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Author Topic: What's in the news?  (Read 173037 times)

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Offline Cycle

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1700 on: August 11, 2015, 10:14:04 AM »
Civilian "Oath Keepers" have now shown up in Ferguson, bearing assault weapons.



Oh yeah.  This is a good idea.


Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1701 on: August 11, 2015, 10:25:17 AM »
Hey.... fight fire with fire....

It worked.... a couple hundred years ago, but then again, none of these people on the pictures look like their IQ is much higher than their shoe size..

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1702 on: August 11, 2015, 11:20:26 AM »
Okay National Guard seriously needs to come back, at this point the inmates are running the asylum. @_@

Offline Sara Nilsson

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1703 on: August 11, 2015, 02:38:56 PM »
Civilian "Oath Keepers" have now shown up in Ferguson, bearing assault weapons.



Oh yeah.  This is a good idea.

must not scream about the use of the word assault weapons.

but yeah what can possibly go wrong.. fucking douchebags.. why dont they just throw dynamite on the fire and just get it done with.. *grumbles*

i wonder.. do these people even think.. hey civilians showing up with weapons must be a good idea right? is there even two braincells in their tiny heads that go.. eh.. think this might escalate things with white men with weapons showing up? it boggles the mind how fucking stupid some people are
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 03:07:23 PM by Sara Nilsson »

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1704 on: August 11, 2015, 02:56:04 PM »
must not scream about the use of the word assault weapons.

  Why is it inaccurate? Assault weapon is a pretty vague term for a weapon that "usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip", which the weapons pictured seem to include. Its not like an assault rifle which has a far more specific definition.

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1705 on: August 11, 2015, 03:06:46 PM »
  Why is it inaccurate? Assault weapon is a pretty vague term for a weapon that "usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip", which the weapons pictured seem to include. Its not like an assault rifle which has a far more specific definition.

I believe the vagueness of the term (you just described an ultralight holdout pistol and a medium squad-carried machine gun) combined with its overuse as a media buzzword. 

Also to further incite my seething hatred of humanity: Father lets daughter drown rather than have male rescuers touch her

Offline Sara Nilsson

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1706 on: August 11, 2015, 03:09:13 PM »
  Why is it inaccurate? Assault weapon is a pretty vague term for a weapon that "usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip", which the weapons pictured seem to include. Its not like an assault rifle which has a far more specific definition.

not to go off topic. because it is extremely vague. what is an assault weapon in one state isnt one in another. and it also to many non gun owners paint the picture that isnt quite true. So it is just a vague term that really doesn't say much and it confuses people to think it is some military style weapon (which.. most of them sure as heck arent")

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1707 on: August 11, 2015, 03:16:32 PM »
I believe the vagueness of the term (you just described an ultralight holdout pistol and a medium squad-carried machine gun) combined with its overuse as a media buzzword.

  Is there a better word to use? Firearm is even vaguer, that could be a well maintained WW1 revolver. Assault weapon maybe vague, but if there's no better way to distinguish these kind of weapons from handguns then its a useful term. High capacity semi-automatic rifle sounds like ti could work. Any shorter way of referencing that. 40k had "pistol", "basic" and "heavy". Any real world counterpart to that?

not to go off topic. because it is extremely vague. what is an assault weapon in one state isnt one in another. and it also to many non gun owners paint the picture that isnt quite true. So it is just a vague term that really doesn't say much and it confuses people to think it is some military style weapon (which.. most of them sure as heck arent")

  I think the fact that those weapons look like assault rifles to non-gun owners is going to contribute far more to that misunderstanding than the term used to describe them.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 03:21:56 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline Cycle

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1708 on: August 11, 2015, 03:35:32 PM »
What term would you use to describe those things the men are holding?


Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1709 on: August 11, 2015, 03:56:21 PM »
I would call them rifles. 

Assault weapon isn't incorrect; it's just a very politically charged term that conveys specific connotations and a specific agenda.  A rifle might be used for hunting game; an assault weapon is specifically intended to wage war and kill people.  The term is also vague to the point of confusing; attempts by lawmakers to ban assault weapons have been weirdly convoluted, devolving to what type of material stocks are made of and other strange non-issues that generally try to define "it looks scary." 

Edit:

I think the fact that those weapons look like assault rifles to non-gun owners is going to contribute far more to that misunderstanding than the term used to describe them.

This is another aspect of the vagueness.  An assault rifle (v. assault weapon) is a clearly defined term, meaning a weapon capable of firing multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger (three round burst, fully automatic) and those are illegal throughout the US (and have been for a long time). 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 04:08:20 PM by eBadger »

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1710 on: August 11, 2015, 04:03:26 PM »
Fun Fact: A musket Technically counts as an Assault Rifle in some states :P


Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1711 on: August 11, 2015, 04:12:20 PM »
I would call them rifles.

  That's is probably much more confusing for non-gun owners. A rifle is that gun people hunt with. Googling "rifle" doesn't get you anything approaching the weapons we see in the picture until the 11th image.

Assault weapon isn't incorrect; it's just a very politically charged term that conveys specific connotations and a specific agenda.  A rifle might be used for hunting game; an assault weapon is specifically intended to wage war and kill people.  The term is also vague to the point of confusing; attempts by lawmakers to ban assault weapons have been weirdly convoluted, devolving to what type of material stocks are made of and other strange non-issues that generally try to define "it looks scary."

  Again, that seems kinda useful. They do look scary. As I said, they look like assault rifles. Not a useful distinction legally yes, but useful for the media. I doubt the aethetic choice was accidental.

Fun Fact: A musket Technically counts as an Assault Rifle in some states :P

  Which states?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 04:14:46 PM by LisztesFerenc »

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1712 on: August 11, 2015, 04:22:43 PM »

  Which states?

I don't actually remember, I saw it last year put up as a joke on a little flyer at a gunshop and I only looked at it in passing...miught have changed since then now that I think about it.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1713 on: August 11, 2015, 04:30:06 PM »
I don't actually remember, I saw it last year put up as a joke on a little flyer at a gunshop and I only looked at it in passing...miught have changed since then now that I think about it.

  It might also have never been true to begin with. Both sides are guilty of it. I saw statistic for child suicides by gun per year, and an asterisks next to it that then redefined child, bumping the age bracket by a couple of years (it was either 19 or 21), to artificially inflate the number.

This is another aspect of the vagueness.  An assault rifle (v. assault weapon) is a clearly defined term, meaning a weapon capable of firing multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger (three round burst, fully automatic) and those are illegal throughout the US (and have been for a long time).

  I'm pretty sure that's any fully automatic weapon you've jut defined (which are universally illegal). An assault rifle has additional requirements (from wiki):

It must be an individual weapon
It must be capable of selective fire
It must have an intermediate-power cartridge: more power than a pistol but less than a standard rifle or battle rifle
Its ammunition must be supplied from a detachable box magazine
And it should have an effective range of at least 300 metres (330 yards)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 05:02:23 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1714 on: August 11, 2015, 05:13:22 PM »
That's is probably much more confusing for non-gun owners. A rifle is that gun people hunt with. Googling "rifle" doesn't get you anything approaching the weapons we see in the picture until the 11th image.

*Shrugs* Googling "Car" doesn't bring up my prius until the 31st image.  And it doesn't hold a lot in common with the sports car concept that's #1. 

The confusion is largely due to the fact that there isn't much difference, which is pretty much the point.  The ergonomic issues are the most obvious (pistol grips and stock styles) but in reality have very little to do with how deadly a weapon is.  Materials are the second most obvious, but again a plastic stock is there for durability, not performance.  There are clips, but again that's misleading; my own rifle looks pretty similar to this and has a comparable capacity to an M16A1 (it's just a tad slower to reload).  But everything about 'assault weapons' ultimately comes down to cosmetic features and emotional responses, not about actually preventing deaths, which - whatever side of the debate you're on - should be the more important issue. 

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1715 on: August 11, 2015, 05:19:23 PM »
*Shrugs* Googling "Car" doesn't bring up my prius until the 31st image.  And it doesn't hold a lot in common with the sports car concept that's #1.

  Right, but there's a term for that, sports car.

  Plus when you google "rifle", google will show some assault rifles as well, which the uninformed will quite easily conclude that the weapons they saw earlier refereed to as rifles, were assault rifles. You're method of naming will result in more confusion if people do some basic research.

But everything about 'assault weapons' ultimately comes down to cosmetic features and emotional responses, not about actually preventing deaths, which - whatever side of the debate you're on - should be the more important issue.

  So "assault weapon" is an aesthetic distinction. Nothing wrong with that. Its a pretty useful distinction too, since the aesthetic is presumably important to the people carrying those guns. Or we can come up with a new term for "rifle made to resemble assault rifle". In either case, it seems like it would be useful to have a way to distinguished a regular looking hunting rifle, and the kind the people above are wielding.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 05:22:36 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1716 on: August 11, 2015, 06:00:45 PM »
Right, but there's a term for that, sports car.

Which is still a car.  And the point remains that both those things the men are carrying and those things you think of when you see a hunter are basically the same, with only cosmetic differences, and both are called rifles. 

Plus when you google "rifle", google will show some assault rifles as well, which the uninformed will quite easily conclude that the weapons they saw earlier refereed to as rifles, were assault rifles.

Assault rifles are rifles, just as sports cars are cars.  Again, as I stated earlier, the salient detail about assault rifles is the ability to fire multiple rounds with a single trigger pull, which no, won't show up well on pictures. 

So "assault weapon" is an aesthetic distinction. Nothing wrong with that. Its a pretty useful distinction too, since the aesthetic is presumably important to the people carrying those guns. Or we can come up with a new term for "rifle made to resemble assault rifle". In either case, it seems like it would be useful to have a way to distinguished a regular looking hunting rifle, and the kind the people above are wielding.

Well...not terribly. 





Again, this is sort of like two people meeting together to discuss a hazardous crosswalk; one says the street should be closed, so there won't be any cars that might hit people.  The other says no, people need to commute to work, we need to educate them on how to drive safely.  In the end, they ban all the red cars. 

And I think we've reached beyond simple clarification, where we ought to break this off into a new topic if we want to continue :)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 06:02:13 PM by eBadger »

Offline Cycle

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1717 on: August 11, 2015, 06:10:20 PM »
Why do you think those people were in Ferguson, with their weapons and ammunition clips on display?


Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1718 on: August 11, 2015, 06:16:52 PM »
Well...not terribly.

  ..what does that have to do with the idea that its useful to have a term to refer to military imitation guns? Yes, you said there is little difference in performance, and yet these men all chose weapons that look like they belong on a solider. That is likely not a coincidence. Having a word that can refer to that mindset is useful. Maybe assault weapon isn't a good word for that, but until there's a better one, assault weapon is all the media has.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 06:18:24 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1719 on: August 11, 2015, 06:23:32 PM »
Assault Weapon discussion continued here.

Back to the News!

Offline Blythe

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1720 on: August 11, 2015, 06:38:07 PM »
Oklahoman dude who killed his stepfather with an 'atomic wedgie' got 30 years

I had wondered what sentence he was going to get. Still, though, when rereading that article I quietly 'wtf' at the going-ons in my state.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1721 on: August 11, 2015, 07:17:18 PM »
Why do you think those people were in Ferguson, with their weapons and ammunition clips on display?

If they are the same people featured in this Cracked article, it's because they are bug-house nuts.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-infiltrating-armed-militia-group/

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1722 on: August 12, 2015, 01:49:19 AM »
dear god, those guys are drinking so much of the conspiracy coolaid... thank god they are a shrinking minority.

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1723 on: August 13, 2015, 08:14:48 AM »
 Big explosion in China, at least 50 dead so far, more bodies being found.

 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/13/tianjin-explosions-china-sends-troops-cleanup

 This is why regulations are a needed thing.

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1724 on: August 13, 2015, 06:00:39 PM »
Big explosion in China, at least 50 dead so far, more bodies being found.

 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/13/tianjin-explosions-china-sends-troops-cleanup

 This is why regulations are a needed thing.

*sagenods* Looks like that building wasn't placed very safely - I wonder what kind of stuff it actually was that triggered the blast, but dangerous operations with high-explosive and auto-flammable substances really shouldn't be places in the middle of an urban area. Producing, like, fireworks or airplane fuel near a residential area is idiotic.