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Author Topic: The new Star Wars  (Read 8578 times)

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Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #150 on: January 04, 2016, 06:43:58 PM »
From a Hollywood perspective though, it would be bold as brass to have a main character turn evil. I mean, how would they sell action figures?

The trite response to this would be to look at complaints that they weren't selling Rey action figures to begin with and say it wouldn't be a concern.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #151 on: January 04, 2016, 09:04:57 PM »
Yeah, I'm admittedly not a huge fan of the Vong. I felt they were somewhat out of place feeling. Star Wars EU got... weird after the Imperial Remnant wasn't the major threat. Well. Weirder.

I think a large external threat might be looming though. It is really odd for Rakata Prime to be marked otherwise.

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2016, 09:06:16 PM »
If the new films never ever touch the vong, I would be so happy, personally. I don't quite see how anyone can really like the Vong in star wars.

I enjoyed them.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2016, 09:08:24 PM »
Honestly Episode VII being basically New Hope 2.0 it kind of makes Kreia right and the Force is really an ultimately purgatorial (if not outright malicious force) that needs to be expunged from the galaxy. :P

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2016, 09:09:03 PM »
Rakata Prime will be where the First Order digs up an ancient alien superweapon.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #155 on: January 05, 2016, 02:10:40 AM »
If the new films never ever touch the vong, I would be so happy, personally. I don't quite see how anyone can really like the Vong in star wars.

Yeah, I never got the popularity of this part of the EU. I was more interested in Thrawn, and the X-Wing series' encounters with the remnants of the Empire, like Isanne Isard.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #156 on: January 05, 2016, 06:25:53 AM »
Yeah, I never got the popularity of this part of the EU. I was more interested in Thrawn, and the X-Wing series' encounters with the remnants of the Empire, like Isanne Isard.
You mean a group that were brought in that actually challenged force users to think outside of the box? The kind of baddies that didn't rely on someone with a red lightsaber and consisted mainly of hordes of extras for the jedi to zoom through until they got to said baddie with the red lighsaber? Yeah, I can see how some people might see that as annoying. Personally, I found the Vong to be rather inspiring and since they're gonna...
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Destroy Coruscant anyways
, it might as well be with something other than
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
yet another Empire super-weapon.
Plus, it would give Palpatine an actual reason for building this legion of superweapons in the first place other than," For the good of Evil everywhere! Muahahahahaha!" Considering that the book introducing Thrawn is when Palpatine forsees the coming of the Vong.

Thrawn was awesome, though.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 06:30:47 AM by Deamonbane »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #157 on: January 05, 2016, 06:32:54 AM »
I swear to God though, if there's ice anywhere but a drink in VIII I'm done. Also, if there's a swamp.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #158 on: January 05, 2016, 07:10:10 AM »
I liked the idea of the Vong more than I liked the execution. Or, to be more accurate, I liked the idea of an external force that made the Jedi and what was left of the Empire work together and that fell outside the "light side good, dark side bad" dichotomy (although that was undermined at the end). I just didn't particularly like the Vong themselves or the way those stories were told.

You mean a group that were brought in that actually challenged force users to think outside of the box? The kind of baddies that didn't rely on someone with a red lightsaber and consisted mainly of hordes of extras for the jedi to zoom through until they got to said baddie with the red lighsaber?

I'm not sure that point quite holds true with regards to the Vong; the ending of their invasion comes when some Jedi cut through a bunch of extras and then one has a lightsabre duel with the supposed big bad (which he wins) and another has a Force-battle with the mysterious power behind the throne (who's basically a dark-side user) and beats him with the power of the light-side. There may have been some interesting differences before hand (although despite being better developed than most other bad guys in EU Star Wars I always found the Vong themselves less interesting than the reaction to the Vong) but the ending to that saga was classic/generic Star Wars; the Force and Lightsabre duels.



As for the Vong (or a Vong type) in the new movies, I just can't see it. Partially that's the risk point I keep making but it's also a narrative and practical story telling one; we have what, about four hours of move time left in this new trilogy? That's not enough time to really establish a new invading race that radically break many of the rules of the existing Star Wars universe and have their own distinct (and important) society, beliefs and culture, especially when they've not been foreshadowed or pre-empted in any way. I'd put good money that the rest of the films are going to be focused almost entirely on the Resistance vs the New Order with a big side helping of Rey and Ren getting character development due to their training under Luke and Snoke, with Snoke himself possibly getting some more development/backstory (perhaps tying him in to Star Wars Rebels in the way Clone Wars gave us a lot more on General Grievous).

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2016, 07:12:38 AM »
I think the problem with the Vong for me was that it really represented the power creep that was happening at the time.

The original trilogy had the Jedi doing mostly believable things. Luke uses the Force to augment his physical capabilities, they lift some objects, there is Force Lightning as the pinnacle of the dark side.

Then the Vong storyline has Luke controlling black holes to destroy Vong fleets.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2016, 04:11:56 PM »
Okay, just got home after watching TFA!  :-)

Overall, I must admit that I liked it a lot. It was, IMHO, a much a more solid movie than the prequels (which I really dislike - not because it's cool to do so, but because I genuinely find them to be weak movies that damaged the franchise). I agree that there was a lot of stuff lifted from TNH, most probably for nostalgia reasons... still, I can accept that. I do hope that Episode 8 treads some new ground, but for now, I'm not very annoyed with TFA. In this case, I prefer this approach to some kind of sweeping re-imagining - Abrams did that with Star Trek and the results are disastrous (IMHO).

In other words: TFA is a bit of a reheated meal, but it certainly is a *tasty* reheated meal!  ;D

Notes on specific story elements:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
1. Rey - I like her! Although she is uber-competent, I agree. BTW. I'm happy to see that I wasn't the only one wondering about her rage-fighting during her duel with Ren. It felt Darksidish to me, too. So, maybe this bit *was* intentional!

2. Finn is a cool, fresh idea. He's exactly the kind of character I'd play in a Star Wars RPG  ;D Although I wish we got to see more of his change of heart - it felt a bit abrupt. And it was weird to see him gun his fellow Stormtroopers down without any kind of internal conflict...

3. Poe - well, I can only say that I hope to see more of him!

4. BB-8 - I don't care that he's R2D2 2.0, he's very cute and I like the little guy!  :-)

5. Kylo Ren - okay, am I the only one who finds him a bit pathetic? I've seen his internal conflict and pain being praised here on the thread, but I don't really find this aspect of the story to be strongly realized. Maybe if we got more insight into Ben's backstory..?

6. Overall, I would prefer if there was more backstory in the movie in general. Who formed the First Order, exactly? What is the exact relationship between the Republic and the Resistance? And who is this Snoke guy????? Episode 8 really needs to delve into these matters.

7. One thing I liked about the movie: women! Finally, they are everywhere. There are female Resistance personnel, female X-Wing pilots, female First Order military personnel, female Stormtroopers (Phasma's not the only one!)... One of the annoying things about the original trilogy is that there are almost no women in Rebellion aside from Leia and no women in the Empire at all. I'm glad they changed that!

8. Light-claymore still is a bit much for me. Every time Ren spun it around, I thought he was going to cut his hand off...

9. Han Solo's death was a bit too predictable. For meta-story reasons, but still...

10. The movie did some nice misdirection in its promotion. For a time, I was genuinely sure that Kylo Ren was guing to turn out to be Luke... And I was also sure that Finn was going to be the Force-sensitive one.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2016, 04:31:46 PM »
I think the problem with the Vong for me was that it really represented the power creep that was happening at the time.

The original trilogy had the Jedi doing mostly believable things. Luke uses the Force to augment his physical capabilities, they lift some objects, there is Force Lightning as the pinnacle of the dark side.

Then the Vong storyline has Luke controlling black holes to destroy Vong fleets.
I don't recall Force Lightning ever having been anything close to the pinnacle of the dark side. A cool side effect maybe, and something that even Jedi are known to use. Pinnacle? I don't know. There's the battle meditation, related to in the old republic games and novels, And again, not limited to the dark side, but certainly 'cheating' as it were. The Jedi after thousands of years of being institutionalized lost so much of their own power. Necessary, I guess in a universe where they are the primary force users but still, it explains why they were so easily handled by Palpatine.

I digress.

Anyways, I agree with consortium in the fact that their reaction to the Vong and the idea behind them was so much better than the storyline. I was hoping, when stories began of new Star Wars movies, that they would build up to it, and with J.J. Abrams at the helm, it would have the potential to live up to it's potential, if that makes any sense. Of course the discarded characters like Mara Jade and Boba Fett as Mandalore (Not a discarded character, but a storyline, I guess)... There was a lot of potential in the Vong, ignored by both the books and discarded by the movies.

As for now, I'm anxious to see what Snoke is.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #162 on: January 05, 2016, 05:26:42 PM »
She did specifically say in the original trilogy, and it is. Force Lighting was the secret technique busted out by the Emperor, the ultimate Big Bad of the trilogy, and it completely incapacitated Luke when we saw it used. Battle Meditation was 'technically' in the movies, but never really shown or displayed in any way, it was more of a retroactive addition to explain why the death of the Emperor meant the Imperial fleet was defeated.

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2016, 05:29:01 PM »
By canon, Boba Fett is still a Mandalorian - the clone wars series (don't give me the gruff, that series was pretty damn rock solid all around with some standout arcs/episodes!) has him dealing with mandalorians. though obviousl - he's not Mandalore in them.

Plus I believe there has been some rumors (as always) of a Boba Fett film coming out, so we'd have to see.

And yeah, Anne and Glyph are right. By the OT and even the PT - only the most powerful of the Sith (the Emperor) was the only one to use lightning. And whenever it was used, it was devastating.  By all canon accounts, force lightning is one of, if not the most dangerous technique seen that's used offensively.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2016, 07:13:05 PM »
One thing I want to say in defense of Kylo Ren, because I feel it gets missed a lot on your first viewing.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
A lot of people have complaints about how Kylo Ren gets defeated by Finn and Rey 'so easily', claiming it makes him an underwhelming villain. However, I feel the following should be noted with regards to that.

  • They spent repeated scenes building up the bowcaster as an amazingly destructive weapon. Stormtroopers are sent FLYING by the shots. Kylo Ren takes a shot right to the gut, bends over, and then keeps going. He's got amazing endurance.
  • It is pretty clear he is toying with Finn in their fight. The moment Finn lands a grazing blow against him, he takes Finn out of the picture.
  • He is under orders to take Rey to Snoke, so he can't outright kill her.
  • He is not in his right mental state in that fight either. He just lost Anakin's lightsaber because he was unable to call it to his hand. Furthermore, he just killed his father, expecting to be more powerful in the process. He is definitely shaken from that though.
  • And of course he is clearly not a fully trained Force-user at this point. He has his strong points (grabbing blaster bolts, effectively a souped up Jedi mind trick, etc), but he probably has a lot of things he has missed learning.

A bit opinion, but I also feel that Rey was dramatically drawing on the dark side in that last part of the fight as well. For Kylo Ren, who we see is having trouble channeling the dark side and is avoiding the light side, he would have been at a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 07:56:22 PM by AnneReinard »

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #165 on: January 05, 2016, 07:48:45 PM »
The only major reasons I think Kylo is a weenie is that one, he gives the most eye rolling line in the movie (I feel the light side of the force calling to me!), and two, he clearly inherited the skywalker whining gene. Surprised he didn't discuss hating sand during his time on Jakku.

Other than that, he's a fairly solid character all around.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #166 on: January 05, 2016, 08:04:16 PM »
And his whiny emo-ness, somewhat weirdly, makes him the best portrayal of the supposed Sith ideal we've seen on screen. In previous movies, the bad guys are always shown as cold manipulators and ruthless murderers, cruel but weirdly dispassionate. Comparatively, Jedi very rarely seem to live up to the emotionless, tranquil zen-warrior image they are claimed to be. (One of the few genuinely good bits of TPM was the tiny segment of the Qui-Gon/Maul fight that actually did get this right; separated by a force field, Maul paces back and forth impatiently while Qui-Gon meditates).

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #167 on: January 05, 2016, 08:11:02 PM »
And his whiny emo-ness, somewhat weirdly, makes him the best portrayal of the supposed Sith ideal we've seen on screen. In previous movies, the bad guys are always shown as cold manipulators and ruthless murderers, cruel but weirdly dispassionate. Comparatively, Jedi very rarely seem to live up to the emotionless, tranquil zen-warrior image they are claimed to be. (One of the few genuinely good bits of TPM was the tiny segment of the Qui-Gon/Maul fight that actually did get this right; separated by a force field, Maul paces back and forth impatiently while Qui-Gon meditates).

I think in some sense, Kylo is a very good example of what a Sith really would be.

They claim to be emotion and passion and how it gives them strength, how they master it... But no, they really don't. It does twist them and corrupt them and turn them into something 'lesser', in a sense. He can't control his emotions, (Well, he can wreck computers and hardware instead of slicing up a subordinate), but overall he's more like a rabid animal than anything.He has the subtlety of a wrecking ball and does not know nuance, he instead just takes what he wants, is fueled by emotions of anger and rage in between this bouts of what look like depression almost - and every scene with him really does look like he's just about to start murdering people. If Darth Vader is some sort of figure who inspires awe and dread just because stories of his cruelty have spread, and by acting utterly cold during said cruelty, Kylo is basically a berserker and a wild card by all accounts.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #168 on: January 05, 2016, 08:28:28 PM »
I actually like these varied portrayals of what are philosophies about how powerful people treat a mystical force.

Never forget that there were militant sects of Buddhism that used guns.


Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #169 on: January 05, 2016, 08:59:28 PM »
I actually like these varied portrayals of what are philosophies about how powerful people treat a mystical force.

Never forget that there were militant sects of Buddhism that used guns.

So do I, don't get me wrong.

But for every darth vader or Sheev, there are a thousand Kylo Rens, people who want to think they can master the dark side but clearly can't.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #170 on: January 05, 2016, 09:11:28 PM »
I actually really liked the twist of 'I can feel the light side calling me.' We always see the dark side portrayed as this corrupting, vile force. But the only canon source of really strong force lore (the episode about the Ones in Clone Wars) suggests that the Dark Side and Light Side need to be in BALANCE with each other. And not in the sense that the dark side is an inherently unbalancing use of the Force.

I REALLY hope that they pull more along this route in Episode VIII to have strong characters. That and I want Jedistormpilot.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #171 on: January 05, 2016, 09:19:47 PM »
Well, considering Ren's philosophy is based on a lie that's not surprising.


Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #172 on: January 05, 2016, 09:22:35 PM »
I think the novelization, admittedly based on an earlier script, does have a scene where they are aware of Darth Vader's betrayal of the Emperor on the Death Star. They see it a weakness that brought along the downfall of the Empire.

...I still think he'll learn better.

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #173 on: January 05, 2016, 09:33:30 PM »
I personally wouldn't trust the novelization.

I'm still holding out for a reversal of the 'I am your father' scene

'What did Snoke tell you about your grandfather?'

'He told me enough! he told me he was a great sith!'

'No, I am your grandfather. Kylo, you can destroy the first order. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can save the galaxy as grandfather and grandson! Come with me. It is the only way.'

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #174 on: January 06, 2016, 12:25:01 PM »
The trite response to this would be to look at complaints that they weren't selling Rey action figures to begin with and say it wouldn't be a concern.

Well, I mean initially I had been joking but also: what? A quick Google search and I found loads of Rey action figurines for sale... One for a, frankly, ridiculous amount of money...

Regarding the current discussion of the Vong:

Now a lot of people seem a good deal more clued up on the EU than I am. I am only aware of the Vong to the extent that they invaded, that was why Palpatine made the Empire and the Death Star (he predicted it), and eventually the Good Guys stopped them. Plus that whole thing led to everything going wrong with Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. However, while I am aware of the broad strokes (due to rather too much time spent on Wookiepedia), I don't really know all the intricate details and I have never actually read any of the books. So it seems that a few folk in the thread kind of disliked them in the stories (although some liked the premise behind them, if we look at consortim), or at least how the whole arc ended. As I am unable to really comment on the intricacies I can only say that I also just like the whole premise of them, or at least of some kind of external invasion which causes the factions of the Galaxy to team up despite their differences.

At least that would be preferable to a whole new trilogy of Resistance versus New Order, because that would just be faaaar too samey for my liking. So yeah, I'm holding out for an external invasion or more focus on the Force side of things (here's hoping Rey turns to the Dark Side).

I think in some sense, Kylo is a very good example of what a Sith really would be.

They claim to be emotion and passion and how it gives them strength, how they master it... But no, they really don't. It does twist them and corrupt them and turn them into something 'lesser', in a sense. He can't control his emotions, (Well, he can wreck computers and hardware instead of slicing up a subordinate), but overall he's more like a rabid animal than anything.He has the subtlety of a wrecking ball and does not know nuance, he instead just takes what he wants, is fueled by emotions of anger and rage in between this bouts of what look like depression almost - and every scene with him really does look like he's just about to start murdering people. If Darth Vader is some sort of figure who inspires awe and dread just because stories of his cruelty have spread, and by acting utterly cold during said cruelty, Kylo is basically a berserker and a wild card by all accounts.

I'm not quite sure I agree with this... The whole point of the Sith is that they draw their strength from their emotions and that they don't master them... For Vader for example (not Anakin) it was always pretty clear he was drawing on hatred for his strength. Primarily his hatred for Palpatine actually. I think I far prefer Vader to Kylo Ren, I prefer his style and the sense of him drawing his power from his emotions. Of course, this might also be because Darth Vader is simply a more interesting character to me, far cooler, more iconic and simply better. But that's just me...

One thing I want to say in defense of Kylo Ren, because I feel it gets missed a lot on your first viewing.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
A lot of people have complaints about how Kylo Ren gets defeated by Finn and Rey 'so easily', claiming it makes him an underwhelming villain. However, I feel the following should be noted with regards to that.

  • They spent repeated scenes building up the bowcaster as an amazingly destructive weapon. Stormtroopers are sent FLYING by the shots. Kylo Ren takes a shot right to the gut, bends over, and then keeps going. He's got amazing endurance.
  • It is pretty clear he is toying with Finn in their fight. The moment Finn lands a grazing blow against him, he takes Finn out of the picture.
  • He is under orders to take Rey to Snoke, so he can't outright kill her.
  • He is not in his right mental state in that fight either. He just lost Anakin's lightsaber because he was unable to call it to his hand. Furthermore, he just killed his father, expecting to be more powerful in the process. He is definitely shaken from that though.
  • And of course he is clearly not a fully trained Force-user at this point. He has his strong points (grabbing blaster bolts, effectively a souped up Jedi mind trick, etc), but he probably has a lot of things he has missed learning.

A bit opinion, but I also feel that Rey was dramatically drawing on the dark side in that last part of the fight as well. For Kylo Ren, who we see is having trouble channeling the dark side and is avoiding the light side, he would have been at a disadvantage.

Despite what you say, there is no question that he does get defeated fairly "easily"... At the end though, that isn't really what bothered me. What bothered me more was how swiftly Rey seemed able to actually match Kylo, even if he was weak...Now, I would never have said he was toying with Finn, considering that in my memory Finn basically starts the fight by injuring Kylo and then Kylo struggles a bit before taking Finn out. Admittedly, he is wounded and in a pretty bad place mentally, but the fact that he lost both a lightsaber duel and a content of the Force with Rey is kind of unacceptable. In the same way that its unacceptable that Rey somehow learns how to use a Mind Trick without any prior training or experience.

I mean, he SEEMS strong. At the start that whole thing with catching a blaster bolt was fucking awesome! It's just that it felt like they both suddenly weakened him dramatically at the end (arguably because of the conflicting emotions at killing Han and so lacking in strength) but they also massively overpowered Rey. And that's my issue.

Also... Kylo really IS a poor man's Vader. Heck, I think the film even tried to make that clear with the whole "You'll never be as strong as Darth Vader" thing (incidentally, the fact that Rey won that particular battle is also unacceptable).