WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[wander]

I'll do a brief review of the Custodes codex when I can in the week. I do have the thing though I've been spread thin this weekend, I got the points for units all totalled (I tend to do that and stick post-it notes on the pages to make them visually like previous codexes and so I can clearly see and compare what costs what). I want to read more on the fluff and lore then I'll chat more on the book.

What I can say going in is that the Contemptor-Dread and the Venerable Land Raider both went up in price. Aside from them two the only other ranged anti-tank come from the Salvo Launcher you can put on a Vertus Praetor Jetbike (raising it from 90pts to 105pts). That said you can if wanted put a Salvo Launcher on the whole squad, which would be 315pts for the minimum of three Jetbikes. I find that fairly steep, the Jetbikes are good, though the Contemptor Dread with Kheres Autocannon is still something I really like and is only 197pts.

I also think the Custodian Wardens are more useful than the baseline Custodians, though any way you slice it, this is an elite army best used to mop up chaff as best as possible using ranged attacks before charging into melee to cause the real damage. Each unit should have it's specific use and goal for them to work.
Btw The Castellan Axe is a thing of beauty, doing S8 -2ap d3dmg. The Wardens get 4 attacks each with that, hitting on 2+.

[CopperLily]

I'd like to hope if they accepted your idea and got you to write a full and proper story, that there would be payment at the end of it :)

They will. This is just "If you send stuff to the slushpile now, we'll read it instead of just binning it."

[TheGlyphstone]

For anyone who's interesting in keeping tabs on the upcoming d6-based 40K RPG:

https://mailchi.mp/2293b89450ff/wrath-glory-newsletter-february-2018?e=d4c39ae062

[TheLaughingOne]

For anyone who's interesting in keeping tabs on the upcoming d6-based 40K RPG:

https://mailchi.mp/2293b89450ff/wrath-glory-newsletter-february-2018?e=d4c39ae062

I was rather hesitant on the new rpg stuff.. now im not sure how i feel on it.

Personally i think id rather just stick with the 2ed dark heresy system, or put in the small bit of work to do 40k in the genesys system that fantasy flight just put out...

[wander]

I actually kinda like it. It seems really smooth and easy to pick up and play.

As much as the older system was fun, it was a real bastard for new players to get to grips with and character generation I found to be a real chore. Space Marines had far too many special rules due to their organs and the power descrepancy between classes was too much, most noticeable in Black Crusade. I think we can all agree on these points being the flaws of the original which needed solving.



I've gone and made a Patrol detachment of 1000pts for Pure Custodes. After math-hammering things out, Custodian Wardens are damn scary to face in melee. :)

I'm still reading the fluff, though in general it's interesting and makes up half the codex. The good is when it talks on events that involved the Custodes and going a little deeper into the things we admittedly already knew, though adding a bit more to it. Such as noble families on Terra offering their children to become a Custodes and because the custodian takes a new name up based on myth or history when they are inducted (if they make it through, less than a percentage can get through the ordeal that pushes their mind probably more harrowingly than the genetic biomancy that makes them) despite the noble clans never seeing their child again and not knowing if they made it or not, it's bragging rights that of course the new member of the Custodes of the thousands handed over is obviously thier child, noone elses...

Otherwise, in the 40ish pages of fluff, there's nothing particularly ground-breaking or clarifying about the Custodes, nothing really new is added. Things we already know of are perhaps given a name or a title, though it's surprising how many words there are without actually saying anything.

The art in the book however is amazing. No complaints. I felt at times it'd be nice to have more of it in the codex, though flicking through nearly every page has something and it's actually the perfect amount.

I'm atm digesting over the Strategems, of which there is a ton of them.
Some are super tempting to be regular use ones, fave ones include Inspire Fear (+1 to enemy morale checks in the Morale phase. Throw that on someone after ripping their troops apart with the Vertus jetbike hurricane bolters ), Spark of Divinity is the 1CP 'Deny the Witch' strat, which is super important, Castellan Strike (boosts ap of the axes to -3 for the fight phase).

I partly wanna go wild and having 3CPs burn them all before the game, using 1CP to have some Wardens in deepstrike and then use the other 2CP for 'Victor of the Blood Games' which gives a chosen character a reroll to hit, wound or save each turn, or keep the 2CP back for 'Even in Death' which lets a character when slain make one final shooting action or get one round of fighting in before being removed.
Using that on the Allarus Shield-Cap with Obliteratum+Castellan Axe or the Dawneagle Shield-Cap if they get ganked effectively gives 'em a deadman bomb. That's gonna be infuriating if say an enemy warlord gets in close, happens to slay them and then they face off pretty much any of those two Cap's weapons as a last middle finger.
Also having the 'Auric Shackles' Relic on the Dawneagle Cap, which removes one attack from enemy characters within 6" of them and gives +1D3 VPs for slay the warlord opens up more trolly goodness. 

[TheLaughingOne]

I actually kinda like it. It seems really smooth and easy to pick up and play.

As much as the older system was fun, it was a real bastard for new players to get to grips with and character generation I found to be a real chore. Space Marines had far too many special rules due to their organs and the power descrepancy between classes was too much, most noticeable in Black Crusade. I think we can all agree on these points being the flaws of the original which needed solving.

Well...

Thats kinda the thing. Space marines are suppose to be special, stats and extra rules. Having a space marine with guards men is like having andre the giant join your high school wrestling team. they ARE super human in near all aspects. only book i've seen where a space marine fit with a crew was.. crap.. cant remember it... Atlas Infernal, which was a really awesome book btb. Which the crew included a veteran rogue trader, a high powered psyker, a daemon host, 2 high ranking inquisitors, (one of which equipped with looted Harlequin gear), and a huge number of meat shield Savlar Chemdogs.

How can you really justify putting in a balance system for a game where there is a major and intended unbalance?

[TheGlyphstone]

Well...

Thats kinda the thing. Space marines are suppose to be special, stats and extra rules. Having a space marine with guards men is like having andre the giant join your high school wrestling team. they ARE super human in near all aspects. only book i've seen where a space marine fit with a crew was.. crap.. cant remember it... Atlas Infernal, which was a really awesome book btb. Which the crew included a veteran rogue trader, a high powered psyker, a daemon host, 2 high ranking inquisitors, (one of which equipped with looted Harlequin gear), and a huge number of meat shield Savlar Chemdogs.

How can you really justify putting in a balance system for a game where there is a major and intended unbalance?

That seems to be what the Tier system they're devising is supposed to help with. 'Space Marines will always be better than humans at everything forever' is unnecessarily limiting, and it's not even appropriate to the fiction - an Astartes is peerless at murdering things in the face, but they struggle whenever a situation arises which can't be solved by murdering someone's face. It's simply not part of their training or innate psychology, and the pre-Dark Millenium Imperial solution was simply to not send the Astartes into any situation that didn't capitalize on their area of face-murdering expertise. The fragmented state of the Imperium post-DM is a perfect in-setting justification for making do which whoever is available, instead of whoever is best.

To use the example they cited, a human guardsman is a Tier 1, while a neophyte Space Marine is a Tier 3. An experienced and well-connected Inquisitorial Throne Agent is a Tier 3, capable of contributing to a group's shared success equally with the Astartes, though likely not in the same environment. FFG clumsily tried to solve this problem just by piling more XP on people, which caved in under its own weight - getting unique advantages only available via tier-ascensions could work out better.

[TheLaughingOne]

... i kinda take issue with the marines only good as murder machines. They are warrior monks, paladins, amd you can see it im some of the really good novels, and even in the warhammer 40k space marine game where captain titus was shown as being quite good at social aspects. Some novels we see rogue traders, occasional inquistor, planetary governers, and others having conversations with space marines on the work of old imperial writers, theater, music, and even wine tasting (marine throeing in jokes at the naval captian getting drunk tryi g to keep up with the marine. They are damn rare examples, and it makes me sad because of that.

Part of my objection is making a guard as super bad ass as a space marine strips out part of what makes actual guard badasses. They are normal humans fighting things that take on space marines. They are showing the supreme human spirit even against those odds.

... and i have trouble seeing how giving a guards man a nervous eye twitch, a light and vague connection to the inquisition, and a plasma pistol really places him at the same level as a marine.. especially when you have to spend xp or whstever for those things as opposed to raising stats and skills...

[TheGlyphstone]

It's a vague preview of a system we know nothing about - without knowing how many 'build points' that costs, or what that might unlock, who knows? Maybe skills and talents are locked behind Keywords, and that 'vague Inquisitorial connection' means he has access to a whole new assortment of special stuff.

Characters like Captain Titus and novel protagonists...wouldn't be a Tier 3, which is listed as a Tactical Marine. Ranking Marine Veterans are probably Tier 4 or even 5, and I'd presume whatever Ascension package they buy to elevate them in that way would allow for the 'knowing how social skills and empathy work' that a regular line Marine doesn't have.

It's a bit unfair to want to have it both ways, though. Either a guardsman is badass enough to be able to fight alongside a Space Marine, or at least be useful enough that the Space Marine is willing to hang around with him, or he isn't. If he is, the system has to allow for a way for that to happen, and the least fluff-breaking way to do so is have the human possess things - skills, knowledge, allies, etc. that the Space Marine doesn't, just like how the Space Marine has things the human doesn't. There really isn't any 'major and intended imbalance', it's long canon that an Astartes essentially has anything not related to his designed role hypno-programmed out of him. If he later re-learns things like 'empathy' and 'diplomacy', that's a result of his experiences over time.


EDIT: If you want an example for where this can be done right, look at Shadowrun. Wrath and Glory is already starting to resemble SR with Build Point-based chargen and a d6 dice pool, and it's a very stable system. It doesn't expect a Troll Street Samurai and a Human Face to be equally balanced in combat - the Troll will shrug off hits that turn the human into pink mist, much the way a Space Marine would tank hits capable of killing a regular person. But the Face's devotion to social skills and contacts makes the two of them greater than the sum of their parts. That's what I hope W+G is trying to emulate, because I know it can work.

[Cold Heritage]

Having it both ways is kind of how the fluff for 40K rolls, isn't it? For example, compare the Ultramarines, the Salamanders, and the Lamenters to the Iron Hands, the Flesh Tearers, and the Marines Malevolent. All Loyalist, but I think anyone would be hard-pressed to describe them as the stereotypical Astartes that is barely distinguishable from a servitor.

There are also Matt Ward tier Grey Knights, and then the Grey Knights omnibus tier Grey Knights. Where like, a Grey Knight was killed by people with Bronze Age tier weapons.

[TheGlyphstone]

Having it both ways is kind of how the fluff for 40K rolls, isn't it? For example, compare the Ultramarines, the Salamanders, and the Lamenters to the Iron Hands, the Flesh Tearers, and the Marines Malevolent. All Loyalist, but I think anyone would be hard-pressed to describe them as the stereotypical Astartes that is barely distinguishable from a servitor.

There are also Matt Ward tier Grey Knights, and then the Grey Knights omnibus tier Grey Knights. Where like, a Grey Knight was killed by people with Bronze Age tier weapons.

Sure, 40K fluff is hilariously inconsistent at times. But that's no excuse for settling for it when we can hope for something better.

[wander]

... i kinda take issue with the marines only good as murder machines. They are warrior monks, paladins, amd you can see it im some of the really good novels, and even in the warhammer 40k space marine game where captain titus was shown as being quite good at social aspects. Some novels we see rogue traders, occasional inquistor, planetary governers, and others having conversations with space marines on the work of old imperial writers, theater, music, and even wine tasting (marine throeing in jokes at the naval captian getting drunk tryi g to keep up with the marine. They are damn rare examples, and it makes me sad because of that.

This has been downplayed a lot in more recent lore to the point of now the Custodes codex veers towards stating it is they (as in, the Custodes) which are taught everything in the liberal arts, philosophy, the arts and culture in general as they were built to be companions who could converse with the Emperor on any subject as much as be his bodyguards. In comparison to Astartes, who are sent in purely as soldiers. Of course the exceptions to the rules exist to not generalise the Astartes under one banner, though these days in the lore they would not be sent on a pure diplomatic mission whatsoever.

.. and i have trouble seeing how giving a guards man a nervous eye twitch, a light and vague connection to the inquisition, and a plasma pistol really places him at the same level as a marine.. especially when you have to spend xp or whstever for those things as opposed to raising stats and skills...

It's an RPG, it's not all killing and slaying ala D&D, there will be social aspects too, which the Inquisition link seems to pick up. I expect a system will be in place that adding character flaws to a character may afford them some mechanical bonus to offset it also. This may not always be a combat bonus and may go into social engineering elements or puzzle solving parts of gameplay.

[TheLaughingOne]

Im... actually getting pretty sick and done with this conversation... but screw it.

Your "fresh" tactical marine is with a few exceptions, is usually about 150-200 years old. To be a tactical marine you have to have mastered training as a scout, a devastator, and an assault marine. Looking at about 50 years at least for each one. Exclusions for those that have diff structures like black templar, space wolves, or the like which have specialized training methods.

Marines dont lack empathy, save chapters like carchodons, flesh tearers, and a couple others, and even then they can empathize, but still place the status of their mission over the lives of civilians and others. If you want marines that fully lack empathy, you need a chaos in before space marines. Usually, as even then you cant make a blanket statement that they are all evil insane monsters.

Yeah, captain titus is unlikely to be tier three, as well as many novels. But a majority of novels ive followed you have a standard experienced but not veteran, tactical space marine as protagionist. Which still means they are about 200 years old.

Ive got plenty of othere examples, but now i just dont care enough to keep talking about it.

[wander]

Change of pace, here's my Pure Custodes Patrol Detachment. One option is my anti-mechanised option with the Allarus Terminator Captain, the other is more anti-infantry with the Dawneagle Jetbike Captain (basically the Allarus list trades more lower Str shots to let in a few high Str shots).

Both lists have 13 models for 1000pts, which is pretty okay for Custodes.

The Shield-Captain in either list will either have Superior Creation (5+ FNP) or Impregnable Mind (Deny the Witch once per turn and get +1 to the roll) as their Warlord Trait, depending on what sort of psyker opposition is there.

998pts (Patrol Detachment, 3CP)
HQ;
o Allarus Shield-Captain w/Castellan Axe + misericordia (148) + Obliteratum Relic.
Elites;
o 3x Castellan Axe Wardens (201)
o 3x Castellan Axe Wardens (201)
Troops;
o 3x Custodians, x2 w/spears, x1 w/blade+shield (163)
Fast Attack;
o 3x Vertus Praetors; x2 w/hurricane bolters, x1 w/salvo-launcher (285)

The below option has more shots due to the Hurricane Bolters, however they're only S4 and no ap. The anti-infantry comes mainly in volume of attacks thrown at things and that the Wardens have Castellan Axes which are horrifying in melee due to being S8 -2ap d3 dmg.

The Warden squads are something the above option also has however.
(To reiterate, 3 Wardens going in equals 12 attacks with the Axes, so they're super hot against MEQ squads too).

999pts (Patrol Detachment, 3 CP);
HQ:
o Dawneagle Shield-Captain (Hurricane Bolter jetbike) + misericordia (164)
Elites:
o 3x Castellan Axe Wardens (201)
o 3x Castellan Axe Wardens (201)
Troops:
o 3x Custodians; x2 w/spears, x1 w/blade+shield (163)
Fast Attack:
o 3x Vertus Praetors w/Hurricane Bolters (270)

[HairyHeretic]

Some pics from the latest open day

http://battlebunnies.blogspot.ie/2018/02/weekender-day-2.html

https://recalcitrantdaze.blogspot.ie/2018/02/horus-heresy-necromunda-weekender-2018_4.html

https://recalcitrantdaze.blogspot.ie/2018/02/horus-heresy-necromunda-weekender-2018_22.html

I do like the old RT era land speeder remake.

It's also amusing to see the Squats have returned.

https://youtu.be/Oc0-8BBkkq4

Well, one Squat at any rate.

Also, note the time on the plastic SoBs clock. Subtle hint maybe?

[wander]

Duncan can paint but boy oh boy, he sure can't act! 

Overall, this past weekend has held loads of cool news, the addition of Rogal Dorn, Alpharius (with Alpha Legion Terminators that look super similar to him, of course!) and Constantin Valdor to 30K is super neat with the other stuff.

The Squat Bounty Hunter being called Grendl Grendlsen is pretty funny. I'm glad Geedubs are embracing the memes and pulling back from being super serious. I really liked the new concept art of the different Guild Gangs for Necromunda, they had a real 'Dune' feel to them, mixed with a bit of Guild Ball.

Really need to get Necromunda at some point. This stuff getting unveiled for it, along with the Orlocks, is getting my hype up again for it. :)



In other news, here's a comparison of the 40k Vertus Jetbike (left) to the 30k Agamatus Jetbike (right). I reckon the 30k Jetbike would be neat for a Dawneagle Shield-Captain in 40K, especially if taking the Auric Aquilas Relic (aka The 3++ Jetbike) for them;

[Arkaniel]

Duncan can paint but boy oh boy, he sure can't act! 

Overall, this past weekend has held loads of cool news, the addition of Rogal Dorn, Alpharius (with Alpha Legion Terminators that look super similar to him, of course!) and Constantin Valdor to 30K is super neat with the other stuff.

The Squat Bounty Hunter being called Grendl Grendlsen is pretty funny. I'm glad Geedubs are embracing the memes and pulling back from being super serious. I really liked the new concept art of the different Guild Gangs for Necromunda, they had a real 'Dune' feel to them, mixed with a bit of Guild Ball.

Really need to get Necromunda at some point. This stuff getting unveiled for it, along with the Orlocks, is getting my hype up again for it. :)



In other news, here's a comparison of the 40k Vertus Jetbike (left) to the 30k Agamatus Jetbike (right). I reckon the 30k Jetbike would be neat for a Dawneagle Shield-Captain in 40K, especially if taking the Auric Aquilas Relic (aka The 3++ Jetbike) for them;

Size does matter

[wander]

'Ey, you want the chode of today's tech or this hard to handle lengthy relic... 

For funzys I tried for a competitive battalion detachment for 1,500pts with Pure Custodes, to see what I could get. I did manage to make one and had a bit of choice, so it's possible for a neat force to net them 6CPs if wanted. I may actually work up to getting this force as it matches similarly to my Allarus Captain led Patrol at 1000pts.

Here's what I did;

1,500pts (on the dot!) Battalion Detachment. 6 CPs.

HQs;

o Allarus Shield-Captain with Castellan Axe, Misericordia + Obliteratum Relic (148pts)
o Shield-Captain with Castellan Axe + Misericordia (128pts)

Elites;

o 3x Custodian Wardens w/Castellan Axes + Misericordias (201pts)

Troops;

o 3x Custodian Guard w/Guardian Spears (156)
o 3x Custodian Guard w/Guardian Spears (156)
o 3x Custodian Guard w/Guardian Spears (156)

Fast Attack;

o 3x Vertus Praetors; x2 Hurricane Bolters + x1 salvo launcher. (285)
o 3x Vertus Praetors w/Hurricane Bolters (270)

The Wardens overall are cheaper and objectively tankier than the Allarus Terminators (wardens have 1 less wound though get a 6+FNP, otherwise their Toughness is the same). You pay a premium for the Termies because they can Deep Strike for free, though you can still pay 1CP to have a unit Deep Strike (or 3CP for two) via strategem before the game begins.

It was actually fairly tough to choose between the unit of x3 Wardens or going for a solo Contemptor Dreadnought tbh.
I believe the Wardens are worth their points though and whilst lacking the Toughness of the Dreadnought (Wardens are T5, Dreads are T7), the Wardens do have the 2+/4++ (with 6+ FNP), whilst the Dread only gets 2+/5++ (w/6+ FNP) and gets a degrading statline, so after some focus fire on it, I wonder if it'd be worth it for a solo model.

And yet, you're allowed to use the Deep Strike Strategem to plop the Dread (with it's four S14 punches) within 9" of the enemy as a total distraction carnifex for an uber trolly backline smashing move... 

I honestly need to play a battle with them to get more of a feel for the units though.

[Lustful Bride]

GamesWorkshop is opening up a 40K themed Café in the US apparently.

http://www.dicetowernews.com/a-warhammer-cafe-is-opening-up-in-north-america/49785

[TheGlyphstone]

The Lord Inquisitor is now officially dead. The creator is abandoning it to focus on opening his own animation studio, using the eight-minute prologue trailer of TLI as their proof of concept instead.

[wander]

GamesWorkshop is opening up a 40K themed Café in the US apparently.

http://www.dicetowernews.com/a-warhammer-cafe-is-opening-up-in-north-america/49785

It's already been announced it'll appear in Texas too.

I'm more wanting some extra chains of Warhammer World and Bugman's Bar over here in the homeland. Not getting a train all the way up to Nottingham for them! 



As for Lord Inquisitor, has anyone been watching Helsreach on youtube? It's an animated adaptation of the ADB novel. It's pretty good stuff. I'll link episode 1 here for those who may not have heard about it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D4jr-0_COg

Just a prologue, episodes after this are around 10 minutes long.



Here's the latest in my trying to figure a list for the Custodes, a PL 50 list for my geedub store primarily, whilst also being 1000pts for other games.

Patrol Detachment (50 P, 999pts, 3 CPs)

HQ;
Dawneagle Shield-Captain (9 Power) +salvo-launcher (175pts). Auric Aquilas Relic, Warlord Trait: Superior Creation/Impregnable Mind.

Elites;
3x Wardens (10 Power) > (201pts)

Troops;
3x Custodian Guard (8 Power) > x2 guardian spears, x1 sentinel blade + stormshield (163pts)
3x Custodian Guard (8 Power) > x2 guardian spears, x1 sentinel blade + stormshield (163pts)

Fast Attack;
3x Vertus Praetors (15 Power) > x2 hurricane bolters + misericordia. x1 salvo-launcher + misericordia. (297pts)

The Wardens are kept in reserves and drop in close to ruin T7+ units when ready using 'From Golden Light They Come', the Troop Guard are for basic objective sitting and should be pretty hardy with the option of 3++ atop their usual 2+/4++.
I'd probably then burn my other 2CPs for 'Victor of the Blood Games' for my Dawneagle Captain who has 2+/3++ anyway (and if no psykers are about, I'd take Superior Creation as his warlord trait and get a 5+ FNP on top of that), giving him a free reroll to either a hit, wound or save. That'll basically make him nigh unkillable and with his Jetbike (14" move and auto 6" advance) and 'Inspirational Fighter' reroll 1s aura, despite the small number of the Custodes, they should fare pretty well.

[HairyHeretic]

The Lord Inquisitor is now officially dead. The creator is abandoning it to focus on opening his own animation studio, using the eight-minute prologue trailer of TLI as their proof of concept instead.

That's disappointing. Hopefully it and Death of Hope and the like will spur GW into doing some more stuff of their own. They have some fantastic writers. Partner up with a media studio and get 40k , or 30k for that matter, onto the screen.

[Cold Heritage]

I don't think the Ultramarines film did very well financially.

[HairyHeretic]

Yes, but it's nowhere even close to the quality of those other pieces.

[TheGlyphstone]

That only means GW will learn exactly the wrong lesson. "Animated films don't make money", rather than "bad animated films don't make money".