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Author Topic: The new Star Wars  (Read 8579 times)

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Online CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2015, 05:49:33 PM »
I don't think it was so much about pouting about their failures as it was making sure the next generation was ready.

In Revenge of the Sith both Obi-Wan and Yoda were unable to kill both Sidious and Vader. Yoda was only able to hold Sidous to a draw and had to flee before clones showed up and gunned him down. Obi-Wan couldn't go through with killing someone he loved as a brother.

So with that said what else could they do? The whole reason the Jedi went into hiding was so their beliefs and teachings could be passed onto others who would be able to defeat the Sith Lord in charge. It may be the slow route but what else could the Jedi do at that point other than being killed?

By surviving they ensured that when someone strong enough in the Force could be taught properly and be ready to stop the evil.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I think this is why Luke went into hiding to begin with. When Kylo Ren destroyed his order he realized he couldn't stop his nephew and knew that one day someone, somewhere would be able to. And that someone needed his guidance or they would fail in their mission. Plus for all we know Rey may be related to Luke but was captured and taken away from him. I wouldn't be surprised if they were family but some idiot separated them by force. Either for Rey's protection as no one would look on Jakku or for profit for a child slave


Offline hamish1024

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2015, 12:20:00 PM »
Mine was

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn: We use the Force!
Han: That's not how the Force works!

I'm still smiling at

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
You probably don't recognize me because of my red arm!!


Unexpectedly good cameo

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #102 on: December 25, 2015, 04:32:29 PM »
*Wishes Captain Phasma had a bigger role* well at least since she wasn't killed on screen she has a chance to appear later on. ~<3

Offline Matttheman89

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2015, 06:54:07 PM »
It's been confirmed that she'll be back for at least the next movie, so I'm sure she'll be given more to do in Episode VIII. The character's basically on the road to becoming the Boba Fett of the Sequel Trilogy in terms of popularity, so they have to know it'd be a missed opportunity not to use her in a larger capacity.

And I have to say, I hope they give her a bigger role as well. I like her as well.  :D

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2015, 11:31:54 AM »
HaAHAHHAA oh god I love all the funny images people are coming out with now :-)


Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2015, 03:27:36 PM »
So I've finally seen it, and there are quite a few missteps.

Just in Case
Like the New Order is a total flub in my opinion, and honestly it's the problem with the whole Star Wars universe, but it's really highlighted in this film. Why can't it just be New Republic versus New Order, why has there got to be a Rebellion... oops I mean Resistance, totally different.

I also don't think Rey (Ray, Rae?) is nearly as fertile ground a Finn for a new feel. Seriously, dirt world waif has force powers, haven't we done this twice, and this time we don't have the novelty of watching a good person go darkside. :P

The disillusioned Storm Trooper angle is great (Note that I have a passing knowledge of the expanded universe, so naturally it was already done there).

I mean, what was the functional difference between Jakku and Tatooine?

There were three elements in this movie:

There was the unique fresh elements. Fantastic.
There was the homages. Which are to be expected.
But there was also the pandering to the fandom which really hamstrung the whole thing I thought.

I mean seriously the villain wants to be Vadar Junior, and yes it's established, but it's also really just pander.

Fun and fantastic movie, but honestly, better than all the prequels combined and anything George Lucas has ever done? (Heard that in the theater)

Nah.

Not going to stop me from getting the nine-film boxset though.

Offline Stella

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2015, 02:43:49 AM »
Having seen the movie (Really enjoyed it and like it!) and also being a huge fan of the expanded universe, I can clearly say that "The Force Awakens" used story elements/ideas from the original expanded universe!

Spoilers: Only Read If You've Seen the Movie
The character of Ben Solo in name, character and personal story idea is a clear combination of Ben Skywalker and Jacen Solo from the post Return of the Jedi EU. Really, he is just Jacen Solo with the first name Ben and like Jacen turned to the Dark Side and followed in the footsteps of Vader/Anakin Skywalker. The whole character idea was obviously inspired by the EU!

The character of Rey seems very much inspired by Jaina Solo to me. Not as nearly a direct usage/copy like Ben Solo is of Jacen Solo, however, I'm pretty sure the idea for her was inspired by Jaina!

Also, the First Order arising from the fragments of the Empire very much resembles many of the post fall of the Empire Imperial resurgences from the EU. It especially resembles the Dark Empire and sequel arcs from the Dark Horse comics with a resurgent Empire on the rise behind a powerful force user (Though not the Clone Emperor!) with a hyperspace capable planet smashing super weapon that has the New Republic/Resistance on the run. So, I'm thinking they were gleaning ideas there as well


Those are the character and plot ideas that seem the most heavily borrowed from/inspired by the original EU to me! Thoughts?

Definitely. I felt quite ripped off about that. Rey was basically Jaina - great fighter, great pilot, mechanical intuition. And Kylo Ren was Jacen. The Starkiller (clever nod to Luke's original surname - !) was like Darksaber, or the Sun Crusher, just ... bigger.

I'm a long-time SW fan who has been pretty indifferent in the lead-up to this installment. Saw it today for the first time. It was okay. It did what it was supposed to and not much more. It was okay.

Online AmberStarfire

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2015, 06:22:11 AM »
This story was on the news today. Apparently Rey's been left out of a lot of Star Wars merchandise and people are asking why.

Note: There are mild spoilers in that article.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/star-wars-fans-ask-wheresrey-as-the-force-awakens-hero-left-out-of-merchandise/news-story/8967d9b6c1c13fd5a3a0591248965ee4

Online CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #108 on: December 31, 2015, 04:34:59 PM »
While I will agree the movie had its flaws I am worried about one thing.

Yes the movie had A New Hope skeleton setup for the plot...I'm worried the next two movies will follow suit and have a Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi skeleton. The end of the Force Awakens gives off a few hints to some plot points from Empire Strikes Back which is making me think that will indeed happen. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed The Force Awakens but I don't want that structure to follow for all three movies.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #109 on: December 31, 2015, 04:40:23 PM »
While I will agree the movie had its flaws I am worried about one thing.

Yes the movie had A New Hope skeleton setup for the plot...I'm worried the next two movies will follow suit and have a Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi skeleton. The end of the Force Awakens gives off a few hints to some plot points from Empire Strikes Back which is making me think that will indeed happen. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed The Force Awakens but I don't want that structure to follow for all three movies.
I get a feeling that's what's going to happen. Call it a hunch.

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #110 on: December 31, 2015, 04:53:03 PM »
Can't believe I just saw this thread! lol

Personally, I enjoyed the movie. As a HUUUUUGE fan of both Star Wars and the EU, I was very reluctant when they washed away everything, and it still stings. However, I was actually pleased with how things turned out. The movie wasn't great. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Continue the Star Wars Universe via a sequel. And I am really loving that Rey is the main protagonist as long as they don't make her related to anyone. That trope is getting really old, really fast. Let her be her own person that the audience can connect to so when she becomes a Jedi, the theme is similar to Luke. Anybody has the power to become something special, not just because you're related to someone special.

I am a little disappointed in the film aspect of The Force Awakens. It was pretty much a movie that was made for a sequel. And being the first of a trilogy, I think that's a bummer. Episodes I and IV could stand on their own merits with storytelling. VII couldn't really do that, which is a shame.

I'm still thinking of forming a petition for putting Kyle Katarn in the new movies. He needs to be canon and fast!

Online CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2015, 04:55:45 PM »
I get a feeling that's what's going to happen. Call it a hunch.


Well may as well kill the hopes of those out there on this site wanting to see Rey in a Slave Leia outfit. Carrie Fisher actually told Daisey Riddler to not be a slave like her.

Plus its Disney and they are planning on banning the Slave Leia merchandise anyway.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2015, 05:04:21 PM »
If Rey isn't related to anyone I'll be surprised.

But this she's the main protagonist stuff is perhaps not the most accurate statement. It's fairly obvious that she and Finn are sharing the protagonist spot (depending on how literally you define the word). They both held the talisman. *shrugs* They've both refused the call.

Online CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2015, 05:10:30 PM »
Did the trailers leading up to it not feel like a bait and switch as to who would be the Force Sensitive one? I mean I had my suspicions Rey would be but seeing Finn use a lightsaber made me think he was going to be one as well and was a big reason why he defected.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #114 on: December 31, 2015, 05:22:09 PM »
Did the trailers leading up to it not feel like a bait and switch as to who would be the Force Sensitive one? I mean I had my suspicions Rey would be but seeing Finn use a lightsaber made me think he was going to be one as well and was a big reason why he defected.
He still might be. Remember, in New Hope Luke wasn't that great in the Force department either.

Just in Case
Rey's actually showing an insane amount of force sensitivity for the lack of training she's had. Also Finn did go toe to toe with Vadar Jr. without getting immediately killed or de-limbing himself so there's that


Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #115 on: December 31, 2015, 05:29:24 PM »
He still might be. Remember, in New Hope Luke wasn't that great in the Force department either.

Just in Case
Rey's actually showing an insane amount of force sensitivity for the lack of training she's had. Also Finn did go toe to toe with Vadar Jr. without getting immediately killed or de-limbing himself so there's that

Finn was also trained in combat as a Stormtrooper, so that probably helped some. And we never saw him use the Force from what I recall. So it isn't all that impressive.
If Rey isn't related to anyone I'll be surprised.

But this she's the main protagonist stuff is perhaps not the most accurate statement. It's fairly obvious that she and Finn are sharing the protagonist spot (depending on how literally you define the word). They both held the talisman. *shrugs* They've both refused the call.

I was referring more to going the way of the Jedi, ala Luke. To me that's the main protagonist's role. Though I think Rey, Finn, and Poe will all share the limelight just like in the OT

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #116 on: December 31, 2015, 05:32:24 PM »
Did the trailers leading up to it not feel like a bait and switch as to who would be the Force Sensitive one? I mean I had my suspicions Rey would be but seeing Finn use a lightsaber made me think he was going to be one as well and was a big reason why he defected.

Oh it was a TOTAL bait and switch. But, one I actually liked. I can really get behind Rey's character and think it's a great change of pace for their to be a stronger female lead role in Star Wars. And, I always loved Jaina Solo, so it's nice to see something similar.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2015, 05:43:18 PM »
My problem is that she doesn't have much in the way of flaws. She's really close to feeling Sue-ish


Online CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2015, 05:56:04 PM »
I felt her obsession with staying on Jakku to wait for her parents was a flaw. That and her running away after her little vision was pretty close to one as well. It caused a couple of problems and next movie we may see her feel responsible
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn's Coma and Han's death for not acting sooner


Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #119 on: December 31, 2015, 05:58:57 PM »
He still might be. Remember, in New Hope Luke wasn't that great in the Force department either.

Just in Case
Rey's actually showing an insane amount of force sensitivity for the lack of training she's had. Also Finn did go toe to toe with Vadar Jr. without getting immediately killed or de-limbing himself so there's that

Do we still need to spoiler tag everything at this point?

Assuming we do
It's worth going back to watch a New Hope to remind yourself how utterly useless Luke is for 95% of the movie. Basically right up to the final Death Star battle whenever he's in a situation that's even vaguely dangerous he requires one of Obi Wan, Han/Chewie or Leia to save him. His biggest achievement is being able to fire two torpedoes down a small gap... and even then that's only because Han came in to save the day. For almost the entirety of a New Hope Luke's uselessness actually makes life more difficult for those around him and as such we get to see a real journey in his development. To use MOBA terminology (of all things) Luke's role is basically the definition of a "carry"; a character that starts off being so bad that your best tactic is basically to keep them out the way and hope no-one notices them but by the end is the most powerful character out there.

Rey in contrast starts out pretty awesome already. Seemingly without any training and little more than Ren diving into her head she's able to use Jedi mind tricks (did Luke manage that till the third film?) and not use use Force telekinesis but overpower a trained force user in a contest of their skill (again, did Luke show any ability at that until at least the second film and heavy training under Yoda?). Then there's her hand to hand fighting skills, her ability to immediately pilot the Falcon like an ace, the fact she knows just as much (if not more) about it than Solo etc etc. While Luke was constantly in real peril and needing to be saved in a New Hope during the Force Awakens there's only really one similar moment with Rey (when Ren holds her in place). She's not just shown an incredible amount of force sensitivity, she's shown an incredible amount of overall badassness which I think may actually detract somewhat from her character over three movies; she's so talented now that she either has to become insanely good at everything or experience little in the way of growth.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2015, 06:01:25 PM »
I felt her obsession with staying on Jakku to wait for her parents was a flaw. That and her running away after her little vision was pretty close to one as well. It caused a couple of problems and next movie we may see her feel responsible
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn's Coma and Han's death for not acting sooner
Dude, try to keep spoilers in mind.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
What's her other flaw paresthesia? I would lump that more in with her refusal of the Call rather than an actual character flaw. It's also obviously reconciled with the ending of the movie, rather handily too.

So I'm upping her to full on Mary Sue in my book. She's too good at too much with no other real hangups.

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2015, 06:12:11 PM »
Do we still need to spoiler tag everything at this point?

Assuming we do
It's worth going back to watch a New Hope to remind yourself how utterly useless Luke is for 95% of the movie. Basically right up to the final Death Star battle whenever he's in a situation that's even vaguely dangerous he requires one of Obi Wan, Han/Chewie or Leia to save him. His biggest achievement is being able to fire two torpedoes down a small gap... and even then that's only because Han came in to save the day. For almost the entirety of a New Hope Luke's uselessness actually makes life more difficult for those around him and as such we get to see a real journey in his development. To use MOBA terminology (of all things) Luke's role is basically the definition of a "carry"; a character that starts off being so bad that your best tactic is basically to keep them out the way and hope no-one notices them but by the end is the most powerful character out there.

Rey in contrast starts out pretty awesome already. Seemingly without any training and little more than Ren diving into her head she's able to use Jedi mind tricks (did Luke manage that till the third film?) and not use use Force telekinesis but overpower a trained force user in a contest of their skill (again, did Luke show any ability at that until at least the second film and heavy training under Yoda?). Then there's her hand to hand fighting skills, her ability to immediately pilot the Falcon like an ace, the fact she knows just as much (if not more) about it than Solo etc etc. While Luke was constantly in real peril and needing to be saved in a New Hope during the Force Awakens there's only really one similar moment with Rey (when Ren holds her in place). She's not just shown an incredible amount of force sensitivity, she's shown an incredible amount of overall badassness which I think may actually detract somewhat from her character over three movies; she's so talented now that she either has to become insanely good at everything or experience little in the way of growth.

Couldn't agree more with the lack of a flaw point. Some of the things she did just didn't make sense and pulled me out of the movie. The ONLY reason I looked past it was because it's Star Wars and it's allowed to get away with some things. And I'm assuming there will be more explanation in the coming years. So I'm cautiously going to let them slide for now.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rey's ego get the better of her now that I think about it. That'd be an interesting flaw that we really haven't seen done in Star Wars movies. She's good, and she could know it. But, that could tempt her into overestimating things.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2015, 06:22:13 PM »
Couldn't agree more with the lack of a flaw point. Some of the things she did just didn't make sense and pulled me out of the movie. The ONLY reason I looked past it was because it's Star Wars and it's allowed to get away with some things. And I'm assuming there will be more explanation in the coming years. So I'm cautiously going to let them slide for now.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rey's ego get the better of her now that I think about it. That'd be an interesting flaw that we really haven't seen done in Star Wars movies. She's good, and she could know it. But, that could tempt her into overestimating things.
Except she doesn't have much in the way of pride or ego. So backpedaling would probably be seen as dumbing down or "ruining" her. The problem with this kind of thing is once you go up you can't go back down and they started at the tippy top.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Also remember that anyone who thinks that Finn's battle with Vadar Jr. was unexpected because of his training remember that A.) He was a storm trooper (you know those guys who go to school to not hit anything and Wilhelm scream). B.) He wasn't a particularly good storm trooper, freaking out on fight one. C.) He was a janitor. So yeah. Pretty freaking impressive from where I sit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 06:23:18 PM by Inkidu »

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2015, 06:45:03 PM »
Couldn't agree more with the lack of a flaw point. Some of the things she did just didn't make sense and pulled me out of the movie. The ONLY reason I looked past it was because it's Star Wars and it's allowed to get away with some things. And I'm assuming there will be more explanation in the coming years. So I'm cautiously going to let them slide for now.

I imagine there will certainly be explanations given and you can see people attempting to rationalise most of it away already; she's been a single woman on a rough-and-tumble frontier world so obviously she knows how to fight, she a scavenger so she has to know how ships work etc etc. Likewise if the predictions that she's Luke's daughter and/or previously received Jedi training before being stranded come true then that gives them a way to explain away why she's so strong with the Force.

But the issue for me isn't just the lack of explanation (although that is one; for me the best stories, even if part of a series, work on a self-contained level as well) it's also the very fact that she's so brilliant at everything in the first place. To go back to New Hope again would that have told a better story if Luke had been great at everything from the beginning, able to outduel Vader both with the lightsaber and the force, as good a pilot of the Falcon as Solo, knowing just as much about fixing it as Solo and Chewie etc etc? Hell, even little things like him being able to fight off the Tusken Raiders or not needing Obi Wan to protect him in the Cantina? For me it wouldn't. It may be a cliche and a trope but "the Hero's Journey" has become a cliche and a trope because it works and what Luke goes on is basically the definitive Hero's Journey. Take that away and it all becomes less effective.

I also can't just give them a free pass on it because it's something they have actually covered before (as set out above). While they never did the same thing for Anakin that's because his background and plot were different; by the time we meet him as an adult it's already been established that he's been training for years as a Jedi and that's he's got great skill, power and potential but lacks experience and control. His important journey is how he became a villain and while they may not have been well executed (partly down to the script, partly down to the performance) it was at least something they tried to show and develop.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rey's ego get the better of her now that I think about it. That'd be an interesting flaw that we really haven't seen done in Star Wars movies. She's good, and she could know it. But, that could tempt her into overestimating things.

That's largely just Anakin's flaw that caused him to fall; I'm the Chosen One, I've got all this power, surely I can save the ones I love? Oh, the Dark Side... well, I'm the one who's meant to bring balance to the force right? Surely I've got the power to control that?

In fact it's hard to think of too many Jedi in either the official or the Legends/EU stuff who had a tragic fall (as opposed to just being power hungry) where over confidence and ego wouldn't be a significant element.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2015, 06:51:57 PM »
Yeah, I can only imagine the shit-storm if they tried to nerf Rey. I think at best one could be hoped to be called a misogynist. :|

Actually, I think I'm going to bow out of this one. I didn't find the movie great enough to want to field more in those lines of criticism. :P