Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?

[Qt]

Can't quote cos I'm on my phone, but this is aimed at QTs last point. That is precisely what Formless has been saying. Deny them the umbrella and legitimacy of being called Muslims

You have no more authority to deny them being called Muslims than they have authority to call themselves Muslims. In fact since they currently are grabbing a few more news headlines than these "Real Muslims," I'd say they'd have a bigger impact on shaping people's views. So at the end of the day, what you propose does very little.

[Kythia]

You seem to be arguing with yourself? Deny them the guise of operating under Islam in one post, say people have no authority to do that in the next. Could you restate what you meant please.

[Oniya]

It still surprises me how people could some how say that the "Islamic State of Iraq and Syria" Organization... is not Islam.

The same reason that I can say that the Westboro 'Baptist' Church bears little resemblance to actual Baptists, never mind a 'Church'.

They have chosen a name.  They could call themselves the Ministry of Peace, the Ministry of Truth, or the Ministry of Love for all I care.  It is up to us to make a distinction between the self-serving name and the fact that their actions are counter to that name.

[Ephiral]

And they do this because they believe that it's their Christian duty to kill non-believers? I don't think so.

I'll just leave this here.

This is the point I've been trying to make: None of the accusations levelled at Islam are remotely unique to Islam. So when people start singling out Islam in particular, I start wondering what's really motivating them.

[Retribution]

While I have already admitted I have a more charitable view of Islam these days the argument I keep hearing here in essence is "other religions have, or do commit atrocities." Quite frankly I find that type of argument to be bullshit. Just because someone commits murder does not make it alright for someone else to commit murder.

Weather it is poverty induced or whatever there are a lot of very violent Muslims. I am no longer ready to condemn the entire faith for that, but essentially saying it is okay because there are those in other religions who are violent is something that is wrong on more levels than I can adequately express.

[Oniya]

While I have already admitted I have a more charitable view of Islam these days the argument I keep hearing here in essence is "other religions have, or do commit atrocities." Quite frankly I find that type of argument to be bullshit. Just because someone commits murder does not make it alright for someone else to commit murder.

No.  It means that both of those individuals are in the wrong, and should not be lumped together with the decent human beings who don't commit murder, but happen to share some other broad characteristic with the murderers.

[DarkAngel111]

While I have already admitted I have a more charitable view of Islam these days the argument I keep hearing here in essence is "other religions have, or do commit atrocities." Quite frankly I find that type of argument to be bullshit. Just because someone commits murder does not make it alright for someone else to commit murder.

I in particular quoted acts of violence by other religions specifically due to this. The problem I found in this thread was that people seemed to be of the view that Islam is the base of corruption. And since its not perfect (thus not being a word of god). I ask you this, who did they adopt this religion from?

Previous religions?, That means that is what all religions did.

For someone or anyone who thinks that islam is as bad as they have been made to believe I suggest you listen to Dr. Zakir Naik. The man is a scholar and has studied all religions, He openly engages in debate with religious leaders of other faiths. Maybe this will shed some light on your queries :)

As it was said before, try listening to things on both ends before you make up your mind about any religion :)

[Retribution]

I will direct this with names as I find quotes tiresome when they get too thick.

Oniya -> That is what I am really hoping is implied and I am all on board with that point of view.

DarkAngel111 -> Uh this type of argument is what is making me do a double take. As I said I am not condemning all of Islam, but what you sure as heck sound like you are saying to me is "Islam learned violence from other religions so it is alright." I am all on board as I said with statements such as the one Oniya made, but when I read things like you posted I am hearing a justification for lack of a better word and I am not big on justifications.

In more broad terms, I think anyone who watches the news can see the problems weather they be ISIS or the Taliban what have you. I cannot say the problems are caused by Islam, in fact I tend to think there are social economic issues at play. But Islam has become wrapped up in it and to deny that is kind of denying the obvious in my opinion.

[Caehlim]

but essentially saying it is okay because there are those in other religions who are violent is something that is wrong on more levels than I can adequately express.

If you see someone expressing an opinion that strikes you as being unimaginably wrong and unethical, it's often worth considering whether it's something they're actually saying or not. While there are some heartless and ruthless people out there, most people are fundamentally decent. It's usually worth giving people the benefit of the doubt and looking back over what they said, then considering whether perhaps they're maybe making a different point than the way you originally read it.

Just to clarify, I'm not in any way saying that therefore Christianity is bad. I'm just making clear that identifying bad behaviour from certain members of a group and generalizing it to the group at large carries the risk of unfair prejudice.

[Retribution]

Caehlim -> All on board with that and I noted your statement that you quoted. But I read, and re-read others (am not going to point fingers) and my thoughts were along the lines of "surely you are not saying....."

[Caehlim]

Ah, I didn't realize you'd seen it. Anyway it's not always the case, it's just my philosophy that it's easier to believe the best in people. Sometimes you're wrong, but it just seems an easier way to live. I guess that's the same rationale I'm using in the thread here.

I'm not the biggest fan of Islam or most any other religion out there. Most holy books have some pretty scary stuff in them. I just get worried when you start hearing threads like this which seem to imply that all X are evil. Islam isn't really a big thing here in Australia but I do know a few really nice kind Muslims over at my university and I just worry that this kind of discussion is the lead in to potential hatred and prejudice against an entire group of people, many of whom are wonderful people.

[Sheoldred]

As it was said before, try listening to things on both ends before you make up your mind about any religion :)

I have listened to experts on both sides. I've watched debates on YT such as this and this.

Call me crazy but Ayaan Hirsi Ali destroys her opponents in debates every time. Every time.

There's also conflicting stories regarding Muhammad. Most apologists say he was a very peaceful man who was the victim of persecution by Jews and Christians, so he finally acted out of self-defense and remained graceful in his justice that he inflicted upon them. I bet those heads on pikes looked rather graceful indeed.

Then there's stories that claim him to be a bloodthirsty warlord and a pedophile(usually Aisha is mentioned in this case) who could only get his way once he started using war and deceit. He ambushed caravans of those he promised not to touch, murdered, and even raped tc. And many of his men did the same, following his example. Because war booty is war booty, and you can do with it whatever you want.

We can be certain in only one thing, Quran was written by a Muslim. I read somewhere that it was actually written AFTER Muhammad passed away since Muhammad was allegedly illiterate, and then others say that it was written by Muhammad, despite him being illiterate. Well, maybe he dictated it while one of his Muslim friends wrote it. I don't know. But my point here is that since it was written by Muhammad or another Muslim, or at least a Muslim symphathiser, of course it will try to portray Muhammad and Allah in the best light possible... for that given time. But does it really tell us the whole story? Was Muhammad really the one persecuted or was he the one that got so mad at Jews for not accepting him as a new prophet among a line of Jewish prophets, that he decided to kill them all?



But let's assume there's an equal amount of opponents and supporters among the experts on whether Islam is a religion of peace or not, and both come up with sound arguments and we reach a stalemate. What do?

Well, you could look at the Quran yourself and again, BEHEADING and finger-chopping stares right in your face. Nobody does such stuff in 'self-defense'. That's the God of the Old Testament rearing his ugly head again, with his immorally vengeful ways. For a book of self-defense it still has awfully many lines about war and how to treat your enemy. There's literally an obsession with the Jihad in the Quran. Like I've said before if the two 'Qurans' were separated, we wouldnt' be having so many debates. One Quran for the peaceful Muslims that speaks of the religion, and one Quran where he kills and beheads Jews for being infidels as another Quran, so we could study them separately.

Then another thing we could do is look at what is happening today. Muslims are the ones causing most problems, not Christians, nor Hindus.

I in particular quoted acts of violence by other religions specifically due to this. The problem I found in this thread was that people seemed to be of the view that Islam is the base of corruption. And since its not perfect (thus not being a word of god). I ask you this, who did they adopt this religion from?

It's a religion of a self-proclaimed prophet who has the audacity to tell Christians their Jesus was not the Son of God but only a prophet whose message is not as powerful as his, and the audacity to tell the Jews that he is their new and last prophet and they should convert to Islam instead of following their old ways or else... He also brought in polygamy which did not exist in either Judaism or Christianity. Yeah, he tells you to respect a woman but at the same time I remember some verses in the Quran seem to imply women are no more than prized pets.

Of course this is mostly my personal view. I'm not trying to attack anyone specifically here, just stating my opinion after what I've seen, read and heard about Islam. I realise many Muslims were raised believing Muhammad was the perfect man and he never really committed any horrible crimes, and merely acted out of self-defense. But I'd like more clarity.

Islam isn't really a big thing here in Australia

Except this guy.

Anyway, I'll check out Dr Zakir Naik, as darkangel suggested. See what he has to say.

[Caehlim]

Except this guy.

Oh there are some controversial figures and events certainly, but they're still only 2.2% of the population. It's quite a small group. We have more Buddhists here than we do Muslims.

[Sheoldred]

Oh, another point I'd like to add that perhaps somebody more affiliated with Islam could answer. Perhaps my last post could be seen as a bit hateful but regardless, I have this one question...


Even if we assume that Muhammad only acted out of self-defense, how come his religion only started spreading once he started having wars? Regardless of his motives, his religion was still spread by the sword, in the end, because all sources, even ones that point at Muhammad being the good guy, seem to state that he didn't have a whole lot of followers when he was trying to get them through peaceful means. Then come the wars and bam, Islam spreads at an alarming rate. What do you make of this?

[DarkAngel111]

Even if we assume that Muhammad only acted out of self-defense, how come his religion only started spreading once he started having wars? Regardless of his motives, his religion was still spread by the sword, in the end, because all sources, even ones that point at Muhammad being the good guy, seem to state that he didn't have a whole lot of followers when he was trying to get them through peaceful means. Then come the wars and bam, Islam spreads at an alarming rate. What do you make of this?

You need to read the history again,
Madina as it is now also known was the first one to adopt Islam. And they did that, when the Muhammad was Hiding in the hills from the Quresh who were out setting bounties on him. The muslims were maybe in double figures then. Had not even a single sword on them, and they were taken in by the people of Madinah and they adopted the religion. WITHOUT A SWORD.

Let me tell you where swords came out,

When Quresh realised a city where most of their trade routes went through, was now a muslim city they would take revenge and loot their caravans. (Which they did not). They decided to attack Madinah, and that was when First war was fought.

[Beorning]

This is the point I've been trying to make: None of the accusations levelled at Islam are remotely unique to Islam. So when people start singling out Islam in particular, I start wondering what's really motivating them.

Okay, I *really* take issue with what you're saying here, Ephiral. It actually borders on sneaky personal attack. "What's really motivating them"? Please...

I repeat: only ten years ago, I was firmly in the same camp as you. I kept saying the same things you say! But over the years, I kept watching the news and... really, I just can't help wondering lately. We've had the Taliban, we have ISIS, we have apostates being executed for leaving Islam, we have women stoned for being rape victims, we have the educational issues raised by Valthazar, now we have "Sharia Police" in Germany... I mean, look at all of this together. Is there really no point we'd be allowed to start wondering whether, maybe, there is some sort of problem within Islam itself?

And yes, sure, other religions aren't free from the "ugly side". But the problem is, Islam seems to have a really *big* ugly side. You keep mentioning Westboro Baptist Church, people - but let's imagine that there is a whole army conquering lands and executing people in the name of WBC... At the same time, many countries subscribe to WBC-style laws... and in another countries, there would be attempts to introduce WBC ideas into schools etc. Imagine all this happening at the same time. Would you really still be saying that WBC isn't a problem? And would it be so utterly nonsensical to wonder if, maybe, there's something wrong within Christianity itself, as WBC-like ideas get this kind of recognition among Christians?

[Kythia]

but let's imagine that there is a whole army conquering lands and executing people in the name of WBC...

They're called The Lord's Resistance Army (amongst other examples)

At the same time, many countries subscribe to WBC-style laws

See the list of Christian countries with Blasphemy laws then we'll move on to abortion legislation.

... and in another countries, there would be attempts to introduce WBC ideas into schools etc.

That would certainly be a controversy for someone to teach, yes.

Imagine all this happening at the same time. Would you really still be saying that WBC isn't a problem? And would it be so utterly nonsensical to wonder if, maybe, there's something wrong within Christianity itself, as WBC-like ideas get this kind of recognition among Christians?

Yup

[Beorning]

They're called The Lord's Resistance Army (amongst other examples)

And do they have international support? ISIS seems to have.

See the list of Christian countries with Blasphemy laws then we'll move on to abortion legislation.

I actually live in a country with very conservative abortion legislation, as well as with blasphemy laws. 

Still... guys, Christian blasphemy laws involve what, fines? And how often do they actually see any use? Also, is there any Christian country with a law against *quitting Christianity*? With the penalty being death?

And please, let's not compare even harsh abortion laws to stoning rape victims!

[Beorning]

And to add something: I'd really like to make it clear that I don't want to offend or make sad by what I say... It's just that I'm genuinely concerned about what happens in relation to Islam around the world, especially in Europe. Seriously, there's "Sharia Police" now! Is it strange that I'm scared by that..?

[Kythia]

Seriously, there's "Sharia Police" now! Is it strange that I'm scared by that..?

Not strange no.  That's not the word.  The east has been demonised by Europe for a long time and it's our view of "the other" to a huge extent.  Particularly Europe here, I think there's a strong argument to be made that what the black gangbanger is to the US the swarthy Muslim is to us.  It's controversial but you should read Said's "Orientalism".  Still worth reading like forty years on, just...I dunno.  Be aware that not everything is fully accepted.

But it is wrong.  Look at these Shariah Police you object to.  It's a group of self-chosen people who patrol a community enforcing the rules of that community (rules which aren't democratically mandated nor are they necessarily compatible with the legal code of the country) doling out punishments and sanctions to those who break them.  No, sorry, wait a second - that's the staff here on E. 

People whine on about "imposing Sharia law" and it's wrong.  The law is conflict resolution, and there's no meaningful difference to you and I agreeing that the staff here on E can mediate our dispute.  So long as the community agrees that Sharia is valid, then Sharia is valid.  Just like if you had a dispute with your employer (grats again on the new job, BTW) and went to arbitration - you have other routes but if you agree on that one then you're laughing. 

It certainly doesn't affect anyone outside the community.

Now, there could be an argument that people in the community are forced into accepting Sharia when they would prefer another method of conflict resolution - civil law, getting the E staff involved, ritual combat to the death, whatever.  Certainly there could.  First, once again that affects you precisely not at all, you have no reason to be "scared".  Second, that applies to everything, people get forced into mediation when they'd prefer court, get forced into divorce when they'd prefer relationship counselling, etc etc etc.  Finally, we have mechanisms for addressing that.  Those mechanisms aren't perfect but that doesn't remove them, nor does it mean they're worthless.  There are certainly issues specific to ethnic communities - and as I've mentioned elsewhere half my family are of Pakistani descent and I speak Urdu at home - but "native" is an ethnic community and there are problems endemic to them as well.

[Beorning]

Kythia, you seem to be totally mistaken as to what "Sharia Police" was doing. It's not a "community police" trying to police Muslim communities - these guys were approaching *non-Muslims*. They did stuff like, say, walking into bars and trying to convince bar owners that alcohol is against Islam... bar owners who aren't even Muslim!

[Kythia]

And those bars closed down? Or did they simply point out there was no jurisdiction here then carry on with their lives?

[Avis habilis]

Kythia, you seem to be totally mistaken as to what "Sharia Police" was doing. It's not a "community police" trying to police Muslim communities - these guys were approaching *non-Muslims*. They did stuff like, say, walking into bars and trying to convince bar owners that alcohol is against Islam... bar owners who aren't even Muslim!

You mean the 30 or so self-proclaimed morality police who were denounced by the Central Council of Muslims in Germany? Those guys?

Not terribly worrisome.

[DarkAngel111]

At the risk of sounding like a complete Lunatic,

There has been in more than one instance a planned propaganda against Islam, In many cases it was found these were indeed other powers using the name *Islam* to degrade the religion as a whole.

You say is it justified that there is bloodshed in the past because others did it? I say No its not.

But look at it here, in this instance, how many muslims have been killed in the past 15 years? thousands?, Most assuredly MORE. How many non muslims have been killed by those insurgents??.

Do not name a topic *is Islam a religion of peace* name it Is ISIS justified ?. I will have no problem Siding with you.

That is all I will say on this topic.

[Beorning]

And those bars closed down? Or did they simply point out there was no jurisdiction here then carry on with their lives?

Okay, so... if there were guys patrolling streets in the name of conservative Christianity, would you be unconcerned, too?

Also, what if the "Sharia Police" turn to violence?

You mean the 30 or so self-proclaimed morality police who were denounced by the Central Council of Muslims in Germany? Those guys?

Not terribly worrisome.

Sorry, it is worrisome to me.

And note that I'm wary of Christian attempts of doing similar stuff. Remember the "Christians vs. yoga" thread?

That is all I will say on this topic.

And I hoped you would comment on the stoning of women and the executing of apostates... I genuinely would like to know what an average Muslim thinks on those issues.