heads with China if the US can play the game correct. A lot of our Asian-Pacific Allies will be closely watching to see if Biden is going to stick by them unlike a few incidents during the Obama Administration when the US would have normally stepped in, but didn't giving China the impression of being able to see how far they could push it. Like with the creation of islands and messing with fishing treaties... and yes I know those were small, but one thing after another is how such things are test.

[Skynet]

Can you refer to my earlier questions regarding the sources you used regarding viewing Trump's track record as being good in foreign policy? And thoughts on Trump wanting to withdraw military defense from South Korea?

[Skynet]

Double Post:

In case it got lost in the convo, here's a link to my earlier post.

[Andol]

Can you refer to my earlier questions regarding the sources you used regarding viewing Trump's track record as being good in foreign policy? And thoughts on Trump wanting to withdraw military defense from South Korea?

I actually only just heard of that when you had just told me about it Skynet. So I will need to read more into the opinion of reactions of other nations in the area, and just study into it before I can give a proper answer. However off the cuff, that doesn't seem like a good tactical move especially considering how our allies in the area do need to know that we are there to back them in the face of China's aggressive policies.

Thanks for letting me know about that major fuck up on Trumps part.

[Skynet]

Happy to provide aid!

For further reading, the Libertarian Cato Institute covered it, albeit mostly in the trade terms.

And Reuters.

Another article.

And Newsweek.

In short, Trump is very much a fair-weather ally at best.

On the one hand, I do see value in his more isolationist foreign policy of wanting to cripple the military-industrial complex or getting out of regions when we cannot provide for our own, but for many issues he's said one thing and done another. An aggressive tit-for-tat with another global superpower mandates heavy foreign spending, however you go about it. I myself am an isolationist on foreign policy, but I'd definitely make an exception for South Korea on account that they more or less need our military aid and are an actual democracy that appears to care for its own people. Contrast this to a lot of dictatorships we've supported in the Cold War and today.

[Oniya]

I think the term I heard for it was that Trump's relationships are all 'transactional'.  That is to say, if you can do something for him, then you're 'in', but as soon as you disagree with him, you're 'out'.

[Andol]

I think the term I heard for it was that Trump's relationships are all 'transactional'.  That is to say, if you can do something for him, then you're 'in', but as soon as you disagree with him, you're 'out'.

That I would certainly agree with you on that front.