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Author Topic: The new Star Wars  (Read 8522 times)

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Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2015, 09:51:06 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

That makes no sense. I have to forgive it being bad because other people loved it? Nothing has ever worked like that in the history of the world. Ever. The only culture I can't share if I don't like it is the Star Wars fanboy culture which I was never a part of anyway.

Personally I think the nostalgia will fade and people will remember that JJ Abrams is a hack and this movie will go down as ultimately forgettable.

Offline Aiden

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2015, 09:56:51 AM »
You don't have to do anything, if you don't like it, you don't like it. Star Wars is here to stay, with a movie coming out every year, I am glad to live in this age of cinema. Marvel and Star Wars every year... Give me a new Harry Potter series and I'll just move in to an amc.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2015, 10:09:31 AM »
I understand that. I was specifically replying to someone who implied that I have to if I want to share a culture with people. Which is an idea so strange to me that I had to question it.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2015, 10:17:24 AM »
It was not meant as a personal attack.

What I mean is this. If the newest brain worm pop song comes on and everyone else starts humming, you can point out "this is clearly Pachelbel's Canon in D and the original is better." It would not be inaccurate to say so, but it would be unpopular.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2015, 10:28:25 AM »
I erased the post I had written because I realized that your comment was pushing me towards anger and I don't feel like being angry right now. I just need to remember that I don't participate in discussion threads here for a reason.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2015, 11:05:15 AM »
I have to forgive it being bad because other people loved it? .
No.  You have to forgive it's existence because it's going to exist whether you want it to or not - like sunlight. 

Personally, being a night person, I hate sunlight a lot.  But there's not all that much I can do about it.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2015, 11:13:21 AM »
No.  You have to forgive it's existence because it's going to exist whether you want it to or not - like sunlight. 

Personally, being a night person, I hate sunlight a lot.  But there's not all that much I can do about it.

See... this right here is why I really dislike the discussion forums on Elliquiy. One is that you are misconstruing what she and I both said to try and prove me wrong. Two is that after I said that I was getting angry and trying to step away from the conversation you still felt the need to do the first thing. Does that seem particularly civil?

And I absolutely will not be returning to this thread anymore. So please do not bother responding to me.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2015, 11:20:25 AM »
I feel like Mnemaxa understands what I was saying and hasn't misconstrued it. I'm sorry that I made you angry with my post. It was absolutely not my intention.

Online Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2015, 11:30:06 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

Personally I found it Lisa Frank Unicorn levels of magical.
I haven't seen it, but I think it's not pop music. It's JJ Abrams being smart enough to know that Star Wars fans don't want anything new, they want that same old jolt of nostalgia that they got watching the original trilogy as a kid.

I got to see all the Star Wars films during my formative years and love them all. I think a lot of the hate is misplaced, overblown, and undeserved. So the average Star Wars fan was basically looking for New Hope 2.0 and they got it. Not so much pop as pandering I imagine.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2015, 11:54:45 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

What I mean is this. If the newest brain worm pop song comes on and everyone else starts humming, you can point out "this is clearly Pachelbel's Canon in D and the original is better." It would not be inaccurate to say so, but it would be unpopular.

I'm not sure that the example works or that the argument is true to begin with.

To go with the pop example, "Call Me Maybe" is one of the most commercially successful songs of all time with something like 15 million+ sold. Yet it was hardly a black mark to say that you didn't like it. James Blunt pretty much became a punchline in that he sold an outrageous number of records but no-one admitted to buying him or liking them.

To deal with the argument as a whole we actually have a perfect counter example from not just the world of film, but from the same series. The prequels were incredibly successful in a commercial sense, with The Phantom Menace in particular breaking all sorts of records. Yet it was hardly unpopular, even shortly after Phantom Menace's release, to say that you disliked it or that you thought it wasn't very good. If we don't want to use the prequels then one could look to the Michael Bay Transformers films; again, they've been incredibly successful commercially but saying you don't like them or that you didn't think they were very good doesn't make one unpopular or even seperate one from the fan-dom as a whole. Hell, quite a lot of people criticize Jackson's Tolkien adaptations and they were both commercially successful and generally pretty well regarded.

To give another direct counter when there was the glut of Western adaptations of Japanese horror films (Ring, Grudge, Dark Water etc) a lot of people pointed out how the originals were better. Likewise I'd argue that saying that Blurred Lines copied from Got to Give It Up and that Got to Give It Up was better would hardly be controversial and in certain circles would probably be the more popular view.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2015, 12:15:50 PM »
Originally I was going to say that for the next five years Star Wars will be bigger than Jesus, but thought better of it. Some things, like sunlight or Jesus, are inescapably ingrained into our culture, like them or not. You can drive yourself crazy hating them, or you can accept that your DRV of vitamin C comes with the caveat of accepting BB8 into your life and home.



I never liked the Beatles but I have learned not to say so.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2015, 12:21:39 PM »
It was FAR BETTER than Episode 1, that's good enough for me.

Offline mia h

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2015, 03:56:40 PM »
It was FAR BETTER than Episode 1, that's good enough for me.
That's hardly a high bar to clear.
I saw a program recently that said the Lucas wrote Star Wars for 12 year olds and it's not his fault grown-ups liked it. The prequels and JJ Wars have the same brief, entertain 12 year olds, as everyone on these boards is over 18 *waves hand* you are not the demographic they are looking for. The only two slight quibbles I have with Force Awakens are firstly if someone knew nothing about Star Wars and hadn't seen any of the previous movies would they understand what was going on? It felt like the first part of trilogy, in that it's not a film in it's own right and can't be watched as stand alone movie. Cut the last 5 minutes of the movie and it would be self-contained.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2015, 04:03:40 PM »
They had me on the scrolling opening, promoting the whole build up to the big opening jaw dropping sequence and went - YES!  Really I wasn't the only one yelling - YES!

I'd go into the plot but I won't spoiler for a week to give everyone a chance to see it who hasn't.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2015, 05:04:58 PM »
The idea that Lucas made the prequels for a very young audience surely bears closer examination. If someone told me The Room was for children it would explain some things but raise many more important questions.


Offline Ananym

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2015, 06:21:52 PM »
Just got back a little while ago from seeing The Force Awakens and I enjoyed it a lot. I'm a big fan of strong female leads and the character of Rey was great. I think Harrison Ford put in the best performance of the cast and it was great watching him be Han Solo again.

Online CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2015, 07:38:41 PM »
Just saw Force Awakens and I personally loved it. It felt like the kind of movie to remind us life long fans why we loved this franchise so much after a ten year absence from the big screen (With the exception of the CG Clone Wars movie in '08). While opening the door for new fans as well.

In other news expect more than just the sequel trilogy. Disney is planning to release a slew of spin off films set in different time periods than the 30 year gap.

There is a movie in the works currently known as Rogue One: A Star Wars story. Following the story of the Rebels who stole the plans for the very original Death Star. That's right we will see how the Rebel Alliance first stole the plans that started the entire franchise.

Boba Fett will be getting some love to with his own spin off film. Nothing other than its shooting for a 2020 release date.

Now here will be the tricky one. They are planning to do a Han Solo spin off film with a younger Solo! Hollywood Reporter has said 2,500 actors have been screened for the part and lets be honest. Whoever steps up to the plate will have some freaking huge shoes to fill that belong to the legendary performance that is Harrison Ford.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2015, 07:51:00 PM »
It's an evolution of the 'Young man becomes a warrior in space' story. A New Hope, as well loved as it was, was fairly basic. An evolution of the story was inevitable, and in my opinion, a good idea. And to be honest, they did it rather well, with likeable characters, a decent amount of emotional investment and just enough of a build-up for Episode 8.

My two cents: A decent flick, and a promising start.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2015, 11:50:34 PM »
I'm... well... I'm not as positive as a lot of other people seem to be about it.

Spoilers Ahoy... and lots of them
Seriously, lots of spoilers about lots of things; read with caution if you haven't seen the film
One last chance to not read
Have you ever watched a tribute band play?

They play the same songs as the original. They play them the say way as the original. They sound pretty similar to the original. They look pretty similar to the original. They move in a similar way to the original. But for all the talent they may possess, for all their ability to be a near perfect replica of the original, they are not the original and it is that lack of originality and lack of soul that means that a tribute band will never be as good as the real thing.

Welcome to Star Wars: The Force Awakens… the most high budget tribute act of all time.

Alternative title; Star Wars: The Star Wars Movie.

There's barely a major plot point developed or major scene presented over the 136 minutes of the Force Awakens that isn't lifted pretty much wholesale from the original trilogy. To begin with one could argue it's fan service. As it goes on you could claim it's an ironic wink to those who grew up with the original trilogy and want to relive that experience. But in the end it just becomes banal, predictable and seemingly a sign of little courage or imagination on the part of the writers and director.

Small droid that's sort of “cute” escapes with secret documents when its owner is captured? Check.
Promising Jedi fallen to the Dark Side who wears black, has a mask, speaks with a distorted voice and is a close relation to one of the major characters? Check
Giant starbase that can blow up planets? Check
Said giant starbase being taken out by a combination of star fighter attack and an infiltration? Check
Said starfighter attack involves flying down “trenches” lined with turrets while being pursued by enemy fighters? Check
A quest by a young force user to discover a famous Jedi master who has gone missing and can seemingly help them develop their understanding? Check
Major good guy character facing off with a bad guy he has a close history with and eventually sacrificing himself without much of a fight? Check
The bad guys basically being the Empire (including a mysterious master-type character) and the good guys basically being the Rebels? Check
Han Solo as a smuggler who owes dangerous people money? [Check

Some of this is deliberately played up and noted upon within the film itself; Kylo Ren is presented as being obsessed with Darth Vader which makes his obvious similarities to him somewhat understandable. Likewise there is something to be said for watching how the young characters from the original trilogy have basically become the older characters from the original trilogy with Han Solo playing a (slightly more grumpy) Obi Wan Kenobi and Luke taking on the role of Yoda. But the fact there are so many, that they are so similar and that they are so frequent meant that I struggled to meet each one with anything more than a groan. It was a very high budget tribute act… different people playing the same songs in slightly different ways while wearing similar clothes… but for me it lacked soul. It was that tribute band playing the greatest hits because they knew they'd get an "Oohh" and an "Aahh" because they were so good years ago.

Even if one gets beyond the wholescale lifting from previous movies there were things that didn't really work for me either. Despite the long running time the film covers so much ground (both literally and metaphorically) that things frequently lose their punch. The revelation that Kylo Ren was Han Solo's son came and went without much impact because there'd been little build up to it. Han and Leia having broken up? Pretty much the same. The Starkiller base destroying multiple planets (including the current seat of Senate and thus the leaders of the Republic)? It just sort of happened. Poe being alive? Barely raised an eyebrow. Part of that's the pacing; the first half (or more) of the film is relatively sedate which means there's a lot to fit in to the final third; it doesn't so much build to a crescendo as just throw the drum kit off a cliff. But even with the slower pacing some things just never seemed to develop for me. I like the idea that Finn and Rey seemingly are going for a friendship/brother and sister type relationship rather than a romantic one but their sudden closeness was a bit jarring; Finn has the one brief monologue about how Rey was the only person who looked at him a certain way and you can extrapolate how Rey, scarred by abandonment, would feel so deeply about someone coming back for her but the entire thing felt like a somewhat forced bromance. Likewise with Poe and Finn. Hell, throw in Solo and Rey as well; they seemed to have spent about five minutes together, exchanged a few lines and had a few moments where they both understood starships before she's thinking that he's the father she always wanted.

The setting itself threw up some issues that I never quite got over as I watched. The film is set 30 years after the Rebel Alliance won and overthrew the Empire. Yet the way the film goes it could just have easily been set during the height of Imperial Power. The New Order have vastly more men, ships and technology; the first half of the film features the protagonists being on the run and the second half pitches the overmatched rebels against seemingly overwhelming forces; the Resistance (and I'll mention them more later) have the same (or arguably a worse) feel as the rag tag alliance early in the original trilogy. The Republic itself is barely mentioned and the only talk of their direct military forces are a few references to the Republic fleet not being there. Exactly what the Republic Fleet found more important than a considerable military force with dark side users and a super weapon that just destroyed a whole bunch of planets in one go (including the current Senate) is never said. It's that lack of saying that got to me; we know basically nothing more about how the galaxy works 30 years after the Empire fell than we did at the Ewok party. Why has the Republic let the New Order grow as powerful as they have? What is their fleet doing? Why were the Resistance and Leia (surely an important figure) left to take them on at least one star destroyer, countless tie-fighters, a fallen Jedi (who was Luke's apprentice) and a planet sized superweapon with little more than some X-Wings? All it would have taken is a line of dialogue here or there to give at least some explanation. Maybe it's explained in the supporting media that are out there… but one shouldn't have to follow all that media to get some pretty basic questions answered.

(As for the "Resistance"... why are the soldiers from the victorious side called that? The Resistance represent the Republic, the dominant force in the galaxy… if anything shouldn't they be called the New Order and the New Order the Resistance? What exactly is it they're resisting? Why don't they have more support? Why does everything about them seem pretty run down? Why don't they have some capital ship support?)

I imagine other things like Rey suddenly becoming an expert in how to use the Force will be explained in the coming films but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be whitewashed away for now. Luke Skywalker, the Chosen One, required extensive training from both Obi Wan and Yoda to start using the Force effectively. Rey has Kylo Ren delve into her mind for a few moments and suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and outpowering Ren in a Force telekenesis contest. Likewise Maz having Luke's lightsabre… why did he give it up, where did she get it and how come no-one else came chasing after it, instead leaving it in the back room of some backwater bar? Or the fall of Kylo Ren; we're given little clue as to why he turned to the dark side and the best we can put together is that he wants to be like Vader… hardly a convincing reason. The strongest stories involving someone falling to the Dark Side are them going too far in pursuit of a generally positive aim; it may not have been well executed in the prequels but Anakin falling because he wanted to save the one he loved is the classic while the Expanded Universe-based fan theory that Palpatine fell because he realised the Republic as it was wasn't strong enough to resist the Yuuzhan Vong (which would also explain the Empire's penchant for super weapons) is a good one. Ren? Right now it appears to be that he fell “just because”. With Luke getting more (well, any…) screen time in the next film we should get more (and I think it could be a powerful story and good example of how obsession, even for good reasons, goes to the Dark Side if Luke was so worried about Ben Solo becoming a new Vader that he ended up turning him into him) but again, that doesn't mean this film should get a free pass for leaving a major element largely untouched.

Other things are personal. Kylo Ren was pretty damn effective while masked and his occasional displays of petulance struck me of being a good example of how the dark side amplifies rage. But once the mask came off I found it hard to care about him; I know for story reasons he can't be too old but he just didn't seem threatening at all. When the good guys return to their base at the end why is Leia's first reaction to hug Rey in the wake of Han's seeming death; she barely knew Rey, Rey barely knew Solo and Chewbacca… Han's best friend, the one seemingly in most need of comfort and someone Leia actually has a long relationship with… is left to stand alone. What happened to the Star Destroyer during the attack on Starkiller Base?

Here's where the courage point I mentioned earlier comes in…

Right now Disney buying Star Wars looks like a licence to print money but let's be clear… it was a risk. The Star Wars liscence will always be profitable just because they can sell so much but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars so they could sell some game licences, do a couple of cartoons and include Star Wars characters in their lineup of plushie toys. This was what they did it for… a big movie which in turn drives all the other merchandising opportunities forward. But the prequels lost a lot of good will which the community had (and even if you liked them popular memory has turned to the point where they are seen as being dreadful) and people were less likely to be forgiving. If this movie did badly (both critically and commercially) it could have been really, really bad for Disney.

If you asked the typical fan what they wanted from this new trilogy they'd have probably said for it to be less like the prequels and more like the original trilogy. So that's what we got. The Republic as a dominant military force rather than a group of rebels? That's too much like the prequels and not enough like the original trilogy. Political scenes setting out how the Republic works? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy. Watching the fall of a Jedi rather than have it having already happened and an established master/apprentice Sith relationship? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy.

That point also applied to the director as well. J. J. Abrams' re-imagining of Star Trek was a commercial success and, as a non-Trekie, I quite liked them as somewhat generic sci-fi action movies. But from what I understand a lot of Star Trek fans largely disliked them because to them they didn't feel like Star Trek movies. And I imagine that hurt J. J. Abrams. So what he did here was make the most Star Wars type movie he could by simply reusing every element of the original trilogy he could get his hands on. For me that shows a lack of courage. He didn't have the bravery to attempt to make something with the same soul as the original trilogy, he took the trappings that surrounded it.

It's appropriate in some ways; the term “Disneyfication” is a criticism generally used when something is stripped of its original character and instead given little more than the outer veneer of what it once was. And that's exactly what happened to this, the first Disney Star Wars movie.

What we got here could in many ways be argued as a re-imagining, much as the first new Star Trek film was, down to characters and actors from the original having plot important cameo roles. But what I wanted wasn't a re-imagining, I wanted a continuation.

That's not to say it's an awful film. It's generally well acted and well directed, the special effects are brilliant and it goes along well. If all you want is to be reminded of Star Wars or a generic sci-fi action film then you'll be well catered for. But I wanted something different from that.

I wanted Fugazi following on from Minor Threat. Instead I got a Minor Threat cover band.

Can't please every fanboy.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2015, 08:04:33 AM »
My only issues were with two of the villains, they just seemed silly choices, the supreme leader should just have been called "The New Emperor" and when the tide favored the First Order they could call the leader "Emperor" in later movies and the General commanding the First Order was too young they needed an older and seasoned actor for that role I chuckled at his big speech. For example what about having someone like Viggo Mortensen would have been powerful. I could see him as the General figure and better he would likely love being in Star Wars as a major bad guy if asked. And paying him would not have been an issue.

And one pet peeve the New Republic was winning so why call them The Resistance which wasn't explained if they said the elite arm of the military kept the title of the Resistance to rally the flag to the old guard of heroes it would have made more sense.

But overall it was awesome.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2015, 06:46:20 PM »
Saw SW : TFA yesterday with my son, and loved it.  Not as good as A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, but on par or better than Return of the Jedi, and far and away better than the prequels.  It was fun, and that is what matters most with entertainment.

However, for many of us (I was eight when A New Hope was released), Star Wars is more than just entertainment--it is a significant benchmark in our childhood, and therefore development.  The Hero With A Thousand Faces embodied in Luke Skywalker propelled me into my love of science fiction and fantasy.  Obi-Wan--along with Gandalf and Morpheus--fed my love of the Wise Old Mentor figure.  And to be honest, Carrie Fisher was my first crush and probably got me started on my fetish for petite women :P

There were flaws in this new film, sure.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Luke for a whole thirty seconds?  And no dialogue?
The capital of the New Republic wiped from the galaxy with nary a set-up for us to mourn it?  Not even an inadequate set-up like for Alderaan in the first film...
Finn left to heal without it ever being revealed if he's force-sensitive?
Poe dropped out of the story for a huge amount of time?  The modern-day Wedge with a personality!  I want more!
And not enough Captain Phasma...or her kicking any kind of ass.  I was hoping she'd be a female Boba Fett.  Then again, Boba didn't really kick any tail in the original films, either.  He did more butt-kicking as a kid in the prequels...

And it paid far more than homage to the first film...it followed it storytelling-wise in many ways.  But let's not kid ourselves and act like this is the first instance of copying in order to continue a franchise.  Plots have been re-invented and re-used for countless years.  Hollywood copied Shakespeare copied Greek tragedies copied spoken language tales.  This wasn't even the most thorough of copying jobs...that goes to Terry Brooks.  His novel The Sword of Shannara was a blatant rip-off of The Lord of the Rings, even if brilliantly so.  The Force Awakens is a retelling of the original film, but done with more modern sensibilities...and it has more than enough of its own gravitas.  I love Rey, Finn, and Poe.  I love how Chewie did more in this film as a character than all the other Star Wars films combined.  I adore Kylo Ren and his tortured, conflicted personality...despite his unforgivable sins.

Moreover, I like that different directors will have the opportunity to craft new Star Wars films, giving us their personal interpretation of the Star Wars universe.  Diversity is a wonderful thing.  I'm glad this franchise--to me more fantasy than science-fiction--has been brought into the present.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:39:59 PM by HannibalBarca »

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2015, 06:50:25 PM »
So Star Wars VIII is casting Hayden Christiansen, and I have heard people guess that he is going to be playing a cloned Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.

I have a simpler explanation: His force ghost will appear and either help the good guys, or hinder/attempt to sway Kylo Ren.  If Kylo literally worships Darth Vader, how would he react to the actual spirit of the man counseling him?

And I think my guess on Kylo's name was correct:  sKYwalker + soLO = Kylo.  Maybe he changed to that from his original name and meant it, or didn't...but it seems too coincidental to be chance as far as from a writer's perspective.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 02:17:55 AM by HannibalBarca »

Online Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2015, 07:27:45 PM »
I know my opinion won't matter because I like the prequel movies, and that's a sin, but I get the horrible feeling I'm not going to like Episode VII. I don't want a remake of Episode IV.

I think the great "retelling" of Star Wars was done in Guardians of the Galaxy. :\

Offline Kiric Rand

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2015, 08:29:26 PM »
Spoiler alert
Actually her having Luke's old Lightsaber is possible. Remember, Luke lost that saber during the dule with Vader in Bespen in Empire strikes back. He lost it when his hand was severed. Now as for how it ended up there........ yeah I am still figuring that out.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2015, 08:58:24 PM »
In the books, the ones by Timothy Zahn, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force rising and last command, there was a clone by the name of J'houurs C'boath (sp?). The original had been a Jedi master who was part of Outbound Flight which went down. In the Zahn books, C'boath managed to get a hold of Luke's hand and lightsaber, there by creating a clone of Luke. Not the first time clones were used. Emperor Palpatine resurrected in a clone body in Dark Empire. And, they said they might use story elements from the expanded universe. It would be interesting if Emperor Palpatine resurrected in a clone body and took on Snoke to reclaim his Empire?