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Author Topic: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?  (Read 12850 times)

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Offline Kythia

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2014, 04:19:12 PM »
Fair enough. The amount of interpretations and confessions is mind-boggling indeed. But what do you mean by 'Except of course for all the new prophets that have been sent'? What kind of prophets were sent to Earth, according to the mainstream holy scriptures, after Muhammad? Joseph Smith Jr.? I mean, in case some Christian confessions actually think some priests among them are new prophets I wasn't aware of that.

This question is far too big to be sensibly answered.  It varies by religion and denomination.  I accept neither Mohammed nor Joseph Smith as a prophet for example.  Formless and a random Mormon presumably don't accept Aquinas as divinely inspired.  None of the three of us accept Bahá'u'lláh as divinely inspired, despite the fact others do.

Quote
Still the question remains unanswered despite you poking holes in my posts. Is it a religion of peace then or not? Or is it what you make it out to be? Because in this case many will make it a religion of war anyway, as they have done and are doing right now.

Shjade answered your question upthread.  It didn't really seem to me there was any more to say on that particular matter.

EDIT:  Hyperlink mistake
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 04:22:07 PM by Kythia »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2014, 05:08:14 PM »
The same term that we use for those people that want to put creationism in US text books?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology

That might be a bit closer an analogy I think.

Offline Shjade

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2014, 05:09:30 PM »
I would argue that one has to admit that ISIS is Islam.

Sure! And I would argue that one has to admit the Westboro Baptist Church is Christianity.

What's that you say? That would be a highly prejudicial (against Christianity) and baseless argument to make since no one organization is the same as the precepts it used to form its organization, much less one interpreting those precepts in as extreme and unorthodox a manner as could be imagined?

On reflection, you're right: it would be. I take it back.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2014, 07:50:28 PM »
Sure! And I would argue that one has to admit the Westboro Baptist Church is Christianity.

What's that you say? That would be a highly prejudicial (against Christianity) and baseless argument to make since no one organization is the same as the precepts it used to form its organization, much less one interpreting those precepts in as extreme and unorthodox a manner as could be imagined?

On reflection, you're right: it would be. I take it back.

Please refrain from sticking words in other people's mouths.

Online Qt

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2014, 11:42:27 PM »
Sure! And I would argue that one has to admit the Westboro Baptist Church is Christianity.

What's that you say? That would be a highly prejudicial (against Christianity) and baseless argument to make since no one organization is the same as the precepts it used to form its organization, much less one interpreting those precepts in as extreme and unorthodox a manner as could be imagined?

On reflection, you're right: it would be. I take it back.

Sure thing, Christianity isn't a better religion than Islam. Both are not religions of peace. Christianity does not have a pretty past either.

There is the separation of church and state for Christian majority countries. No such thing exist for Islamic ones. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Online DarkAngel111

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2014, 03:00:37 AM »
If one were to look and Study the quran, and not pull out verses out of Context they would see that most of what it says is Peaceful. I know I am going to get bombarded and I usually keep my neck out of religious debates, but I felt the need to add some things.

Firstly, Conquest of makkah, happened why? does anyone know?, I doubt it.
Secondly The first time Muslims fought, was in Defence of their Land. At that time a verse was revealed Which strictly said, Do not strike first, But only raise your arms when they have struck.

Sounds like Self Defence to me?.

Thirdly, Conquest of Makkah happened because a Treaty Made between the Quresh (Non-Muslims) And the Muslims was broken. Even then, All those who surrendered were punished with what ? They were asked to teach the Muslim children each Captive was to teach 15 children and then he will be set free. No Property was looted, no house or Woman taken.

Those are the first Accounts, Now lets Move onto the Recent Events.

ISIS Thread is on going I will admit I have little knowledge on the matter. But Taliban threat, I happen to be from the country where it is the greatest. Till 8 months ago Everyone Believed it was an Extremist Group, Using religion to bend people to their wills. Our Scholars had doubts always, Suicide is Forbidden in Islam so how can you be a Suicide Bomber and be a Martyr?.

Then our Armed forced Did a clean sweep operation, and what did we find?, 80% of those *talibans* were not Muslims. the 20% they recruited were wayward boys or those who could easily be Manipulated. While they pretended to be Purists and Religious, they used The most Expensive Perfumes used only Imported Soaps and Shampoos, None were Circumsized(as a muslim should be).

What does that tell you?, Its just a group of People Who have used Islam as a face to cover their own sick intentions. If you want to know how peaceful muslims can be I can give you a example right now, as we speak there are over 40000 Protestors in Islamabad Pakistan, staging a sit in for over 22 days. They have been tear gased, Shot upon, Died. By the government (police). Yet they have only fought back when fired upon by live ammunition. In past 22 days over 800 people have been injured and 28 dead. Yet they have not stormed the Parliament house or the Prime minister house. (Let me assure you they can easily do that with their numbers if they wanted to).

That is what Islam Teaches them. Patience and Peace.

Just because 10 Christians brutalize a Muslim, does not make ME hate all Christians.
Why then do 100 Muslims out of 100 million Muslims are used to put blame on Islam?.

Every religion No matter how peaceful can be used to one's own Intentions. If you twist the word's right. Put a few out of context quotes here and there. Let me tell you that is exactly how the Terrorists recruit as well. So Just when you try to Pick holes in a religion on being Peaceful or Violent, take examples from both sides of the Horizon, Not just the End you want to use. :)

You may direct questions at me, but Expect no real replies as I rarely involve myself in Religious conversations.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2014, 05:36:10 AM »
Sure thing, Christianity isn't a better religion than Islam. Both are not religions of peace. Christianity does not have a pretty past either.

There is the separation of church and state for Christian majority countries. No such thing exist for Islamic ones. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe this is correct.

This is the major difference between Christianity and Islam today. Once Islam gains a good foothold in a country they push to establish the Sharia law in their ghettos, and later all across the country. Islam is not just a religion, which makes up only a portion if it, its also a political system. While Christianity used to do the same in the past, they are now separate from the government. And although they may have a say in politics once in a while they aren't in control. And even if they are in control to some degree they are lenient enough to adhere to secular views as far as I've seen.

In any case, I'd pick Kent Howind over ISIS any day.

Quote
If one were to look and Study the quran, and not pull out verses out of Context they would see that most of what it says is Peaceful. I know I am going to get bombarded and I usually keep my neck out of religious debates, but I felt the need to add some things.

Mutilation and decapitation are not 'peaceful' practices in my books. Self-defense is one thing, cutting limbs and heads off is another. What kind of a God would want that kind of stuff? Yeah, the OT might have similar practices in it but Christians nowadays aren't stoning people to death, or keeping their wives as prisoners as punching bags, except maybe a few isolated cases.

What you say sounds reassuring, DarkAngel111, but for every reassuring testimony there's a dozen that say the opposite. In his book Bruce Bawer describes a ton of cases where Muslims, whether you'd consider them to be true Muslims or not, commit atrocities in Europe as well as back home. Would he have a reason to lie?

Here Bill Warner talks about the history of Islam. I think this is where I picked up the notion that Muslims were the ones to start the conflict. I don't know where he got his information from as he does not cite any sources other than the three books of Islam but we do know that Christianity came first, and the victor writes history.



Online DarkAngel111

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2014, 06:09:25 AM »
The real problem is that you believe We are Against Christianity.

We are not. We Respect All prophets, and Messengers sent Before Muhammad.

So Anyone who says we are trying to *win* from the Christians is wrong.


I believe when you say muslims keep wives as punching bags, I will tell you what you should do, Read the Last Sermon the Prophet gave. In it, he expressly states, that When you marry a woman, treat her with respect, because you have taken her and made a promise to allah, that you will keep her safe. And surely on the day of judgement you will be answerable to him if you mistreat her.


With that said, since you started the topic, How many priests are seen molesting kids?, There aren't many Imam's seen doing the same? If any?.
How many Christians, beat their wives?


Let's not get into the numbers game here, Just because one or even a dozen people do something, it does not mean millions are on the same page.

I have been on E for over a year, Not a single person could tell if I was A christian, or a Muslim.

I condemn what ISIS or Taliban or anyone is doing, I have more christian/non-muslim friends than Muslim friends, I studied in a Catholic School, So how is it fair that I am judged to be from a religion of terrorism?.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2014, 06:41:56 AM »
If I may make a suggestion...

If you want to understand how Islam works and whether it's practices are peaceful or aggressive, try asking a Muslim or reading the scripture in full instead of believing everything that every bigotted journalist prints.

For the most part, Islam is about trying to be the best person you can be, same as Christianity and Judaism. One of the Five Pillars of Islam, for example, is to give a certain percentage of your income to help others.

Sharia law is, believe it or not, based upon the same principals as traditional Christian and Jewish law. The only difference is that most majority Christian or Jewish nations have made the political decision to create different laws. Most Islamic countries practise Sharia law because it is ingrained in the culture and the politics of those nations. Whilst I don't agree with a lot of it, I can certainly understand where a family is coming from if they call for the execution of someone who killed one of their loved ones, for example.

Terrorist organisations such as Taliban, Al Qaeda and ISIS are NOT Muslim. These people take a handful of passages from the Quran or one or more weak Hadiths and twist them to suit their own ends. Islam actually condemns the killing of innocents, and like one of the earlier posts mentioned, suicide is not just a sin, it is ONE OF THE WORST sins you could commit. Any knowledgable Muslim knows this and would never aspire to be honoured by Allah in this way.

No religion is perfect, but every religion has a right to be judged on its attributes in full, and not just on the actions of a minority who use it to justify their own wicked behaviour.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2014, 07:20:41 AM »
Reading the remarks of posters here make me realize how shocking accurate the words of Bruce Bawer are in While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within.  He explains how political correctness, and the desire to accept "the best” (those willing to assimilate and integrate into Western society) among those of other faiths is preventing Europeans from taking an empirical look at how their institutions are being transformed from within, gradually over time by Islam - when taking into account the issue as a whole. 

This is not some kind of “inevitability” that Europe needs to face.  This is the result of a mass immigration policy that is transforming Western values from within. 

Frustration in Europe is at a tipping point, and this is a quote from a Belgian member of E regarding the political situation there, for example (from another thread):

Very true. Here in Belgium, for example, the open borders are making it so we are allowing too many people in than we can even handle. Beyond mere sociological problems and whether or not it is racist or not, Belgium's ridiculous densely populated for its size and the uncontrolled influx (for reasons of drawing in votes by left-wing parties primarily) is starting to seriously tug and tear at the stability. Add to that the same tensions you have anywhere else where assimilation courses are really badly organized and do not help the immigrants find their way at all, and things will degrade from there.

While I'm fairly neutral on a lot of issues, I am not very fond of the EU either. Primarily since it's just become a cash cow for the wealthy and just another set of desirable positions and titles politicians can strive to add to their resume and get some more money for.

The social tensions you mention are only going to get worse, I'm sure. While "everyone equal" is a worthy ideal, "everyone the same" is folly. Humans are marked by their individualism and diversity, denying what makes you, you, is dangerous.

I don’t know if people here actually read the Operation Trojan Horse link I posted earlier.

Prominent Muslim groups in Britain (the seat of Islam in the country, essentially), including the Muslim Council of Britain and the Association of Muslim Schools were attempting to promote Islamic extremism within their schools.  Attempting to compare this to a Christian radical wanting to promote creationism is failing to understand the seriousness of these allegations.

Policies that were in some cases included were:

• Anti-Western rhetoric, particularly anti-US and anti-Israel;
• Segregationism – dividing the world into us and them, with them to include all non-Muslims and other Muslims who disagree;
• Perception of a worldwide conspiracy against Muslims;
• Attempts to impose its views and practices upon others;
• Intolerance of difference, whether the secular, other religions or other Muslims.

Regardless, I am sure we will continue down this path of political correctness, with more continued mass immigration into Europe, and more resulting segregation of ethnic groups within host countries.  The remarks of Bawer are chillingly accurate, and his prediction of Balkanization within Europe is surely only a few decades away.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2014, 07:37:18 AM »
Quote
If I may make a suggestion...

If you want to understand how Islam works and whether it's practices are peaceful or aggressive, try asking a Muslim or reading the scripture in full instead of believing everything that every bigotted journalist prints.

Muslims are not necessarily the best source either. Perhaps the people who criticize Islam aren't Muslims because they actually understand it better and see it for what it is? I've read the Bible, and as Penn Jilette said... the fastest way to becoming an atheist is actually reading the Bible or the Quran, or the Torah yourself. Admittedly I haven't read the Quran in its full entirety yet but glimpses into it certainly left a bad impression upon me. You'd think a holy scripture would have some kind of divine magic to it that would attract you.

To me, a holy scripture should be timeless. Especially in case of Quran, since Muhammad claimed to be the last prophet so Quran remains the last holy word as delivered to Muhammad by Gabriel. What do I mean by timeless? I mean something like love, forgiveness, humility and so forth. But if the scripture carries a lot of baggage and contradictions how can it be divinely inspired?

Just out of curiosity, are there any top scientists out there who are Muslim?

Quote
No religion is perfect, but every religion has a right to be judged on its attributes in full, and not just on the actions of a minority who use it to justify their own wicked behaviour.

You can have the most perfect and immaculate scripture but just one little measly detail can ruin the whole picture. For example, the belief that the path to Heaven only lies through the acceptance of Jesus Christ, and without it, no matter how good or bad of a person you are, you go to Hell regardless. So according to this logic, a successful spokesman for women's and child's rights who donates to charities could die in an accident and be damned to Hell forever. Meanwhile a rapist and murderer who gets diagnosed with cancer accepts Jesus Christ as his savior on his deathbed and goes to Heaven. Or says that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his prophet, same thing. Afaik you become a 'clean slate' so to speak, when you do the shahadah, becoming a Muslim.

Also cutting limbs does not really constitute for a peaceful religion of 'perfection'. What did Muhammad chop people's heads off for? Intimidation? That's not really a peaceful method, that's bullying. You'd also think Allah would have done something by now since so many people are committing crimes in his name, especially against his very own people, whether they're just pretending to be Muslims or they actually believe they're doing the right thing.

Quote
With that said, since you started the topic, How many priests are seen molesting kids?, There aren't many Imam's seen doing the same? If any?.
How many Christians, beat their wives?

Right below this topic is another topic that speaks of the crimes perpetuated in Rotherdam by men who are allegedly affiliated with Islam. And there are countless sources on the internet that portray what kind of abuse and brainwashing Muslims do to their kids. Rumours of Muslim men marrying women below the age of 10. I'm saying rumours here because I dont' currently have any concrete proof or source to link you but it has been going through the media repeatedly. Why are there so many reports of rape going on all over northern Europe? Because allegedly Muslim men are raised and taught that females who do not cover themselves up and aren't Muslim can be raped. Whether there is a proper justification for it in the Quran the Sira or the Hadith, I don't know, but the reports are factual.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2014, 08:45:45 AM »
My only comment on this inevitable to go badly thread is that until I really read what Formless had to say in other places I was developing a really nasty hatred of all things Islam due to current events. This was in spite of my best efforts to not give in to said hatred. Formless changed my mind and for that I am very grateful to him because I tend to be pretty unforgiving once my mind is made up.

On topic I do not think the issues with "militants" or pick your word is so much an Islam thing anymore. I think it is a poverty thing...poverty makes whatever radical idea have appeal and there is a lot of poverty in the mid east. The great wealth that contrasts with the poverty makes it worse.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2014, 09:04:03 AM »
Just out of curiosity, are there any top scientists out there who are Muslim?

There's the guy who developed the linear accelerator, the guy who was the lead architect for Mir, the guy involved in the first moon landings and the Apollo program, and the guy who won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1999

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2014, 09:06:51 AM »
Plus mathematician Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman to win a Fields Medal.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2014, 09:11:43 AM »
The number of Muslim mathematicians is fairly staggering, with a lot of fascinating discoveries, but the accomplishments tend to be a bit on the esoteric side to non-mathematicians. 

(Plus, I know that many people harbor resentment that al-jebr was even invented.)

Offline Caehlim

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2014, 09:16:11 AM »
Just out of curiosity, are there any top scientists out there who are Muslim?

Yes. Abdus Salam (1979 Nobel prize in physics) and Ahmed Zewail (1999 Nobel prize in chemistry) would perhaps be the most notable examples.

Edit: Some people posted with the same information while I was typing.

Online Qt

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2014, 09:23:08 AM »
Reading the remarks of posters here make me realize how shocking accurate the words of Bruce Bawer are in While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within.  He explains how political correctness, and the desire to accept "the best” (those willing to assimilate and integrate into Western society) among those of other faiths is preventing Europeans from taking an empirical look at how their institutions are being transformed from within, gradually over time by Islam - when taking into account the issue as a whole. 

This is not some kind of “inevitability” that Europe needs to face.  This is the result of a mass immigration policy that is transforming Western values from within. 

Frustration in Europe is at a tipping point, and this is a quote from a Belgian member of E regarding the political situation there, for example (from another thread):

I don’t know if people here actually read the Operation Trojan Horse link I posted earlier.

Prominent Muslim groups in Britain (the seat of Islam in the country, essentially), including the Muslim Council of Britain and the Association of Muslim Schools were attempting to promote Islamic extremism within their schools.  Attempting to compare this to a Christian radical wanting to promote creationism is failing to understand the seriousness of these allegations.

Policies that were in some cases included were:

• Anti-Western rhetoric, particularly anti-US and anti-Israel;
• Segregationism – dividing the world into us and them, with them to include all non-Muslims and other Muslims who disagree;
• Perception of a worldwide conspiracy against Muslims;
• Attempts to impose its views and practices upon others;
• Intolerance of difference, whether the secular, other religions or other Muslims.

Regardless, I am sure we will continue down this path of political correctness, with more continued mass immigration into Europe, and more resulting segregation of ethnic groups within host countries.  The remarks of Bawer are chillingly accurate, and his prediction of Balkanization within Europe is surely only a few decades away.

This is the crux of the issue. The western nation's combination of political correctness, fear of offending people and the need to accept diversities is really just helping these extremists with censoring anything that's opposed to Islam.

It's also apparent in how some of the posters here refuse to accept that ISIS(Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) is linked to Islam and actively try to stop those from saying bad things about Islam.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2014, 09:39:40 AM »
It's also apparent in how some of the posters here refuse to accept that ISIS(Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) is linked to Islam and actively try to stop those from saying bad things about Islam.

Or possibly we just subscribe to the idea that human geopolitical interactions are complex and can't necessarily be simplified to one factor.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2014, 09:52:11 AM »
Or possibly we just subscribe to the idea that human geopolitical interactions are complex and can't necessarily be simplified to one factor.

Not sure if this was also directed at me.  If anything, I think the crux of what we were discussing earlier (or at least my perspective on it) was that it is not, in fact, one factor which is playing a role.  I don't even think Islam is the factor alone.  But combine its orthodoxy with mass immigration (from any culture) against the will of the indigenous people, lack of assimilation on their part, and you'll get violent clashes.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2014, 10:05:57 AM »
Not sure if this was also directed at me.

Not especially, although it's an open point if you'd like to discuss it as well.

Quote
If anything, I think the crux of what we were discussing earlier (or at least my perspective on it) was that it is not, in fact, one factor which is playing a role.  I don't even think Islam is the factor alone.  But combine its orthodoxy with mass immigration (from any culture) against the will of the indigenous people, lack of assimilation on their part, and you'll get violent clashes.

I think any time when you have immigration of groups with any different cultural values will potentially drive conflict. Islam really has nothing to do with it, beyond being different from the dominant belief structure of certain nations.

Offline SheoldredTopic starter

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2014, 10:26:50 AM »
Quote
I think any time when you have immigration of groups with any different cultural values will potentially drive conflict. Islam really has nothing to do with it, beyond being different from the dominant belief structure of certain nations.


But its so radically different, that's what causes all the problems, and the European elite are not only perpetrating the crimes committed by Islamists, they seem to be doing all they can to ensure that immigrants remain isolated in their ghettos so that they cannot even possibly begin to adapt to the new culture and secularize.

 Europeans migrating from one country to another within Europe aren't causing any major problems. Nor are American immigrants, or European immigrants in America. No news of the Chinese, as a collective, causing problems either. Nor the Hindus, except maybe some isolated cases here and there. At most you get petty squabbles.

You don't ever hear 'Evil Frenchmen strike again! A woman found bludgeoned to death with dried baguettes for daring to criticise France!' in the news.

It's always the immigrants from the Middle-East that seem to have a problem with understanding Western values and being rather vocal about establishing a strong foothold in their host countries to the point where it slowly starts to replace the local customs. But the problem isn't one-sided as said many times before, many immigrants are mistreated and not given a chance to prove themselves.

Offline Formless

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2014, 12:47:04 PM »
My only comment on this inevitable to go badly thread is that until I really read what Formless had to say in other places I was developing a really nasty hatred of all things Islam due to current events. This was in spite of my best efforts to not give in to said hatred. Formless changed my mind and for that I am very grateful to him because I tend to be pretty unforgiving once my mind is made up.

I am happy to know I could bring the good side of Islam to you , Kind Sir.

There is also a couple of points that Kythia and Valthazar mentioned that I chose to answer in this thread.

Offline Beorning

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2014, 01:19:00 PM »
Okay, I think I'd like to join this discussion, as it touches upon things that are troubling me currently.

I am (at least I think so) a naturally understanding and tolerant person, so I have long opposed the views that some of my acquaintances are espousing: that Islam is dangerous, that it's a threat to European values etc. I've long said the same things that are being said on this thread: that you shouldn't judge Islam by the acts of the extremists, that most of the Muslims aren't a threat to anyone etc. I really, really wanted to believe this. But lately? I really am not sure I can subscribe to that view anymore.

For once, we have the issue of ISIS, which is currently committing horrible atrocities against Christians and other non-Muslim minorities in Iraq. We also still have the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan - who were very oppressive, too. We have Saudi Arabia, which is very conservative country, too. We have situation like that recent one, when a woman was sentenced to death by, supposedly, committing apostasy from Islam. We have women getting stoned to death because of having been raped. We have the issue of female genital mutilation and of honour killings. Not too long ago, a man was decapitated in Britain in broad daylight by two guys yelling "Allah akhbar!"... And these days, in Germany, there actually are "Sharia Police" groups walking around towns, promoting Islamic law...

With all due respect, that quite a lot of scary things happening in relation to one religion...

The example of Westboro Baptist Church was raised... But that's too easy, I think. WBC is an extremely minor group with views that no other Christian group shares. Meanwhile, there are tens of thousands people fighting for ISIS. The Taliban were powerful enough to rule a country. Saudi Arabia *is* a country. And there seem to be other countries... full countries of people... who seem to believe that stoning women for being raped or killing people for changing their faith is okay.

I mean, if there were whole countries that subscribed to WBC's ideas, you surely would say that they represent Christianity to some extent? And that Christianity has some sort of problem?

Also, it was said on this thread that Christianity isn't innocent, either. Right, but... honestly, what's the worst thing Christians do these days? Are there any examples of Christians decapitating people on the streets? Are there Christian countries that sentence rape victims to death? Are there Christian countries where stopping being Christian is punishable by death? More importantly, are there *any* Christians who actually subscribe to such ideas? And are there any organizations out there that are currently trying to build a Christian-only state by force?

I live in one of the most conservative countries in Europe, so I know what conservative Christians tend to do. And, as much as I disagree with them and am annoyed by stuff like the Catholic Church influencing politics, I must say the thing radical Christians do is nowhere near the things that radical Muslims do.

Also, I disagree with the notion that all the awful happenings in relation to Islam happen because of poverty etc. From what I know, there are Europeans fighting for ISIS - are they victims of poverty, too? Also, I've talked to some Polish converts to Islam - people who definitely weren't impoverished. And they *shared* some of values of radical Islam, like their belief that law should be dictated by religion. I'll repeat: these are the ideas of Polish-born people, who grew up in reasonable living conditions and in a democratic society! Ideas these people got because of converting to Islam!

Overall... as I said, I really would like to believe that Islam is harmless. But there's really a lot of bad things happening in Islam's name. So, I really can't help wondering (although I *hate* this possibility) if, maybe, there really *is* something in this religion that promotes violence and tyrannical attitudes?

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2014, 01:28:15 PM »
... honestly, what's the worst thing Christians do these days?

Carry out campaigns of anti-Muslim ethnic cleansing in the Central African Republic  Nigeria, among other countries. My money's on this being a poverty, desperation & resentment based movement, not a religious one. The god they scapegoat for their rampage is beside the point.

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Re: Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2014, 01:37:23 PM »
My money's on this being a poverty, desperation & resentment based movement, not a religious one. The god they scapegoat for their rampage is beside the point.

I agree that this certainly part of the equation for overt violence.  However, even relatively developed Muslim countries such as Malaysia have oppressive legal systems, featuring archaic punishments such as Sharia Caning.  The Malaysian government, as a result of its Islamic influence, has even incorporated caning into its criminal law.

Those founds disseminating non-Islamic materials, or preaching any non-Islamic doctrine for the purpose of conversion may be arrested and imprisoned.  Homosexual acts are still illegal and punishable by caning and imprisonment for men and imprisonment for women.  Non-Muslims found facilitating a Muslim in breaking Sharia law may be arrested and fined.