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Author Topic: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies  (Read 136984 times)

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Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #650 on: April 30, 2015, 01:44:27 PM »
Spider-Man has always been in a way geared towards the younger crowd. I think that is their mindset. Spider-man has to be young to draw in the kids. And, they already have the other movies filled with adults. I don't see a "teen" Spider-Man fitting in with the Avengers. I see them having him hopping around on a constant sugar rush, cracking jokes and trying to be funny to "lighten" the mood.

It might not be entirely Kevin Feige's decision. They said ultimately Sony has the final say. I don't understand why they couldn't just buy back the rights instead of having this strange deal.

Offline CuriousEyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #651 on: April 30, 2015, 02:10:52 PM »
Well they've been doing pretty well on average so far for each movie and TV show, so hopefully this won't break that streak.

Changes in showrunners can be really noticeable. The Walking Dead have had... 3, so far I think. Darabont left in the middle of the second season and they brought up a new one at the end of the third season. It's not solely on the showrunner good or bad because there's so much at play, but you can really tell stylistic/philosophical differences between each if you watch the episodes closely.

The most current showrunner is hewing much closer to the comic storylines for example.


I see them having him hopping around on a constant sugar rush, cracking jokes and trying to be funny to "lighten" the mood.

Which is even worse for me because of how horrible I found that kid (guy? he's actually 18? geez) in Ender's Game. Granted that was a horrible movie that abused and disgraced one of my favorite tween/early-teen novels, but that kid did not help.

It might not be entirely Kevin Feige's decision. They said ultimately Sony has the final say. I don't understand why they couldn't just buy back the rights instead of having this strange deal.

My impression is that Sony was less desperate to part with Spiderman than Marvel was to get him in the MCU, the rights purchase was ironclad in the same way the X-Men are (so there was no just "waiting it out" for them to revert back to Marvel), and all sides knew it - they just didn't have the negotiating leverage or the money to do it otherwise.


Either way, I give Marvel a lot of leeway - they've proven me wrong on the MCU more times than I'd like to admit. I don't have access to their scripts or auditions, so I'm just going to have to hope that they see something I don't.

Personally though, if they're trying to revisit Peter Parker in the teen years, I really liked the Ansel Elgort rumors.

Offline Matttheman89

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #652 on: April 30, 2015, 02:15:19 PM »
Spider-Man has always been in a way geared towards the younger crowd. I think that is their mindset. Spider-man has to be young to draw in the kids. And, they already have the other movies filled with adults. I don't see a "teen" Spider-Man fitting in with the Avengers. I see them having him hopping around on a constant sugar rush, cracking jokes and trying to be funny to "lighten" the mood.

It might not be entirely Kevin Feige's decision. They said ultimately Sony has the final say. I don't understand why they couldn't just buy back the rights instead of having this strange deal.

Because Sony knows EXACTLY how much Spider-Man is worth. He's one of the most popular Superheroes of all time, and having control over that franchise gives them a very marketable property. The potential profit that they COULD make off of the character in the future outweighs the amount of money that they might be able to squeeze out of Marvel/Disney by selling him back.

That said, it's pretty clear they don't know what to do with Spider-Man anymore. Sony obviously wanted to try and build up a movie universe around the character that could rival the MCU, but that approach didn't work out. And having already used all of Spidey's biggest rogues throughout both movie franchises in one way or another, they've painted themselves into a corner creativity-wise. (Don't get me wrong, I like most of Spider-Man's villains, but the majority of them couldn't hold down a movie alone. And we've seen what happens when they try to make up for that by using multiple villains per movie twice now.)

So the simplest solution is to allow Marvel to handle the majority of the legwork from here on out. By injecting Spidey into the MCU and allowing Marvel to build him up for them this time, Sony gets to sit back and reap the reward. Meanwhile, Marvel gets to play with their most popular character within the sandbox they've created; knowing they at least have some say in what happens to him from here on out. Sony definitely comes out ahead in this arrangement, but it's basically a win-win.

Offline CuriousEyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #653 on: April 30, 2015, 02:55:25 PM »
And having already used all of Spidey's biggest rogues throughout both movie franchises in one way or another, they've painted themselves into a corner creativity-wise. (Don't get me wrong, I like most of Spider-Man's villains, but the majority of them couldn't hold down a movie alone. And we've seen what happens when they try to make up for that by using multiple villains per movie twice now.)

I still think they could have done an amazing Carnage storyline. I can't remember which comic run it was based on but I remember reading one years ago that was basically just Carnage assembled a group of psychopaths that were attacking NYC just for the fun of it, murdering everyone. I think something like that could have been adapted into a grittier take on Spidey - kind of marry the Dark Knight Joker nihilism with a bit more of the Marvel sparkle.

Offline Matttheman89

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #654 on: April 30, 2015, 04:00:36 PM »
That's Maximum Carnage. It could work as a movie, but it would probably only work with at least one movie to lead in to it establishing Venom as well; considering how heavily he factors into that storyline as a foil to Spider-Man.

I can only imagine that they would have to alter or outright remove large chunks of that storyline to fit it into a movie. There are so many characters that are completely unnecessary and serve no purpose at all in that story. Morbius and Deathlok wouldn't need to be there, and the running sub-plot from that time concerning Peter's parents is just a waste of time. Captain America should be left in the story though. He doesn't play a huge role in the overall plot, but he does help Spider-Man with the moral and ethical problems that the character goes through during that story.

Were that movie to be made, that's what I would want to really be the focus of the plot. Spider-Man's personal journey as he struggles to stay on the heroic and noble path during all of the chaos surrounding him as Carnage runs rampant through the city. The actual comic goes over that problem a few too many times for it's own good, but were the plot to be streamlined you could really get something out of it.

Offline Beorning

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #655 on: April 30, 2015, 04:42:24 PM »
Ha. If I may cut in, I'd like to say that Maximum Carnage was an awful, awful storyline. It was, basically, a dozen or so of issues with people punching each other. Too many characters, only a rudimentary plot... It wasn't one of Spider-comics' finest moments...

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #656 on: April 30, 2015, 05:13:06 PM »
Then you had the other Symbiotes running around. The Spider clone saga wasn't that much better either. Wasn't there going to be a Venom movie in the works? Or, has that been shelved? Then, recently there was talk of Spider-Girl getting a tv series. Which might work in their favor. Drawing out the story over multiple episodes, taking time to develop the characters. If they were going to redo Spidey, start with him graduating high school, and entering the world as Spider-man.

I didn't see Ender's Game, but it didn't do well at the box office despite some of the big names attached. I just have an all around bad feeling. Personally, I liked Sam Raimi's Spider-man. Granted it wasn't perfect in some of the casting, but it had that comic book adventure feel.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #657 on: April 30, 2015, 05:56:09 PM »
There is money for Spider-Man sure...but at the rate Sony's going how much longer will it be before they can no longer rely on the reputation to pull in Marvel Fans? At this point anyone who is going to watch a Spider-Man film knows what they are in for.

And I really wouldn't be surprised if Sony makes the same damn mistake again and try to shove as many characters as possible into their movie to make it better since they were dumb enough to do it not once but TWICE. I really feel like this wont be so much as a partnership but more of a competition between Sony and Marvel with Sony now using the excuse Spidey is in the Marvel verse to pull more people in to watch Spider-Man again. So they will try their hardest to make "their" movies better than other Marvel movies and go overbord.

It feels like this is going to become more of a Spidey vs. the Marvel Universe in pulling in Box Office money.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #658 on: April 30, 2015, 08:40:22 PM »
After watching a video about the origin of Agent Venom, I now wish we could get a movie about him, id love to see this become the cannon permanently for venom. For a man who did all of that, I can believe that he has the strength of will to command the Venom Symbiote.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 09:01:42 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #659 on: April 30, 2015, 09:41:24 PM »
From what I read, that's not really how it goes down (I'm talking about the picture of Flash Thompson from the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon) and he's not all that interesting. You'd be better off with the Punisher.

Feige himself stated he wanted there to be stories from Spidey's teen years, so yeah, he's guilty of that atrocious line of thinking.

Maximum Carnage was fun as fuck to read, I loved it, but yeah, as a story arc it would be ridiculous to have as a movie. Maybe an animated one where you didn't have continuity restraints.

I want them to get Venom's origin RIGHT for once, damn it. That's why they should not have gone straight into Infinity War and done a Secret War first. Get each of them to set foot on an alien world, test them for survival when the only stakes are their own lives, use the opportunity to introduce some new characters while they're at it, some aliens and such, to build up to Infinity War where the alien villain isn't so much more like a leap up the mountain rather than a hike up the slope.

Much as I like Ultimate Spider-Man (the cartoon and the comic), none of his story arcs are worth putting to the big screen, at least none of the ones that didn't involve cameos by one or more of the other big heroes. Grown-up Spidey having marital difficulties, an elderly relative to worry about, and having to be a lower-middle-class guy struggling between working and being a superhero, now THAT is something the other Avengers never have to balance in their day-to-day lives. Is that really any worse than him having to worry about being late for school, sleeping in class or forgetting to do his homework? Kids are going to see fucking Spider-Man whether or not he's their age and I can prove it: A woman brought her goddamn six-year-old to Captain America the Winter Soldier for Christ's sake (and the little bastard wouldn't shut the fuck up the entire time.) Captain America's a grownup with literally nothing in common with the average person today of any age, but had no problem in attracting a wide audience. Spider-Man would be no different, in fact, he'd probably be a sight better. If you're going to make him be in high school you officially have to start calling him Spider-Boy. How much box office would a name like THAT attract?

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #660 on: April 30, 2015, 09:56:41 PM »
A 6 year old to Winter Soldier?...that was full of a lot of death, I wouldn't take my kid to that till he was like 8 or 9.

Awww but it vid made it sound so cool. (I never really liked the Cartoon but I may just check these comics out)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 09:58:53 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Matttheman89

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #661 on: April 30, 2015, 10:21:09 PM »
Agent Venom is the best! I agree, if there's ever a Venom movie I'd want it to be about Flash Thompson instead of Eddie Brock. He's become one of my favorite comic book characters of all time since taking on the Venom Symbiote, and it's really interesting to look back on his character development over the years. You'd never have expected Peter's high school bully to make such an amazing transition.

I really can't say much about the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon version, since I haven't really seen anything of his character since the episode where they finally did make him Agent Venom. Needless to say, it's nowhere near as cool. But it's not terrible. It's just much simpler.

But yeah, mainstream Agent Venom is the best. If he EVER gets another ongoing comic I'm picking it up for sure. If you want to see him in stuff right now though, you'd have to read Guardians of the Galaxy. They added him to the team last year to serve as a link between the Guardians and the Avengers back on Earth. And then there's going to be a miniseries soon exploring what might have happened in a Spider-Man story from a few years ago called 'Spider-Island' had Spider-Man failed to save the day and it had been left to Venom instead.

Other than that, there's his old series to read that's been collected fully by now. And for most of the last run of Thunderbolts, Agent Venom was a part of the roster. Oh, and he was a part of the Secret Avengers for awhile too!

Yeah...I know too much.  :-[

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #662 on: April 30, 2015, 11:30:52 PM »
A 6 year old to Winter Soldier?...that was full of a lot of death, I wouldn't take my kid to that till he was like 8 or 9.

Awww but it vid made it sound so cool. (I never really liked the Cartoon but I may just check these comics out)

I'm just guesstimating. He was too obnoxious to be older than 10. Still, younger than anyone has any business taking to a movie like that.

Offline CuriousEyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #663 on: May 01, 2015, 07:44:36 AM »
Ha. If I may cut in, I'd like to say that Maximum Carnage was an awful, awful storyline. It was, basically, a dozen or so of issues with people punching each other. Too many characters, only a rudimentary plot... It wasn't one of Spider-comics' finest moments...

In my defense, when I read it I was maybe 10 years old and I'm not sure I even read the whole thing versus one or two issues out of order, so my tastes might not have been too refined and I'm remembering it through that prism. Kind of like how kid version of you might remember a toy being infinitely cooler than the adult version realizes when they find it again.

But as a general action-centric storyline, my vague memories of it make me feel like it could be a cool movie adaptation.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #664 on: May 01, 2015, 08:57:24 AM »
In my defense, when I read it I was maybe 10 years old and I'm not sure I even read the whole thing versus one or two issues out of order, so my tastes might not have been too refined and I'm remembering it through that prism. Kind of like how kid version of you might remember a toy being infinitely cooler than the adult version realizes when they find it again.

But as a general action-centric storyline, my vague memories of it make me feel like it could be a cool movie adaptation.

If they were going to do it as a Netflix series, it could easily fill up an entire season. But not a two-hour movie, even with all the setup required being done ahead of time. And even today, I know I'd still feel as fondly for it as I did when I first read it. Nothing was more heartening than when, at the time when all the heroes were down for the count and had no hope of being able to defeat their foes, Captain America shows up and helps Spider-Man up, offering his help.

Offline CuriousEyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #665 on: May 01, 2015, 08:23:52 PM »
So I realize I'm nobody to be making demands in a thread, but if I could make a polite request...?

At least for the next few weeks, could anyone who wants to discuss Age of Ultron beyond generalities ("I thought it was good/bad") hide plot points or spoilers behind the appropriate tags for those who might not have seen it?

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #666 on: May 01, 2015, 09:50:01 PM »
So I realize I'm nobody to be making demands in a thread, but if I could make a polite request...?

At least for the next few weeks, could anyone who wants to discuss Age of Ultron beyond generalities ("I thought it was good/bad") hide plot points or spoilers behind the appropriate tags for those who might not have seen it?

How about just make a thread for that specifically?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #667 on: May 02, 2015, 06:45:01 AM »
That sounds good.

Personally, I enjoyed the crap out of it, I can't think of anything I didn't enjoy and only a few very minor things that bothered me.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #668 on: May 02, 2015, 09:00:02 AM »
That sounds good.

Personally, I enjoyed the crap out of it, I can't think of anything I didn't enjoy and only a few very minor things that bothered me.

That's kind of my feeling about all of them, little things that could have been changed, added, omitted, whatever. It's just a given they're not going to get EVERYTHING right that they possibly can, not even with Joss Whedon at the helm. Too bad he's stepping down from the MCU for the foreseeable future. Hopefully DC doesn't try to snatch him up, they don't deserve him after all the cheap stuff they're already pulling. Did they show the Ant-Man trailer during the previews, and if so, was it the first one where it didn't show much of anything, or the awesome second one? I want to see it on the big screen and in 3D instead of just on youtube.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #669 on: May 02, 2015, 09:01:55 AM »
The good Ant-Man trailer was the one they showed.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #670 on: May 02, 2015, 09:13:19 AM »
Didn't DC at one point want him to direct a Justice League or Wonder Woman movie?

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #671 on: May 02, 2015, 09:26:43 AM »
Didn't DC at one point want him to direct a Justice League or Wonder Woman movie?

At this point it feels like that movie is becoming a punch line with how deep in development hell its trapped.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 10:13:29 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #672 on: May 02, 2015, 09:53:45 AM »
Speaking of Wonder Woman I hope Gal Gaddot put on some muscle or something or Wonder Woman fans are going to gripe over her how thin she will be compared to the Amazon she is playing.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #673 on: May 02, 2015, 10:23:00 AM »
Wonder Woman: The Duke Nukem Forever of comic book movies.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #674 on: May 02, 2015, 11:40:16 AM »
Didn't DC at one point want him to direct a Justice League or Wonder Woman movie?

Who wouldn't want him involved in at least one of their projects? I just hope he has some integrity and sticks with Marvel until DC finally gets their damn act together.

Didn't Wonder Woman have a new TV show that never got off the ground? Maybe that was what they wanted Whedon for.

DC is really weirding me out with their casting choices. So many of them, I've never even heard of before (Jai Courtney, Margot Robbie, Gal Godot, Ray Fisher, David Momoa) but Marvel doesn't seem to be doing nearly as much. Chris Hemsworth and Cobie Smulders were basically the only ones I'd never heard of before the MCU. I mean, maybe that's the DC strategy, don't just get a bunch of A-list talent either to further distance themselves (fat chance) from Marvel's formula, or to avoid spending too much on actors if the films bomb. It doesn't look good though, feels more like scraping the bottom of the barrel.