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Author Topic: The new Star Wars  (Read 8610 times)

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Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #175 on: January 06, 2016, 12:27:47 PM »
Well, I think we have a very different interpretation of the duel, so that is part of it. I felt Rey was struggling until she started channeling the dark side and that he was toying with Finn based on how swiftly the fight completely changes with him.

As for Rey... I feel there is some backstory element with her that we haven't seen yet that is significant to how quickly she learned how to use the Force in terms of both the Mind Trick + lightsaber combat. Lots of fan theories about THAT.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #176 on: January 06, 2016, 12:36:41 PM »
Well, I think we have a very different interpretation of the duel, so that is part of it. I felt Rey was struggling until she started channeling the dark side and that he was toying with Finn based on how swiftly the fight completely changes with him.

As for Rey... I feel there is some backstory element with her that we haven't seen yet that is significant to how quickly she learned how to use the Force in terms of both the Mind Trick + lightsaber combat. Lots of fan theories about THAT.

Well, she was fending him off. And that alone I felt was bothersome. The whole point of a force-sensitive lightsaber duel is that the speed is possible because you can predict your opponents movements while they are predicting yours. In my head any self respecting force-user could absolutely decimate basically anyone except a Droid in close combat (and maybe a few very rare others, like the Mandalorians).

Well, I hope so. If it simply comes down to her parentage then I won't be happy honestly. Partly because of some chatter I saw somewhere which seemed to suggest that Force powers are not really heritable. And partly because it would mean she is Luke's daughter, which just feels way too obvious. If it's some kind of past training then that would make sense if it were not for the context of that it seemed like she was just discovering she could do these things AS she did them (or at least that's how it came across to me). And while some abilities, like pulling the Lightsaber might be straightforward in terms of the Force, prior to Episode VII the only people in the series who have used the Mind Trick have been Jedi/Sith who could be considered to have significant mastery over it, because it's not some straight-forward, brute-strength thing, but is subtle and requires training.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #177 on: January 06, 2016, 03:00:56 PM »
Well, I mean initially I had been joking but also: what? A quick Google search and I found loads of Rey action figurines for sale... One for a, frankly, ridiculous amount of money...

Regarding the current discussion of the Vong:

Now a lot of people seem a good deal more clued up on the EU than I am. I am only aware of the Vong to the extent that they invaded, that was why Palpatine made the Empire and the Death Star (he predicted it), and eventually the Good Guys stopped them. Plus that whole thing led to everything going wrong with Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. However, while I am aware of the broad strokes (due to rather too much time spent on Wookiepedia), I don't really know all the intricate details and I have never actually read any of the books. So it seems that a few folk in the thread kind of disliked them in the stories (although some liked the premise behind them, if we look at consortim), or at least how the whole arc ended. As I am unable to really comment on the intricacies I can only say that I also just like the whole premise of them, or at least of some kind of external invasion which causes the factions of the Galaxy to team up despite their differences.

At least that would be preferable to a whole new trilogy of Resistance versus New Order, because that would just be faaaar too samey for my liking. So yeah, I'm holding out for an external invasion or more focus on the Force side of things (here's hoping Rey turns to the Dark Side).

I'm not quite sure I agree with this... The whole point of the Sith is that they draw their strength from their emotions and that they don't master them... For Vader for example (not Anakin) it was always pretty clear he was drawing on hatred for his strength. Primarily his hatred for Palpatine actually. I think I far prefer Vader to Kylo Ren, I prefer his style and the sense of him drawing his power from his emotions. Of course, this might also be because Darth Vader is simply a more interesting character to me, far cooler, more iconic and simply better. But that's just me...

Despite what you say, there is no question that he does get defeated fairly "easily"... At the end though, that isn't really what bothered me. What bothered me more was how swiftly Rey seemed able to actually match Kylo, even if he was weak...Now, I would never have said he was toying with Finn, considering that in my memory Finn basically starts the fight by injuring Kylo and then Kylo struggles a bit before taking Finn out. Admittedly, he is wounded and in a pretty bad place mentally, but the fact that he lost both a lightsaber duel and a content of the Force with Rey is kind of unacceptable. In the same way that its unacceptable that Rey somehow learns how to use a Mind Trick without any prior training or experience.

I mean, he SEEMS strong. At the start that whole thing with catching a blaster bolt was fucking awesome! It's just that it felt like they both suddenly weakened him dramatically at the end (arguably because of the conflicting emotions at killing Han and so lacking in strength) but they also massively overpowered Rey. And that's my issue.

Also... Kylo really IS a poor man's Vader. Heck, I think the film even tried to make that clear with the whole "You'll never be as strong as Darth Vader" thing (incidentally, the fact that Rey won that particular battle is also unacceptable).

She did have training from KYLO when did she first do the Jedi Mind Trick after fending off KYLO and it wasn't easy at the beginning of the exchange she got better and in the duel again her style MATCHED KYLO'S it was a Sith approach of thrusting and aggression not a Jedi one Luke never fought that way for example she was learning from his example. And Kylo was hurt and didn't lose the duel there was that crack in the planet placing them out of each others reach if KYLO was in top form REY would have lost. REY fought KYLO to a draw.

Anyway both are going to get more training when they do meet again it should be epic.


Offline Stella

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #178 on: January 06, 2016, 03:28:42 PM »
You mean a group that were brought in that actually challenged force users to think outside of the box? The kind of baddies that didn't rely on someone with a red lightsaber and consisted mainly of hordes of extras for the jedi to zoom through until they got to said baddie with the red lighsaber? Yeah, I can see how some people might see that as annoying. Personally, I found the Vong to be rather inspiring and since they're gonna...
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Destroy Coruscant anyways
, it might as well be with something other than
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
yet another Empire super-weapon.
Plus, it would give Palpatine an actual reason for building this legion of superweapons in the first place other than," For the good of Evil everywhere! Muahahahahaha!" Considering that the book introducing Thrawn is when Palpatine forsees the coming of the Vong.

Thrawn was awesome, though.

Hm, is that sarcasm? :/ No. Those weren't the reasons I preferred other enemies. They just weren't my cup of tea, and I wasn't particularly keen on the direction the EU went in after Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2016, 08:12:38 PM »
She did have training from KYLO when did she first do the Jedi Mind Trick after fending off KYLO and it wasn't easy at the beginning of the exchange she got better and in the duel again her style MATCHED KYLO'S it was a Sith approach of thrusting and aggression not a Jedi one Luke never fought that way for example she was learning from his example. And Kylo was hurt and didn't lose the duel there was that crack in the planet placing them out of each others reach if KYLO was in top form REY would have lost. REY fought KYLO to a draw.

Anyway both are going to get more training when they do meet again it should be epic.

Uh... What? Surely you're not claiming that having Kylo invade her mind (incidentally, I assume we need a name for that now :P ) just once is training? I mean, I had a football kicked at me once and didn't learn how to play when I kicked it back... I mean, like, actual legit training. I also would have argued she shouldn't have been able to fend him off in the first place. I'll admit it never seemed like she had it easy, but that's not really my point, my point is that I feel like Kylo should have been able to literally just pick her up and throw her around (and I do mean literally) and yet he actually ends up losing to this completely untrained novice.

Plus... Are you kidding? He was down on the ground with a massive lightsaber cut down his face and body. Rey absolutely beasted him at the end. The ground splitting saved his life!

Also, also, not to be rude but why were you capitalising their names like that? I almost felt like I was being yelled at *laughs*

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #180 on: January 06, 2016, 08:48:23 PM »
Personally i'm fine with Kylo getting his butt handed to him a bit. First, is that he had taken a gut shot from the bowcaster (A gun shown to toss mooks into the air from close hits/blasts, and he tanked one to the gut), then he was toying with Finn - until Finn actually got a lucky strike in and wounded Kylo's arm. Kylo and Rey were basically in an endurance match, and Rey already knew melee combat - mostly with a staff... But if you watched the way she fought with the saber, she was basically using the saber the way one would use a staff, not a sword. She basically outlasted a pretty wounded sith apprentice, who in his top game would have won... But one isn't in their top game after tanking a crap ton of hits and bleeding out from one of them (As I assume the shot from chewie was still bleeding. Kylo was basically hitting himself through the fight and I took it as a way to keep himself pumped up/not losing consciousness from bloodloss).

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2016, 08:59:28 PM »
The camera specifically focused on the blood in the snow from his wound at one point, so yeah, he was still bleeding out from the shot. (Which is kinda odd in its own right, shouldn't a blaster-type weapon cauterize its own wounds? W/e).

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2016, 10:14:19 PM »
The camera specifically focused on the blood in the snow from his wound at one point, so yeah, he was still bleeding out from the shot. (Which is kinda odd in its own right, shouldn't a blaster-type weapon cauterize its own wounds? W/e).

He was fighting and moving rather vigorously, I would expect that could still open the wound, or it may not have cauterized properly/fully.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #183 on: January 07, 2016, 10:16:58 AM »
Uh... What? Surely you're not claiming that having Kylo invade her mind (incidentally, I assume we need a name for that now :P ) just once is training? I mean, I had a football kicked at me once and didn't learn how to play when I kicked it back... I mean, like, actual legit training. I also would have argued she shouldn't have been able to fend him off in the first place. I'll admit it never seemed like she had it easy, but that's not really my point, my point is that I feel like Kylo should have been able to literally just pick her up and throw her around (and I do mean literally) and yet he actually ends up losing to this completely untrained novice.

Plus... Are you kidding? He was down on the ground with a massive lightsaber cut down his face and body. Rey absolutely beasted him at the end. The ground splitting saved his life!

Also, also, not to be rude but why were you capitalising their names like that? I almost felt like I was being yelled at *laughs*

He did get a bow caster shot into him he likely had to use the Force to hold back the full effect, Finn slashed him a good one and look at her fighting style in the movie its Sith and its simple on the other counts she's a Force Prodigy like Anakin and Luke were. It was Kylo's fault if he didn't mess with her she wouldn't then be able to tap into her inner Jedi. And I suspect Luke will fall next if he ends up fighting Kylo and Snoke at the same time.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2016, 10:23:38 AM »
Plus, remember the whole thing of the Dark Side is that it's not more powerful, just easier - you can channel it with far less training or discipline than the Light Side, and if Rey really is tapping into the Dark Side to fight Kylo, it makes sense for her instant power boost/skill increase.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2016, 11:05:34 AM »
I guess I just don't see the Force that way, that you can just innately learn how to use it. Using Luke as an example if you see the progress he makes between Episode IV and Episode V, in terms of Force Ability it isn't all that impressive. Like, they make a whole thing about the effort he has to put in just to pull his lightsaber towards him. And that is a whole three years after he begins training with the Force. It's only after he actually gets a decent teacher and properly studies that he becomes something of a match for Vader.

I get that the Dark side is easier (and hence more seductive) but I still feel like it takes a long time of training before you are even capable of actually "feeling" the Force. Let alone use it.

Admittedly, Changingsaint, you do make a convincing argument about Kylo's injuries. But what about earlier? When they have that sort of mental battle and Rey pretty handily bears him at his own game. Admittedly this IS a new power which has not been established before. But once again I just don't think it quite right that Rey is capable of doing it quite so easily... I could get if she forced him out of her head, because that seems more like a contest of brute strength, but actually reading his mind back?? Just innately knowing learning how to do that? I just am not a fan...

I feel I should make it clear that I am talking about all of this in the context of both Anakin and Luke Skywalker (both with a fair claim at being THE most powerful Jedi ever). It makes their powers seem negilible that Rey is capable of grasping things in, basically minutes, what it took them years to do.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2016, 11:27:09 AM »
I see it as the difference between years of hard training in the gym (Light side), and dosing yourself with a bunch of anabolic steroids (Dark Side), as two different means of gaining muscle (Force ability). In the long term, the former is far healthier and honestly just better overall, but the latter is faster+easier, providing a short-term benefit that equals a much larger time commitment to the former. Luke worked out in his jungleswamp gym with a skilled trainer, while Vader took a big hit of drugs and kept using it. Rey here has taken her first hit of the tasty Dark Side juice, it'll be her character arc that determines if she develops a habit or not.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:30:00 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #187 on: January 07, 2016, 11:28:05 AM »
Personally, I took the reading the mind back being more of a matter of the Force power requires some connection between the two minds. Since she was force-sensitive, she was able to push that connection right back. That being said, I do think she is an abnormality in terms of usage of the Force.

Also... all we see Luke doing with Yoda is strengthening his connection with the Force. We never see Yoda go: "This is how you do a Jedi Mind Trick. This is how you Force Choke somebody." But Luke definitely does both of those in RotJ.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #188 on: January 07, 2016, 11:31:12 AM »
Personally, I took the reading the mind back being more of a matter of the Force power requires some connection between the two minds. Since she was force-sensitive, she was able to push that connection right back. That being said, I do think she is an abnormality in terms of usage of the Force.

Also... all we see Luke doing with Yoda is strengthening his connection with the Force. We never see Yoda go: "This is how you do a Jedi Mind Trick. This is how you Force Choke somebody." But Luke definitely does both of those in RotJ.

To be fair, we did get montage-like bits and pieces of said training, and he both of those tricks in Episode VI. Plenty of time for Yoda to have taught him specific tricks offscreen.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #189 on: January 07, 2016, 11:34:13 AM »
To be fair, we did get montage-like bits and pieces of said training, and he both of those tricks in Episode VI. Plenty of time for Yoda to have taught him specific tricks offscreen.

It is true. But Yoda definitely wasn't teaching him how to Force Choke anybody.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #190 on: January 07, 2016, 11:38:54 AM »
It is true. But Yoda definitely wasn't teaching him how to Force Choke anybody.

Which kinda supports my theory above - Force Choke is a Dark technique. By tapping (briefly) the Dark Side, he was able to use a force power instinctively rather than through conscious training and practice, cause that's how Dark Power rolls.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #191 on: January 07, 2016, 11:46:19 AM »
Personally, I took the reading the mind back being more of a matter of the Force power requires some connection between the two minds. Since she was force-sensitive, she was able to push that connection right back. That being said, I do think she is an abnormality in terms of usage of the Force.

Also... all we see Luke doing with Yoda is strengthening his connection with the Force. We never see Yoda go: "This is how you do a Jedi Mind Trick. This is how you Force Choke somebody." But Luke definitely does both of those in RotJ.

Actually, you do make a valid point about the mind connection thing. Kind of like how Harry read Snape's mind when they were doing the whole Occulumency thing. That seems reasonable.

To be fair, we did get montage-like bits and pieces of said training, and he both of those tricks in Episode VI. Plenty of time for Yoda to have taught him specific tricks offscreen.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well. Just because you don't see him learn a specific trick doesn't mean he wasn't taught it.

It is true. But Yoda definitely wasn't teaching him how to Force Choke anybody.

Yeah, but a Force choke isn't exactly a difficult thing... It's just another form of telekinesis along the lines of moving objects. I figure once you learn how move something with the Force it's a quick step to working out other physical manipulations.

Offline Mathim

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #192 on: January 10, 2016, 06:18:32 PM »
Just saw it today with a friend. Didn't really want to but he did. Wasn't really impressed, had a lot of the same problems you guys are talking about with everything that went on. And the part where they were shooting the shit out of that settlement on Jakku when they were trying to capture BB8, did they not think blowing him up would destroy their only tangible link to find Luke? I'm done. He can go see the next one by himself.

To be honest, the best part for me was the fact that John Boyega, who played Finn, played a character called Moses in another movie, Attack the Block, and the beginning of this movie had...*chuckle*...Moses wandering in the desert! I think I was the only one in the theater who put that together.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:20:03 PM by Mathim »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #193 on: January 12, 2016, 09:30:29 AM »
My suggestion take out the thinking part of your brain, polish it and drop kick it to the side watching most modern movies. You would do yourself a favor and put it back in when you watch classic movies and true masterpieces this is not supposed to be high art like 2001 A Space Odyssey or the original Solaris this is a very big hit popcorn movie. Enjoy that its better than Episode I by a long shot and not as good as the original film which I would argue is only a popular popcorn movie to just serious in that it revitalized a genre big time. It was a hit with fans and entered the popular culture but is still to me a popcorn movie and the Star Wars Franchise never got over that.

But its an enjoyable good popcorn movie in four cases, and bombed in three cases. In my view the prequels need a re-boot and Abrams would be perfect, at a later time.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #194 on: January 12, 2016, 09:38:50 AM »
My suggestion take out the thinking part of your brain, polish it and drop kick it to the side watching most modern movies. You would do yourself a favor and put it back in when you watch classic movies and true masterpieces this is not supposed to be high art like 2001 A Space Odyssey or the original Solaris this is a very big hit popcorn movie. Enjoy that its better than Episode I by a long shot and not as good as the original film which I would argue is only a popular popcorn movie to just serious in that it revitalized a genre big time. It was a hit with fans and entered the popular culture but is still to me a popcorn movie and the Star Wars Franchise never got over that.

But its an enjoyable good popcorn movie in four cases, and bombed in three cases. In my view the prequels need a re-boot and Abrams would be perfect, at a later time.
Honestly, I like the prequels, probably not for the right reasons, but I was a kid (and I've always maintained that's an important factor when a person watches--and how they remember--Star Wars). Nearly every problem that's present in the Prequels can be seen in the Original. Now, if I'm impersonal about it, I'll admit that George Lucas could have used a little more oversight from friends and editors on the prequels, but is VII that much better? Not really, it's got a lot of the same problems, but repeating IV and keeping it subdued doesn't make it anything grand.

Ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people have much more invested in Star Wars than they probably should have, but as someone prone to fits of nostalgia I'm not going to throw stones, but the prequels were at least not trying to redo the original trilogy, which I think is a mark for them.


Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #195 on: January 12, 2016, 12:23:44 PM »
Honestly, I like the prequels, probably not for the right reasons, but I was a kid (and I've always maintained that's an important factor when a person watches--and how they remember--Star Wars). Nearly every problem that's present in the Prequels can be seen in the Original. Now, if I'm impersonal about it, I'll admit that George Lucas could have used a little more oversight from friends and editors on the prequels, but is VII that much better? Not really, it's got a lot of the same problems, but repeating IV and keeping it subdued doesn't make it anything grand.

Ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people have much more invested in Star Wars than they probably should have, but as someone prone to fits of nostalgia I'm not going to throw stones, but the prequels were at least not trying to redo the original trilogy, which I think is a mark for them.

I'm actually right with you there. I think it's actually kind of "cool" to hate the prequels, but in reality they really aren't all that bad. Now obviously Darth Jar Jar is a ridiculous character, purely there to try and get little kids to laugh while everyone else disliked him, we all dislike whiney, emo Anakin from Episode 2 (and the whole love story as well) and there's also the general dislike from the hardcore fans for Medichlorians.

However, I think a lot of the Prequels was actually quite good. Thinking back on it, I liked the set-up for Darth Vader. I liked a lot of the space battles and I liked the set-up of the Empire. I think that while the films get a bad rep they also are a bit better than people give them credit for.

Also, for any of you who are actually really into Star Wars, this here essay is actually quite thought provoking and intriguing and suggests that the way Lucas made all six Star Wars films is actually filled with a great deal many more layers than first glance would suggest.

Offline Florence

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #196 on: January 12, 2016, 01:42:40 PM »
I'm actually right with you there. I think it's actually kind of "cool" to hate the prequels, but in reality they really aren't all that bad. Now obviously Darth Jar Jar is a ridiculous character, purely there to try and get little kids to laugh while everyone else disliked him, we all dislike whiney, emo Anakin from Episode 2 (and the whole love story as well) and there's also the general dislike from the hardcore fans for Medichlorians.

However, I think a lot of the Prequels was actually quite good. Thinking back on it, I liked the set-up for Darth Vader. I liked a lot of the space battles and I liked the set-up of the Empire. I think that while the films get a bad rep they also are a bit better than people give them credit for.

Also, for any of you who are actually really into Star Wars, this here essay is actually quite thought provoking and intriguing and suggests that the way Lucas made all six Star Wars films is actually filled with a great deal many more layers than first glance would suggest.

Eeeeh, I gotta disagree. I'm talking as someone who enjoyed the prequels as a kid. I went back to watch them again, and... Phantom Menace was just... the Phantom Menace. It had Liam Neeson. That was pretty cool. Pretty much everything else was dumb. Ewan McGregor is awesome, but I didn't feel like he really came into his own as Obi-Wan until.. maybe Attack of the Clones. Jar Jar was obnoxious. Even as a kid I knew he was obnoxious. Darth Maul was cool, I guess, but he's honestly just kinda got less cool over time. The plot was boring, the characters were boring, the action was... yep, still pretty boring.

But I have to admit... I'm not sure its my least favorite any more.  For the longest time I pretty much went in reverse order. Revenge of the Sith was the best, Attack of the Clones was okay, Phantom Menace was the worst... but upon viewing them again... I kind of found Attack of the Clones to be the worst of the three. There was the big battle at the end which was cool but the entire rest of the movie was just a chore to get through. Even the parts with Jango Fett were tiresome and just... uninteresting.

Revenge of the Sith is still my favorite of the three, though, and I consider it more or less on par with Return of the Jedi. That should kinda say something though. The best of the prequels is on par with the worst of the originals.

Personally, I think they REALLY dropped the ball on Anakin's character development. Even as a kid I rarely found myself liking him. I always found Obi-Wan to be the more compelling character and that's probably just because it was Ewan McGregor playing him. I mean, he seemed like the one actor consistently trying through all three movies.

I did enjoy the new one, though. I mean, you can dissect the movie all you want, but at the end of the day, I enjoyed this one, and I didn't enjoy the prequels (at least, not after my brain had developed enough to not be easily impressed by the cinematic equivalent of jingling car keys), and that makes it a better movie in my book.

People accuse it of ripping off the classic movies, but I didn't view that to be the case at all. It certainly rehashed elements of the original movie, but I felt like it did so in fresh enough ways that... watching it, I just didn't care. I had a few moments where I was like "Oh hey, this is like the original", but never in a bad way.

tl;dr, TFA wasn't boring, and that's enough to make it better than the prequels in my book, ESPECIALLY the first two prequel movies.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #197 on: January 13, 2016, 02:55:46 AM »
Talking about the prequels and Phantom Menace in particular while clearly there's an awful lot wrong with it I also think the final fight with Maul is probably the best lightsabre duel across all the films. Without having either old actors or people in heavy suits there's a level of technique and athleticism they can use there that doesn't appear in either the original trilogy or Attack of the Clones, while it's not as overwhelmed by obvious CGI as either the final fight between Anakin and Obi Wan or whenever Yoda and Palpatine draw their blades.

There's also both some visually cool and pretty nice ideas in there as well; the double bladed lightsabre is a good start but the way the fight gets broken up by the "shields" (or whatever they are) also works damn well; it gives us the cool visual and character development point of Qui-Gon Jinn meditating while Maul paces, there's Obi Wan having to look on helplessly while his mentor and friend is killed and it also allows for one-on-one fights without resorting to the equivalent of the WWE situation where a wrestler gets thrown out of the ring and has to stay down for an inordinately long amount of time so the other wrestlers can face off.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #198 on: January 13, 2016, 06:47:51 AM »
I just have two things against the Darth Maul fight, though overall it is quite a nice touch.

1. An actual nitpick of the fight is the ending is incredibly unsatisfying. Maul just stands nice and still and lets himself get chopped in two. Also, I'm less of a fan of the random walls, because I think it begs the question of how come they didn't use the Force Speed they used EARLIER IN THE SAME MOVIE to get past it. Obi-Wan in particular has no excuse.

2. Less of a issue with the Darth Maul fight itself as much as the directors, I think they took the lightsaber duel in Phantom Menace, saw that people liked it, and then totally misjudged what people liked it for. I think they were like: "Wow, people liked this super choreographed fight full of flips and dramatic athleticism! Let's make EVERY lightsaber fight even more choreographed from now on!" But I look at that lightsaber fight and it is still visceral and grounded at least somewhat in sense. Sure, there is some choreographing that is obvious, but everybody is more or less making reasonable strikes with their blades. They don't have the lightsaber rave scene from Episode 3.

...overall, I think that story matters more for me than flashy effects. So I would have to say that I prefer the lightsaber duel in Return of the Jedi where we see Luke embracing the dark side briefly, because it gets across that effect using the duel as a storytelling technique and not a single word until the very end. Also, I think I WOULD have to say I prefer the Force Awakens lightsaber fight because they really captured the essences of the characters I think within the combat itself. Which is a nice touch.

Edit: Bonus point: I REALLY like the lightsaber fights in Star Wars: Rebels too. I worried they were going to go the path of Revenge of the Sith.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2016, 07:30:31 AM »
Eeeeh, I gotta disagree. I'm talking as someone who enjoyed the prequels as a kid. I went back to watch them again, and... Phantom Menace was just... the Phantom Menace. It had Liam Neeson. That was pretty cool. Pretty much everything else was dumb. Ewan McGregor is awesome, but I didn't feel like he really came into his own as Obi-Wan until.. maybe Attack of the Clones. Jar Jar was obnoxious. Even as a kid I knew he was obnoxious. Darth Maul was cool, I guess, but he's honestly just kinda got less cool over time. The plot was boring, the characters were boring, the action was... yep, still pretty boring.

But I have to admit... I'm not sure its my least favorite any more.  For the longest time I pretty much went in reverse order. Revenge of the Sith was the best, Attack of the Clones was okay, Phantom Menace was the worst... but upon viewing them again... I kind of found Attack of the Clones to be the worst of the three. There was the big battle at the end which was cool but the entire rest of the movie was just a chore to get through. Even the parts with Jango Fett were tiresome and just... uninteresting.

Revenge of the Sith is still my favorite of the three, though, and I consider it more or less on par with Return of the Jedi. That should kinda say something though. The best of the prequels is on par with the worst of the originals.

Personally, I think they REALLY dropped the ball on Anakin's character development. Even as a kid I rarely found myself liking him. I always found Obi-Wan to be the more compelling character and that's probably just because it was Ewan McGregor playing him. I mean, he seemed like the one actor consistently trying through all three movies.

I did enjoy the new one, though. I mean, you can dissect the movie all you want, but at the end of the day, I enjoyed this one, and I didn't enjoy the prequels (at least, not after my brain had developed enough to not be easily impressed by the cinematic equivalent of jingling car keys), and that makes it a better movie in my book.

People accuse it of ripping off the classic movies, but I didn't view that to be the case at all. It certainly rehashed elements of the original movie, but I felt like it did so in fresh enough ways that... watching it, I just didn't care. I had a few moments where I was like "Oh hey, this is like the original", but never in a bad way.

tl;dr, TFA wasn't boring, and that's enough to make it better than the prequels in my book, ESPECIALLY the first two prequel movies.

Honestly, I quite liked the actin in Phantom Menace, but really I think that comes down to a matter of taste and there isn't much more to be said. You didn't like it, I did. I would say this though, Darth Maul becomes really cool as a character in the Clone Wars TV show. In fact the story arc involving him, his brother and Obi-Wan was probably the best thing from those five series.

I've actually always thought Clone Wars was the worst of three for the exact reason you just said. Everything from the moment the stadium scene starts is awesome, but from about 20 minutes in you just get an hour of Anakin and Padme and it's just so fucking unspeakably boring. I totally get why they did it, it was necessary to see Anakin's development of finding something he loves and the death of his mother, but they just made it drag out so bloody long.

I also liked Revenge of the Sith, but I'll disagree with the other statement, but that's primarily because my favourite of all of the films is Return of the Jedi. I realise that's definitely unusual and not the commonly accepted belief, but for me it's definitely my favourite. For me, I always loved Luke Skywalker. Lots of people thought Han Solo was cool and all that, but Luke was my favourite character from day one and so seeing him evolve into a true Jedi Knight is probably the best thing in the whole series for me. Plus, Darth Vader's return to the Light side. Them feels.

You're probably right about the dislike of Anakin stemming from a dislike for the actor rather than the character. Although, like you say, it's nearly impossible to stomach Anakin in The Attack of the Clones and so it's pretty hard to get over that. So when he finally starts dropping his whiney, bitchy persona in Episode 3, by then you've already had 2 full episodes of Ewen McGregor being awesome, so there was just no way to stand up against that.

Talking about the prequels and Phantom Menace in particular while clearly there's an awful lot wrong with it I also think the final fight with Maul is probably the best lightsabre duel across all the films. Without having either old actors or people in heavy suits there's a level of technique and athleticism they can use there that doesn't appear in either the original trilogy or Attack of the Clones, while it's not as overwhelmed by obvious CGI as either the final fight between Anakin and Obi Wan or whenever Yoda and Palpatine draw their blades.

There's also both some visually cool and pretty nice ideas in there as well; the double bladed lightsabre is a good start but the way the fight gets broken up by the "shields" (or whatever they are) also works damn well; it gives us the cool visual and character development point of Qui-Gon Jinn meditating while Maul paces, there's Obi Wan having to look on helplessly while his mentor and friend is killed and it also allows for one-on-one fights without resorting to the equivalent of the WWE situation where a wrestler gets thrown out of the ring and has to stay down for an inordinately long amount of time so the other wrestlers can face off.

I just have two things against the Darth Maul fight, though overall it is quite a nice touch.

1. An actual nitpick of the fight is the ending is incredibly unsatisfying. Maul just stands nice and still and lets himself get chopped in two. Also, I'm less of a fan of the random walls, because I think it begs the question of how come they didn't use the Force Speed they used EARLIER IN THE SAME MOVIE to get past it. Obi-Wan in particular has no excuse.

2. Less of a issue with the Darth Maul fight itself as much as the directors, I think they took the lightsaber duel in Phantom Menace, saw that people liked it, and then totally misjudged what people liked it for. I think they were like: "Wow, people liked this super choreographed fight full of flips and dramatic athleticism! Let's make EVERY lightsaber fight even more choreographed from now on!" But I look at that lightsaber fight and it is still visceral and grounded at least somewhat in sense. Sure, there is some choreographing that is obvious, but everybody is more or less making reasonable strikes with their blades. They don't have the lightsaber rave scene from Episode 3.

...overall, I think that story matters more for me than flashy effects. So I would have to say that I prefer the lightsaber duel in Return of the Jedi where we see Luke embracing the dark side briefly, because it gets across that effect using the duel as a storytelling technique and not a single word until the very end. Also, I think I WOULD have to say I prefer the Force Awakens lightsaber fight because they really captured the essences of the characters I think within the combat itself. Which is a nice touch.

Edit: Bonus point: I REALLY like the lightsaber fights in Star Wars: Rebels too. I worried they were going to go the path of Revenge of the Sith.

I probably agree that the Darth Maul fight is one of the best, if not my favourite fight (for the same reasons I've stated above with Luke being my favourite character).

Anne makes a good point about the fight possibly being the reason the fights from then on became so massively overblown. Particularly the lightsaber duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I actually think the best Lightsaber fights I've ever seen are also animated ones, but not from a TV show either. In fact my favourites are probably those in the cinematic trailers for Star Wars: The Old Republic. If you haven't seen them I seriously suggest you give them a look. Despite being a few years old now they still remain absolutely world class in terms of animation.



There's an absolutely fucking BEAUTIFUL moment around 3:00 minutes into that video where one of the Sith has disarmed and pinned the Jedi apprentice and is about to deliver a killing blow but then the Jedi Master throws his lightsaber across the room, the blade blocking the strike and then he calls it back into his hand using the force. What I love about these fights is that they incorporate two of the most important things that I think a lightsaber fight has to have:

First off: it ALWAYS has to be form following function. I think a big part of the reason that the fight in Revenge of the Sith was so overblown was because half of the time Obi-Wan and Anakin are just swinging their lightsabers around. It LOOKS flashy and cool until you realise that they aren't actually doing anything and are, in reality, just swinging their blades around for the express purpose of TRYING to look cool. In comparison, the fight in The Force Awakens was a perfect example of form following function because every single blow that Kylo and Rey are landing look like they are done with the intention of killing or wounding. It's why the fight has that brutal "Dark Side" quality, because it's pretty clear that they are ACTUALLY fighting as opposed to just swinging their toys around.

Secondly: it has to be clear that these people are force-sensitive. The reason they are so deadly with these blades is that they can predict the future, and are constantly predicting the future throughout the fight. They can just about see their opponent's moves while their opponent is doing the same to them. They should not only be obviously very acrobatic and athletic, but they should also be pulling off moves that would just not be possible or plausible if it were just two particularly good sword fighters. This is where, I think, The Force Awaken's lightsaber fight falls just a little flat (only a little, I thought it was extremely awesome while I was watching it) because it just looks like two people swinging glowing swords at each other. There's no subtlety.

Meanwhile in these trailers, you have the characters doing absolutely insane things, obviously starting to move BEFORE the other person has started to move as well in order to intercept them and fight them.