Is Islam Really a Religion of Peace?

[Avis habilis]

Also, what if the "Sharia Police" turn to violence?

So the real reason to be afraid of them is an activity they haven't engaged in yet.

[Beorning]

Considering that, according to my German acquintances, Muslim men are already harrassing non-veiled women in Germany...

Yes, the "Sharia Police" didn't do anything violent yet. Still, is it totally crazy to fear trouble and try anticipating it?

[Valthazar]

A couple of decades ago, people were mocked for suggesting that Shariah patrols would soon exist in parts of Europe.  Now that they do exist, people seem to be justifying it as not a big deal.

[Sheoldred]

Okay, I *really* take issue with what you're saying here, Ephiral. It actually borders on sneaky personal attack. "What's really motivating them"? Please...

I repeat: only ten years ago, I was firmly in the same camp as you. I kept saying the same things you say! But over the years, I kept watching the news and... really, I just can't help wondering lately. We've had the Taliban, we have ISIS, we have apostates being executed for leaving Islam, we have women stoned for being rape victims, we have the educational issues raised by Valthazar, now we have "Sharia Police" in Germany... I mean, look at all of this together. Is there really no point we'd be allowed to start wondering whether, maybe, there is some sort of problem within Islam itself?

And yes, sure, other religions aren't free from the "ugly side". But the problem is, Islam seems to have a really *big* ugly side. You keep mentioning Westboro Baptist Church, people - but let's imagine that there is a whole army conquering lands and executing people in the name of WBC... At the same time, many countries subscribe to WBC-style laws... and in another countries, there would be attempts to introduce WBC ideas into schools etc. Imagine all this happening at the same time. Would you really still be saying that WBC isn't a problem? And would it be so utterly nonsensical to wonder if, maybe, there's something wrong within Christianity itself, as WBC-like ideas get this kind of recognition among Christians?

I'll echo this sentiment. This is why I'm questioning Islam.

I get told all the time that I don't know the whole story, the history, or the full extent of the Quran. I get told all the time that it actually bears a peaceful message. And I'd like to believe that but the time I've spent studying it so far have painted a rather negative image of it in my head. To me, the thing is filled with hatred. Self-defense, or no.

But do I really have to spend 10 years of my life studying the Quran in order to understand it? Why do some people that do exactly that, starting from childhood, yet still end up as radical Muslims who cheer whenever some captured Brit or American gets beheaded on a video tape?

If a holy text is so easy to misinterpret then its simply a faulty text in my eyes. IT doesn't even matter if the message is ultimately peaceful(which I think it isnt' but that's beside the point). If the holy scripture cannot get its peaceful message across to everyone then it simply needs a reform. Because clearly an alarming number of Muslims are subscribing to the more extreme forms of Islam these days, whether they take part in committing crimes or simply stand aside, silently, and enable their more zealous-minded brothers do the work.

[DarkAngel111]

And I hoped you would comment on the stoning of women and the executing of apostates... I genuinely would like to know what an average Muslim thinks on those issues.

And I was hoping you would tell me how its us who are more cruel than those that have killed us for centuries in the name of saving their traditions.

I was really hoping that you would also level with me on How many Muslims have been Massacared in india.
How Women who practice Hijab are sent to jail in France.
How When a Man running an Honest is targeted, JUST for being a muslim?.

So if he fights back he is a extremist, but if you kill him thinking HE IS A TERRORIST, that is fair?.

Don't go about lecturing me on Stoning of women, Let me tell you why Islam has promoted Polygamy because no one seems to get that.

It says
"give Equal rights to your wives no matter what."

Let me tell you why it does that,
on an average take on a stat any stat, there are more Women in the world and less males. What happens if you let that stat continue. And Each man marries a woman.
What happens to those who remain?

Now people will go on about how I am not for Feminine right i know but Imagine that,
Not all of those who are left want to spend their lives alone?, they may resort to any number of vices, which may include seducing married men, in turn causing rifts.

Now Lets Move to the Stoning of Women topic,

Like everywhere else What is being done today is being done to defame the religion itself.

The concept of stoning women to death came for those who were promoting sex out of marriage. they were in turn promoting a culture that would lead to disease and Further rifts. It was mainly done for Prostitution. I condemn if they stone a rape victim, Heck I will put them behind bars Myself!.

When you talk about the Time when Islam was spread by sword you should also mention, that in those states, Over the course of years by what we call Zaka't and is more commonly known as Charity which is obligatory on every well to do Muslim to give, A time came, when the community had flourished So much, that it was hard to find a person who would even Accept charity because everyone was Well to do. Why is it that you never Mention that?.


Oh and in case you forget, since you so did such a personal attack on why I didn't answer, I still want your Answer, How many Muslims have been killed in the name of *saving our nation, our way of life*, and how many have they killed?.

these So called Talibans and ISIS, are not muslims, they are holding a banner and making it sound like islam. I am a very personal observer of what they did, and let me tell you, In Pakistan alone Talibans killed 84000 Muslims. because we DONOT ACCEPT THEM AS MUSLIMS.

Oh and on that note, the US government alone killed over 3000 people. That is a Conservative Number. they claim they killed Talibans, But I personally know civillian populations wiped clean by the drone strikes. And for some reason despite the *success* of drone strikes the Terrorist attacks only increased?. Why then when the Pakistan army started an operation and did what US drones couldn't do in years they did in a matter of Months?. The operation is still underway 80% completion and there has not been a single terrorist bombing since it began.

I would say Innocents were being killed in the name of *protecting US interests*


These Civillians are not Terrorists or Taliban, they are Bloody civilians!, Who are dieing in Numbers Greater than Any Christian or Non muslims, If we pick up arms to protect ourselves we are Taliban, no matter what.


So the Point here is, If you have already made up your Mind about the Religion and People, What is the Point on Arguing ?

[Sheoldred]

I would say Innocents were being killed in the name of *protecting US interests*

Oh, they certainly have... and soldiers have been ordered to do many horrible things, especially based on stories and confessions by many veterans. There's countless speeches they give on YT about the atrocities they or their comrades committed. But that's a whole different issue that deserves its own topic, honestly.

[DarkAngel111]

No it does Not need a new Topic!

You say we don't do it in self defense,

So when it comes to those who are cleaning up *the Muslim mess* it can be brushed aside by people While you say out so openly that islam is not a religion of peace.


But tell me this do you honestly expect any Self respecting person to Sit at home while his sisters and mothers are being raped and gang raped by forces of a foreign nation?,

You say you don't accept Shariah Police, but was this not exactly what the US soldiers were doing in Afghanistan?, harrassing Veiled women and raping them?, Why should THEY accept it when you don't?

Are we Sons of a different god than yours?

[Sheoldred]

We have to address one issue at a time. I created the topic to discuss Islam specifically, as well as the people that allegedly represent it, whether its the peaceful Sunni Muslims or the violent Jihadists. You can discuss the revolting crimes of US soldiers, sure, but it would need another topic. What would it achieve here? You'd only find justifications for the perpetrators affiliated with Islam( ex. extremists do what they do bcause they US started first), as well as enable victim mentality.

[Oniya]

Please remember that the civility rule applies here in PROC as well as in the rest of Elliquiy.  As this area is for discussing controversial topics, be aware of what you post and how it is phrased so that it is less likely to seem confrontational.

[DarkAngel111]

For those of you of have quoted. Or I should say Quoted Out of context

"behead the unbelievers and strike them from their finger tips"


Let me tell you what it goes on to say. in verse 8:19
If you [disbelievers] seek the victory - the defeat has come to you. And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.

Do you see what it says there?,
It says if I were to quote the whole chapter of it you will probably get lost reading it, but it was revealed on the moment of Badr when the Muslims were attacked. and they had to pick up arms against 3000 strong men, while they were only 300 and only half of them armed. It was then revealed that if they were to go back and not attack you, you shall do the same.

I think that would qualify as self defense.

[Shjade]

Considering that, according to my German acquintances, Muslim men are already harrassing non-veiled women in Germany...

Yes, the "Sharia Police" didn't do anything violent yet. Still, is it totally crazy to fear trouble and try anticipating it?

This post exemplifies the issue with much of this thread: the question is about Islam, the religion, yet most of the concerns being raised and consequently held up as indicators that the religion itself isn't peaceful are best summed as "human beings can really suck."

Is it crazy to fear the idea of extremists acting out and becoming violent? Of course not, that's totally reasonable. Does that mean the religion they claim to be acting on behalf of is really a religion that condones their actions in majority? No.

Hate crimes are hate crimes. Whether it's neo-nazis beating (insert minority group here), Sharia police harassing people for not living their lives according to their chosen set of rules or Christians murdering homosexuals and doctors who perform abortions, these are people proving that people can be terrible to each other. In the case of religious extremists, their chosen doctrine is simply what was used to shape their violence, not the cause of it. If they didn't have this one to claim then they'd find another. It's the way such people are, not a reflection of their chosen religion.

There's a reason they're called "extremists." The reason is they're extreme. Meaning not representative of the whole, or even the core. To claim otherwise generally indicates either ignorance of the subject or a prejudicial view against it, meaning it's what the person wants to believe is true about this religion, regardless of whether or not it is. (This is likely what was meant by questioning "what's really motivating them," Beorning. It seems less and less like a thread interested in discussing Islam and more and more like an attempt at fear-mongering.)

[DarkAngel111]

We have to address one issue at a time. I created the topic to discuss Islam specifically, as well as the people that allegedly represent it, whether its the peaceful Sunni Muslims or the violent Jihadists. You can discuss the revolting crimes of US soldiers, sure, but it would need another topic. What would it achieve here? You'd only find justifications for the perpetrators affiliated with Islam( ex. extremists do what they do bcause they US started first), as well as enable victim mentality.

I do believe that the birth of Talibans was a product of US in the first place?,

And I do believe that before Talibans you have little to no cause for putting up a banner and saying Islam was carrying out Heinous acts in the Current times?.

Why then Is Us Soldiers doing what they did a different topic?,

A Mass Genocide of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan is a different topic in a topic where we are discussing Why they picked up arms in the first place?.

I am not saying they are Right, but you see when Someone comes into your home and brutalizes you, you are more than hungry for revenge. Now if you are too small to do anything about it, (like hitler was) you recruit a like minded army and fight, But when there is no planning to this army those with Other motives join in, and the Original Purpose of that fight is lost, It is twisted and turned.

What did Afghanistan ever do when Russians Attacked them? Nothing, yet they were killed by the millions. Somehow in your Eyes that is not terrorism because a country does it, Its *war in terror*. It needs to be discussed right here.

You talk about ISIS, when the whole Foundation for ISIS was set by Talibans, who were funded by American Government to fight for their rights, Now simply because you want to take over, their rights are no longer important.


Oh and I should tell you, Most of the people who did this were Christians and Jews.

You reap what you sow.

that is what this is.

[Sheoldred]

It's going to get infinitely more complicated if we get into such heavy politics that target parties that supposedly influenced the extremists to do what they're doing.

[consortium11]

You talk about ISIS, when the whole Foundation for ISIS was set by Talibans

Not really.

The Islamic State grew out of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad which was formed largely to overthrow the Kingdom of Jordan as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi considered it to be un-Islamic. During their time operating in Iraq during the mid-to-late 2000's (after changing their name to Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafiday, more commonly known as Al-Qaeda in Iraq) they differed from other insurgent groups because they actively targeted Shias and were at least as interested in killing and forcing out what they saw as "religious traitors" as they were in facing the coalition. With the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and having their power broken in Iraq they largely faded away until Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (replacing al-Zarqawi as leader of the group) took over; attacks on civilians stepped up and they then moved into the Syrian Civil War, first as the al-Nusra Front and then as ISI.

[Retribution]

I do believe that the birth of Talibans was a product of US in the first place?,

And I beg to differ with this. The Taliban came to power following the failed Soviet invasion. In fact Bin Laden got his start fighting the Soviets. The end result was the Soviet invasion destabilized the entire country and gave direct rise to much of the unrest. In fact the US was directly supporting many groups that opposed the Soviets including Bin Laden's. All part and parcel of the old cold war. I have no real clue why the Soviets wanted to invade in the first place, but it was one of the many things that lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Following their departure the Taliban came to power.

[Sheoldred]

One thing Bruce Bawer points out in his book is how the elite of Europe, and possibly the rest of the world too, are antagonizing the US... while trivializing all the good stuff that the US has done.

[Beorning]

I really didn't want to offend you, DarkAngel 

And I was hoping you would tell me how its us who are more cruel than those that have killed us for centuries in the name of saving their traditions.

If Muslim people were killed by people of other faiths, then it was, of course, utterly evil. I will be the first person who'd tell that, for once, the crusades were an awful thing (my people didn't take part in them, BTW).

The problem is that, these day, it's Muslims who seem to do the most cruel things. Sorry, but it really seems this way...

I was really hoping that you would also level with me on How many Muslims have been Massacared in india.

Of course I can level with you on that!

How Women who practice Hijab are sent to jail in France.

That's... actually a more complicated issue. But for the record, I oppose that.

How When a Man running an Honest is targeted, JUST for being a muslim?.

What do you mean by that? I don't know that incident.

Don't go about lecturing me on Stoning of women, Let me tell you why Islam has promoted Polygamy because no one seems to get that.

Actually, I don't have that much problem with polygamy.

Now Lets Move to the Stoning of Women topic,

Like everywhere else What is being done today is being done to defame the religion itself.

The concept of stoning women to death came for those who were promoting sex out of marriage. they were in turn promoting a culture that would lead to disease and Further rifts. It was mainly done for Prostitution. I condemn if they stone a rape victim, Heck I will put them behind bars Myself!.

But stoning of prostitutes is wrong, too. Heck, killing anyone just because of out-of-marriage sex is wrong.

When you talk about the Time when Islam was spread by sword you should also mention, that in those states, Over the course of years by what we call Zaka't and is more commonly known as Charity which is obligatory on every well to do Muslim to give, A time came, when the community had flourished So much, that it was hard to find a person who would even Accept charity because everyone was Well to do. Why is it that you never Mention that?.

Personally, I believe Muslim charity to be a very noble thing.

Oh and in case you forget, since you so did such a personal attack on why I didn't answer, I still want your Answer, How many Muslims have been killed in the name of *saving our nation, our way of life*, and how many have they killed?.

I... didn't want to *attack* you. If that came out that way, I'm sorry.

As to your question: I am not an American. And I condemn American attack on Iraq.

So the Point here is, If you have already made up your Mind about the Religion and People, What is the Point on Arguing ?

The thing is, I *have not* made up my mind...

[consortium11]

I should also note that the Taliban was largely a product of Pakistan; the Taliban was basically a non-factor during the Soviet invasion when the US was pouring money into rebel groups. The Taliban was formed out of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, a fundamentalist political block in Pakistan. When the Taliban first formed they numbered a few hundred... it was when 15,000 students from Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam schools poured into the country that they gained any strength. Through their rise to power in the mid-to-late 90's they were supported almost entirely by Pakistan who wished to install a regime friendly to them.

[Beorning]

This post exemplifies the issue with much of this thread: the question is about Islam, the religion, yet most of the concerns being raised and consequently held up as indicators that the religion itself isn't peaceful are best summed as "human beings can really suck."

Is it crazy to fear the idea of extremists acting out and becoming violent? Of course not, that's totally reasonable. Does that mean the religion they claim to be acting on behalf of is really a religion that condones their actions in majority? No.

Hate crimes are hate crimes. Whether it's neo-nazis beating (insert minority group here), Sharia police harassing people for not living their lives according to their chosen set of rules or Christians murdering homosexuals and doctors who perform abortions, these are people proving that people can be terrible to each other. In the case of religious extremists, their chosen doctrine is simply what was used to shape their violence, not the cause of it. If they didn't have this one to claim then they'd find another. It's the way such people are, not a reflection of their chosen religion.

I really can't agree with that.

What you're saying is that some people are, somehow, born with a desire for violence and they just latch onto this or that idea to justify it. Sorry, but no! This kind of explanation effectively robs all ideologies and belief systems of their value and power of influence. According to this approach, a saint is a saint because he's "naturally saintly". A violent fanatic is violent by birth and not by any kind of influence. We'll all born with some kind of attitude and any beliefs we subscribe to are just justifications for our instinctual choices.

Sorry, no! It doesn't work like that. There is such a thing like socialization and people being *shaped* by existant belief systems. A normal person can be turned to some violent goal by the means of ideology. Similarly, religion is a factor that can have a genuine influence on how people behave. It's *not* all just rationalizations.

I do believe that religion (among other things) can genuinely push people to make good or bad choices. So, when you see a religious fanatic, it's not enough just to shrug and say "Oh, he was born this way, religion has nothing to do with his behaviour". No, we *have* to ask ourselves: is there something in the religion that causes this man's extremism? Did he encounter a peaceful doctrine and warped it all by himself - or was there something in the doctrine itself that sow the seeds of the extremism?

To use a fictional example: in the Dumbing Of Age webcomic, there's the character of Joyce, a young woman who tends to say... ignorant and offensive things. Does she do it, because she's a jerk by the virtue of birth? No, she does that, because she grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family and she was brought up to believe these things. She's not using Christianity to justify her jerkiness - she genuinely believes things that make her occassionally act as a jerk.

Similarly, real-life fundamentalists genuinely believe things they claim to believe. They honestly believe that these things are good. And it's a valid question to ask: how come they got these kinds of ideas?

Another example: it's often discussed if the Catholic Church is partially responsible for the AIDS pandemic in Africa. Why? Because the CC's sexual ethics condemn using condoms. There are people that point out that these kind of outdated sexual ethics indirectly make it difficult to stop AIDS. It's a good idea of a bad idea of one religion causing real-life harm.

Now, what I'm saying is... if it's okay to discuss if, maybe, some part of Catholic teaching cause trouble in stopping AIDS, then why would it be wrong to ask a question if, maybe, there are some parts of Islamic teaching that make it harder for Muslims to accept state-and-church separation? Or cause other problems discussed at this thread?

Let me reiterate: I am not saying that there *are* such parts in Islamic teaching for sure. I honestly don't know. That's why I'd like to discuss these matters!

And please, stop trying to pigeonhole me as an Islam hater, because I'm really not that.

[Shjade]

What you're saying is that some people are, somehow, born with a desire for violence and they just latch onto this or that idea to justify it.

To use a fictional example: in the Dumbing Of Age webcomic, there's the character of Joyce, a young woman who tends to say... ignorant and offensive things. Does she do it, because she's a jerk by the virtue of birth? No, she does that, because she grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family and she was brought up to believe these things. She's not using Christianity to justify her jerkiness - she genuinely believes things that make her occassionally act as a jerk.

No, what I'm saying is similar to what you're saying: it's not the religion in question that determines the person's actions, it's how they were raised. It's not being a Christian, just that trait on its own, that prompts Joyce to act in an unfriendly manner, it's the way she was raised in that faith, what she was taught to think is inappropriate or correct and how she's supposed to behave accordingly. This reflects more on the way she was raised than the specific faith drawn upon. The character could have been similarly shaped by dismissive, exclusive atheist parents. It's how the concepts are used that has the greater impact there and reflects on the people using them more than the concepts themselves.

I'm not trying to pigeonhole you as anything. My description applied to the thread as a whole and the direction it seems to be taking.

[Caehlim]

My personal experience has always been that it's easier to argue with the specific unpleasant aspects of certain religions, than it is to try to argue with someone's entire belief system and the structure behind it.

For a historical example, take a look at Christianity over the last millenium or so. It used to do many of the same things we're now complaining about Islamic extremists doing, enforcing its dogmas and conformity through violence. We haven't ended that in the western world by removing Christianity, but rather by arguing for ends to immoral conduct in general. Society as a whole found ways to put that violence or antisocial behaviour behind us and most of the Christians in society have found ways to unite modern moral values with their faith.

[Retribution]

My take on this as I have pondered it with other information provided in this thread and others here is as follows:

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan and destabilized it and much of the surrounding area. There were already ages old animosities, but I feel this made things worse. Many of the events that have lead to current events stem from this. When people are in bad situations it provides a ripe ground for the more radical to flourish twisting whatever dogma is present along the way. In this part of the world Islam is the dominant religion so those radicals twisted Islam and thus we have the current issues coming out of that particular set of beliefs. So perhaps it is not so much the religion as the religion is the prevalent one in an area that is ripe for such things.

[Vekseid]

My personal experience has always been that it's easier to argue with the specific unpleasant aspects of certain religions, than it is to try to argue with someone's entire belief system and the structure behind it.

For a historical example, take a look at Christianity over the last millenium or so. It used to do many of the same things we're now complaining about Islamic extremists doing, enforcing its dogmas and conformity through violence. We haven't ended that in the western world by removing Christianity, but rather by arguing for ends to immoral conduct in general. Society as a whole found ways to put that violence or antisocial behaviour behind us and most of the Christians in society have found ways to unite modern moral values with their faith.

By agreeing that the Old Testament is flawed, for the most part. Most Christians balk at the idea that the Hebrews performed human virgin sacrifice, and that it is mentioned and glorified in their Bible. "Oh wait, it's a heave offering - so they 'only' reserved them for the priests to rape." There is no defending that action - one among many indefensible acts - it is simply relegated to the barbarism of the ancient past.

How many Muslims would agree that the Quran is similarly barbaric?

Muhammad may have been a pillar for his time, but today, the world has long since moved on. Today he would be considered a pedophile and a lunatic.

That most if not all ideologies are plagued by barbarism does not justify him. Ideologies themselves need to be relegated to history, acknowledged for the moral poison that each of them are.

They turn good people into monsters.

[DarkAngel111]

I should also note that the Taliban was largely a product of Pakistan; the Taliban was basically a non-factor during the Soviet invasion when the US was pouring money into rebel groups. The Taliban was formed out of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, a fundamentalist political block in Pakistan. When the Taliban first formed they numbered a few hundred... it was when 15,000 students from Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam schools poured into the country that they gained any strength. Through their rise to power in the mid-to-late 90's they were supported almost entirely by Pakistan who wished to install a regime friendly to them.

For anyone living in Pakistan, if they read this they would laugh at your highly silly train of thought that Jamiat-e-ulma-Islam has a radical group that big.

Secondly, Taliban is what they named themselves after the Soviet Invasion, but if you know and remember, Most of Afghanistan fought with US provided weapons against the soviets. They were funding them, Even training camps were formed and back then Talibans were referred to as Jihadis by the US.

The problem is that, these day, it's Muslims who seem to do the most cruel things. Sorry, but it really seems this way...

Are they really? They have been killed by the thousands,
and Let me tell you, If they hadn't fought back like they did, however Unjustified it is and however Wrong I think it is, it would not be dissimilar to the Mass Genocide carried out by hitler on Jews.

For some reason no one here is concerned that Muslim Population would be Wiped clean if they just Stood by and watched.

Now let me give you a example from my Country.

After American government Lost in Afghanistan, and lets not even argue on that they did lose.
They wanted to Invade Pakistan next, The whole Facade that Nukes aren't safe in pakistan was caused for the sole purpose of attacking us. And They would have attacked us too, Had it not been that our Army tested a inter continental missile with carrying capabilities. After that all was peaceful.


you say muslims are seen to be doing the worst things these days, Have you ever Witnessed what is being done TO THEM?



You mentioned People running honest business weren't Harassed, or that you had no Knowledge of it,
Why don't you take a walk down Central London, or down Times Square in London and grab any Muslim shop owner, lets see what he has to say. 90% were harassed.

[Caehlim]

By agreeing that the Old Testament is flawed, for the most part.

I'm not too wild about it myself, given that I've looked through it before and found 29 different places where it calls for my death for various reasons.