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Author Topic: The new Star Wars  (Read 8651 times)

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Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2015, 08:51:09 PM »
Except she doesn't have much in the way of pride or ego. So backpedaling would probably be seen as dumbing down or "ruining" her. The problem with this kind of thing is once you go up you can't go back down and they started at the tippy top.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Also remember that anyone who thinks that Finn's battle with Vadar Jr. was unexpected because of his training remember that A.) He was a storm trooper (you know those guys who go to school to not hit anything and Wilhelm scream). B.) He wasn't a particularly good storm trooper, freaking out on fight one. C.) He was a janitor. So yeah. Pretty freaking impressive from where I sit.

Eh, I wasn't all that impressed as I stated, he was trained and according to a book that goes into his backstory, he was in the top 1% of Stormtroopers in training. Although good point on the backpedaling issue. It would probably dumb down Rey's character. I'm going to file it under "Disney wanted a strong female character" for now and see what comes out.

But the issue for me isn't just the lack of explanation (although that is one; for me the best stories, even if part of a series, work on a self-contained level as well) it's also the very fact that she's so brilliant at everything in the first place. To go back to New Hope again would that have told a better story if Luke had been great at everything from the beginning, able to outduel Vader both with the lightsaber and the force, as good a pilot of the Falcon as Solo, knowing just as much about fixing it as Solo and Chewie etc etc? Hell, even little things like him being able to fight off the Tusken Raiders or not needing Obi Wan to protect him in the Cantina? For me it wouldn't. It may be a cliche and a trope but "the Hero's Journey" has become a cliche and a trope because it works and what Luke goes on is basically the definitive Hero's Journey. Take that away and it all becomes less effective.

I also can't just give them a free pass on it because it's something they have actually covered before (as set out above). While they never did the same thing for Anakin that's because his background and plot were different; by the time we meet him as an adult it's already been established that he's been training for years as a Jedi and that's he's got great skill, power and potential but lacks experience and control. His important journey is how he became a villain and while they may not have been well executed (partly down to the script, partly down to the performance) it was at least something they tried to show and develop.

That's largely just Anakin's flaw that caused him to fall; I'm the Chosen One, I've got all this power, surely I can save the ones I love? Oh, the Dark Side... well, I'm the one who's meant to bring balance to the force right? Surely I've got the power to control that?

In fact it's hard to think of too many Jedi in either the official or the Legends/EU stuff who had a tragic fall (as opposed to just being power hungry) where over confidence and ego wouldn't be a significant element.

I could have bought it all except
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Her sudden mastery of the Force. Out of no where, she can use the Jedi Mind Trick, which it took Luke years to learn. She can pull a lightsaber against someone who's also trying to pull it, without little training. That's what took me out of the movie. I was like, "She then what the fuck does she really need to learn from Luke!?" She's had zero training and can do these things? Being a good pilot, mechanic, fighter could be explained by her upbringing. But I agree that she's been portrayed as a bit too powerful.

Personally, I don't consider Anakin's fall based on ego. He was never really, "I'm the Chosen one! Come at me!" Even in the Clone Wars he was pretty confident, but never really struck me as overconfident. If anything it was OTHER Jedi who were overconfident in themselves and Anakin. Come to think of it, I don't remember Anakin ever uttering the words "I'm the Chosen one." To me, his fall was more his inability to let go of the ones he cared about that drove him (And wasn't played up enough in the movie imo) He wanted the power to be able to save everyone he cared about, no matter the cost. I think it was more selfishness than ego. At least that's always been my opinion of it.

Online Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #126 on: January 01, 2016, 06:07:07 AM »
Eh, I wasn't all that impressed as I stated, he was trained and according to a book that goes into his backstory, he was in the top 1% of Stormtroopers in training. Although good point on the backpedaling issue. It would probably dumb down Rey's character. I'm going to file it under "Disney wanted a strong female character" for now and see what comes out.
Welling going purely by the movie that doesn't follow. You don't send the top 1% of storm trooper graduates (such as that is given their long illustrious history of killing walls) to sanitation. It's just not done in any universe but a bass ackwards one. So I'm going to ignore some non sequitor background fluff for the sake of making sense.

Given that elite storm troopers go on to do much more notable things. I think my assessment of the disconnect sticks.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 06:12:30 AM by Inkidu »

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #127 on: January 01, 2016, 04:12:46 PM »
Welling going purely by the movie that doesn't follow. You don't send the top 1% of storm trooper graduates (such as that is given their long illustrious history of killing walls) to sanitation. It's just not done in any universe but a bass ackwards one. So I'm going to ignore some non sequitor background fluff for the sake of making sense.

Given that elite storm troopers go on to do much more notable things. I think my assessment of the disconnect sticks.

Non sequitor or not, I think it's considered canon. From what I remember, he scored extremely well but was either demoted or held back from becoming an officer (By Captain Phasma) because of his willingness to help out his teammates over the mission objectives. Or something like that. (Note: I don't write this stuff lol) Which is weird because Capt. Phasma states something like he'd never shown any signs of disloyalty in the movie. And here I thought Disney wiped out the EU to make the canon timeline CLEARER!  ??? :o :-( ???

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #128 on: January 03, 2016, 05:25:09 PM »
Extremely late to the party here, which is outrageous given that I absolutely love Star Wars and count it as possibly my favourite franchise in any medium (and definitely favourite film Universe).

Couple of thoughts, but I don't know whether folks are still avoiding spoilers or not, so I'll spoiler up.

Force Awakens Spoilers


All hail based TR-8R. Infinitely superior to the traitor scum.

Okay, actual spoilers now, I warned you
So first off, I think I need to get a few complaints off my chest.

Obviously the big one is that, frankly, The Force Awakens is LITERALLY just A New Hope 2.0. In so many ways from a new R2-D2 to a new Death Star. I mean it also has a few bits and pieces from Empire Strikes back (I mean, they literally brought in a 1000-year-old tiny alien that is super wise in the ways of the Force and they don't want us to think its Yoda?). So the plot gets a bit of a smack around the head from me, frankly I expected better from J.J...

Next up. I love the new characters, but Rey seems like a bit of a Mary Sue to me. Exceptionally good at basically everything without seeming to have to try. I mean, I could handle her having been an excellent mechanic and pilot, but the fact that she went from finding out she was force-sensitive to fending off a Force-User who had been using the force for years in the space of a few scenes really irritated me. I mean, Luke Skywalker is the bloody chosen one and HE didn't learn the Force that quickly. My brother says that he interpreted it as her having actually been using it her whole life and that her skills as an engineer and pilot are just her naturally using the Force to do things, but I still think that if this is the case it could have been explained a little better. Because as it is, to me, it just seems like they created a character who learned extremely high-level Force techniques within the space of a few days.

Finn's character is also a bit frustrating. While the plot itself is mostly exceptional (because, well, it's the same as A New Hope) Finn's character at the start is a bit of a weak link. He goes from completely unwilling to kill those he has been ordered to kill (because it's not right, which is fine) to then being completely happy with killing those he has been brought up with over the past 20 or-so years. I would have liked to see a little more of a struggle from him, because as it is, it seems that he basically just doesn't care about the other Stormtroopers, when he must know that they are all in the exact same position as he is. It's a bit contradictory and a weak link in the chain.

Finally... Han's death... I can't decide whether I'm upset or not. I mean, seeing as they are copying A New Hope, they did HAVE to kill off one of the older wise men (in which case THANK FUCK they did not kill off Luke). But I still can't help but feel upset about it. Which I suppose is a pretty good thing, it's supposed to bring out that emotional response and godammit it worked. I LOVED Han (almost as much as I loved Luke) and killing him is a blow and a half. What are we going to do without him.

In spite of all this though... I genuinely think it is my favourite film of 2015. It just evoked that much emotion from me.

Here's to the new trilogy!


Edit: Realised I had said "Force Unleashed Spoilers" instead of "Force Awakens Spoilers" in that first spoiler tag... Lel. Already confused.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:08:47 AM by Assassini »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #129 on: January 03, 2016, 09:39:43 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Quote
Obviously the big one is that, frankly, The Force Awakens is LITERALLY just A New Hope 2.0. In so many ways from a new R2-D2 to a new Death Star. I mean it also has a few bits and pieces from Empire Strikes back (I mean, they literally brought in a 1000-year-old tiny alien that is super wise in the ways of the Force and they don't want us to think its Yoda?). So the plot gets a bit of a smack around the head from me, frankly I expected better from J.J...


This was what kept the movie in Good category instead of Great. It felt like they lifted entire sequences detail-for-detail from Episode 4.

Offline Sevenpercentsolution

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #130 on: January 03, 2016, 10:12:26 PM »
Oh man oh man.  I didn't know this thread was here.  I saw TFA last week and I was so fiwehgowehogiwe PUMPeD.

I was so happy to see some puppetry back on the screen, I'd have loved to see more Henson-inspired stuff at work, but that's me - I've never been huge on CGI.  Can we talk about fabrics?  Is it weird I'm so excited by the fabrics, that Rey had rough-hewn natural fibres, and Kylo's was clearly thick and woven and well-made, that Poe's was sleeker and more mod, and Finn's was clearly purely for function?  I loved it.

Also I'm in the group of people that loves the Space!Boyfriends idea, though I obviously don't expect any variety of relationships to happen in the movie (they've got shit to do!) but I basically fell in love with all the characters and want to write as all of them eventually.

Offline Drowdeviant

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #131 on: January 03, 2016, 10:21:33 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

This was what kept the movie in Good category instead of Great. It felt like they lifted entire sequences detail-for-detail from Episode 4.

Very true Glyph. I only truly liked star killer base cause it was the more badass death star. Why kill planet when you can kill five at once, and steal the sun of an entire system.

Also why does Rey get to inherit the fucking MILLENNIUM FALCON when Poe is the best pilot we've seen thus far. He flew through an insanely tight gap twice for god's sake. Imagine the sorcery he could do in the Falcon.

They need to throttle Rey's character development a bit in the next one so Poe and Fin can catch up( . Also I would like it if Kylo stopped being such a whiny brat once his training with Snoke is done. Hell they should give him a bunch more scars and make him actually look like a sith!!!! :P

Oh man oh man.  I didn't know this thread was here.  I saw TFA last week and I was so fiwehgowehogiwe PUMPeD.

I was so happy to see some puppetry back on the screen, I'd have loved to see more Henson-inspired stuff at work, but that's me - I've never been huge on CGI.  Can we talk about fabrics?  Is it weird I'm so excited by the fabrics, that Rey had rough-hewn natural fibres, and Kylo's was clearly thick and woven and well-made, that Poe's was sleeker and more mod, and Finn's was clearly purely for function?  I loved it.

Also I'm in the group of people that loves the Space!Boyfriends idea, though I obviously don't expect any variety of relationships to happen in the movie (they've got shit to do!) but I basically fell in love with all the characters and want to write as all of them eventually.

*highfive* I'm glad to see someone else who's a fan of the greatest bromance I've seen in a long time.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #132 on: January 03, 2016, 10:25:52 PM »
I wasn't impressed with Starkiller Base for that reason, actually, and I think it's part of the same mindset that led to the problems with Rey. Everything in TFA has to reference ANH some way, but be BETTER AND BIGGER. Instead of a Space Station laser that kills one planet, we get a PLANET LASER that kills FIVE PLANETS. Instead of an untrained Jedi who goes from mediocre to awesome, we'll get an untrained Jedi who goes from awesome to EVEN MORE AWESOME.

And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #133 on: January 03, 2016, 10:30:36 PM »
So..having just seen this video I feel this backstory should have been in the movie...somewhere...


Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Offline Drowdeviant

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #134 on: January 03, 2016, 10:32:29 PM »
I wasn't impressed with Starkiller Base for that reason, actually, and I think it's part of the same mindset that led to the problems with Rey. Everything in TFA has to reference ANH some way, but be BETTER AND BIGGER. Instead of a Space Station laser that kills one planet, we get a PLANET LASER that kills FIVE PLANETS. Instead of an untrained Jedi who goes from mediocre to awesome, we'll get an untrained Jedi who goes from awesome to EVEN MORE AWESOME.

And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

Ok my theory on that is that the resistance was really a taskforce the republic made for destroying the first order. They obviously significantly underestimated the First Order's arsenal and so only gave the resistance that pitiful squadron of x-wings to work with while they kept all the other ships at home. When the republic fleet got destroyed so did all the ships the resistance could have called upon for assistance in destroying the starkiller base.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #135 on: January 03, 2016, 11:22:54 PM »
In A New Hope, the attack force against the Death Star was only 30 ships....against the entire armada stored within a moon sized space station. During the time that was all the Rebel Alliance had. Then four years later in Return of the Jedi they had a freaking fleet of cruisers.

To be fair though why even bother having a "Resistance" if there is another Republic that clearly opposes the First Order? I like Drow's theory but I just feel like it should have just been the Republic vs. The First Order is all.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #136 on: January 04, 2016, 01:03:56 AM »
Honestly, I also thought that Planet Death Star (is it really called the Starkiller Base? Man that's gonna fucking confuse anyone who knows of Galen Marek from the Force Unleased games) was pretty stupid. My biggest issue with it is that while Star Wars has never been particularly Hard Sci-Fi (lel, as if) it was at least possible for the suspension of disbelief. See, I can totally buy a fuck-off massive space station that can destroy a planet. You know, I can ALSO buy a planet harvesting the power of a sun to use to power a gun which can destroy multiple planets (even if it is just a bigger Death Star). What irritated me was that the reason the Death Star itself would have been effective is that it could obviously traverse the Galaxy. In this case it is the laser which has to cross the MASSIVE light-year distances of the Galaxy. I suppose the lore will explain that the laser somehow uses "light-speed" to travel, but I actually just find that harder to buy than a Death Star flying at "light-speed".

I wasn't impressed with Starkiller Base for that reason, actually, and I think it's part of the same mindset that led to the problems with Rey. Everything in TFA has to reference ANH some way, but be BETTER AND BIGGER. Instead of a Space Station laser that kills one planet, we get a PLANET LASER that kills FIVE PLANETS. Instead of an untrained Jedi who goes from mediocre to awesome, we'll get an untrained Jedi who goes from awesome to EVEN MORE AWESOME.

And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

God, yeah, exactly. Like, the LEGIT included a scene where they said "this is the size of the Death Star and THIS is the size of the Starkiller Base". Was almost a penis measuring contest.

I honestly more thought that the low level of supply of the Resistance base (also, can I say that it irritates me that we have another "resistance" instead of the actual New Republic here... It's not a resistance against an occupying force, but a fight against an invader, they should have stuck with "New Republic", but I guess didn't want to give the Legends too much credit) was pretty much only to do with them all being taken entirely by surprise. I mean, supposedly they were supplied by the New Republic, so they ought to have access to a massive fleet, but they had no time to get it together, so had to make do with their attack squad.

Plus, you have to remember, if this is another trilogy, they can't just have the massive space battle in the first film, otherwise they'll have to escalate to stupid levels in the next two. Better a smaller start here so that the end can be truly impressive.

In A New Hope, the attack force against the Death Star was only 30 ships....against the entire armada stored within a moon sized space station. During the time that was all the Rebel Alliance had. Then four years later in Return of the Jedi they had a freaking fleet of cruisers.

To be fair though why even bother having a "Resistance" if there is another Republic that clearly opposes the First Order? I like Drow's theory but I just feel like it should have just been the Republic vs. The First Order is all.

Yea, this makes much more sense to me.

I was so happy to see some puppetry back on the screen, I'd have loved to see more Henson-inspired stuff at work, but that's me - I've never been huge on CGI.  Can we talk about fabrics?  Is it weird I'm so excited by the fabrics, that Rey had rough-hewn natural fibres, and Kylo's was clearly thick and woven and well-made, that Poe's was sleeker and more mod, and Finn's was clearly purely for function?  I loved it.

No idea what you mean about the fabrics, but I actually swear to god I said the same thing about the "puppets" when I left the cinema. Admittedly, I like CGI, so I'm not bothered by that. But the fact that they actually seemed to have used legit costumes for Chewbacka and Admiral Ackbar (at least... I HOPE that was Admiral Ackbar) and a number of others, was just awesome. It made it FEEL very Star Wars-y.

Also, while I have been so down on it in this thread, I do think I ought to repeat that I enjoyed the film so fucking much. The battle scenes were actually brilliant. Every scene with fighters in it actually felt like I was on a rollercoaster because they were shot so well and because they were so fast and intense. Plus the X-Wings fighting the TIE fighters just looked glorious. The lightsaber fight was awesome too (minus the ridiculousness of two untrained scrubs fighting off a supposedly Luke Skywalker-trained individual) simply because it was very clear that everyone was actually trying to kill each other.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the flashy speed of the lightsaber fighting in the Prequels, but if you look at the sequences closely you can see that they are just kind of spinning their blades around a lot of the time for cinematic effect. It LOOKS good but it isn't actually going to do shit against the other combatant. This time though, every single strike and thrust was done with deadly intent, and that's awesome. Now I just hope they make it look even better when you actually have two DECENT fighters...

P.s. If Kylo Ren kills Luke Skywalker at some point (heck if ANYONE comes even CLOSE to being able to touch him) I'm going to have a bloody fit...

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #137 on: January 04, 2016, 01:22:57 AM »
So..having just seen this video I feel this backstory should have been in the movie...somewhere...


Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Plus...

http://funnyjunk.com/channel/starwars/Starwars+tr+8r+strikes+back+part+4/iLxfLvY

One highlight:



I fucking love this new meme.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #138 on: January 04, 2016, 05:25:03 AM »
And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

Ok my theory on that is that the resistance was really a taskforce the republic made for destroying the first order. They obviously significantly underestimated the First Order's arsenal and so only gave the resistance that pitiful squadron of x-wings to work with while they kept all the other ships at home. When the republic fleet got destroyed so did all the ships the resistance could have called upon for assistance in destroying the starkiller base.

In A New Hope, the attack force against the Death Star was only 30 ships....against the entire armada stored within a moon sized space station. During the time that was all the Rebel Alliance had. Then four years later in Return of the Jedi they had a freaking fleet of cruisers.

To be fair though why even bother having a "Resistance" if there is another Republic that clearly opposes the First Order? I like Drow's theory but I just feel like it should have just been the Republic vs. The First Order is all.

Spoilers from the supporting material; they apparently didn't think adding a coherent backstory was worth it in the film itself
Post-Return of the Jedi/Battle of Endor there was another year of conflict between the Rebellion and what was left of the Empire, culminating in a battle above Jakku (hence the crashed Star Destroyer) which the Rebellion won, albeit at a cost. With the Empire's forces shattered they were made to sign the Galactic Concordance, a peace treaty that formalized their surrender, restricted them to a few of the Core and Inner Rim worlds, prevented them from recruiting or training Stormtroopers, close down all the Imperial Academies, got rid of their capital ships and basically stopped the Empire from being able to wage war again... think of it as the Star Wars equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles.

Humiliated, defeated and with the Republic watching their every move quite a lot of Imperials didn't like the idea of accepting the treaty or that they had been defeated but, with their military still broken, they could do nothing for the moment. But one by one ships and individuals started jumping to the Unknown Regions where the Republic could not keep an eye on them. There they formed into the First Order and over the course of the next 30 years they resupplied and remilitarized. With many of the greatest minds from the Empire within their number and knowing that they didn't have the manpower to match the reformed Republic they instead tried to gain a technological edge... hence Starkiller base.

As for what the Republic was doing over this period? Well, not much, at least with regards to the First Order. Most senators thought that they were too far away to be a threat while the Chancellor said that the New Order could do what they wanted as long as they stuck to the terms of the Galactic Concordance... and when they broke the Galactic Concordance he did nothing anyway. Not all of the Republic felt this way, with Princes Leia and some other unnamed senators being heavily opposed and thinking that the Republic shouldn't allow the First Order to grow in strength and power... but they were dismissed as paranoid warmongers who were obsessed with the Empire and couldn't accept that the galaxy was now at peace. Without official support Leia and the other senators funded "the Resistance", a private group who could oppose the First Order and try to curb their ambitions.

So at the start of Force Awakens the situation is basically pre-WW2 Europe, with the First Order as Germany and the Republic as France and the UK. While the plot makes them the good guys the Resistance's real world equivalent is basically a hybrid of the private military corporation's like Blackwater who worked in places like Iraq and the Russian Special Forces who seemingly stripped off their uniforms and went to fight in Ukraine; a way to fight a war without officially going to war.

Some pretty dramatic events happen during the Force Awakens as well but because they're not given a huge amount of emphasis or backstory most people either missed them or they lacked impact. Following the reforming of the Republic the powers that be there decided that they didn't want to keep a single, static Senate on Coruscant, but instead move it every few years via election. That planet which was destroyed which had all the well dressed people on the balcony/steps? That wasn't just some random planet... that was the planet with the Senate currently on it. The well-dressed people on the balcony/steps? They're not just random well-dressed people those are the senators and the alien guy they focus the camera on was the Chancellor. As for the Republic Fleet? Well, for reasons that are left unsaid, they've decided that they should gather the entire fleet and stay as close to the Senate as possible and thus when Starkiller base blew up that system it also completely destroyed the Republic's fleet. That's why when the main characters see the big explosion they scream out "the Republic!" as it has pretty much literally been destroyed.

So, come the end of the Force Awakens the clock has basically been rolled back to put the Star Wars galaxy into a mix of the start of Episode Four and Episode Five: like the start of Episode Four the Rebellion/Resistance is now a few dozen (at best) X-Wings, a few hundred (again at best) soldiers and their bases are rag-tag affairs on whatever planet can hide them while the Empire/First Order is the most powerful military force in the galaxy while like the start of Episode Five the Empire/First Order has lost their big super weapon but is still powerful and resupplying itself in preparation of another strike.

The fact that almost none of this was seen in the film itself is both frustrating and understandable. The understandable part is that I can appreciate why they didn't want to do a lot of "political" scenes like the prequels (although I think there's a really powerful story to tell there, albeit one that probably doesn't quite fit into one of the "big" Star Wars movies). The frustrating part is that even if they don't want to explain it in depth all it would have taken is five minutes of dialogue/exposition to give some more background; when the group are at Kanata's cantina have a screen showing the Chancellor giving a TV interview saying that the First Order is no threat and that people shouldn't concern themselves, have a 10 second shot of the Starkiller's energy blast destroying a massive fleet before it hits the planets, have Rey, Finn or Han asks Leia why the Republic didn't help and have her spend a minute or so bitterly setting out the situation etc etc.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #139 on: January 04, 2016, 08:24:06 AM »
There is a shocking lack of background to the political setting, it is true. I think ultimately it is due to the fact that the story is centered around Rey and Finn and, as characters, they do not have terribly much reason to know too much about that framework. Rey lives in BFE and Finn would only get a super biased view of the galaxy. I suspect the next movie will have more of the repercussions of TFA, now that the characters have had some time to develop.

I will say that the complaints that it is too much like ANH or ESB boggle my mind. Even aside from the fact that it is 'too much like the best Star Wars movies' being odd to begin with, I think those comparisons are superficial at best. Rey is a very different character from Luke. Neither Finn or Poe take the same design space as Han. Kylo Ren had better character development than Anakin/Vader had in the entire six movie span, probably.

Sure, it follows similar tropes, but look at the original trilogy. It was practically word-for-word Campbell's Hero's Journey. Tropes happen for a reason.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #140 on: January 04, 2016, 10:27:41 AM »
Spoilers from the supporting material; they apparently didn't think adding a coherent backstory was worth it in the film itself
Post-Return of the Jedi/Battle of Endor there was another year of conflict between the Rebellion and what was left of the Empire, culminating in a battle above Jakku (hence the crashed Star Destroyer) which the Rebellion won, albeit at a cost. With the Empire's forces shattered they were made to sign the Galactic Concordance, a peace treaty that formalized their surrender, restricted them to a few of the Core and Inner Rim worlds, prevented them from recruiting or training Stormtroopers, close down all the Imperial Academies, got rid of their capital ships and basically stopped the Empire from being able to wage war again... think of it as the Star Wars equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles.

Humiliated, defeated and with the Republic watching their every move quite a lot of Imperials didn't like the idea of accepting the treaty or that they had been defeated but, with their military still broken, they could do nothing for the moment. But one by one ships and individuals started jumping to the Unknown Regions where the Republic could not keep an eye on them. There they formed into the First Order and over the course of the next 30 years they resupplied and remilitarized. With many of the greatest minds from the Empire within their number and knowing that they didn't have the manpower to match the reformed Republic they instead tried to gain a technological edge... hence Starkiller base.

As for what the Republic was doing over this period? Well, not much, at least with regards to the First Order. Most senators thought that they were too far away to be a threat while the Chancellor said that the New Order could do what they wanted as long as they stuck to the terms of the Galactic Concordance... and when they broke the Galactic Concordance he did nothing anyway. Not all of the Republic felt this way, with Princes Leia and some other unnamed senators being heavily opposed and thinking that the Republic shouldn't allow the First Order to grow in strength and power... but they were dismissed as paranoid warmongers who were obsessed with the Empire and couldn't accept that the galaxy was now at peace. Without official support Leia and the other senators funded "the Resistance", a private group who could oppose the First Order and try to curb their ambitions.

So at the start of Force Awakens the situation is basically pre-WW2 Europe, with the First Order as Germany and the Republic as France and the UK. While the plot makes them the good guys the Resistance's real world equivalent is basically a hybrid of the private military corporation's like Blackwater who worked in places like Iraq and the Russian Special Forces who seemingly stripped off their uniforms and went to fight in Ukraine; a way to fight a war without officially going to war.

Some pretty dramatic events happen during the Force Awakens as well but because they're not given a huge amount of emphasis or backstory most people either missed them or they lacked impact. Following the reforming of the Republic the powers that be there decided that they didn't want to keep a single, static Senate on Coruscant, but instead move it every few years via election. That planet which was destroyed which had all the well dressed people on the balcony/steps? That wasn't just some random planet... that was the planet with the Senate currently on it. The well-dressed people on the balcony/steps? They're not just random well-dressed people those are the senators and the alien guy they focus the camera on was the Chancellor. As for the Republic Fleet? Well, for reasons that are left unsaid, they've decided that they should gather the entire fleet and stay as close to the Senate as possible and thus when Starkiller base blew up that system it also completely destroyed the Republic's fleet. That's why when the main characters see the big explosion they scream out "the Republic!" as it has pretty much literally been destroyed.

So, come the end of the Force Awakens the clock has basically been rolled back to put the Star Wars galaxy into a mix of the start of Episode Four and Episode Five: like the start of Episode Four the Rebellion/Resistance is now a few dozen (at best) X-Wings, a few hundred (again at best) soldiers and their bases are rag-tag affairs on whatever planet can hide them while the Empire/First Order is the most powerful military force in the galaxy while like the start of Episode Five the Empire/First Order has lost their big super weapon but is still powerful and resupplying itself in preparation of another strike.

The fact that almost none of this was seen in the film itself is both frustrating and understandable. The understandable part is that I can appreciate why they didn't want to do a lot of "political" scenes like the prequels (although I think there's a really powerful story to tell there, albeit one that probably doesn't quite fit into one of the "big" Star Wars movies). The frustrating part is that even if they don't want to explain it in depth all it would have taken is five minutes of dialogue/exposition to give some more background; when the group are at Kanata's cantina have a screen showing the Chancellor giving a TV interview saying that the First Order is no threat and that people shouldn't concern themselves, have a 10 second shot of the Starkiller's energy blast destroying a massive fleet before it hits the planets, have Rey, Finn or Han asks Leia why the Republic didn't help and have her spend a minute or so bitterly setting out the situation etc etc.

You know what, another thing I thought was that during the moment fairly late in the film where the commander guy (who I assume was the new Grand Moff of the First Order) and he is giving this speech to the assembled First Order troops, they were being a tiny bit heavy handed with the Nazi symbolism. I mean, he's giving this huge speech from a podium, its impassioned and angry, he's surrounded by these red flags with a black symbol on them, all the storm-troopers even do this arm-raise salute at the end of the speech. It just felt a tad like they were beating you around the head saying "these guys are the BAD GUYS!"

There is a shocking lack of background to the political setting, it is true. I think ultimately it is due to the fact that the story is centered around Rey and Finn and, as characters, they do not have terribly much reason to know too much about that framework. Rey lives in BFE and Finn would only get a super biased view of the galaxy. I suspect the next movie will have more of the repercussions of TFA, now that the characters have had some time to develop.

I will say that the complaints that it is too much like ANH or ESB boggle my mind. Even aside from the fact that it is 'too much like the best Star Wars movies' being odd to begin with, I think those comparisons are superficial at best. Rey is a very different character from Luke. Neither Finn or Poe take the same design space as Han. Kylo Ren had better character development than Anakin/Vader had in the entire six movie span, probably.

Sure, it follows similar tropes, but look at the original trilogy. It was practically word-for-word Campbell's Hero's Journey. Tropes happen for a reason.

Really? I mean, the whole plot of the film is "get the secret data to the Resistance [Rebellion] so that they can destroy the First Order's [Empire's] new super weapon, but because of circumstances it will have to all be down to a rag-tag group of fighters attacking a space station the size of a planet [moon]. But it's necessary because said station has the power to destroy five planets [one planet] and is recharging to fire again, presumably [definitely] at the resistance [Rebel] base".

Now it's very true that the characters are very different, and that's great (I mean, I also disagree about Vader but whatever) but one cannot deny, the plot of the film more than just superficially similar to the originals.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #141 on: January 04, 2016, 10:40:04 AM »
Quote
Really? I mean, the whole plot of the film is "get the secret data to the Resistance [Rebellion] so that they can destroy the First Order's [Empire's] new super weapon, but because of circumstances it will have to all be down to a rag-tag group of fighters attacking a space station the size of a planet [moon]. But it's necessary because said station has the power to destroy five planets [one planet] and is recharging to fire again, presumably [definitely] at the resistance [Rebel] base".

Now it's very true that the characters are very different, and that's great (I mean, I also disagree about Vader but whatever) but one cannot deny, the plot of the film more than just superficially similar to the originals.

Except the secret data is a McGuffin that is unrelated to the superweapon. And while the trench run is arguably a bit much, the set piece of a heroic starfighter sequence is standard to the series, given it is in every single movie in the series. I cannot fault them for that one. But the key thing is that the Hero's Journey is different in this particular sequence.

It is a story about how Rey moves past her clinging to a past she doesn't know in order to move toward the future. It is a story about how Finn moves from fear of the First Order to being a hero. It is a story about how a father tries to save his son. The set pieces may have familiarity, but within the setting they make perfect sense. Of course the First Order, idolizing the Empire and trying to exceed it, would attempt to recreate their most potent weapon. Of course the Republic would falter and lead to a ragtag group fighting against the might of the First Order. The story is different and that is what is ultimately key.

I think there are a lot of similarities, but none that stand out as "this is literally just there for nostalgia." By contrast, the prequels had a lot of the latter. We just have a lot more to complain about for those.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #142 on: January 04, 2016, 10:58:42 AM »
Except the secret data is a McGuffin that is unrelated to the superweapon. And while the trench run is arguably a bit much, the set piece of a heroic starfighter sequence is standard to the series, given it is in every single movie in the series. I cannot fault them for that one. But the key thing is that the Hero's Journey is different in this particular sequence.

It is a story about how Rey moves past her clinging to a past she doesn't know in order to move toward the future. It is a story about how Finn moves from fear of the First Order to being a hero. It is a story about how a father tries to save his son. The set pieces may have familiarity, but within the setting they make perfect sense. Of course the First Order, idolizing the Empire and trying to exceed it, would attempt to recreate their most potent weapon. Of course the Republic would falter and lead to a ragtag group fighting against the might of the First Order. The story is different and that is what is ultimately key.

I think there are a lot of similarities, but none that stand out as "this is literally just there for nostalgia." By contrast, the prequels had a lot of the latter. We just have a lot more to complain about for those.

You make a fair point, but those character bits are sort of individual scenes as opposed to the overarching story of the movie. They happen within the broader scope of trying to stop the Death Star 3.0. However, I'm not saying that's there for nostalgia, I actually didn't feel like they were trying to hint towards A New Hope really. It just felt  little more like they had struggled to come up with anything new. I mean... Something ALWAYS has to be threatening to blow up a planet in one of J.J.'s films. However, as I've previously said, I am kind of hoping that this slightly lacklustre story is in order to build up to a more awesome trilogy.

Because it would be truly AWESOME if we could see Luke being all badass and teaching Rey. It would be even better if they could somehow involve the Yuuzhan Vong (or some other kind of invading force) because it would actually be super cool to see the "oh we're so evil all the time" First Order have to settle their differences with the Resistance in order to unite. Because that would be a different kind of film! If it stays the way its going, we're just going to have the original trilogy all over again with the First Order as the primary villain the whole time.

I think basically I'm saying I still am sore about the loss of the EU.

Also, speaking of nostalgia. The few things in there which did make me feel nostalgic were all brilliant touches in my opinion. Like the whole "accidentally switching on the space chess set" was fucking great. Even if it was basically a moment of taking nostalgia and rubbing it right in my face, it worked! Plus, while I think someone else said that the reveal of Luke was a cop-out, I think that was actually one of the most powerful moments of the film... Although that may be because Luke Skywalker has always been one of my absolute favourite fictional heroes (and Mark Hamill is back on screen! Fucking yaaaaaas!)

P.s. I actually think it's quite "cool" to hate on the Prequels. Going back to them I feel that a lot of what was in them is pretty awesome. Also, I have to admit, I'm not sure exactly what elements of the Prequels felt like they were trying to be nostalgic. I'm sure you're right that they did, but no particular scenes come to mind at the moment.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #143 on: January 04, 2016, 11:02:30 AM »
Because it would be truly AWESOME if we could see Luke being all badass and teaching Rey. It would be even better if they could somehow involve the Yuuzhan Vong (or some other kind of invading force) because it would actually be super cool to see the "oh we're so evil all the time" First Order have to settle their differences with the Resistance in order to unite. Because that would be a different kind of film! If it stays the way its going, we're just going to have the original trilogy all over again with the First Order as the primary villain the whole time.

*Sigh* that's actually what I was told the new Trilogy would be about. I heard it would be a condencesed version of the Yuuzhan invasion and wed see Rebels and Imps fighting together against the endless wave of the Vong.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #144 on: January 04, 2016, 11:14:24 AM »
*Sigh* that's actually what I was told the new Trilogy would be about. I heard it would be a condencesed version of the Yuuzhan invasion and wed see Rebels and Imps fighting together against the endless wave of the Vong.

There's still hope! Never give up! Never surrender! (Oh wait, wrong sci-fi film...)

Back in the day, it seemed to be widely hoped that episodes 7-9 would be based around the Thrawn Trilogy. As I understand that bares some resemblance to what we can see now, in that it involves some Imperial Remnant fighting against the New Republic.

I think a lot of it was focused around Luke and the New Jedi Order though. Plus Mara Jade and shit like that.

And while I would love to see a whole trilogy focused on Luke Skywalker, I do get that they can't do that from a Hollywood point of view. Not only would that not really attract a new legion of younger fans if it was focused on an older character (and it means they'd not be able to sell as many toys). But it would probably also be logistically tricky filming the ageing Mark Hamill doing all the super awesome things that Luke is capable of... Doesn't mean I'm going to give up hope though!

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #145 on: January 04, 2016, 11:41:12 AM »
I'll admit. I don't really HATE the story the prequels are trying to sell me on. Except Phantom Menace.

But I dislike the poor dialogue because they let Lucas write the script without better revision processes. I dislike how the abuse of green screen makes scenes feel exceptionally flat and non-dynamic. I dislike how spectacle seems to be the care more than cinematography. Things like that add up for me. I still think Revenge of the Sith is arguably on par with Return of the Jedi though as a whole.

...I'm curious about how things will turn out in the new trilogy though. I'll admit. My personal pet theory is that the First Order is building up because they see a complacent Republic and realize there is some greater threat from the Unknown Regions. I might be driven to this theory based on the fact that the official visual guides specifically label Rakata Prime, despite throwing away KotOR from the canon.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #146 on: January 04, 2016, 01:09:59 PM »
I think ultimately it is due to the fact that the story is centered around Rey and Finn and, as characters, they do not have terribly much reason to know too much about that framework. Rey lives in BFE and Finn would only get a super biased view of the galaxy.

I appreciate that a more politically focused film, while quite possibly being an excellent story, doesn't really fit in a "main" Star Wars movie; people want lightsabers and X-wings and TIE fighters and the Force in a Star Wars movie, not political dramas. And that's setting aside the fact that too much set in and around the Senate would remind people too much of the little loved prequels.

But as I said, it would only take a few minutes of exposition to make it all at least make sense and not leave me in the position I was coming out of the film without having read any of the supporting material and going "well, what the hell were the Republic doing throughout that?". In fact, here's my back of a matchbox attempt to do that exposition and fit it into the film:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Scene: While at Kanata's castle/cantina. As the main characters walk by the camera focuses on a view screen where a news reporter can be seen. The sound of the broadcast becomes louder and replaces the background chatter.

Reporter: We cut now to the interview with Chancellor Lanever Villecham speaking from Hosnian Prime, the current seat of the Galactic Senate.

[Cut to the Chancellor]

Unseen Interviewer: Chancellor, people are concerned with reports that the First Order has been conducting raids outside the Unknown Regions. Can you comment.

Villecham: I can assure the public there is no threat from the First Order. They, like us, remember how much the last war cost us all... in money, materials and lives. This remnant of the Empire simply wish to be left alone to live their own lives, as do we, and despite what the more war mongering of my colleagues may want, we will not provoke them. If they were to breach the terms of the peace treaty we signed 30 years ago we would respond but there has been no credible evidence that they have or intend to.

[Cut back to the bar, continue on with main characters]



Scene: As the Starkiller base fires it's weapon have a shot of a large number of capital ships in space within the Hosnian system. Almost all of them are caught in the weapon's blast and destroyed.



Scene: The main characters are back at the Resistance base. One of Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe talks to Leia

Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe: What were the Republic doing while the First Order were growing strong?

Leia [bitterly]: Nothing. I warned them. I warned them the First Order didn't want peace. They said I was paranoid. They said that I was in love with war. They said I hated the Empire more than I loved peace. They said I could never forget or forgive the destruction of Alderaan. They said that I saw the Empire in every shadow and Grand Moff Tarkin in every First Order face. So they dismissed by comments and they laughed at me. All I could do was fund this Resistance and hope that they were right. But they were wrong. And now the Chancellor, the Senate itself, the Republic Fleet and twenty billion innocents have paid the ultimate price for them being wrong.


Now, I'm not going to claim that's any good; I'm not a script writer and I took about five minutes to write it down. But surely something like that wouldn't have taken too long, wouldn't have detracted from the rest of the film and would have given us enough exposition/background that we knew what had happened and why.

...I'm curious about how things will turn out in the new trilogy though. I'll admit. My personal pet theory is that the First Order is building up because they see a complacent Republic and realize there is some greater threat from the Unknown Regions. I might be driven to this theory based on the fact that the official visual guides specifically label Rakata Prime, despite throwing away KotOR from the canon.

Honestly, I think that's too risky and this trilogy will largely be about minimizing risk and coming as close as possible to guaranteeing return. In this case that means largely aping the overall plot of the original trilogy. So in the next film we'll get more of Rey's backstory and her training with Luke (and quite possibly doing a parallel with Ren's backstory, him training with Snoke and a bit more on the Knights of Ren) combined with Poe and Finn doing more conventional action/adventure stuff, much like how Empire Strikes Back had Luke doing training while Han and Leia went off on adventures/the run.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #147 on: January 04, 2016, 01:15:21 PM »
I think the main issue there is you'll note the camera never leaves the main characters for the most part. I think there are maybe two or three shots that are focused on unknown characters at most, but usually tied to some key plot device. It might be doable, but I think it would be a little poor for pacing. I think the distinction between the Resistance and Republic is not well established though in the movie itself. I just don't think it is terribly NECESSARY. It is world-building over the story, but nothing about the background really needed more establishing except in the larger context of what we knew from before.

If you take Episode VII on its own, I feel it is marvelously compact, is what I mean by that.

I also think they won't retread as much in the next film. The only thing we've heard about it is that it is the "weirdest" Star Wars script yet. And that JJ wishes he were directing it. I suspect that there was some feel that they had to play it a bit safe for TFA after the prequels and with new stewardship. I think now we'll see some drastically new things.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
As an aside, I think that one thing that is distinctly different is a note on Rey's behavior during the lightsaber fight. She definitely called on the Force. I don't think anybody argues that. But look at how her fighting style changes - it matches note for note with Luke in Return of the Jedi where he calls on the dark side. My personal other pet theory is that we'll see Rey fall to the dark side as Kylo Ren gets his redemption arc.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:18:38 PM by AnneReinard »

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #148 on: January 04, 2016, 03:15:23 PM »
I appreciate that a more politically focused film, while quite possibly being an excellent story, doesn't really fit in a "main" Star Wars movie; people want lightsabers and X-wings and TIE fighters and the Force in a Star Wars movie, not political dramas. And that's setting aside the fact that too much set in and around the Senate would remind people too much of the little loved prequels.

But as I said, it would only take a few minutes of exposition to make it all at least make sense and not leave me in the position I was coming out of the film without having read any of the supporting material and going "well, what the hell were the Republic doing throughout that?". In fact, here's my back of a matchbox attempt to do that exposition and fit it into the film:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Scene: While at Kanata's castle/cantina. As the main characters walk by the camera focuses on a view screen where a news reporter can be seen. The sound of the broadcast becomes louder and replaces the background chatter.

Reporter: We cut now to the interview with Chancellor Lanever Villecham speaking from Hosnian Prime, the current seat of the Galactic Senate.

[Cut to the Chancellor]

Unseen Interviewer: Chancellor, people are concerned with reports that the First Order has been conducting raids outside the Unknown Regions. Can you comment.

Villecham: I can assure the public there is no threat from the First Order. They, like us, remember how much the last war cost us all... in money, materials and lives. This remnant of the Empire simply wish to be left alone to live their own lives, as do we, and despite what the more war mongering of my colleagues may want, we will not provoke them. If they were to breach the terms of the peace treaty we signed 30 years ago we would respond but there has been no credible evidence that they have or intend to.

[Cut back to the bar, continue on with main characters]



Scene: As the Starkiller base fires it's weapon have a shot of a large number of capital ships in space within the Hosnian system. Almost all of them are caught in the weapon's blast and destroyed.



Scene: The main characters are back at the Resistance base. One of Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe talks to Leia

Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe: What were the Republic doing while the First Order were growing strong?

Leia [bitterly]: Nothing. I warned them. I warned them the First Order didn't want peace. They said I was paranoid. They said that I was in love with war. They said I hated the Empire more than I loved peace. They said I could never forget or forgive the destruction of Alderaan. They said that I saw the Empire in every shadow and Grand Moff Tarkin in every First Order face. So they dismissed by comments and they laughed at me. All I could do was fund this Resistance and hope that they were right. But they were wrong. And now the Chancellor, the Senate itself, the Republic Fleet and twenty billion innocents have paid the ultimate price for them being wrong.


Now, I'm not going to claim that's any good; I'm not a script writer and I took about five minutes to write it down. But surely something like that wouldn't have taken too long, wouldn't have detracted from the rest of the film and would have given us enough exposition/background that we knew what had happened and why.

Honestly, I think that's too risky and this trilogy will largely be about minimizing risk and coming as close as possible to guaranteeing return. In this case that means largely aping the overall plot of the original trilogy. So in the next film we'll get more of Rey's backstory and her training with Luke (and quite possibly doing a parallel with Ren's backstory, him training with Snoke and a bit more on the Knights of Ren) combined with Poe and Finn doing more conventional action/adventure stuff, much like how Empire Strikes Back had Luke doing training while Han and Leia went off on adventures/the run.

I agree actually, I think a few scenes like that would have been excellent material for building up the backstory. But I guess it's too late for it now, so I guess we have to deal with it. It's just a shame overall really.

I'll admit that what I think will happen and what I want to happen are two rather different things. My view entirely follows the plot of the EU, in that I'd love to see a massive political and moral thing where the First Order and New Republic have to team up to take on an external threat. Potentially have the Sith and Jedi fighting alongside each other (or have the Sith switch sides or something). But I agree that my FIRST impression was that Episode VIII will just be the Empire Strikes Back 2.0. I.e. Finn will be in dire straits most of the time while Rey trains with Luke (and because its her she'll obviously become better than Luke and I'll just have to sit in the back-row seething...).

I think the main issue there is you'll note the camera never leaves the main characters for the most part. I think there are maybe two or three shots that are focused on unknown characters at most, but usually tied to some key plot device. It might be doable, but I think it would be a little poor for pacing. I think the distinction between the Resistance and Republic is not well established though in the movie itself. I just don't think it is terribly NECESSARY. It is world-building over the story, but nothing about the background really needed more establishing except in the larger context of what we knew from before.

If you take Episode VII on its own, I feel it is marvelously compact, is what I mean by that.

I also think they won't retread as much in the next film. The only thing we've heard about it is that it is the "weirdest" Star Wars script yet. And that JJ wishes he were directing it. I suspect that there was some feel that they had to play it a bit safe for TFA after the prequels and with new stewardship. I think now we'll see some drastically new things.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
As an aside, I think that one thing that is distinctly different is a note on Rey's behavior during the lightsaber fight. She definitely called on the Force. I don't think anybody argues that. But look at how her fighting style changes - it matches note for note with Luke in Return of the Jedi where he calls on the dark side. My personal other pet theory is that we'll see Rey fall to the dark side as Kylo Ren gets his redemption arc.


Now THIS is something I too noticed. You are entirely right. If anyone knows anything from even just the previous films then one knows that the Sith draw their strength from their emotions and Rey was obviously all raging on Ben during their duel. There was a shot where the camera zoomed in on her face and I couldn't tell if she were just becoming serene and peaceful or whether she was actually just getting exceptionally pissed off with the guy she watched murder Han Solo.

From a Hollywood perspective though, it would be bold as brass to have a main character turn evil. I mean, how would they sell action figures? But I would fucking love to see a story-line with Rey falling to the Dark Side and then Luke saves her. Or hell, maybe even Ben saves her (I'm not calling him Kylo). While not what I'm hoping for, that WOULD be extremely legit.

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #149 on: January 04, 2016, 03:33:51 PM »
If the new films never ever touch the vong, I would be so happy, personally. I don't quite see how anyone can really like the Vong in star wars.