Trump

[Oniya]

I rather think that the physical collapse of the North Korean nuclear testing site might have had something to do with it.

[Arvus23]

Lots of reason, both long term and short, but that doesn't really matter. Some were caused by Trump, others were caused by China, and some where caused by South Korea, along with the stupidity of North Korea in and of itself.

That's irrelevant rather Trump is given credit like Obama was given credit for Osama being offed.

[gaggedLouise]

South Korean president Moon Jae-In has suggested Trump should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize (!) for his bringing Kim to the negotiating table with a couple of tough arm-bending moves. 

Actually I think it was rather the Chinese who softened him - anyway, the Nobel committee will *never* award Trump the prize. :)

[Regina Minx]

That's irrelevant rather Trump is given credit like Obama was given credit for Osama being offed.

Except for the fact that it was President Obama that personally authorized Operation Neptune's Spear.

[Arvus23]

Except for the fact that it was President Obama that personally authorized Operation Neptune's Spear.

Yes, as is most special operations. That's not special, that's called a Tuesday for them. If the generals don't want to give the go ahead, then they ask the president.

[Arvus23]

South Korean president Moon Jae-In has suggested Trump should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize (!) for his bringing Kim to the negotiating table with a couple of tough arm-bending moves. 

Actually I think it was rather the Chinese who softened him - anyway, the Nobel committee will *never* award Trump the prize. :)

You realize Trump offered them a deal on better coal, if they cut off North Korea. True, a fleet of warships is good enough to get most people to pay attention, but Trump was nice.

Obama got a Nobel prize... I don't want Trump to get one. If he's anything like Obama, then I want nothing to do with him.

[Lustful Bride]

I will admit that Trump had a part in helping bring an end to this situation, but he risked igniting a second Korean war many times. Honestly it probably worked because of right place, right time. The NK was finally breaking down, their nuclear facilities were rotting and collapsing in on themselves, Trump was losing his shit at them every other day. It was just a domino of everything going wrong for the North that they finally looked South and went to them for peace.

It was a massive, slightly unintentional, international case of Good cop Bad Cop. And so long as there is no more shooting and we have real peace, then I will call it a victory.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

You realize Trump offered them a deal on better coal, if they cut off North Korea. True, a fleet of warships is good enough to get most people to pay attention, but Trump was nice.

Obama got a Nobel prize... I don't want Trump to get one. If he's anything like Obama, then I want nothing to do with him.

China probably looked at that deal and laughed. I'm pretty sure they get a fair bit of coal and other resources dirt cheap from North Korea.

They are more than happy to push and shove (as they have been doing with India and all of their other nearby neighbors) in a show of force so the fleet hasn't really done much.  It was more likely that they got tired of the mad dog constantly snapping and embarrassing them and kicked it once to get it to behave.

[Arvus23]

I will admit that Trump had a part in helping bring an end to this situation, but he risked igniting a second Korean war many times. Honestly it probably worked because of right place, right time. The NK was finally breaking down, their nuclear facilities were rotting and collapsing in on themselves, Trump was losing his shit at them every other day. It was just a domino of everything going wrong for the North that they finally looked South and went to them for peace.

It was a massive, slightly unintentional, international case of Good cop Bad Cop. And so long as there is no more shooting and we have real peace, then I will call it a victory.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


China probably looked at that deal and laughed. I'm pretty sure they get a fair bit of coal and other resources dirt cheap from North Korea.

They are more than happy to push and shove (as they have been doing with India and all of their other nearby neighbors) in a show of force so the fleet hasn't really done much.  It was more likely that they got tired of the mad dog constantly snapping and embarrassing them and kicked it once to get it to behave.

The Korean war never ended, so there would be no possibility for a second one to start.

North Korea would need a set amount of income for there coal production to be profitable, something the US can provide a lot of is coal, thanks to Trump.

You also realize that compared to a single US carrier fleet, the Chinese have nothing to match up to a Nimitz class. Even with their second carrier out, it's still extremely old tech.

Dominos isn't a correct analogy, as if it were then the North would've collapsed. Instead think of it as a noose, slowly tightening and strangling the life out of the poor s.o.d.

[Regina Minx]

Yes, as is most special operations. That's not special, that's called a Tuesday for them. If the generals don't want to give the go ahead, then they ask the president.

And that means that Obama didn't "get" bin Laden how, exactly?

[Lustful Bride]

The Korean war never ended, so there would be no possibility for a second one to start.

With how long the cease fire between the North and South went on the war was effectively over, just with occasional flare ups and gun fire being traded across the border. (And the times when the Kims went crazy and fired rockets and mortar/artillery over the border) but without the prolonged fighting I cant honestly call it a war.

North Korea would need a set amount of income for there coal production to be profitable, something the US can provide a lot of is coal, thanks to Trump.

Coal for food/supplies that China regularly gives to them in violation of probably count as the income. Besides, only the upper echelons of North Korea need to be fed and happy. They are more than content to let their people die.

You also realize that compared to a single US carrier fleet, the Chinese have nothing to match up to a Nimitz class. Even with their second carrier out, it's still extremely old tech.

*Shrug* That I will give you because I don't know that much on what the Chinese are fielding, though that artificial island/airfield they are making leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Puts a lot of allied territory in striking distance.

Dominos isn't a correct analogy, as if it were then the North would've collapsed. Instead think of it as a noose, slowly tightening and strangling the life out of the poor s.o.d.

Meh. I suppose. But its still to early to see. I am 100% expecting the North to suddenly launch missiles right after the 'peace' is signed. They have spat on many attempts at discussion before and provoked hostilities. I will believe the peace talks when the deal is signed and the weapons disarmed.

[Lustful Bride]

And that means that Obama didn't "get" bin Laden how, exactly?

To be fair, the Navy Seals were the ones that Got him. Just like Bush didn't get Sadam, it was the troopers who actually captured him who 'Got him'. The leaders just sign the papers but it is all the intelligence, espionage, military, and support personnel who deserve the glory for killing and capturing the worst scum of the earth.

By extension Trump only helped by going wild like he usually does. It was mostly everyone else trying to talk and negotiate and such who did the real effort.

Though I might just be splitting hairs by this point.

[Deamonbane]

Not to be 'that' guy but...

[TheGlyphstone]

Little harsh there, and maybe a bit rude. Most people aren't used to Elliquiy's standards of supporting evidence, which is generally on par with your typical professional debate society. New people who are used to Crazy Uncle Steve's half-drunk Facebook posts being considered encyclopedic proof of something's truthiness tend to hit some culture shock.

TLDR: Being wrong doesn't make someone a troll. They're just used to having unsupported assertions being treated as fact.

[Roleplay Frog]

used to Crazy Uncle Steve's half-drunk Facebook posts being considered encyclopedic proof of something's truthiness tend to hit some culture shock.

Everyone mistrusts uncle Steve - until the aliens land.

[Eye of Horus]

With how long the cease fire between the North and South went on the war was effectively over, just with occasional flare ups and gun fire being traded across the border. (And the times when the Kims went crazy and fired rockets and mortar/artillery over the border) but without the prolonged fighting I cant honestly call it a war.

True, it’s just a symbolic gesture - like when they announced they were halting missile tests (they were never going to launch a provocative missile test in the run-up to a summit anyway, so why not announce it anyway and claim brownie points?). But even symbolic gestures can be important little baby steps on the path to peace. And baby steps are what we generally have to settle for without another middle-east-style intervention which would inevitably do more harm than good.

That this is happening while Trump is president is neither here nor there really.

[gaggedLouise]

Rudy Giuliani (a close ally and himself part of Trump's legal team) tells Fox News that Trump repaid his lawyer for the 130.000$ needed to have Stormy Daniels gagged. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/02/rudy-giuliani-trump-paid-michael-cohen-stormy-daniels-hush-money

Waiting for Trump's early-morning twitter reaction to this... :)

[gaggedLouise]

Aaand...apparently Trump has now confirmed that he did fully pay for the hush money to Stormy Daniels, through Cohen, even though he dismisses the allegations of an affair as junk. He's effectively saying that he bought her silence the way you may buy off a hard-headed, angry but unfounded blackmailing bitch - and that she is still bound by the money to shut up and stop talking. Yeah right...

[Regina Minx]

From the transcript of the Giuliani interview:



Giuliani and Trump appear to be saying that it's common for rich people to give their lawyers a retainer to use the money to pay off people who might embarrass them to keep quiet. So as a defense, this is novel. "Trump didn't know specifically about the payment to Stormy Daniels, but his lawyer knew to take money out of his retainer to pay off women he slept with because he knew Trump would pay him back."

I...I admit that I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how this helps Trump OR Cohen. I mean, campaign finance laws exist for a reason, you know?

Also New York Bar rules prohibit exactly this:

[gaggedLouise]

From the transcript of the Giuliani interview:



Giuliani and Trump appear to be saying that it's common for rich people to give their lawyers a retainer to use the money to pay off people who might embarrass them to keep quiet. So as a defense, this is novel. "Trump didn't know specifically about the payment to Stormy Daniels, but his lawyer knew to take money out of his retainer to pay off women he slept with because he knew Trump would pay him back."

I...I admit that I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how this helps Trump OR Cohen. I mean, campaign finance laws exist for a reason, you know?

Also New York Bar rules prohibit exactly this:

Yeah, Trump has been claiming that the money transactions were only relating to him as a private person, not as a candidate, and so it had nothing to do with the campaign. Hello? 

[Oniya]

So, everyone remember when Trump's doctor delivered his report of the then-candidate's amazing health?

Guess who dictated it?

[Regina Minx]

I've been kind of monitoring the story about the Stormy Daniels payment in light of Giuliani's interview, and there seem to be no signs that any factual matter or admission of Guiliani is going to be walked back.

I just need to ask because honestly, I'm having a hard time accepting that this is real. What we're all now on the same page with, what we all now admit, is that Trump slept with a  porn star when his wife was home with a newborn. And she was paid to keep quiet about it just a few weeks before the 2016 election.  All that we're really debating at this point is who paid her, the source of that money, and if it was made by a private individual or as a campaign activity? Is that roughly accurate?

Or is Trump contending that he did not sleep with the porn star, but his lawyer took it upon himself to pay her off because...reasons?

[Sara Nilsson]

Trump is still claiming that he didn't sleep with her.

"In this case it is in full force and effect and will be used in Arbitration for damages against Ms. Clifford (Daniels). The agreement was used to stop the false and extortionist accusations made by her about an affair despite already having signed a detailed letter admitting that there was no affair. "

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/991994433750142976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2018%2F05%2F03%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-stormy-daniels-payment%2Findex.html

[Regina Minx]

Trump is still claiming that he didn't sleep with her.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/991994433750142976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2018%2F05%2F03%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-stormy-daniels-payment%2Findex.html

So she got paid for...what? So she wouldn't lie and say that they did? What sense does that make? Why not tell her to do her worst and then sue her for defamation if she did go public with it, if it was all a pack of lies?

[Sara Nilsson]

See now you are expecting logic from Trump on this ^^

But yes as you said, so she wouldn't spread the "lies" and no that doesn't make sense for someone who always claimed to be so happy to sue people for deformation at the drop of a hat.

[Roleplay Frog]

If I were trump, I'd say 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman', just because.